There is no turn rule on Legacy. Otherwise Belcher, Ad nauseam, and all these other cards would be banned. Sure there is a critical turn, but there is no set rule by WOTC
And as I said, turn 4 is suppose to be Moderns critical turn, but it isnt. Many more bans will need to be done before Modern comes any where near a turn 4 critical format.
So you admit, Legacy has guidelines too, because Wotc does ban things from the format. Thank you for proving my point.
Okay buddy, you win. Legacy has guidelines. For that matter, everything besides casual (where you play any ****ing thing you want) has guidelines.
Now if we can stop being so damn ****ing literal with the terminology (are you like an accountant or bookkeeper or something) let's look at these guidelines realistically for Standard, Modern, Legacy and Vintage
Vintage
Has a restricted list and only a banned list for ante and dexterity cards and Shez because it turns tournaments into a joke when you're playing 4 sub games. It is the most abusive time card in the history of this game. It had to go or Vintage would have been destroyed.
It has no restrictions on how quickly you can win. It has no restrictions on percent of meta, though with how many answers there are in the format, it's almost impossible for any one deck to dominate.
In short, I don't even remember the last time a card was banned in Vintage.
There you have it. Those are Vintages restrictions.
Legacy
Same as Vintage except no restricted list. Just a banned list to remove the most broken and oppressive cards.
No limits on how quickly you can win. Not sure about limits on percent of meta because the format is so diverse and has so many answers that I can't imagine one deck being 25% of the meta or more.
There you have it. Those are Legacies restrictions.
Standard
Standard's ONLY restriction, ironically, is that you can only play with cards in the current blocks. It has no turn restrictions or anything. Not even a banned list unless things get ridiculously out of hand (like Caw-Blade being 50% of the meta) and attendance plummets.
There you have it. Those are Standard's restrictions.
Modern
Can only play with cards from 8th edition onward.
Can't win before turn 4.
Can't be more than 25% of meta.
Can't take too long to play.
Cards that were dominant in past standards are banned.
Cards that are cross format dominant are banned. Though I can't understand why, if that's so, DRS, Bob, Goyf and Liliana aren't on the banned list.
There you have it. Of all the major formats, Modern has the MOST restrictions tied to it. You can deny that all you want, but those are the facts. By your own admission as to WotC's "vision" for this format, those are the restrictions.
So yes, every format has its restrictions (I swear you have to be an accountant) but Modern has the most oppressive restrictions of any format including Standard, which ironically is supposed to be the worst of all the formats.
Guess what? It's not. At least in Standard I can put together any deck I want and be 99% sure that it won't be hit by some kind of stupid ban.
As a Legacy player, I will readily admit that I am HEAVILY biased.
Legacy is my favorite format. Period.
That should paint a picture of the kind of Magic I enjoy playing/watching. I like to do powerful things. I'm not even talking combo decks because I don't play much pure combo. I especially like it my fair decks doing powerful things. I like cards like Aether Vial, Bitterblossom, Sylvan Library, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, Mother of Runes, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Knight of the Reliquary, and the list goes on.
When I play Modern, it feels watered down. The decks just aren't doing as interesting of things as I can find in Legacy. I don't really see many synergy driven decks, and when I do they just feel worse than the decks throwing the best cards in XYZ colors together. Nothing really has the feel of The Walking Dead (a deck centered on Faithless Looting and Goblin Bombardment of all things), or Goblins, or Death and Taxes. Sure, you see a lot of players trying to replicate these types of decks, but they just don't have the same oomph to them.
To be honest, I actually like the idea of the "turn 4 rule" because it benefits the types of decks I most enjoy playing. I can only imagine how strong Goblins (my first, and perhaps my favorite Legacy deck I built) would be in Legacy if the "turn 4 rule" existed in that format. But everything else about the format just feels like it's being held back by the length of the banned list. Too many unnecessary bans. And to be honest, Modern could probably self regulate itself similarly to Legacy if some of these cards were taken off. Some people will say that those cards stifle deckbuilding, but I'm a firm believer that having pillars of a format actually opens up more possibilities. In Legacy you can take a new deck idea, and because you know what kinds of archetypes you are most likely to see, you can build with that in mind. It allows you to attack the format from interesting angles, because you know where to attack from. In an unclear format its best to just pick something doing generically strong things, or noninteractive things - this can be true to the point where you are hindering yourself by trying to create something unique!
In Legacy, take a deck like Maverick as an example. The pillars of the format at the time of its introduction to the format were largely tempo strategies, and Stoneforge Mystic strategies. Deckbuilders were able to exploit a definited metagame by introducing something brand new into the format and do very well with it because it attacked the known metagame at the right angle. It's the power of Legacy, that creates pillars of the format at any given point in the metagame cycle, that gives brewers the best chance at success.
There are specific pet cards that I can only play with in Legacy, so Modern will never truly replace Legacy, but they can certainly take steps to make it a format I enjoy alongside Legacy. And years from now, when Legacy has finally played its course, I want to be able to move to Modern and find new pet cards/strategies. But as it stands, with such a lengthy banlist of cards that don't even fit the "turn 4 rule" I don't think I can.
Guess what? It's not. At least in Standard I can put together any deck I want and be 99% sure that it won't be hit by some kind of stupid ban.
I can't say that about Modern.
While that's true, you can also be 100% sure you're going to have to buy new cards every 3 months to maintain your deck, and then after 6 months to a year you'll have to just get a new deck entirely.
I hate saying it because the format is so bad right now, but Modern is the future of Magic. Vintage and Legacy have too many card availability issues, which leaves Modern as the default eternal format as time goes on. Unless the playerbase drops, in which case Legacy still has a long term future.
