I actually think 3 Snapcasters is really good for this deck as relies less on grinding than most blue decks because the proactive plan is stronger. Hands with too many Snapcasters with too little interaction or beaters can be crippling, and getting the mana together to make full use of Snapcaster isn't always possible. It's still one of the strongest cards in the deck, but 3 seems like the best spot to me personally so far. In a meta with fewer Robots/Chalices, I'd likely add a fourth back in and cut the third K-Command. (Although that may also turn into a fourth Push or a third Bolt instead.)
I also do not think fulminator is the axis I'd like to attack those decks from. I'd rather dig for and play hyper mana efficient threats and attack their life total while leaving up mana to Reject/Denial/Terminate whatever threats they play.
Yeah, that's how I'm feeling too. I actually really like Blood Moon in Grixis Delver, but of course that's pretty much a nonstarter when we need to repeatedly shock ourselves to outpace big-mana decks. Operating on such a tight mana budget, spending 3 to Stone Rain a land (even with the ability to buy it back) seems prohibitive when I could instead be rocking extra Denials or Rejections. And Snapping those back is much higher value and easier on the mana.
Cavern makes Rejection bad, but I don't think I've seen one of those other than in Elves (no Bant Eldrazi at my LGS), so it's probably not an issue.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
@westcoasthorus Thoughts on Rise // Fall? I do no own any Lily, Last Hopes. Also your findings are very helpful.
Rise//Fall felt just cute to us. My teammate experimented with it more than I did; I went to the Michael Majors 3 Bolt main (now 2 Bolt/1 Terminate) pretty quickly and never looked back. Like I said earlier, my philosophy with Shadow decks is I really really want to lean in on the efficiency of the cards in my deck. I want to force my opponent on the back foot as much as possible, and Rise//Fall is just a way to get more card advantage, which is not what I think the deck actually wants to be doing. Even though it can! Just like Abzan Company decks can also grind, but my philosophy with Company is that it's primarily a combo deck and you should be working towards the combo, not trying to eke out incremental advantage with things like Voice of Resurgence.
And second @bloodyrabbit_01 on Liliana, the Last Hope. She is the Liliana that Grixis Shadow decks want and she is totally worth the investment. If you don't have her in a mirror match you are significantly behind, and as Rabbit also pointed out, Liliana helping clear spirits matters a lot because they can slow us down a ton (I lost in the quarters of a GPT this weekend to an Abzan Souls deck - Spectral Procession and Lingering Souls and Nissa voice of Zendikar and Sorin is really, really annoying, let me tell you).
@westcoasthorus Thoughts on Rise // Fall? I do no own any Lily, Last Hopes. Also your findings are very helpful.
Rise//Fall felt just cute to us. My teammate experimented with it more than I did; I went to the Michael Majors 3 Bolt main (now 2 Bolt/1 Terminate) pretty quickly and never looked back. Like I said earlier, my philosophy with Shadow decks is I really really want to lean in on the efficiency of the cards in my deck. I want to force my opponent on the back foot as much as possible, and Rise//Fall is just a way to get more card advantage, which is not what I think the deck actually wants to be doing. Even though it can! Just like Abzan Company decks can also grind, but my philosophy with Company is that it's primarily a combo deck and you should be working towards the combo, not trying to eke out incremental advantage with things like Voice of Resurgence.
And second @bloodyrabbit_01 on Liliana, the Last Hope. She is the Liliana that Grixis Shadow decks want and she is totally worth the investment. If you don't have her in a mirror match you are significantly behind, and as Rabbit also pointed out, Liliana helping clear spirits matters a lot because they can slow us down a ton (I lost in the quarters of a GPT this weekend to an Abzan Souls deck - Spectral Procession and Lingering Souls and Nissa voice of Zendikar and Sorin is really, really annoying, let me tell you).
