I was trying to compare Modern to Extended, not Legacy.
The original extended, not double standard which we have now. It seemed like a beast unto itself, unlike Modern or Legacy and I wish it could exist as well, in the form of Overextended. (Mercadian Masques or Invasion forward).
I've long wished that Modern had started with Mercadian Masques. Even ignoring the fact I think it'd add some much-needed police cards to the format (the several "free" counterspells in the Masques block and Rishadan Port), there's just too many interesting cards from Masques through Scourge to have them excluded because they look different.
For the most part, I'm not going to argue with the rest of your post. But this? Cards that pretend to be good? Narrow application? That is what makes these cards so wonderful and makes this game so amazing.
Lion's Eye Diamond, for the longest time, was a dollar rare. Now look at it.
It's WHY I love Legacy so much because you can essentially take crap cards in a vacuum and make them amazing.
And let's be honest. A lot of cards are crap in a vacuum.
Delver is crap in a vacuum. Without a deck filled with instants and sorceries, he's a 1/1 for 1. In fact, without Ponder and other deck manipulation, he's still a crap card. Why is it he's not a force in Modern? Because you have nothing in the format that made him good.
So let's be fair here. I could apply your argument to a lot of cards that you would call good. Delver is one of the prime examples of this.
The larger the card pool, the better those fringe cards become.
As for your take on Delver, the reason Delver is so good in Legacy, but no so much in Modern. Deck manipulation. Legacy has tons of deck manipulation where Wotc has limited the deck manipulation in Modern.
The larger the card pool, the better those fringe cards become.
As for your take on Delver, the reason Delver is so good in Legacy, but no so much in Modern. Deck manipulation. Legacy has tons of deck manipulation where Wotc has limited the deck manipulation in Modern.
That was kind of my point. Delver is a card that you have to build around, just like a lot of the crappy cards in Legacy.
As for your take on Delver, the reason Delver is so good in Legacy, but no so much in Modern. Deck manipulation. Legacy has tons of deck manipulation where Wotc has limited the deck manipulation in Modern.
Not true. Delver is much more successful in Legacy because of:
1) Land destruction. Wasteland, Stifle.
2) Free counterspells. Force of Will, Daze.
These cards make it easy to protect your Delver/Mongoose, even if you tap low or tap out.
Also the fact that the deck can get away with running very few lands and still function tends to help, along with the library manipulation and other things you mentioned. Less lands = more chance of flipping Delver. Modern Delver decks could never get away with running around 18 lands and be 3 colours and run land destruction, etc etc. This is another feature of legacy decks in general - the average curve is so low, that decks can afford to have less lands, therefore freeing up room for more spells.
Modern decks could manage with 18 lands if their curve was low enough. The reason that Delver can run 18 lands, 3 colors, and 4 Wasteland is because of the cantrips. The curve can be replicated in Modern, the problem is that Modern doesn't have the cantrips to smooth out draws.
The lack of Brainstorm and Ponder and anything close to them is the biggest hit to Delver. The power of the deck is its ability to find the cards it needs and sift past lands. Delver generates virtual card advantage by intentionally not playing more than 2-3 lands at a time. Ponder and Brainstorm are what let it continue to draw spells after it hits those early land drops. The Daze, FoW, Stifle, Wasteland tempo aspects are important but are less essential. Yuuya's standard delver with 19 lands where he complained about flooding was reminiscent of Legacy delver. The deck's goal is to 1 for 1 until the opponent is drawing lands and the Delver deck is drawing spells. The ability to steal wins off Stifle and Wasteland is really just a bonus for the deck. Delver doesn't function when it doesn't draw a mix of threats and disruption; Modern decks utilize cards with a higher singular power level to combat the inconsistency of the format.
shouldn't wizzy just print better black anti combo hate?
or white... or red?
that would be much more useful for all format instead that silly bans in one format and running blue in the other...
Black/Blue is far stronger against combo than Blue by itself. There is a reason that Jund isn't stone dead to combo, even in Legacy. Black is often better than Blue at fighting combo on turns 2-4.
I dunno if were ready to go to 18 lands yet... In zoo you top out at 2 and even then your running 19-21 lands because you still need to cast more 2 cmc spells. Legacy is a format of 1 cmc, modern is 2 cmc. Thats where are ultiliy and bomb spells generally are.
I dunno if were ready to go to 18 lands yet... In zoo you top out at 2 and even then your running 19-21 lands because you still need to cast more 2 cmc spells. Legacy is a format of 1 cmc, modern is 2 cmc. Thats where are ultiliy and bomb spells generally are.
That was part of my point. Cantrips are what lets Legacy decks run narrower cards. Modern requires a higher power level per card because you don't have the consistency that cantrips offer.
Revised more or less prevents this from happening until the magic community hits some number of millions of people more than it is now. An unlikely situation. (and one that if it happens is self defeating.
That was :pumpkin:, and just wrong, he spent most of it bashing modern, only a idiot would take anything he wrote seriously. What a joke.
The Reserved list will assure Legacy's death, no matter how fanboyish people would like to think. Moderator Action: Warning for Inappropriate language Lantern
Guys, I know this will be probably not liked by many people but could we please stop saying FREE counterspells when talking about the legacy ones? There's no such thing, and I'll gladly explain why.
Force of will: this card isn't free.It requires another blue card, and 1 life.Let's ignore the 1 life, you still need to pitch a blue card, that is quite an important part of the cost, which in some cases is worse than paying mana for a counterspell.I know that for all reasons in LEGACY we should consider them free, but I wouldn't say the same in modern.