Who said I play aggro? I have played aggro but I have also played combo and control. I started the format playing NLB and Teachings.
If you believe you can only play one type of deck, thats your narrow look at the format. You can play a multitude of decks.
I am sorry the format does not appeal to you, now you know how people who dont like Legacy or Standard or EDH feel. Not all formats can be designed for all players. The fact Legacy players dislike the format makes me believe they are on the right track.
It's not just my view, it's what I've encountered, Why bother trying to play control when it has NO CHANCE against aggro? Why play combo when everything gets banned even though you lose to 80% of the meta?
Seriously, why play anything in modern that isn't Life-Gain.dec or Aggro? ...BTW, Shouldn't Martyr.Proc have been hit if It's gaining an absurd amount of life thus stalling games, or does Serra Ascendant really win games that much?
I'm tired of playing against Aggro decks and having to apologize to the combo player who I beat on turn 1 by casting and flipping Erayo, Soratami Ascendant...
I'm tired of apologizing, I'm tired of aggro v. Aggro, I'm tired of seeing 4-5 color good stuff decks... I'm tired of decks who actually have synergy getting banned because the good-stuff decks can't beat it...
I'm tired of newer players coming over from YGO and Pokeman and having this sense of entitlement and constantly whine for "X card to be banned! It's too broken!"
Hell, I had a legacy player call for everything in Affinity to be banned, in LEGACY... Guess where he came from? three guesses...
Modern's solution is to just ban everything. Sure, lets BAN the cards that could've prevented certain other decks from becoming dominant or time-consuming. And then BAN those cards/decks too!
Modern fails at logic... The Banlist needs a complete re-working.
And yes, It feels like in the near future there won't be a choice, it'll be modern or nothing, so reform needs to happen now to ensure players won't just QUIT en-masse instead of just moving over to another format...
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Players play in Modern tourneys despite them being Modern. Not because they are Modern. People dont get excited and say Modern tournament?!!?!? Im there! They say a tournament in my area?!?! Oh its modern... I guess Ill net deck for a weekend to play in a tourney...
You know, Modern is currently the only format I play. I don't feel like continually buying cards that are guaranteed to rotate so I don't play standard, and even if there were Legacy here that I knew of, I don't feel like spending another six hundred some dollars on lands, just to play the deck I want.
Every single time I can, I go to Modern at FNM, and if there were a Modern tournament near me, I WOULD be excited.
So, your post is completely wrong, in that yes, those people DO exist.
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Collecting Maw of the Mire! Feel free to send me any you have, so long as they're in reasonable condition.
It's not just my view, it's what I've encountered, Why bother trying to play control when it has NO CHANCE against aggro? Why play combo when everything gets banned even though you lose to 80% of the meta?
Seriously, why play anything in modern that isn't Life-Gain.dec or Aggro? ...BTW, Shouldn't Martyr.Proc have been hit if It's gaining an absurd amount of life thus stalling games, or does Serra Ascendant really win games that much?
I'm tired of playing against Aggro decks and having to apologize to the combo player who I beat on turn 1 by casting and flipping Erayo, Soratami Ascendant...
I'm tired of apologizing, I'm tired of aggro v. Aggro, I'm tired of seeing 4-5 color good stuff decks... I'm tired of decks who actually have synergy getting banned because the good-stuff decks can't beat it...
I'm tired of newer players coming over from YGO and Pokeman and having this sense of entitlement and constantly whine for "X card to be banned! It's too broken!"
Hell, I had a legacy player call for everything in Affinity to be banned, in LEGACY... Guess where he came from? three guesses...
Modern's solution is to just ban everything. Sure, lets BAN the cards that could've prevented certain other decks from becoming dominant or time-consuming. And then BAN those cards/decks too!
Modern fails at logic... The Banlist needs a complete re-working.
And yes, It feels like in the near future there won't be a choice, it'll be modern or nothing, so reform needs to happen now to ensure players won't just QUIT en-masse instead of just moving over to another format...
Well I have been playing Magic since its inception and all I want is Wotc to stand by what they set as guidelines. To be fair, Legacy is no where near a turn 3 critical format. Its closer to a turn 2 format. That is one thing that seriously angers me about Legacy.
Now there is a group of people that look at Modern and are mad because Wotc is sticking to their guns. I find that very ironic.
I feel for you if the meta you are playing in is like that. It is nothing that I have by me.
@LBS, Modern will be what it will be. The lack of combo is from the lack of combo form 8th till now. Any combo that can be built is broken and faster then the guidelines of the format. Control is weak because control in Standard is weak from 8th till now. Modern appeals to Standard players of the past 5 or so years because its the same type of Magic they play in Standard. In my opinion, thats a good thing. Its better then having Standard players just ignore older formats. I dont know many newer Standard players with any intention or desire to play Legacy, but they enjoy Modern.
"The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few."
When the time comes, I doubt that the wizards will keep the modern as it is today (rules) for legacy players as the only eternal sanctioned format.
I believe that the company takes into account the fact that the modern have few cards today, that these are "bizarre" rules. I believe that in the future we will see many unbans and "Turn 4" rules abandoned.
WOTC Obviously believes that Legacy should be a turn 3 format by not banning Belcher and ANT style decks right? :/
WOTC is strangle holding the format, limiting what can be done, and destroying entire archetypes just because people dont like playing against them, or WOTC deems them to be too fast. And instead of unbanning cards that have a possibility to fix it, they just ban more. And More. And more. The Quarterly ban announcements for modern have actually become a joke.
There is no guarantee the format can self regulate. The format was tested prior to its announcement. What then? just can the whole format because it lacks the policing cards? Sounds like a no win situation.
Yes in a critical turn format, you should not be able to win before that critical turn.