Alternatives I was considering for the time being are Electrickery and/or Izzet Staticaster. Yeah, I can see where she helps creature combat too. Your opp wants to trade and you -2/-1 their guy and now blocks look horrible for them.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
You can definitely sub anti-token effects for Liliana like Electrickery or Staticaster or Illness in the Ranks or w/e, but her ability to recur is insane against Jund decks and the mirror generally speaking. You can't substitute the effect, so I'd prioritize getting your hands on some. She's worth it.
Hey all, glad to see this thread picking up steam! I've been noticing a few things in my testing.
-4 color is not great.
-1 Terminate is needed.
-feels like I need a second crypt.
Also, just asking again, if you have any knowledge on matchups, please message me so I can place it into the Primer! Still looking at this weekend to have it live!
Your loyal Beta
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How I like to win games:
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Has anyone been tinkering with any copies of Temur Battle Rage? Token and swarm decks seem to be on the rise to combat DS, and it's a way through chump blockers.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Right now, after the last GPT I was in, I want to fine-tune it a bit more. Big Game Hunter was originally there for the mirror and Eldrazi decks but it just doesn't do enough. My teammate and I have definitely come to the conclusion that Bant Eldrazi is, as far as popular matchups go, our worst one. Our problem is that they attack you from so many different angles and depending on how their draw lines up, you may be ready to fight against a Reality Smasher opener but they end up going Displacer into Drowner of Hope. When I've beaten Bant Eldrazi, it's usually been one of three ways: 1. I got significant hand disruption, usually Thoughtseize into Snap-Thoughtseize, 2. They flooded out, 3. They didn't draw enough lands. So theoretically, it might be right to put Fulminators back in because Bant Eldrazi struggle to deploy all their threats. Illness takes care of Scions with upside across the board for other matchups, but if you mill it, it's gone forever.
At this point, I'm probably cutting the 3rd Spellbomb and Big Game Hunter for two cards. I'm currently looking at a singleton Kozilek's Return for anti-token/affinity potential, and I really want at least one sweeper that is excellent against the battlefield, and then another removal spell for Bant Eldrazi. We're considering Dismember; I kinda like Vendetta, too, but it's bad in the mirror. We're not interested in Ceremonious Rejection because Bant Eldrazi's Caverns are so good.
re: Temur Battle Rage, we've debated trying Invigorating Rampage (1R from Aether Revolt, one target creature gets trample and +4/0, OR up to two target creatures get +2/0 and trample). Haven't tried it, but it's something a bit nicer than a Battle Rage against a deck that has pinpoint removal since it won't fizzle unless they have *two* removal spells.
Invigorating Rampage is a nice tech to test. I don't know if the card is real, but it's worth trying.
What you guys think about the land count? With 4 Serum Visions 4 Thought Scour 4 Street Wraith we can go maybe to 18 lands or do you think it's a little gridy? Maybe cutting a fetch.
Living End. Surgical in the board isn't enough, and you usually have only four Stubborn Denial to prevent the cascade monstruosity. Your best bet, here, is actually discarding Living End itself + extracting the sorcery. Alternatively, you should just use the Surgicals on their Fulminator Mage, trying to create a Snap-Denial wall and keeping always mana up.
Hard Control. UW, Esper, Mardu, Jeskai are all insanely powerful against our gameplan. They can grind way more than us, while having all the tools to survive a quick attack from our side. Definitely the worst match-up, considering how they even get better post-sideboard. Surgical & more counters are our best cards in the 75, and Liliana TLH is also extremely important. Make sure it lands, if you really want to win.
Bant Eldrazi. Seriously. This deck is why I usually play Esper instead of Grixis. Their threats are often off Bolt/Push-range, and Drowner of Hope is such a hassle. Rejections doesn't even help because of Caverns, so you just have to confy in Snapcaster + Seize + a quick clock against them.
Add Merfolk to the bad matchups list.
Eldrazi is hard, but replacing all of your bolts with terminates (MD and SB) helps a significant amount.
Is there any consensus on how many discard spells we should be running maindeck? My current version has 6 (2 IoK/4 TS), and I can't help but wonder if I should be running more.
