I've heard talk of doing the unthinkable and replacing Lightning Bolt with 3 ofRise // Fall,
I've been testing it out and it's been pretty solid. Snap Bolt Snap is still a great play and I'd like a single bolt somewhere in the main but having 3 more ways to get back Shadows along with other creatures, unsummoning a blocker feels great. Also, using hymn mode after a TS or IoK feels amazing. With this I no longer feel the need for the white splash,
Based on my initial tests, I'm liking the UBr deck by Ryan Overturf. It has more counter-spells than other versions of Grixis Death's Shadow that I've seen. It allows Death's Shadow to grow to a comfortable size, while keeping your opponent from outright killing you.
I've heard talk of doing the unthinkable and replacing Lightning Bolt with 3 ofRise // Fall,
I've been testing it out and it's been pretty solid. Snap Bolt Snap is still a great play and I'd like a single bolt somewhere in the main but having 3 more ways to get back Shadows along with other creatures, unsummoning a blocker feels great. Also, using hymn mode after a TS or IoK feels amazing. With this I no longer feel the need for the white splash,
That was my initial thought as well. This deck looks at their hand so much you would think that Fall would favor you greatly and it is worth testing out for sure. The huge downside you will run into however is "nonland" making it feel weak if you don't get two cards for two mana. The Rise portion at times will also be problematic because it requires two targets. You may want to bounce their dork early but you don't have a creature in the yard... Like someone else mentioned earlier the card is cute. I am still running it as a one of still so it will need more testing. I implore you to try it out and report your findings.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Hello all, just an update on the Primer. There was some confusion and some late responses, prohibiting us from getting it uploaded. It should be live today or tomorrow.
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How I like to win games:
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Went 4-0 last night with my version of Grixis Shadow. Beat Jund, Elves, and Burn twice. Burn is by far the worst matchup for my deck so I probably got lucky winning twice in one night. Per usual, here is the decklist that I brought to the party:
Only changes I made was -1 Ceremonious Rejection and +1 Collective Brutality in the sideboard to help out with the Burn matchup since it seems to be more prevalent at my LGS.
Mana Leak has been a house in game 1. I have not missed the 2 for 2 swap of IoK one bit. It works out so that Stubborn Denial is usually online by the time Mana Leak loses its value. Testing has not been extensive, but an early game catch all is money to buy us time to get a threat on board.
Rise//Fall is very medium in my experience. If it could hit lands in discard mode I'd be much more interested, but the fact that it can't makes it pretty poor against large swathes of the metagame. Tron, Valakut, etc. And this also makes it pretty risky to cast early against many decks. Plus, it weirdly is anti-synergistic with 1 mana discard spells. When you IoK or Thoughtseize on turn 1, their hand has a HIGHER density of lands on turn 2.
I very much disagree with the Abzan & Valakut match-up percentages. Abzan feels like one of our worst match-up, and multiple Lingering Souls from their side are extremely annoying. Against Valakut I have yet to concede a single game.
Gifts Storm is almost like a bye, I don't really see how it can be considered unfavorable. Same about Grishoalbrand and every other similar combo deck. On the other side, we're a dog against Jeskai, as much as against any other UWx Control.
With one exception: While Abzan feels bad, it doesn't feel as bad to me as BloodyRabbit suggests, but still bad. But otherwise, +1.
I very much disagree with the Abzan & Valakut match-up percentages. Abzan feels like one of our worst match-up, and multiple Lingering Souls from their side are extremely annoying. Against Valakut I have yet to concede a single game.
Gifts Storm is almost like a bye, I don't really see how it can be considered unfavorable. Same about Grishoalbrand and every other similar combo deck. On the other side, we're a dog against Jeskai, as much as against any other UWx Control.
With one exception: While Abzan feels bad, it doesn't feel as bad to me as BloodyRabbit suggests, but still bad. But otherwise, +1.
OK guys, we will look into. Sorry to let y'all down
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How I like to win games:
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Don't worry about it! No matter who built the primer, they would get *something* wrong. No single person's experience is enough to know everything about the deck. The trick is synthesizing our experience through our discussion.
Okie dokie. I'll review again with DaveJacinto when I hopefully get a chance tonight. So, we think Grixis Shadow is a tempo deck that can shift and become a grindy midrange deck. I'll test Valakut and Abzan more extensively.