Fixed that for you. Lightning bolt is one of only two cards to ever feature 32 copies in a top 8 of a major event (The other is jace). This resulted in a jace ban but not a LB ban. LB is the most played card in modern and is substantially more powerful than a card like wild nactal. It requires even blue decks to play red in order to be competitive. Every non combo deck improves by adding red for bolt and even some combo decks.
As for the turn 4 rule there's infect and half a dozen other decks that violate it but because they haven't recently won a major event they aren't banned. In other words the moment infect wins a gp or top 8's a PT it's likely to be banned. Think about that a deck is fine until it does well. That's the stupidest banned list policy in the history of magic.
They've violated literally every single tenet they set forth in the philosophy section and people are furious. Hypocrisy tends to do that.
Did you seriously compare bolt to Jace? I can not take you serious any more.
I feel infect should have glistener elf banned now, should have been banned 6 months ago.
Cant make everyone happy. I can see you are not. Legacy is calling.
Did you seriously compare bolt to Jace? I can not take you serious any more.
You realize bolt is more played than jace outside of vintage where bolt is uncastable vs workshop and does nothing vs dredge. Bolt is more played in legacy even though Jace is more iconic. Bolt has killed far more players than Jace. Bolt is simply a more efficient card. Jace simply FEELS better because when it's in play that's true but bolt costs 1 mana. It's like comparing jace to brainstorm. Brainstorm is clearly the better card (heck look at the math) but people remember jace more.
The fact you can't see that and you've said things like "lightning bolt is my favorite card ... decks with lightning bolts just wouldn't work in legacy" in old threads lead me to believe you're not properly evaluating cards.
A critical turn is where you can feel control of the game leaning toward one player or the other.
If this is true Dark confidant and thoughtseize need to be banned. The turn 1 discard spells can essentially win the game on turn 1.
Daze. Daze really is fine in modern, least I think so. 1 extra mana might trick up a few decks, but generally tempo/control decks that use this will hurt combo far more then loosing a shock land and a card to an aggro deck.
Daze. Daze really is fine in modern, least I think so. 1 extra mana might trick up a few decks, but generally tempo/control decks that use this will hurt combo far more then loosing a shock land and a card to an aggro deck.
Every complete block brings about 3 cards for legacy, yet no decks are Op. If modern ever becomes so weak/powercreep so high that every new set brings changes, there is no reason to play modern. Why do people GENERALLY play 'eternal' like formats: because they like the more skill-intensive interactions, the abundance of decks/archetypes, and most of all the fact that they can play a certain deck for a large period of time. Yes, you have to update your decks, but those who have assembled lets say Esper Stoneblade are quite certain their decks are always viable. Modern is being looked down upon as 'legacy light'. Making it 'standard plus' isnt the solution.
Btw, the bannings are bad for the format with the same reasoning.
On daze: interesting thought. Since i dont have the money to play legacy competitively, im no expert at all, but i do follow the format and play it on cockatrice/proxied. Ive never seen it being played in control. its a tempo all-star for sure, but real control? Again, i could very well be. I was thinking more along the lines of a card like mental misstep with as a difference some kind of restriction that made it a. Not colorless (MM's biggest problem) and b. Control and not tempo oriented. I think that would be impossible though.
EDIT: force spike is legal as a white card, i tested it in my UW control deck without much result. Being free is very important.
Daze is generally only a Tempo/Blue based combo card. It is at its best early where tempo and combp either are going off or countering key spells. Late game it is awfule which is where control wants to be.
Daze is generally only a Tempo/Blue based combo card. It is at its best early where tempo and combp either are going off or countering key spells. Late game it is awfule which is where control wants to be.
you get to lategame by surviving early game, legacy control runs daze for this purpose
and tempo is semidead in modern anyway, i think a daze unban might be good for the format.
i'd like to see how the draw-go UWR plays out first though
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In short, no. Only decks which can consistently win prior to their fourth turn and can consistently do this against top-tier decks in the metagame are candidates for banning. The announcements from Wizards make this very clear. There is a huge difference between a deck that theoretically can win prior to turn 4, and one that can actually do it consistently in a tournament setting against the proven decks of the format.
This is why Goryo's Vengeance decks are safe, for example. The deck can nut draw into a turn 2 win. It's also not very good and doesn't put up results, so it won't get hit with any bans.
This is why Glistener Elf won't get hit with a ban. The deck has to nut draw to win before turn 4, and even with that nut draw it gets stopped in its tracks by a Lightning Bolt. And on top of that, it's not putting up any impressive results.
No, I true critical turn 4 format should have zero decks winning prior to turn 4. Consistency or not. What Wotc has done is said, we are going to have a critical turn 4 format that varies, which is why all the fighting among the player base.
Legacy is a critical turn 3 format, but it has free counters that police the format so letting a few inconsistent turn 3 decks is ok. Modern does not have those policing cards, nor should they. If you add those free counters to Modern, Wotc might as well make Modern a critical turn 3 format also.
One of the great thing about Modern is it is not a blue based format and doesnt need to be because there is no FOW. (I dont hate blue, just hate formats that a color based).
@LBS I answered your questions in the post prior to yours.
Thats what I have been saying. Wotc said one thing and did another. I want them to do as they said. Everyone else wants them to abandon what they said and go their way.
If someone said you had 4 shots to win a competition and after 2 shots they declared a winner, who you be ok with that?
Okay, well then this brings up an interesting point.
By your own admission, this format isn't what you want. At least not entirely. You want a stricter interpretation of what WotC outlined.
Given that, how many players do you think feel closer to the way you feel or closer to the way I feel? And just to clarify, I don't want Legacy Lite. I just want a card that doesn't get cast until turn 5 in a turn 4 format to come off the banned list. I think that desire is actually closer to WotC's actual actions than your desire to nuke everything that can win before turn 3 even if it's just once in a while.