I didn't list all the match-ups, just the most common I face. Anyway, Merfolks is by no means a bad match-up. If I remember correctly, you (Spooly) are playing Mana Leaks instead of Inquisitions, so maybe that's why you faced some issues, dunno. But my overall rating against them is very good: having 7-8 spot removals maindeck + 2 Kolaghan's Command + 4 Snapcasters + additional removal in the sideboard + 6-7 discard spells is actually insanely powerful against monoCreaturesDeck, which Merfolks is. Their only way to generate CA is Adept, and I never felt Spreading Seas like an enormous problem (I'm high on 6 duals, anyway).
Having Mana Leak instead of IoK does hurt the merfolk matchup, but I don't think having 2 more discard spells would help that much. The big problems I've found in the matchup are 1) you don't block well because of islandwalk, and 2) Chalice. If you have a pile of discard + early shadow draw, sometimes you can pull it off. But sometimes they just chump a couple times while they set up for an unblockable alpha strike.
Against Bant Eldrazi, cutting Bolts is a suicide. You NEED to dispose of Displacer, and also hitting Spawner or a dork is just fine. Kommands are much more dead in the match-up, usually, and, RIP or not from the sb, Denial isn't impressive against them.
Terminate hits all of the things that Bolt hits vs. eldrazi, plus TKS, Smasher, and Drowner. I don't understand this criticism.
I have won too many games I had no business winning with Temur Battle Rage, by just attacking into a board with an 11/11 death shadow, to not run 1 in the main and 1 in the side. Some might argue it is a win more, but with 4 snap casters and a cheap spell, I think it is too good to not run with such a potentially huge creature that can be crump blocked. This is of course all the more pressing if you are holding up a stubborn denial.
I would also like to hear more about your experiences with Ashiok. He/She has always been a pet card of mine, but I just don't see how he/she would improve any matchups with this deck.
That new guy is intersting, but I don't think he shakes a stick at any of our current threats. Also, in regard to the discussion of merfolk, I'm on a pretty standard list, and I've been crushing them. The deck I'm having trouble with is bant eldrazi and eldrazi taxes.
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How I like to win games:
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
played a Friday afternoon Magic today, first time playing the deck.
Round 1, I get dumpstered by Bant Eldrazi, this match up feels horrible for our deck.
0-1.
Round 2 bye.
1-1
Round 3 I play against Abzan, game 1 he gets stuck on 3 lands with double rhino in hand, Game 2 I mull to 5 and put up a good fight but couldn't get there. Game 3 I mull to 6 and didn't really draw into anything.
1-2.
Round 4 I get paired against burn, who I know isn't very good and I know gets tilted playing against any version of Death's Shadow. Game 1 was pretty much me killing him the turn before he would have killed me. Game 2 I beleive the play i took was fetching/shocking to get an extra 3 damage in with a shadow, in which he tried to helix me, then I cast a snapcaster to flash back a stubborn denial I kill him with a bolt
2-2
Round 5 I get paired against some kid playing a pretty jank BW midrange/control deck. Game 1 I dumpster him. game 2 was close but I was able to keep him on the defensive and then killed him at 2.
It changes, actually. At least in my experience, Inquisitions are extremely good against them, being able to prevent Seas and Claims to land expecially post-side, and to rip off their hand Silvergil Adept. Having AT LEAST six discard spell is my best advice for the match-up, because they are THAT good (even if in late they become dead draws, you really care the most about early game versus Merfolks). But then: 1) We don't block very well, true. Same issue for them: want to chumpblock my 7/7 Shadow? Fine, you're actually out of threats. Because the Lords usually get in the grave as soon as they land. 2) Very very few lists of Merfolks run Chalice. Even then, you've got multiple discards + multiple Kommand, so you can still handle them well. They're annoying, of course, but I don't see how they can land it consistently against us.
It's a difference of two cards. It matters, but the impact is fairly small in a matchup like this that doesn't go long. Every merfolk list I've played against has had chalice, but I don't pretend that's representative of merfolk lists everywhere.