First and foremost, you require a certain number of blue spells to pitch to will, second, if you think will is always good and is always free, you're ignoring the fact that in magic, cards and tempo are resources, if you are 2-1 trading outside of combo protection, you're losing in the deal.In legacy this is less so since most of the times you are happy to do that trade, but I wouldn't say this is the same in modern.Personally I would NEVER use a will in modern given the current decks, since there's no real combo, or strong card that I need to force RIGHT NOW.Other counters are more than fine I'd say, this is mostly needed to enable a format with stronger combo.
Daze: first and foremost daze is generally useless affter turn 3, even in legacy, and it's cost again, is not free, you have to take back an island, which could be awesome(tap, daze, play land, you got more mana) which is the best case scenario, or it could be terrible, setting you back 1 turn with mana, and again, depends on what you're countering.
Daze probably would be usable in modern without breaking anything since again, you are taking a tempo loss in most cases to counter something that could kill you right now, which in modern is not exatly the case.
I'm not saying these are weak, I'm just saying that these should not be considered always FREE, since they still have some costs and in magic, mana isn't the only resource or we wouldn't have tempo decks...
About the topic at hand I'm trying to enjoy modern but I don't like as a gamer and designer the heavy bannings, I'm always for the self-police of the format.
We all know the game has a certain feeling of combo-control-aggro as a rock paper scissor(it isn't exactly true but in most cases is a model that works), right now modern is getting lopsided since combo is getting axe'd every banning since wizards is following a different idea, I'm probably more leaning towards a policy of more functional prints to let the meta keep in check by itself.Right now control is half working, aggro and midrange is rampant, and combo is quite not there.
As a last note, I'd say this is because of gamers mentality right now, which I utterly despise and I'm sorry to say it but...
If you're saying some cards are "unfair" you are damaging magic.Heavily.Excluding black lotus and the p9 and broken cards, there's nothing as unfair, you just need to man up and learn how to deal with the cards, there's ALWAYS something that can stop another non-broken card, and that's the beauty of magic, all the talk of unfair cards is breaking the game slowly but surely.Apparently legacy is full of unfair cards, and yet is one of the most diverse and rich formats.There's tiers of powers as we all know, but it's not just "play blue or lose" that's just a misconception, you just need to learn how to deal with the game.
Every color maybe a bit less red has enough power to deal with the cards people think of "unfair" but that's just players being unreasonable, if the game had unfair things it would've been lopsided and not played.
I played vintage for a long time as the underdog fish aggro deck, unspoilered without p9, so I was playing against THE unfair cards, and still i brought wins against the boogie mans turn 0 wins decks.And vintage is surely more lopsided than what legacy and modern could be.
I could easily say that modern could be a perfect format with storm and will into it if wizards wanted it to be, because we all know it can be stopped.Don't wanna play blue? Cabal therapy + other dicards.White taxing effects.Green and red are kinda a bit weaker but they could get bones threw at them, all without making modern a legacy 1.1 with the right alchemy.
We just need more unbans and more functional reprints.For example tec. edge is an unpowered wasteland that could've been done in a bit more powered way(make it break on 3 lands instea dof 4).
Modern is a nice format but it's getting smothered by people attitude and wizards stance, this format needs more breathing and a bit less whining and more learning how to play the game...
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Vintage nostalgic, WUB Fish control/aggro addicted.
Legacy:RUG Temur Delver
Modern: ??? undecided.
Guys, I know this will be probably not liked by many people but could we please stop saying FREE counterspells when talking about the legacy ones? There's no such thing, and I'll gladly explain why.
Force of will: this card isn't free.It requires another blue card, and 1 life.Let's ignore the 1 life, you still need to pitch a blue card, that is quite an important part of the cost, which in some cases is worse than paying mana for a counterspell.I know that for all reasons in LEGACY we should consider them free, but I wouldn't say the same in modern.
First and foremost, you require a certain number of blue spells to pitch to will, second, if you think will is always good and is always free, you're ignoring the fact that in magic, cards and tempo are resources, if you are 2-1 trading outside of combo protection, you're losing in the deal.In legacy this is less so since most of the times you are happy to do that trade, but I wouldn't say this is the same in modern.Personally I would NEVER use a will in modern given the current decks, since there's no real combo, or strong card that I need to force RIGHT NOW.Other counters are more than fine I'd say, this is mostly needed to enable a format with stronger combo.
Daze: first and foremost daze is generally useless affter turn 3, even in legacy, and it's cost again, is not free, you have to take back an island, which could be awesome(tap, daze, play land, you got more mana) which is the best case scenario, or it could be terrible, setting you back 1 turn with mana, and again, depends on what you're countering.
Daze probably would be usable in modern without breaking anything since again, you are taking a tempo loss in most cases to counter something that could kill you right now, which in modern is not exatly the case.
I'm not saying these are weak, I'm just saying that these should not be considered always FREE, since they still have some costs and in magic, mana isn't the only resource or we wouldn't have tempo decks...
About the topic at hand I'm trying to enjoy modern but I don't like as a gamer and designer the heavy bannings, I'm always for the self-police of the format.
We all know the game has a certain feeling of combo-control-aggro as a rock paper scissor(it isn't exactly true but in most cases is a model that works), right now modern is getting lopsided since combo is getting axe'd every banning since wizards is following a different idea, I'm probably more leaning towards a policy of more functional prints to let the meta keep in check by itself.Right now control is half working, aggro and midrange is rampant, and combo is quite not there.