The chasm between those two wants is as wide as the Grand Canyon.
So I have to wonder two things.
1. Where does WotC really fall between the two of us?
2. Where does the average player fall between the two of us?
Because you are the Ultra Conservative Republican but I am not even close to the Ultra Liberal Democrat.
Where does the player base fall and is most of it really just putting up with the format because it's not "horrible?" Heck, you yourself are not entirely happy with it. So isn't it possible that nobody is REALLY happy with it or at least very few are?
The truth is, WotC really IS straddling the fence right now. And that can never end well, especially if nobody is really loving this format.
I can tell you this for certain. The players who play Legacy LOVE playing Legacy. It is too damn expensive to play if you DON'T love it.
So where is Modern going? Is WotC going to continue to be the middle of the road independent and essentially make Modern "tolerable" or are they going to finally pick a side and cater to it?
Because right now, it looks like they're hedging their bets and trying to please everybody and we both know that can't happen.
Something eventually has to give ... one way or the other.
Okay, well then this brings up an interesting point.
By your own admission, this format isn't what you want. At least not entirely. You want a stricter interpretation of what WotC outlined.
Given that, how many players do you think feel closer to the way you feel or closer to the way I feel? And just to clarify, I don't want Legacy Lite. I just want a card that doesn't get cast until turn 5 in a turn 4 format to come off the banned list. I think that desire is actually closer to WotC's actual actions than your desire to nuke everything that can win before turn 3 even if it's just once in a while.
The chasm between those two wants is as wide as the Grand Canyon.
So I have to wonder two things.
1. Where does WotC really fall between the two of us?
2. Where does the average player fall between the two of us?
Because you are the Ultra Conservative Republican but I am not even close to the Ultra Liberal Democrat.
Where does the player base fall and is most of it really just putting up with the format because it's not "horrible?" Heck, you yourself are not entirely happy with it. So isn't it possible that nobody is REALLY happy with it or at least very few are?
The truth is, WotC really IS straddling the fence right now. And that can never end well, especially if nobody is really loving this format.
I can tell you this for certain. The players who play Legacy LOVE playing Legacy. It is too damn expensive to play if you DON'T love it.
So where is Modern going? Is WotC going to continue to be the middle of the road independent and essentially make Modern "tolerable" or are they going to finally pick a side and cater to it?
Because right now, it looks like they're hedging their bets and trying to please everybody and we both know that can't happen.
Something eventually has to give ... one way or the other.
I have said all along, as long as Wotc keeps both of us wanting more from the format, the format will do well. Its only when they start catering to one side when they will start to have problems.
I know many that are mad Wotc has not banned more cards to bring the format closer to a true turn 4 format. I also know many that want Legacy lite.
You are very hard headed about AV. It would be abused. You just fail to see it. Players are drooling over breaking/entering so they can cascade into the breaking side and play the entering side. And you dont think players will try and abuse AV with cascade. All the high level players I know and play with understand that AV can not come off the list because it will be abused right back on to the list.
I would play Modern as it is any night of the week over Legacy. Modern is much closer to the format I want to play regularly the Legacy ever was.
I have said all along, as long as Wotc keeps both of us wanting more from the format, the format will do well. Its only when they start catering to one side when they will start to have problems.
I know many that are mad Wotc has not banned more cards to bring the format closer to a true turn 4 format. I also know many that want Legacy lite.
You are very hard headed about AV. It would be abused. You just fail to see it. Players are drooling over breaking/entering so they can cascade into the breaking side and play the entering side. And you dont think players will try and abuse AV with cascade. All the high level players I know and play with understand that AV can not come off the list because it will be abused right back on to the list.
I would play Modern as it is any night of the week over Legacy. Modern is much closer to the format I want to play regularly the Legacy ever was.
If BBE was still in the format, I'd agree with you. But it isn't. And no decent player worth his salt is going to use Ardent Plea to try to cascade into Vision. Ask any pro in the world and they'll tell you that Plea is a terrible card.
That's what YOU can't see and it boggles my mind. Why would anybody want to put that crap in their deck just to have a "chance" at a turn 3 draw 3. It makes absolutely no sense.
If Shardless Agent, which at least is a decent card, was Modern legal, then yeah, I'd say AV has to stay out. I've seen what that card does in Legacy off a decent cascade spell with other great support cards.
Please tell me you're not serious. Because if you are, I can't possibly value your opinion as a knowledgeable Magic player.
Again, ask ANY pro if they would play Ardent Plea just to have a chance to cascade into AV. If just ONE says they would, I'll publicly come back to this very thread and admit in front of this whole forum that you were right and I was wrong.
Find me one pro who would put that piece of crap in their deck.
If BBE was still in the format, I'd agree with you. But it isn't. And no decent player worth his salt is going to use Ardent Plea to try to cascade into Vision. Ask any pro in the world and they'll tell you that Plea is a terrible card.
That's what YOU can't see and it boggles my mind. Why would anybody want to put that crap in their deck just to have a "chance" at a turn 3 draw 3. It makes absolutely no sense.
If Shardless Agent, which at least is a decent card, was Modern legal, then yeah, I'd say AV has to stay out. I've seen what that card does in Legacy off a decent cascade spell with other great support cards.
Please tell me you're not serious. Because if you are, I can't possibly value your opinion as a knowledgeable Magic player.
Again, ask ANY pro if they would play Ardent Plea just to have a chance to cascade into AV. If just ONE says they would, I'll publicly come back to this very thread and admit in front of this whole forum that you were right and I was wrong.
Find me one pro who would put that piece of crap in their deck.
Just one.