Terminate hits all of the things that Bolt hits vs. eldrazi, plus TKS, Smasher, and Drowner. I don't understand this criticism.
Terminate enters from the board because it hits Smasher and Drowner. Stop. You don't want to waste them on anything else (maybe TKSeer if you don't have a Push available). You need LOTS of removals, because every single threat from their side is actually letal. Even a simple Skyspawner, considering how we lack evasive blockers. Kolaghan's Command is extremely bad against Bant Eldrazi, and I don't really understand why you would just swap Bolts for Terminates. Even Denials aren't the best, even though they are sometimes useful to prevent a RIP.
My point was to MD those Terminates. Improve game 1 and you'll do a lot to improve the matchup. I'm not talking about SBing bolts out. I'm saying don't put them in your 75.
I actually think 3 Snapcasters is really good for this deck as relies less on grinding than most blue decks because the proactive plan is stronger. Hands with too many Snapcasters with too little interaction or beaters can be crippling, and getting the mana together to make full use of Snapcaster isn't always possible. It's still one of the strongest cards in the deck, but 3 seems like the best spot to me personally so far. In a meta with fewer Robots/Chalices, I'd likely add a fourth back in and cut the third K-Command. (Although that may also turn into a fourth Push or a third Bolt instead.)
Yeah, that's how I'm feeling too. I actually really like Blood Moon in Grixis Delver, but of course that's pretty much a nonstarter when we need to repeatedly shock ourselves to outpace big-mana decks. Operating on such a tight mana budget, spending 3 to Stone Rain a land (even with the ability to buy it back) seems prohibitive when I could instead be rocking extra Denials or Rejections. And Snapping those back is much higher value and easier on the mana.
Cavern makes Rejection bad, but I don't think I've seen one of those other than in Elves (no Bant Eldrazi at my LGS), so it's probably not an issue.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Rise//Fall felt just cute to us. My teammate experimented with it more than I did; I went to the Michael Majors 3 Bolt main (now 2 Bolt/1 Terminate) pretty quickly and never looked back. Like I said earlier, my philosophy with Shadow decks is I really really want to lean in on the efficiency of the cards in my deck. I want to force my opponent on the back foot as much as possible, and Rise//Fall is just a way to get more card advantage, which is not what I think the deck actually wants to be doing. Even though it can! Just like Abzan Company decks can also grind, but my philosophy with Company is that it's primarily a combo deck and you should be working towards the combo, not trying to eke out incremental advantage with things like Voice of Resurgence.
And second @bloodyrabbit_01 on Liliana, the Last Hope. She is the Liliana that Grixis Shadow decks want and she is totally worth the investment. If you don't have her in a mirror match you are significantly behind, and as Rabbit also pointed out, Liliana helping clear spirits matters a lot because they can slow us down a ton (I lost in the quarters of a GPT this weekend to an Abzan Souls deck - Spectral Procession and Lingering Souls and Nissa voice of Zendikar and Sorin is really, really annoying, let me tell you).
Alternatives I was considering for the time being are Electrickery and/or Izzet Staticaster. Yeah, I can see where she helps creature combat too. Your opp wants to trade and you -2/-1 their guy and now blocks look horrible for them.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
-4 color is not great.
-1 Terminate is needed.
-feels like I need a second crypt.
Also, just asking again, if you have any knowledge on matchups, please message me so I can place it into the Primer! Still looking at this weekend to have it live!