As a last note, I'd say this is because of gamers mentality right now, which I utterly despise and I'm sorry to say it but...
If you're saying some cards are "unfair" you are damaging magic.Heavily.Excluding black lotus and the p9 and broken cards, there's nothing as unfair, you just need to man up and learn how to deal with the cards, there's ALWAYS something that can stop another non-broken card, and that's the beauty of magic, all the talk of unfair cards is breaking the game slowly but surely.Apparently legacy is full of unfair cards, and yet is one of the most diverse and rich formats.There's tiers of powers as we all know, but it's not just "play blue or lose" that's just a misconception, you just need to learn how to deal with the game.
Every color maybe a bit less red has enough power to deal with the cards people think of "unfair" but that's just players being unreasonable, if the game had unfair things it would've been lopsided and not played.
I played vintage for a long time as the underdog fish aggro deck, unspoilered without p9, so I was playing against THE unfair cards, and still i brought wins against the boogie mans turn 0 wins decks.And vintage is surely more lopsided than what legacy and modern could be.
I could easily say that modern could be a perfect format with storm and will into it if wizards wanted it to be, because we all know it can be stopped.Don't wanna play blue? Cabal therapy + other dicards.White taxing effects.Green and red are kinda a bit weaker but they could get bones threw at them, all without making modern a legacy 1.1 with the right alchemy.
We just need more unbans and more functional reprints.For example tec. edge is an unpowered wasteland that could've been done in a bit more powered way(make it break on 3 lands instea dof 4).
Modern is a nice format but it's getting smothered by people attitude and wizards stance, this format needs more breathing and a bit less whining and more learning how to play the game...
All I can say is bless you. I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes, the whiners are killing this game slowly but surely. Don't like playing against something? NO problem. Just ***** about it and WotC will ban it.
It literally makes me sick and it needs to stop before this game is a shell of what it could be.
And that is why Legacy is leaps and bounds better than Modern is ever going to be unless something drastic changes.
Love this thread. I wanted to post a comparison thread as well.
I'm looking to get into modern. How fast does the format change compared to Legacy? People have told me that I can take my sweet time saving and building my legacy decks since the format changes very slowly.
All I can say, then, is to try actually playing Modern or watching some Modern professional games that aren't Eggs, because the only time you'll see two Modern decks "Play past" each other is in combo matchups. The vast majority of decks in the format are stuffed to the gills with removal, hand manipulation, and yes, sometimes countermagic. That it is not free countermagic taking out the key piece of a turn two engine combo win does not make it any less "interactive".
I've watched most of the GP coverages (not the PT coverages, I had stuff to do those weekends) and am not impressed. It's either deck X vs combo where X only plays 4-8 interactive spells and crosses his fingers that the combo player beats himself or it's midrange vs midrange FIGHT! which is what I find to be the most boring miserable type of magic since it comes down to the opening 7 and top decking hay makers. Pod is the only deck with mild choices and most of them are straightforward.
This, however, I find unlikely.
I highly, highly doubt that 10% of Legacy cards are actually playable in the context of the format, though determining that would require quite a bit more work than I am willing or able to do at the moment.
Using mtgthesource as a reference just in DTB (I'll exclude goblins from DTB) We have Bug Shardless, Mavrick, ANT, Show and Tell, RUG, BUG Delver, Jund, UW top control, and blade control. However if we go to established you'll find pages of arctypes that use essentially 75 unique cards. Mud, Merfolk, Elves, Lands, Solidarity, the list goes on for literally pages. I was being very conservative with 10% playables in legacy. Most people place the amount at 20% which is around 2,500-2,600 playables or one THIRD of all the cards in the modern format.
I also doubt that Modern actually has fewer viable archetypes than Legacy. It appears to, because Legacy has had a much longer period of time to discover its archetypes, and has less support from Wizards resulting in a format that deckbuilders have less incentive to break.
Let's put it to the test and I'll even give you as much benefit of the doubt as possible.
2 Card combo - Twin/Show - Check
Tempo or Tempo control - UWR legacy/Rug Legacy and UWR Modern - Fewer types but check
Control - Modern UWR (again being generous here) and possibly gifts (not that I've seen it in a while) legacy Counter top RIP and legacy stoneblade. - Check
Ramp - Modern Tron, Legacy Cloudpost - Check
Prison - Modern None, Legacy MUD/Enchantress - Nope
Engine Combo - Modern Used to have eggs/storm now none, legacy storm, elves, exct - Nope
Tribal aggro - Modern uh... no? Legacy goblins, elves, merfolk, and possibly zombies (although there are only 20 zombies in sam blacks decklist so that one might be a stretch)
Dredge - Modern nope Legacy yup - Dredge is a type all by itself legacy and vintage understand that but modern doesn't have dredge at all or has it only in the nominal sense that stinkweed imp is legal. - Nope
I could go on but you get the point.
A hand with Hallowed Fountain, Watery Grave, a fetchland, Snapcaster Mage (Because there really isn't a good Stoneforge equivalent in Modern, for good reason), Serum Visions, Path to Exile, and, well, Inquisition? It's entirely possible to play decks with a billion cheap options in Modern, it's just that it's also entirely possible to play decks with a more defined curve and more expensive spells. Nothing says you have to t1 Deathrite into t2 Loxodon Smiter into t3 Thrun. That's a good plan, but not the only one, and if you want your deck to be cheap and fiddly there are plenty of viable decks that do that.
There's also no equal to brainstorm meaning that hand is so far distant in terms of options it's like comparing playing a cabal therapy to a thoughtseize. Put simply decks without brainstorms contain less options. Period. It's easily provable.