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How I like to win games:
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Gifts Storm is almost like a bye, I don't really see how it can be considered unfavorable. Same about Grishoalbrand and every other similar combo deck. On the other side, we're a dog against Jeskai, as much as against any other UWx Control.
A friend of mine plays Gifts Storm and we ran several games back to back to back. His list runs 2 main deck copies of Empty the Warrens, and sometimes 6-8 goblin tokens on an early turn are enough to get there. They have chump blockers for days while chipping in for damage on a go-wide strategy. Very difficult with all the damage I do to myself. The games felt very lopsided, in that if he drew/cast Empty, I felt like I couldn't win. But if he didn't, I felt like I couldn't lose.
Gifts Storm is almost like a bye, I don't really see how it can be considered unfavorable. Same about Grishoalbrand and every other similar combo deck. On the other side, we're a dog against Jeskai, as much as against any other UWx Control.
A friend of mine plays Gifts Storm and we ran several games back to back to back. His list runs 2 main deck copies of Empty the Warrens, and sometimes 6-8 goblin tokens on an early turn are enough to get there. They have chump blockers for days while chipping in for damage on a go-wide strategy. Very difficult with all the damage I do to myself. The games felt very lopsided, in that if he drew/cast Empty, I felt like I couldn't win. But if he didn't, I felt like I couldn't lose.
Still though, you have the ability to force spike a gifts ungiven of them. Its a good matchup for sure. When you are on ferocious, its too easy.
Problem is several storm lists i saw on 5-0 Modo results started running leylines, so you have to be careful about that.
That's just it though, if they cast Empty the Warrens, it doesn't matter if you counter it because the Storm copies still happen. And because this deck struggles to attack through chump blockers and struggles with wide attackers, that one card makes or breaks the matchup. If they happen to draw it, or Past in Flames it, or whatever, it's extremely hard to deal with. Plus, the deck only runs what... 2 main deck counterspells? Another 2-3 in the side? I think that in order to win this matchup we need to kill them before they cast Empty, that's about it. If they don't cast Empty, it's an easy win, even with Leylines.
First, the primer looks really good. props to the folks who made it (buwalda/davejacinto? sorry if I missed everyone) and it really is great to have this up and going for a rising deck like Grixis Shadow. And as I said, there's no need to be sorry on anything - as this is a new deck we are trying to figure things out/other decks are going to be trying to figure us out, so I'd imagine this is going to be a collaborative effort to determine what works best and what doesn't.
I agree with most of the good points made in the primer. I did have some comments for consideration:
*Ashiok - I'm unclear on why this is good against Esper Draw-Go. Is the plan to mill them out or ult them into a helpless boardstate? They barely play creatures as far as I can tell
*Graveyard Hate - Good call on Rakdos Charm - I'll have to try it. I do like that spellbomb only requires an upfront mana investment, and I really value mana efficiency in this deck, but it is snapcaster-able and doubles as artifact and kiki/copycast hate.
*Graveyard Hate - Would move Surgical Extraction here
*Extra Interaction - Would at least put Disdainful Stroke here in case titanshift rises in popularity. Does also hit some other spells that Rejection does not hit (Scapeshift, Primeval Titan, Ad Nauseum, Worship? actually the list is not that long..). Downside of course is that you'll miss on everything from Affinity/Lantern/KCI, for example
*Removal - May want to mention Flaying Tendrils, as I think that is better if you are splashing white and care about the exile effect (double red is likely to be very hard for Anger). Would also mention Big Game Hunter as it has positive synergies with Last Hope and KCommand
*Artifact Hate - I think Vandalblast is way too expensive/too slow. We rarely get to 5 mana and in matchups where we'd want Vandalblast (affinity, lantern) turn 5 is likely far too late. Shattering Spree does not work well either with the red mana. I would mention By Force, the RX - destroy X artifact sorcery from Amonkhet
*Matchups - this is just my personal experience and I could certainly be misplaying some matchups. That said, some matchups in the primer that stands out for me:
-Affinity - seems somewhat miserable to me pre-board. I only run 2 bolts and 3 pushes mainboard which may be the culprit, but I get routinely etched champion'd/plating-onto-flyers'd. Postboard games feel much better and we should be favored. I am 2-9 vs. affinity so far though:(
-Abzan - definitely seems unfavorable. Not sure how we can fix this other than to bring in all the grind cards like painful truths/Last Hope and staticaster
-Valakut - I've found this favorable even without fulminators in the sideboard. we have a similar clock plus discard/counters for their payoffs
-Dredge - definitely feels miserable, especially without Battle Rage. I don't feel like we have enough graveyard hate currently to even be favored postboard (I play 1 anger and 2 spellbombs). If dredge keeps trending up (DSJ/storm/KCI are trending up as well) I may consider Leylines of the Void
-Elves - definitely miserable. Hard to do anything about it without meaningfully changing your SB
-Gifts Storm/Griselbrand/Spell based combo - I've felt very good in these matchups, as clock+disruption is the bane to these guys' existences. One of the main ways Storm wins vs. us is through a quick, medium size Empty the Warrens, which can be done even without an enabling creature. It can be correct to counter the second/third ritual even on an innocent looking board if you got a good clock going
I find it very inapropriate and wrong calling Tarfire and Mishra's Bauble as being "nonsense cards" in the very first few lines of the primer...