Your loyal Beta
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Legacy:
Burn
B/R Reanimator (slowly building
EDH:
Sedris Control/Reanimation
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
My current list is very stock:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Terminate
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Thought Scour
4 Fatal Push
4 Serum Visions
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Blood Crypt
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Terminate
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Collective Brutality
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Engineered Explosives
Right now, after the last GPT I was in, I want to fine-tune it a bit more. Big Game Hunter was originally there for the mirror and Eldrazi decks but it just doesn't do enough. My teammate and I have definitely come to the conclusion that Bant Eldrazi is, as far as popular matchups go, our worst one. Our problem is that they attack you from so many different angles and depending on how their draw lines up, you may be ready to fight against a Reality Smasher opener but they end up going Displacer into Drowner of Hope. When I've beaten Bant Eldrazi, it's usually been one of three ways: 1. I got significant hand disruption, usually Thoughtseize into Snap-Thoughtseize, 2. They flooded out, 3. They didn't draw enough lands. So theoretically, it might be right to put Fulminators back in because Bant Eldrazi struggle to deploy all their threats. Illness takes care of Scions with upside across the board for other matchups, but if you mill it, it's gone forever.
At this point, I'm probably cutting the 3rd Spellbomb and Big Game Hunter for two cards. I'm currently looking at a singleton Kozilek's Return for anti-token/affinity potential, and I really want at least one sweeper that is excellent against the battlefield, and then another removal spell for Bant Eldrazi. We're considering Dismember; I kinda like Vendetta, too, but it's bad in the mirror. We're not interested in Ceremonious Rejection because Bant Eldrazi's Caverns are so good.
re: Temur Battle Rage, we've debated trying Invigorating Rampage (1R from Aether Revolt, one target creature gets trample and +4/0, OR up to two target creatures get +2/0 and trample). Haven't tried it, but it's something a bit nicer than a Battle Rage against a deck that has pinpoint removal since it won't fizzle unless they have *two* removal spells.
edit: forgot KCommand from the main
What you guys think about the land count? With 4 Serum Visions 4 Thought Scour 4 Street Wraith we can go maybe to 18 lands or do you think it's a little gridy? Maybe cutting a fetch.
Add Merfolk to the bad matchups list.
Eldrazi is hard, but replacing all of your bolts with terminates (MD and SB) helps a significant amount.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Having Mana Leak instead of IoK does hurt the merfolk matchup, but I don't think having 2 more discard spells would help that much. The big problems I've found in the matchup are 1) you don't block well because of islandwalk, and 2) Chalice. If you have a pile of discard + early shadow draw, sometimes you can pull it off. But sometimes they just chump a couple times while they set up for an unblockable alpha strike.
Terminate hits all of the things that Bolt hits vs. eldrazi, plus TKS, Smasher, and Drowner. I don't understand this criticism.
I would also like to hear more about your experiences with Ashiok. He/She has always been a pet card of mine, but I just don't see how he/she would improve any matchups with this deck.
Any thoughts on this new card for the deck?
UBR Grixis Shadow
URG Amulet Titan
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Legacy:
Burn
B/R Reanimator (slowly building
EDH:
Sedris Control/Reanimation
Round 1, I get dumpstered by Bant Eldrazi, this match up feels horrible for our deck.
0-1.
Round 2 bye.
1-1
Round 3 I play against Abzan, game 1 he gets stuck on 3 lands with double rhino in hand, Game 2 I mull to 5 and put up a good fight but couldn't get there. Game 3 I mull to 6 and didn't really draw into anything.
1-2.
Round 4 I get paired against burn, who I know isn't very good and I know gets tilted playing against any version of Death's Shadow. Game 1 was pretty much me killing him the turn before he would have killed me. Game 2 I beleive the play i took was fetching/shocking to get an extra 3 damage in with a shadow, in which he tried to helix me, then I cast a snapcaster to flash back a stubborn denial I kill him with a bolt
2-2
Round 5 I get paired against some kid playing a pretty jank BW midrange/control deck. Game 1 I dumpster him. game 2 was close but I was able to keep him on the defensive and then killed him at 2.
3-2
It's a difference of two cards. It matters, but the impact is fairly small in a matchup like this that doesn't go long. Every merfolk list I've played against has had chalice, but I don't pretend that's representative of merfolk lists everywhere.
My point was to MD those Terminates. Improve game 1 and you'll do a lot to improve the matchup. I'm not talking about SBing bolts out. I'm saying don't put them in your 75.