As I said in my other posts. Modern is a format for people who want to play big or relatively big spells (3-4 drops are much bigger than legacies 1-2) while legacy is more interactive and skill intensive. An example is JTMS. He is powerful yes but casting a jace gives you more options than even a pod does simply due to how many options brainstorms offer. While in modern you get some cheep interactive spells aside from discard and lightning bolt you're just playing with inferior legacy spells and powerful creatures. Modern is a more creature centered format, so much so they've had to ban vanilla creatures and this conservative banning has scared people off. People would rather contend with broken spells than be unable to play with the spells they enjoy.
Love this thread. I wanted to post a comparison thread as well.
I'm looking to get into modern. How fast does the format change compared to Legacy? People have told me that I can take my sweet time saving and building my legacy decks since the format changes very slowly.
What about modern?
Modern is a much faster format on average than legacy. Legacy might slightly shift each release but unless we get something format redefining like abrupt decay (Which more or less erased MD counterbalance) or absurdly format breaking like Mental Misstep the only changes come in altering 4 spells in your deck (Adding delvers to RUG for example).
Love this thread. I wanted to post a comparison thread as well.
I'm looking to get into modern. How fast does the format change compared to Legacy? People have told me that I can take my sweet time saving and building my legacy decks since the format changes very slowly.
What about modern?
Until the banlist settles, Modern will keep changing. The good news is that it is increasingly unlikely that we will see more bannings. I'll save that in-depth discussion for another thread, but with the format now about 2 years old, the banning pace should slow considerably. This will make it a safer and easier investment for new players. The bad news is that some cards still might see a ban, which is not appealing for those players who want a safe, eternal investment.
Modern is a very young format and in many ways an unprecedented one. When Legacy arose, it already had a mostly agreed-upon banlist from Type 1, and a preexisting support base from grassroots players. It had minimal event support at first, and took a few years to be widely adopted by both Wizards and SCG. In some ways, Modern will have an even rockier start than Legacy just because of its lack of existing players. But in other ways, Modern will receive more initial support to hopefully offset that growing pain.
If you're saying some cards are "unfair" you are damaging magic.Heavily.Excluding black lotus and the p9 and broken cards, there's nothing as unfair, you just need to man up and learn how to deal with the cards, there's ALWAYS something that can stop another non-broken card, and that's the beauty of magic, all the talk of unfair cards is breaking the game slowly but surely.Apparently legacy is full of unfair cards, and yet is one of the most diverse and rich formats.There's tiers of powers as we all know, but it's not just "play blue or lose" that's just a misconception, you just need to learn how to deal with the game.
That's not true in either Legacy or Vintage, so I'm pretty sure it also won't be true in Modern. There are definitely cards considered unfair in both formats, even when stacked up against the P9 and FoW/Wasteland. I'm looking at you, Flash, along with your friends like Tinker and Gush. Those cards were highly unfair in the context of their format. In Vintage, the unfair list is longer because of the legality of other broken cards; add Brainstorm, Ponder, and Lion's Eye Diamond to the list of restricted cards.
Flash is too unfair for both formats. Brainstorm and LED are fine in Legacy but too crazy for Vintage. By a similar logic, we can easily find cards that are perfectly fair in both Vintage and Legacy (Hypergenesis and Blazing Shoal) that are anything but fair in Modern.
Now, if you disagree with those Vintage/Legacy bannings to begin with, then we can talk about that. But the point is clear; power is all relative to the format's card pool. That's true in Vintage and Legacy, and it's also true in Modern.
It literally makes me sick and it needs to stop before this game is a shell of what it could be.
And that is why Legacy is leaps and bounds better than Modern is ever going to be unless something drastic changes.
With attendance and sales records the last few years, I would say its not going to change.
Most of what you are saying is personal opinion and not everyone would feel the same.
Legacy is a better format to you. I personally dont enjoy the format. Like I have been saying for some time now, Wotc can not please everyone. What one group enjoys, others do not. How does Wotc pick who gets a little love? Which ever one has the steadiest flow of dollars. Legacy does not generate nearly the monies that Standard or Limited bring in. So Standard and limited players probably will be listened to a bit more then the 'old' players screaming about Legacy.
With attendance and sales records the last few years, I would say its not going to change.
Most of what you are saying is personal opinion and not everyone would feel the same.
Legacy is a better format to you. I personally dont enjoy the format. Like I have been saying for some time now, Wotc can not please everyone. What one group enjoys, others do not. How does Wotc pick who gets a little love? Which ever one has the steadiest flow of dollars. Legacy does not generate nearly the monies that Standard or Limited bring in. So Standard and limited players probably will be listened to a bit more then the 'old' players screaming about Legacy.
Ok, I wasn't going to post in here, but I needed to concur with LBS and Sonne on this. Modern needs to change badly and wotc needs to stop listening to the whiners because the whiners only want what they want handed to them on a silver platter. Don't like something? Whine about it endlessly to wotc and they'll ban something making your deck better.
There are cards on the banlist that have no place being there. Their unbannings would make modern a bit more balanced and you wouldn't even NEED to ban other cards because they wouldn't be a problem with the banned cards in the format. And no, i'm not advocating ALL of the banned list comes off, i'm only talking about a few cards on there, like BB and AV.