You are forgetting about violent outburst. Some form of R/U/G would become instantly viable.
If people are looking at a split card to abuse it with cascade, AV would be abused also.
Looking to abuse a card and actually abusing it are two different things. If you're loading up your deck with bad cards to make another card playable, you still end up with a bad deck. The only exceptions are in Legacy where you throw a ton of bad cards together to make a great deck because the synergy between the cards (LED + Infernal Tutor as an example) is so great.
There is no synergy between those two horrible cascade cards and AV other than you MIGHT cast the one off the other. In the meantime, you have a deck filled with bad cards in a turn 4 format that will most likely end up making you lose.
Let me put it this way. No way in HELL would I play bad cascade cards to try to cast AV turn 3. I'd rather play AV by itself and be happy with a turn 5 draw 3 if I can live that long.
I'm a bit confused over the rationale trying to justify Ancestral Visions being abusable in Modern.
BUG is the only deck in legacy that runs AV. It can do so because:
1. It has Shardless Agent. A cascade card that isn't dead if it isn't paired with AV.
2. It has Brainstorm and JTMS. Being able to manipulate the top of the library and set up a reliable cascade (as well as shipping back dead AV's) allows AV to produce value less than 5 turns later with any reliability.
3. It can be pitched to FoW when it won't be relevant in the matchup.
Modern:
1. No cascade spells that produce reasonable value in the absence a powerful cascade target.
2. Bad library manipulation. Library manipulation is expensive and not worth running simply to set up cascades.
3. No deck that wants to sacrifice 1/2 drops for an effect such as Ancestral visions.
Perhaps someone could inform me if I'm mistaken in this analysis? I can't think a way to reliably abuse cascade and AV in modern. AV also seems like a rather fair card when suspended normally (Sacrifice 1 card and 1 mana and gain 3 cards four turns later).
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MTGO Decks:
Pauper: U Delver Fae UR Nivix Fiend UWB Esper Sage
GInfect RIP UFissure Post RIP URIzzet Post RIP UBRThe Perfect Pauper Storm RIP
Funny, when BBE was cascading into things, deck builders didnt make it just 1 spell under 4 cmc that BBE cascaded into. Yo build the deck full of cards you dont mind cascading into, such as bolt and DRS. That way you can cascade at the end of their turn 2 into a relevant spell. One of those spells being AV. The whole basis of Jund is every card you could cascade into was decent on their own. Not just a single card. Thats how the old RUG build that played AV in it did it.
That's because Bloodbraid Elf is worth a card on its own. The cascade is pure upside. It's a true 2-for-1. The same is true for Shardless Agent in Legacy.
None of the cascade cards available to you now in modern are worth a card on their own, which means they're only as good as what they cascade into. So you spend 3 mana for a random card off the top of your library. That is not good.
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It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
stuff BBE cascaded into (in a typical GBx shell):
inquisition
thoughtseize
DRS
goyf
liliana
terminate
bolt
finks
messenger
lingering souls
things Argent Plea would cascade into (in a typical UWx shell, where it would most likely be played)
remand
mana leak
path
snapcaster mage
bolt
helix
spell snare
spell pierce
telling time (?)
sleight of hand (?)
serum visions (?)
so taking a look at those lists, aside from the obvious removal spells, ALL of the GBx cards are proactive. the majority of the UWx cards are reactive. maybe you can have an argument for esper, where you'd hit discard, but esper typically runs counters as well, which is a no go for cascade. this isn't legacy (the BUG shell) in that we have 2 cmc cards like jitte and hymn, and other card advantage spells like ponder and brainstorm to hit even when we miss AV. their counter spell is 5 mana, so they don't have to worry about it. additional manipulation means they can set up their cascades much more efficiently than serum visions.
Can we stop with the cascade argument? Modern doesn't have the cascade spells that Legacy does in order to get a true 2 for 1. Playing Violent outburst at the end of your opponent's turn just to draw 3 cards? 3 mana for 3 cards with the possibility of hitting a spell you can't/don't want to cast? Sounds pretty dumb to me...
EDIT: Seems the conversation's been moved. lol, I just can't figure out why people keep saying "Cascade!" whenever AV is mentioned for an unban... le-sigh....
Legacy Pros:
1)More skill intensive
2)More action in the early turns
3)More diverse (both in overall number of archetypes and types of decks)
4)More interesting interactions, cards and decks
5)Logical bans and explanations of them Cons:
1)Very expensive
2)Not a ton of support from wizards
3)Cant foil out every deck
4)Will eventually die do to Reserved List
Modern Pros:
1)Relatively cheap to get into
2)Prevents good cards from standard from falling into the abyss of only being playable in EDH
3)Interactive games
4)Every single deck can be completely foiled out Cons:
1)Silver Bullets often decide entire matches
2)Too many Midrange decks and midrange mirrors
3)Arbitrary bans
4)Not much local support from stores and player base outside PTQs
Modern is the long-term successor to Legacy for the title of "Everyones favorite non-rotating format" but its still not quite at a point where the community at large is willing to accept it as a fun format for everyone
And as I said, turn 4 is suppose to be Moderns critical turn, but it isnt. Many more bans will need to be done before Modern comes any where near a turn 4 critical format.
Okay buddy, you win. Legacy has guidelines. For that matter, everything besides casual (where you play any ****ing thing you want) has guidelines.
Now if we can stop being so damn ****ing literal with the terminology (are you like an accountant or bookkeeper or something) let's look at these guidelines realistically for Standard, Modern, Legacy and Vintage
Vintage
Has a restricted list and only a banned list for ante and dexterity cards and Shez because it turns tournaments into a joke when you're playing 4 sub games. It is the most abusive time card in the history of this game. It had to go or Vintage would have been destroyed.