Honestly do you know what these cards do to DSJ? Did you ever play it? I highly recommend rephrasing that statement because it just reflects a wrong pricture of the current most present deck in modern.
For clarification: Tarfire helps for delirium and pumps goyfs, it is needed in order to reach consistancy and makes traverse moreso a broken card in that sense, because we can bring it online so fast. Combined with a goyf hit, you don't loose a damage from Tarfire being played over bolt, since it grows goyf more than bolt alone.
Bauble is also incredible in DSJ, effectively increasing consistancy with your draws and the information granted when using bauble on the opponent or yourself in order to turn it into a suito srew with a fetchland. But the most important part is that it thins the deck out in being a free cantrip, which is generally always very powerful.
I guess what you meant was that a card like Tarfire is on its own suboptimal, but especially in this deck those cards do fulfill their jobs, which is nowhere near "nonsense" to me.
Its ok to compare and contrast Grixis to DSJ, but it should not be this way honestly.
I don't know if I'm just hitting bad variance on my matchups, but MTGO has been ridiculously hostile the last few days. Over like 7 leagues, literally half of my matches have been either UW control, Burn, or Dredge.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I find it very inapropriate and wrong calling Tarfire and Mishra's Bauble as being "nonsense cards" in the very first few lines of the primer...
Honestly do you know what these cards do to DSJ? Did you ever play it? I highly recommend rephrasing that statement because it just reflects a wrong pricture of the current most present deck in modern.
For clarification: Tarfire helps for delirium and pumps goyfs, it is needed in order to reach consistancy and makes traverse moreso a broken card in that sense, because we can bring it online so fast. Combined with a goyf hit, you don't loose a damage from Tarfire being played over bolt, since it grows goyf more than bolt alone.
Bauble is also incredible in DSJ, effectively increasing consistancy with your draws and the information granted when using bauble on the opponent or yourself in order to turn it into a suito srew with a fetchland. But the most important part is that it thins the deck out in being a free cantrip, which is generally always very powerful.
I guess what you meant was that a card like Tarfire is on its own suboptimal, but especially in this deck those cards do fulfill their jobs, which is nowhere near "nonsense" to me.
Its ok to compare and contrast Grixis to DSJ, but it should not be this way honestly.
You took it a bit too personal. That sentence wasn't to demean the DSJ deck which we reference a lot on the Primer itself for being the Original deck from which this one evolved from. Also I tried to be sure that people would read your primer and they would learn from what's going on the thread because it's important for a Grixis Death's Shadow player as well.
The point of the sentence was one, which I thought was clear when I wrote it, that DSJ plays a couple of cards that on their own aren't that good (hence nonsensical... no other deck plays them) for synergistic reasons. I love the fact that the deck transforms nonsense cards in great additions to the deck.
I'm a sucker for synergy... One of the decks I enjoyed playing the most was Abzan Aristocrats in T2 and you can't go as nonsense as that. If it would please the general public I don't really mind rephrasing that sentence at all.
Maybe I took it too personal, you could be are right. Didn't want to be mean or anything, but I admit I was a bit annoyed when I read it. I still think nonsense is not the appropriate formulation for those cards. People new to the primer or new to the forum or magic even might misunderstand this, thats why I mentioned it (after all those cards do very well have a sense and application in the deck). I would write something like suboptimal for example.