The whole point of a non-rotating format is to not have to buy into it every 3 months, which you kinda have to with modern. Your deck got banned? Oops, too bad, looks like you have to reinvest into another deck. Oh, that nice, balanced deck you used to play in 2006 standard isn't legal because we banned something that had no right being banned? too bad! You want to play those cards but can't because they're not powerful enough to play in legacy? Sorry, we're catering this non-rotating format to people who won't even play it when their standard legal stuff rotates...
BTW, you can quote me on what I say next. When Innistrad rotates out of standard, the number of people playing with those cards in modern will DRASTICALLY decrease. Why? because they've sold their cards and moved on to play a new standard deck instead... Why keep the cards if they're not double-format legal anymore? That's essentially what modern looks like right now, super standard with a few older cards thrown in.
Sickening, like we NEEDED another standard?
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We can ponder the merits and debate the differences ad infinitum, but the fact remains that both formats exist in the same universe at the same time. Unless you are concerned that you're going to be forced into playing one or the other, I don't see the point in comparing the two formats. Just play and let play.
Ok, I wasn't going to post in here, but I needed to concur with LBS and Sonne on this. Modern needs to change badly and wotc needs to stop listening to the whiners because the whiners only want what they want handed to them on a silver platter. Don't like something? Whine about it endlessly to wotc and they'll ban something making your deck better.
There are cards on the banlist that have no place being there. Their unbannings would make modern a bit more balanced and you wouldn't even NEED to ban other cards because they wouldn't be a problem with the banned cards in the format. And no, i'm not advocating ALL of the banned list comes off, i'm only talking about a few cards on there, like BB and AV.
The whole point of a non-rotating format is to not have to buy into it every 3 months, which you kinda have to with modern. Your deck got banned? Oops, too bad, looks like you have to reinvest into another deck. Oh, that nice, balanced deck you used to play in 2006 standard isn't legal because we banned something that had no right being banned? too bad! You want to play those cards but can't because they're not powerful enough to play in legacy? Sorry, we're catering this non-rotating format to people who won't even play it when their standard legal stuff rotates...
BTW, you can quote me on what I say next. When Innistrad rotates out of standard, the number of people playing with those cards in modern will DRASTICALLY decrease. Why? because they've sold their cards and moved on to play a new standard deck instead... Why keep the cards if they're not double-format legal anymore? That's essentially what modern looks like right now, super standard with a few older cards thrown in.
Sickening, like we NEEDED another standard?
I would counter, I feel its sickening some feel every format must be like Legacy.
As long as you and the rest have a format called Legacy, there is no need to change Modern at all. It gives the player base a choice of the type of Magic they would like to play. If there was a Legacy and Modern tournament on the same weekend, I am sure you would pick Legacy, and thats fine. I would pick Modern. You should not have the right to tell me any different, just as I shouldnt have any right to tell you, you cant play Legacy.
I would counter, I feel its sickening some feel every format must be like Legacy.
As long as you and the rest have a format called Legacy, there is no need to change Modern at all. It gives the player base a choice of the type of Magic they would like to play. If there was a Legacy and Modern tournament on the same weekend, I am sure you would pick Legacy, and thats fine. I would pick Modern. You should not have the right to tell me any different, just as I shouldnt have any right to tell you, you cant play Legacy.
Here is the problem with that argument and this is why we're having these knock down drag outs.
Legacy is living on borrowed time. How much borrowed time? Who knows? 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, whatever. But someday it WILL end because of the RL unless WotC drops it.
When the end comes, all the Legacy players are going to need SOMETHING to fall back on. That something is Modern. If it isn't even close to Legacy, they're all simply going to quit Magic.
I know you don't care. But we do. We need something to hope for for the future.
Here is the problem with that argument and this is why we're having these knock down drag outs.
Legacy is living on borrowed time. How much borrowed time? Who knows? 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, whatever. But someday it WILL end because of the RL unless WotC drops it.
When the end comes, all the Legacy players are going to need SOMETHING to fall back on. That something is Modern. If it isn't even close to Legacy, they're all simply going to quit Magic.
I know you don't care. But we do. We need something to hope for for the future.
shouldn't wizzy just print better black anti combo hate?
or white... or red?
that would be much more useful for all format instead that silly bans in one format and running blue in the other...
Actually, my friend and I were discussing how to keep combo in check in Modern without banning the **** out of it yesterday. He said we don't need to have blue be in that role. We could put black in that role instead. He was thinking a slightly less powerful version of Hymn to Tourach. Basically Hymn without the random clause since what makes Hymn a bit too powerful for Modern is its ability to hit lands in the opponent's hand. Just wanted to mention it since in response to what Negator87 said.
As for comparing Modern to Legacy, I want to say the way things are right now, I definitely prefer Legacy to Modern. But that does not mean I think Modern is a piece-of-**** format. Yes I'm despondent about the state of affairs in modern currently, but I know I'm not going completely abandon it. I actually plan on having playsets of each shocks by the end of the summer and on at least drafting Modern Masters when I can if I don't buy a box just to have enough staples for when I feel like playing Modern.
I also don't play modern right now because the store that brings in the most for modern doesn't have a competitive enough scene for my taste. I don't enjoy winning the majority of the time if there's no challenge in it. However, I noticed when I searched for stores near where I live, a lot of them are going to have Modern as an FNM format come June. I'm hoping that Modern Masters will be successful so that I have another option for constructed on Friday nights besides Standard.
For my fellow Legacy players, give modern more time to grow and maybe even pick up the shocks when you can since now is a good time to do so.
Here is the problem with that argument and this is why we're having these knock down drag outs.
Legacy is living on borrowed time. How much borrowed time? Who knows? 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, whatever. But someday it WILL end because of the RL unless WotC drops it.