It has no restrictions on how quickly you can win. It has no restrictions on percent of meta, though with how many answers there are in the format, it's almost impossible for any one deck to dominate.
In short, I don't even remember the last time a card was banned in Vintage.
There you have it. Those are Vintages restrictions.
Legacy
Same as Vintage except no restricted list. Just a banned list to remove the most broken and oppressive cards.
No limits on how quickly you can win. Not sure about limits on percent of meta because the format is so diverse and has so many answers that I can't imagine one deck being 25% of the meta or more.
There you have it. Those are Legacies restrictions.
Standard
Standard's ONLY restriction, ironically, is that you can only play with cards in the current blocks. It has no turn restrictions or anything. Not even a banned list unless things get ridiculously out of hand (like Caw-Blade being 50% of the meta) and attendance plummets.
There you have it. Those are Standard's restrictions.
Modern
Can only play with cards from 8th edition onward.
Can't win before turn 4.
Can't be more than 25% of meta.
Can't take too long to play.
Cards that were dominant in past standards are banned.
Cards that are cross format dominant are banned. Though I can't understand why, if that's so, DRS, Bob, Goyf and Liliana aren't on the banned list.
There you have it. Of all the major formats, Modern has the MOST restrictions tied to it. You can deny that all you want, but those are the facts. By your own admission as to WotC's "vision" for this format, those are the restrictions.
So yes, every format has its restrictions (I swear you have to be an accountant) but Modern has the most oppressive restrictions of any format including Standard, which ironically is supposed to be the worst of all the formats.
Guess what? It's not. At least in Standard I can put together any deck I want and be 99% sure that it won't be hit by some kind of stupid ban.
I can't say that about Modern.
Legacy is my favorite format. Period.
That should paint a picture of the kind of Magic I enjoy playing/watching. I like to do powerful things. I'm not even talking combo decks because I don't play much pure combo. I especially like it my fair decks doing powerful things. I like cards like Aether Vial, Bitterblossom, Sylvan Library, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, Mother of Runes, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Knight of the Reliquary, and the list goes on.
When I play Modern, it feels watered down. The decks just aren't doing as interesting of things as I can find in Legacy. I don't really see many synergy driven decks, and when I do they just feel worse than the decks throwing the best cards in XYZ colors together. Nothing really has the feel of The Walking Dead (a deck centered on Faithless Looting and Goblin Bombardment of all things), or Goblins, or Death and Taxes. Sure, you see a lot of players trying to replicate these types of decks, but they just don't have the same oomph to them.
To be honest, I actually like the idea of the "turn 4 rule" because it benefits the types of decks I most enjoy playing. I can only imagine how strong Goblins (my first, and perhaps my favorite Legacy deck I built) would be in Legacy if the "turn 4 rule" existed in that format. But everything else about the format just feels like it's being held back by the length of the banned list. Too many unnecessary bans. And to be honest, Modern could probably self regulate itself similarly to Legacy if some of these cards were taken off. Some people will say that those cards stifle deckbuilding, but I'm a firm believer that having pillars of a format actually opens up more possibilities. In Legacy you can take a new deck idea, and because you know what kinds of archetypes you are most likely to see, you can build with that in mind. It allows you to attack the format from interesting angles, because you know where to attack from. In an unclear format its best to just pick something doing generically strong things, or noninteractive things - this can be true to the point where you are hindering yourself by trying to create something unique!
In Legacy, take a deck like Maverick as an example. The pillars of the format at the time of its introduction to the format were largely tempo strategies, and Stoneforge Mystic strategies. Deckbuilders were able to exploit a definited metagame by introducing something brand new into the format and do very well with it because it attacked the known metagame at the right angle. It's the power of Legacy, that creates pillars of the format at any given point in the metagame cycle, that gives brewers the best chance at success.
There are specific pet cards that I can only play with in Legacy, so Modern will never truly replace Legacy, but they can certainly take steps to make it a format I enjoy alongside Legacy. And years from now, when Legacy has finally played its course, I want to be able to move to Modern and find new pet cards/strategies. But as it stands, with such a lengthy banlist of cards that don't even fit the "turn 4 rule" I don't think I can.
While that's true, you can also be 100% sure you're going to have to buy new cards every 3 months to maintain your deck, and then after 6 months to a year you'll have to just get a new deck entirely.
I hate saying it because the format is so bad right now, but Modern is the future of Magic. Vintage and Legacy have too many card availability issues, which leaves Modern as the default eternal format as time goes on. Unless the playerbase drops, in which case Legacy still has a long term future.
It's not just my view, it's what I've encountered, Why bother trying to play control when it has NO CHANCE against aggro? Why play combo when everything gets banned even though you lose to 80% of the meta?
Seriously, why play anything in modern that isn't Life-Gain.dec or Aggro? ...BTW, Shouldn't Martyr.Proc have been hit if It's gaining an absurd amount of life thus stalling games, or does Serra Ascendant really win games that much?
I'm tired of playing against Aggro decks and having to apologize to the combo player who I beat on turn 1 by casting and flipping Erayo, Soratami Ascendant...
I'm tired of apologizing, I'm tired of aggro v. Aggro, I'm tired of seeing 4-5 color good stuff decks... I'm tired of decks who actually have synergy getting banned because the good-stuff decks can't beat it...
I'm tired of newer players coming over from YGO and Pokeman and having this sense of entitlement and constantly whine for "X card to be banned! It's too broken!"
Hell, I had a legacy player call for everything in Affinity to be banned, in LEGACY... Guess where he came from? three guesses...
Modern's solution is to just ban everything. Sure, lets BAN the cards that could've prevented certain other decks from becoming dominant or time-consuming. And then BAN those cards/decks too!