*Ashiok - I'm unclear on why this is good against Esper Draw-Go. Is the plan to mill them out or ult them into a helpless boardstate? They barely play creatures as far as I can tell
*Graveyard Hate - Good call on Rakdos Charm - I'll have to try it. I do like that spellbomb only requires an upfront mana investment, and I really value mana efficiency in this deck, but it is snapcaster-able and doubles as artifact and kiki/copycast hate.
*Graveyard Hate - Would move Surgical Extraction here
*Extra Interaction - Would at least put Disdainful Stroke here in case titanshift rises in popularity. Does also hit some other spells that Rejection does not hit (Scapeshift, Primeval Titan, Ad Nauseum, Worship? actually the list is not that long..). Downside of course is that you'll miss on everything from Affinity/Lantern/KCI, for example
*Removal - May want to mention Flaying Tendrils, as I think that is better if you are splashing white and care about the exile effect (double red is likely to be very hard for Anger). Would also mention Big Game Hunter as it has positive synergies with Last Hope and KCommand
We will include these other options, good call on them. Ashiok is good against Esper on the mill plan, like you were thinking. Commonly they can't remove it, so if you can sneak it under counters, it seems invincible.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How I like to win games:
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Legacy:
Burn
B/R Reanimator (slowly building
EDH:
Sedris Control/Reanimation
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I've been testing it out and it's been pretty solid. Snap Bolt Snap is still a great play and I'd like a single bolt somewhere in the main but having 3 more ways to get back Shadows along with other creatures, unsummoning a blocker feels great. Also, using hymn mode after a TS or IoK feels amazing. With this I no longer feel the need for the white splash,
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
CREATURES (15)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Fatal Push
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
4 Serum Visions
4 Spell Snare
1 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
4 Thoughtseize
3 Countersquall
1 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Spell Pierce
2 Magma Spray
1 Dispel
3 Terminate
2 Mana Leak
That was my initial thought as well. This deck looks at their hand so much you would think that Fall would favor you greatly and it is worth testing out for sure. The huge downside you will run into however is "nonland" making it feel weak if you don't get two cards for two mana. The Rise portion at times will also be problematic because it requires two targets. You may want to bounce their dork early but you don't have a creature in the yard... Like someone else mentioned earlier the card is cute. I am still running it as a one of still so it will need more testing. I implore you to try it out and report your findings.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Legacy:
Burn
B/R Reanimator (slowly building
EDH:
Sedris Control/Reanimation
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
Instants (16)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
2 Stubborn Denial
3 Fatal Push
1 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Land (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Fatal Push
1 Terminate
2 Collective Brutality
1 Fulminator Mage
Only changes I made was -1 Ceremonious Rejection and +1 Collective Brutality in the sideboard to help out with the Burn matchup since it seems to be more prevalent at my LGS.
re buen: it really feels like 50/50 with very tight play/sequencing and mulliganing to me. really need an early threat plus denial/iok.
With one exception: While Abzan feels bad, it doesn't feel as bad to me as BloodyRabbit suggests, but still bad. But otherwise, +1.
OK guys, we will look into. Sorry to let y'all down
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Legacy:
Burn
B/R Reanimator (slowly building
EDH:
Sedris Control/Reanimation
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Legacy:
Burn
B/R Reanimator (slowly building
EDH:
Sedris Control/Reanimation
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
A friend of mine plays Gifts Storm and we ran several games back to back to back. His list runs 2 main deck copies of Empty the Warrens, and sometimes 6-8 goblin tokens on an early turn are enough to get there. They have chump blockers for days while chipping in for damage on a go-wide strategy. Very difficult with all the damage I do to myself. The games felt very lopsided, in that if he drew/cast Empty, I felt like I couldn't win. But if he didn't, I felt like I couldn't lose.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
That's just it though, if they cast Empty the Warrens, it doesn't matter if you counter it because the Storm copies still happen. And because this deck struggles to attack through chump blockers and struggles with wide attackers, that one card makes or breaks the matchup. If they happen to draw it, or Past in Flames it, or whatever, it's extremely hard to deal with. Plus, the deck only runs what... 2 main deck counterspells? Another 2-3 in the side? I think that in order to win this matchup we need to kill them before they cast Empty, that's about it. If they don't cast Empty, it's an easy win, even with Leylines.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I agree with most of the good points made in the primer. I did have some comments for consideration:
*Ashiok - I'm unclear on why this is good against Esper Draw-Go. Is the plan to mill them out or ult them into a helpless boardstate? They barely play creatures as far as I can tell
*Graveyard Hate - Good call on Rakdos Charm - I'll have to try it. I do like that spellbomb only requires an upfront mana investment, and I really value mana efficiency in this deck, but it is snapcaster-able and doubles as artifact and kiki/copycast hate.