When the end comes, all the Legacy players are going to need SOMETHING to fall back on. That something is Modern. If it isn't even close to Legacy, they're all simply going to quit Magic.
I know you don't care. But we do. We need something to hope for for the future.
That's all we're asking for.
And I have said multiple times, until that time comes, leave well enough alone. I dont see why you should get 2 formats just because one is dying and others get zero. Let those enjoying Modern play Modern as it is now.
If/when Legacy goes away, we will cross that bridge when we get there. If that day comes, I will fully support pushing Modern to be more like Legacy for what those players lost and I will go back to playing limited.
There is no turn rule on Legacy. Otherwise Belcher, Ad nauseam, and all these other cards would be banned. Sure there is a critical turn, but there is no set rule by WOTC
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The larger the card pool, the better those fringe cards become.
As for your take on Delver, the reason Delver is so good in Legacy, but no so much in Modern. Deck manipulation. Legacy has tons of deck manipulation where Wotc has limited the deck manipulation in Modern.
That was kind of my point. Delver is a card that you have to build around, just like a lot of the crappy cards in Legacy.
Not true. Delver is much more successful in Legacy because of:
1) Land destruction. Wasteland, Stifle.
2) Free counterspells. Force of Will, Daze.
These cards make it easy to protect your Delver/Mongoose, even if you tap low or tap out.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Modern decks could manage with 18 lands if their curve was low enough. The reason that Delver can run 18 lands, 3 colors, and 4 Wasteland is because of the cantrips. The curve can be replicated in Modern, the problem is that Modern doesn't have the cantrips to smooth out draws.
The lack of Brainstorm and Ponder and anything close to them is the biggest hit to Delver. The power of the deck is its ability to find the cards it needs and sift past lands. Delver generates virtual card advantage by intentionally not playing more than 2-3 lands at a time. Ponder and Brainstorm are what let it continue to draw spells after it hits those early land drops. The Daze, FoW, Stifle, Wasteland tempo aspects are important but are less essential. Yuuya's standard delver with 19 lands where he complained about flooding was reminiscent of Legacy delver. The deck's goal is to 1 for 1 until the opponent is drawing lands and the Delver deck is drawing spells. The ability to steal wins off Stifle and Wasteland is really just a bonus for the deck. Delver doesn't function when it doesn't draw a mix of threats and disruption; Modern decks utilize cards with a higher singular power level to combat the inconsistency of the format.
Inquisition of Kozilek, Hymn to Tourach, Surgical Extraction, Thoughtseize, Leyline of the Void, Nether Void.
Black/Blue is far stronger against combo than Blue by itself. There is a reason that Jund isn't stone dead to combo, even in Legacy. Black is often better than Blue at fighting combo on turns 2-4.
That was part of my point. Cantrips are what lets Legacy decks run narrower cards. Modern requires a higher power level per card because you don't have the consistency that cantrips offer.
Thing is, Force is universally good against combo. These cards are not. They beat one type of combo and lose to another.
For example:
Force can stop both Past in Flames and Splinter Twin.
Thoughtseize beats Twin, but blows against Past.
Leyline of the Void is awesome against Past, but does nothing against the Twin combo.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
That was :pumpkin:, and just wrong, he spent most of it bashing modern, only a idiot would take anything he wrote seriously. What a joke.
The Reserved list will assure Legacy's death, no matter how fanboyish people would like to think.
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Force of will: this card isn't free.It requires another blue card, and 1 life.Let's ignore the 1 life, you still need to pitch a blue card, that is quite an important part of the cost, which in some cases is worse than paying mana for a counterspell.I know that for all reasons in LEGACY we should consider them free, but I wouldn't say the same in modern.
First and foremost, you require a certain number of blue spells to pitch to will, second, if you think will is always good and is always free, you're ignoring the fact that in magic, cards and tempo are resources, if you are 2-1 trading outside of combo protection, you're losing in the deal.In legacy this is less so since most of the times you are happy to do that trade, but I wouldn't say this is the same in modern.Personally I would NEVER use a will in modern given the current decks, since there's no real combo, or strong card that I need to force RIGHT NOW.Other counters are more than fine I'd say, this is mostly needed to enable a format with stronger combo.
Daze: first and foremost daze is generally useless affter turn 3, even in legacy, and it's cost again, is not free, you have to take back an island, which could be awesome(tap, daze, play land, you got more mana) which is the best case scenario, or it could be terrible, setting you back 1 turn with mana, and again, depends on what you're countering.
Daze probably would be usable in modern without breaking anything since again, you are taking a tempo loss in most cases to counter something that could kill you right now, which in modern is not exatly the case.
I'm not saying these are weak, I'm just saying that these should not be considered always FREE, since they still have some costs and in magic, mana isn't the only resource or we wouldn't have tempo decks...
About the topic at hand I'm trying to enjoy modern but I don't like as a gamer and designer the heavy bannings, I'm always for the self-police of the format.
We all know the game has a certain feeling of combo-control-aggro as a rock paper scissor(it isn't exactly true but in most cases is a model that works), right now modern is getting lopsided since combo is getting axe'd every banning since wizards is following a different idea, I'm probably more leaning towards a policy of more functional prints to let the meta keep in check by itself.Right now control is half working, aggro and midrange is rampant, and combo is quite not there.
As a last note, I'd say this is because of gamers mentality right now, which I utterly despise and I'm sorry to say it but...