Modern fails at logic... The Banlist needs a complete re-working.
And yes, It feels like in the near future there won't be a choice, it'll be modern or nothing, so reform needs to happen now to ensure players won't just QUIT en-masse instead of just moving over to another format...
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You know, Modern is currently the only format I play. I don't feel like continually buying cards that are guaranteed to rotate so I don't play standard, and even if there were Legacy here that I knew of, I don't feel like spending another six hundred some dollars on lands, just to play the deck I want.
Every single time I can, I go to Modern at FNM, and if there were a Modern tournament near me, I WOULD be excited.
So, your post is completely wrong, in that yes, those people DO exist.
Well I have been playing Magic since its inception and all I want is Wotc to stand by what they set as guidelines. To be fair, Legacy is no where near a turn 3 critical format. Its closer to a turn 2 format. That is one thing that seriously angers me about Legacy.
Now there is a group of people that look at Modern and are mad because Wotc is sticking to their guns. I find that very ironic.
I feel for you if the meta you are playing in is like that. It is nothing that I have by me.
@LBS, Modern will be what it will be. The lack of combo is from the lack of combo form 8th till now. Any combo that can be built is broken and faster then the guidelines of the format. Control is weak because control in Standard is weak from 8th till now. Modern appeals to Standard players of the past 5 or so years because its the same type of Magic they play in Standard. In my opinion, thats a good thing. Its better then having Standard players just ignore older formats. I dont know many newer Standard players with any intention or desire to play Legacy, but they enjoy Modern.
When the time comes, I doubt that the wizards will keep the modern as it is today (rules) for legacy players as the only eternal sanctioned format.
I believe that the company takes into account the fact that the modern have few cards today, that these are "bizarre" rules. I believe that in the future we will see many unbans and "Turn 4" rules abandoned.
There is no guarantee the format can self regulate. The format was tested prior to its announcement. What then? just can the whole format because it lacks the policing cards? Sounds like a no win situation.
Yes in a critical turn format, you should not be able to win before that critical turn.
Did you seriously compare bolt to Jace? I can not take you serious any more.
I feel infect should have glistener elf banned now, should have been banned 6 months ago.
Cant make everyone happy. I can see you are not. Legacy is calling.
You realize bolt is more played than jace outside of vintage where bolt is uncastable vs workshop and does nothing vs dredge. Bolt is more played in legacy even though Jace is more iconic. Bolt has killed far more players than Jace. Bolt is simply a more efficient card. Jace simply FEELS better because when it's in play that's true but bolt costs 1 mana. It's like comparing jace to brainstorm. Brainstorm is clearly the better card (heck look at the math) but people remember jace more.
The fact you can't see that and you've said things like "lightning bolt is my favorite card ... decks with lightning bolts just wouldn't work in legacy" in old threads lead me to believe you're not properly evaluating cards.
If this is true Dark confidant and thoughtseize need to be banned. The turn 1 discard spells can essentially win the game on turn 1.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Even Force Spike would be good!
Daze is generally only a Tempo/Blue based combo card. It is at its best early where tempo and combp either are going off or countering key spells. Late game it is awfule which is where control wants to be.
you get to lategame by surviving early game, legacy control runs daze for this purpose
and tempo is semidead in modern anyway, i think a daze unban might be good for the format.
i'd like to see how the draw-go UWR plays out first though
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
No, I true critical turn 4 format should have zero decks winning prior to turn 4. Consistency or not. What Wotc has done is said, we are going to have a critical turn 4 format that varies, which is why all the fighting among the player base.
Legacy is a critical turn 3 format, but it has free counters that police the format so letting a few inconsistent turn 3 decks is ok. Modern does not have those policing cards, nor should they. If you add those free counters to Modern, Wotc might as well make Modern a critical turn 3 format also.
One of the great thing about Modern is it is not a blue based format and doesnt need to be because there is no FOW. (I dont hate blue, just hate formats that a color based).
@LBS I answered your questions in the post prior to yours.
Okay, well then this brings up an interesting point.
By your own admission, this format isn't what you want. At least not entirely. You want a stricter interpretation of what WotC outlined.
Given that, how many players do you think feel closer to the way you feel or closer to the way I feel? And just to clarify, I don't want Legacy Lite. I just want a card that doesn't get cast until turn 5 in a turn 4 format to come off the banned list. I think that desire is actually closer to WotC's actual actions than your desire to nuke everything that can win before turn 3 even if it's just once in a while.
The chasm between those two wants is as wide as the Grand Canyon.
So I have to wonder two things.
1. Where does WotC really fall between the two of us?
2. Where does the average player fall between the two of us?
Because you are the Ultra Conservative Republican but I am not even close to the Ultra Liberal Democrat.
Where does the player base fall and is most of it really just putting up with the format because it's not "horrible?" Heck, you yourself are not entirely happy with it. So isn't it possible that nobody is REALLY happy with it or at least very few are?
The truth is, WotC really IS straddling the fence right now. And that can never end well, especially if nobody is really loving this format.
I can tell you this for certain. The players who play Legacy LOVE playing Legacy. It is too damn expensive to play if you DON'T love it.
So where is Modern going? Is WotC going to continue to be the middle of the road independent and essentially make Modern "tolerable" or are they going to finally pick a side and cater to it?
Because right now, it looks like they're hedging their bets and trying to please everybody and we both know that can't happen.
Something eventually has to give ... one way or the other.
I have said all along, as long as Wotc keeps both of us wanting more from the format, the format will do well. Its only when they start catering to one side when they will start to have problems.
I know many that are mad Wotc has not banned more cards to bring the format closer to a true turn 4 format. I also know many that want Legacy lite.