*Graveyard Hate - Would move Surgical Extraction here
*Extra Interaction - Would at least put Disdainful Stroke here in case titanshift rises in popularity. Does also hit some other spells that Rejection does not hit (Scapeshift, Primeval Titan, Ad Nauseum, Worship? actually the list is not that long..). Downside of course is that you'll miss on everything from Affinity/Lantern/KCI, for example
*Removal - May want to mention Flaying Tendrils, as I think that is better if you are splashing white and care about the exile effect (double red is likely to be very hard for Anger). Would also mention Big Game Hunter as it has positive synergies with Last Hope and KCommand
*Artifact Hate - I think Vandalblast is way too expensive/too slow. We rarely get to 5 mana and in matchups where we'd want Vandalblast (affinity, lantern) turn 5 is likely far too late. Shattering Spree does not work well either with the red mana. I would mention By Force, the RX - destroy X artifact sorcery from Amonkhet
*Matchups - this is just my personal experience and I could certainly be misplaying some matchups. That said, some matchups in the primer that stands out for me:
-Affinity - seems somewhat miserable to me pre-board. I only run 2 bolts and 3 pushes mainboard which may be the culprit, but I get routinely etched champion'd/plating-onto-flyers'd. Postboard games feel much better and we should be favored. I am 2-9 vs. affinity so far though:(
-Abzan - definitely seems unfavorable. Not sure how we can fix this other than to bring in all the grind cards like painful truths/Last Hope and staticaster
-Valakut - I've found this favorable even without fulminators in the sideboard. we have a similar clock plus discard/counters for their payoffs
-Dredge - definitely feels miserable, especially without Battle Rage. I don't feel like we have enough graveyard hate currently to even be favored postboard (I play 1 anger and 2 spellbombs). If dredge keeps trending up (DSJ/storm/KCI are trending up as well) I may consider Leylines of the Void
-Elves - definitely miserable. Hard to do anything about it without meaningfully changing your SB
-Gifts Storm/Griselbrand/Spell based combo - I've felt very good in these matchups, as clock+disruption is the bane to these guys' existences. One of the main ways Storm wins vs. us is through a quick, medium size Empty the Warrens, which can be done even without an enabling creature. It can be correct to counter the second/third ritual even on an innocent looking board if you got a good clock going
Honestly do you know what these cards do to DSJ? Did you ever play it? I highly recommend rephrasing that statement because it just reflects a wrong pricture of the current most present deck in modern.
For clarification: Tarfire helps for delirium and pumps goyfs, it is needed in order to reach consistancy and makes traverse moreso a broken card in that sense, because we can bring it online so fast. Combined with a goyf hit, you don't loose a damage from Tarfire being played over bolt, since it grows goyf more than bolt alone.
Bauble is also incredible in DSJ, effectively increasing consistancy with your draws and the information granted when using bauble on the opponent or yourself in order to turn it into a suito srew with a fetchland. But the most important part is that it thins the deck out in being a free cantrip, which is generally always very powerful.
I guess what you meant was that a card like Tarfire is on its own suboptimal, but especially in this deck those cards do fulfill their jobs, which is nowhere near "nonsense" to me.
Its ok to compare and contrast Grixis to DSJ, but it should not be this way honestly.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Maybe I took it too personal, you could be are right. Didn't want to be mean or anything, but I admit I was a bit annoyed when I read it. I still think nonsense is not the appropriate formulation for those cards. People new to the primer or new to the forum or magic even might misunderstand this, thats why I mentioned it (after all those cards do very well have a sense and application in the deck). I would write something like suboptimal for example.
We will include these other options, good call on them. Ashiok is good against Esper on the mill plan, like you were thinking. Commonly they can't remove it, so if you can sneak it under counters, it seems invincible.
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Legacy:
Burn
B/R Reanimator (slowly building
EDH:
Sedris Control/Reanimation