If you're saying some cards are "unfair" you are damaging magic.Heavily.Excluding black lotus and the p9 and broken cards, there's nothing as unfair, you just need to man up and learn how to deal with the cards, there's ALWAYS something that can stop another non-broken card, and that's the beauty of magic, all the talk of unfair cards is breaking the game slowly but surely.Apparently legacy is full of unfair cards, and yet is one of the most diverse and rich formats.There's tiers of powers as we all know, but it's not just "play blue or lose" that's just a misconception, you just need to learn how to deal with the game.
Every color maybe a bit less red has enough power to deal with the cards people think of "unfair" but that's just players being unreasonable, if the game had unfair things it would've been lopsided and not played.
I played vintage for a long time as the underdog fish aggro deck, unspoilered without p9, so I was playing against THE unfair cards, and still i brought wins against the boogie mans turn 0 wins decks.And vintage is surely more lopsided than what legacy and modern could be.
I could easily say that modern could be a perfect format with storm and will into it if wizards wanted it to be, because we all know it can be stopped.Don't wanna play blue? Cabal therapy + other dicards.White taxing effects.Green and red are kinda a bit weaker but they could get bones threw at them, all without making modern a legacy 1.1 with the right alchemy.
We just need more unbans and more functional reprints.For example tec. edge is an unpowered wasteland that could've been done in a bit more powered way(make it break on 3 lands instea dof 4).
Modern is a nice format but it's getting smothered by people attitude and wizards stance, this format needs more breathing and a bit less whining and more learning how to play the game...
Legacy:RUG Temur Delver
Modern: ??? undecided.
All I can say is bless you. I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes, the whiners are killing this game slowly but surely. Don't like playing against something? NO problem. Just ***** about it and WotC will ban it.
It literally makes me sick and it needs to stop before this game is a shell of what it could be.
And that is why Legacy is leaps and bounds better than Modern is ever going to be unless something drastic changes.
I'm looking to get into modern. How fast does the format change compared to Legacy? People have told me that I can take my sweet time saving and building my legacy decks since the format changes very slowly.
What about modern?
I've watched most of the GP coverages (not the PT coverages, I had stuff to do those weekends) and am not impressed. It's either deck X vs combo where X only plays 4-8 interactive spells and crosses his fingers that the combo player beats himself or it's midrange vs midrange FIGHT! which is what I find to be the most boring miserable type of magic since it comes down to the opening 7 and top decking hay makers. Pod is the only deck with mild choices and most of them are straightforward.
Using mtgthesource as a reference just in DTB (I'll exclude goblins from DTB) We have Bug Shardless, Mavrick, ANT, Show and Tell, RUG, BUG Delver, Jund, UW top control, and blade control. However if we go to established you'll find pages of arctypes that use essentially 75 unique cards. Mud, Merfolk, Elves, Lands, Solidarity, the list goes on for literally pages. I was being very conservative with 10% playables in legacy. Most people place the amount at 20% which is around 2,500-2,600 playables or one THIRD of all the cards in the modern format.
Let's put it to the test and I'll even give you as much benefit of the doubt as possible.
2 Card combo - Twin/Show - Check
Tempo or Tempo control - UWR legacy/Rug Legacy and UWR Modern - Fewer types but check
Control - Modern UWR (again being generous here) and possibly gifts (not that I've seen it in a while) legacy Counter top RIP and legacy stoneblade. - Check
Ramp - Modern Tron, Legacy Cloudpost - Check
Prison - Modern None, Legacy MUD/Enchantress - Nope
Engine Combo - Modern Used to have eggs/storm now none, legacy storm, elves, exct - Nope
Tribal aggro - Modern uh... no? Legacy goblins, elves, merfolk, and possibly zombies (although there are only 20 zombies in sam blacks decklist so that one might be a stretch)
Dredge - Modern nope Legacy yup - Dredge is a type all by itself legacy and vintage understand that but modern doesn't have dredge at all or has it only in the nominal sense that stinkweed imp is legal. - Nope
I could go on but you get the point.
There's also no equal to brainstorm meaning that hand is so far distant in terms of options it's like comparing playing a cabal therapy to a thoughtseize. Put simply decks without brainstorms contain less options. Period. It's easily provable.
As I said in my other posts. Modern is a format for people who want to play big or relatively big spells (3-4 drops are much bigger than legacies 1-2) while legacy is more interactive and skill intensive. An example is JTMS. He is powerful yes but casting a jace gives you more options than even a pod does simply due to how many options brainstorms offer. While in modern you get some cheep interactive spells aside from discard and lightning bolt you're just playing with inferior legacy spells and powerful creatures. Modern is a more creature centered format, so much so they've had to ban vanilla creatures and this conservative banning has scared people off. People would rather contend with broken spells than be unable to play with the spells they enjoy.
Modern is a much faster format on average than legacy. Legacy might slightly shift each release but unless we get something format redefining like abrupt decay (Which more or less erased MD counterbalance) or absurdly format breaking like Mental Misstep the only changes come in altering 4 spells in your deck (Adding delvers to RUG for example).
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Until the banlist settles, Modern will keep changing. The good news is that it is increasingly unlikely that we will see more bannings. I'll save that in-depth discussion for another thread, but with the format now about 2 years old, the banning pace should slow considerably. This will make it a safer and easier investment for new players. The bad news is that some cards still might see a ban, which is not appealing for those players who want a safe, eternal investment.
Modern is a very young format and in many ways an unprecedented one. When Legacy arose, it already had a mostly agreed-upon banlist from Type 1, and a preexisting support base from grassroots players. It had minimal event support at first, and took a few years to be widely adopted by both Wizards and SCG. In some ways, Modern will have an even rockier start than Legacy just because of its lack of existing players. But in other ways, Modern will receive more initial support to hopefully offset that growing pain.