You are very hard headed about AV. It would be abused. You just fail to see it. Players are drooling over breaking/entering so they can cascade into the breaking side and play the entering side. And you dont think players will try and abuse AV with cascade. All the high level players I know and play with understand that AV can not come off the list because it will be abused right back on to the list.
I would play Modern as it is any night of the week over Legacy. Modern is much closer to the format I want to play regularly the Legacy ever was.
If BBE was still in the format, I'd agree with you. But it isn't. And no decent player worth his salt is going to use Ardent Plea to try to cascade into Vision. Ask any pro in the world and they'll tell you that Plea is a terrible card.
That's what YOU can't see and it boggles my mind. Why would anybody want to put that crap in their deck just to have a "chance" at a turn 3 draw 3. It makes absolutely no sense.
If Shardless Agent, which at least is a decent card, was Modern legal, then yeah, I'd say AV has to stay out. I've seen what that card does in Legacy off a decent cascade spell with other great support cards.
But Ardent Plea?
Please tell me you're not serious. Because if you are, I can't possibly value your opinion as a knowledgeable Magic player.
Again, ask ANY pro if they would play Ardent Plea just to have a chance to cascade into AV. If just ONE says they would, I'll publicly come back to this very thread and admit in front of this whole forum that you were right and I was wrong.
Find me one pro who would put that piece of crap in their deck.
Just one.
You are forgetting about violent outburst. Some form of R/U/G would become instantly viable.
If people are looking at a split card to abuse it with cascade, AV would be abused also.
Looking to abuse a card and actually abusing it are two different things. If you're loading up your deck with bad cards to make another card playable, you still end up with a bad deck. The only exceptions are in Legacy where you throw a ton of bad cards together to make a great deck because the synergy between the cards (LED + Infernal Tutor as an example) is so great.
There is no synergy between those two horrible cascade cards and AV other than you MIGHT cast the one off the other. In the meantime, you have a deck filled with bad cards in a turn 4 format that will most likely end up making you lose.
Let me put it this way. No way in HELL would I play bad cascade cards to try to cast AV turn 3. I'd rather play AV by itself and be happy with a turn 5 draw 3 if I can live that long.
Your argument doesn't hold water.
BUG is the only deck in legacy that runs AV. It can do so because:
1. It has Shardless Agent. A cascade card that isn't dead if it isn't paired with AV.
2. It has Brainstorm and JTMS. Being able to manipulate the top of the library and set up a reliable cascade (as well as shipping back dead AV's) allows AV to produce value less than 5 turns later with any reliability.
3. It can be pitched to FoW when it won't be relevant in the matchup.
Modern:
1. No cascade spells that produce reasonable value in the absence a powerful cascade target.
2. Bad library manipulation. Library manipulation is expensive and not worth running simply to set up cascades.
3. No deck that wants to sacrifice 1/2 drops for an effect such as Ancestral visions.
Perhaps someone could inform me if I'm mistaken in this analysis? I can't think a way to reliably abuse cascade and AV in modern. AV also seems like a rather fair card when suspended normally (Sacrifice 1 card and 1 mana and gain 3 cards four turns later).
U Delver Fae
UR Nivix Fiend
UWB Esper Sage
G
InfectRIPU
Fissure PostRIPUR
Izzet PostRIPUBR
The Perfect Pauper StormRIPModern:
UW
EggsRIPGR Tron
Legacy:
0 Manaless Dredge
UWR Miracles
UWB Stoneblade and Deathblade
UWR Delver
UWR Landstill
That's because Bloodbraid Elf is worth a card on its own. The cascade is pure upside. It's a true 2-for-1. The same is true for Shardless Agent in Legacy.
None of the cascade cards available to you now in modern are worth a card on their own, which means they're only as good as what they cascade into. So you spend 3 mana for a random card off the top of your library. That is not good.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
stuff BBE cascaded into (in a typical GBx shell):
inquisition
thoughtseize
DRS
goyf
liliana
terminate
bolt
finks
messenger
lingering souls
things Argent Plea would cascade into (in a typical UWx shell, where it would most likely be played)
remand
mana leak
path
snapcaster mage
bolt
helix
spell snare
spell pierce
telling time (?)
sleight of hand (?)
serum visions (?)
so taking a look at those lists, aside from the obvious removal spells, ALL of the GBx cards are proactive. the majority of the UWx cards are reactive. maybe you can have an argument for esper, where you'd hit discard, but esper typically runs counters as well, which is a no go for cascade. this isn't legacy (the BUG shell) in that we have 2 cmc cards like jitte and hymn, and other card advantage spells like ponder and brainstorm to hit even when we miss AV. their counter spell is 5 mana, so they don't have to worry about it. additional manipulation means they can set up their cascades much more efficiently than serum visions.
EDIT: Seems the conversation's been moved. lol, I just can't figure out why people keep saying "Cascade!" whenever AV is mentioned for an unban... le-sigh....
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Pros:
1)More skill intensive
2)More action in the early turns
3)More diverse (both in overall number of archetypes and types of decks)
4)More interesting interactions, cards and decks
5)Logical bans and explanations of them
Cons:
1)Very expensive
2)Not a ton of support from wizards
3)Cant foil out every deck
4)Will eventually die do to Reserved List
Modern
Pros:
1)Relatively cheap to get into
2)Prevents good cards from standard from falling into the abyss of only being playable in EDH
3)Interactive games
4)Every single deck can be completely foiled out
Cons:
1)Silver Bullets often decide entire matches
2)Too many Midrange decks and midrange mirrors
3)Arbitrary bans
4)Not much local support from stores and player base outside PTQs
Modern is the long-term successor to Legacy for the title of "Everyones favorite non-rotating format" but its still not quite at a point where the community at large is willing to accept it as a fun format for everyone