That's not true in either Legacy or Vintage, so I'm pretty sure it also won't be true in Modern. There are definitely cards considered unfair in both formats, even when stacked up against the P9 and FoW/Wasteland. I'm looking at you, Flash, along with your friends like Tinker and Gush. Those cards were highly unfair in the context of their format. In Vintage, the unfair list is longer because of the legality of other broken cards; add Brainstorm, Ponder, and Lion's Eye Diamond to the list of restricted cards.
Flash is too unfair for both formats. Brainstorm and LED are fine in Legacy but too crazy for Vintage. By a similar logic, we can easily find cards that are perfectly fair in both Vintage and Legacy (Hypergenesis and Blazing Shoal) that are anything but fair in Modern.
Now, if you disagree with those Vintage/Legacy bannings to begin with, then we can talk about that. But the point is clear; power is all relative to the format's card pool. That's true in Vintage and Legacy, and it's also true in Modern.
With attendance and sales records the last few years, I would say its not going to change.
Most of what you are saying is personal opinion and not everyone would feel the same.
Legacy is a better format to you. I personally dont enjoy the format. Like I have been saying for some time now, Wotc can not please everyone. What one group enjoys, others do not. How does Wotc pick who gets a little love? Which ever one has the steadiest flow of dollars. Legacy does not generate nearly the monies that Standard or Limited bring in. So Standard and limited players probably will be listened to a bit more then the 'old' players screaming about Legacy.
Ok, I wasn't going to post in here, but I needed to concur with LBS and Sonne on this. Modern needs to change badly and wotc needs to stop listening to the whiners because the whiners only want what they want handed to them on a silver platter. Don't like something? Whine about it endlessly to wotc and they'll ban something making your deck better.
There are cards on the banlist that have no place being there. Their unbannings would make modern a bit more balanced and you wouldn't even NEED to ban other cards because they wouldn't be a problem with the banned cards in the format. And no, i'm not advocating ALL of the banned list comes off, i'm only talking about a few cards on there, like BB and AV.
The whole point of a non-rotating format is to not have to buy into it every 3 months, which you kinda have to with modern. Your deck got banned? Oops, too bad, looks like you have to reinvest into another deck. Oh, that nice, balanced deck you used to play in 2006 standard isn't legal because we banned something that had no right being banned? too bad! You want to play those cards but can't because they're not powerful enough to play in legacy? Sorry, we're catering this non-rotating format to people who won't even play it when their standard legal stuff rotates...
BTW, you can quote me on what I say next. When Innistrad rotates out of standard, the number of people playing with those cards in modern will DRASTICALLY decrease. Why? because they've sold their cards and moved on to play a new standard deck instead... Why keep the cards if they're not double-format legal anymore? That's essentially what modern looks like right now, super standard with a few older cards thrown in.
Sickening, like we NEEDED another standard?
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I would counter, I feel its sickening some feel every format must be like Legacy.
As long as you and the rest have a format called Legacy, there is no need to change Modern at all. It gives the player base a choice of the type of Magic they would like to play. If there was a Legacy and Modern tournament on the same weekend, I am sure you would pick Legacy, and thats fine. I would pick Modern. You should not have the right to tell me any different, just as I shouldnt have any right to tell you, you cant play Legacy.
Here is the problem with that argument and this is why we're having these knock down drag outs.
Legacy is living on borrowed time. How much borrowed time? Who knows? 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, whatever. But someday it WILL end because of the RL unless WotC drops it.
When the end comes, all the Legacy players are going to need SOMETHING to fall back on. That something is Modern. If it isn't even close to Legacy, they're all simply going to quit Magic.
I know you don't care. But we do. We need something to hope for for the future.
That's all we're asking for.
This.
Actually, my friend and I were discussing how to keep combo in check in Modern without banning the **** out of it yesterday. He said we don't need to have blue be in that role. We could put black in that role instead. He was thinking a slightly less powerful version of Hymn to Tourach. Basically Hymn without the random clause since what makes Hymn a bit too powerful for Modern is its ability to hit lands in the opponent's hand. Just wanted to mention it since in response to what Negator87 said.
As for comparing Modern to Legacy, I want to say the way things are right now, I definitely prefer Legacy to Modern. But that does not mean I think Modern is a piece-of-**** format. Yes I'm despondent about the state of affairs in modern currently, but I know I'm not going completely abandon it. I actually plan on having playsets of each shocks by the end of the summer and on at least drafting Modern Masters when I can if I don't buy a box just to have enough staples for when I feel like playing Modern.
I also don't play modern right now because the store that brings in the most for modern doesn't have a competitive enough scene for my taste. I don't enjoy winning the majority of the time if there's no challenge in it. However, I noticed when I searched for stores near where I live, a lot of them are going to have Modern as an FNM format come June. I'm hoping that Modern Masters will be successful so that I have another option for constructed on Friday nights besides Standard.
For my fellow Legacy players, give modern more time to grow and maybe even pick up the shocks when you can since now is a good time to do so.
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
And I have said multiple times, until that time comes, leave well enough alone. I dont see why you should get 2 formats just because one is dying and others get zero. Let those enjoying Modern play Modern as it is now.
If/when Legacy goes away, we will cross that bridge when we get there. If that day comes, I will fully support pushing Modern to be more like Legacy for what those players lost and I will go back to playing limited.