Interesting question here, do you guys leave cryptic commands in against burn?
In other (non witness lock) control decks I play, they're one of the first things out, because 4 mana to their 1 is simply too much.
Is having the lock worth that much?
Regarding BUG as a potential colour combination I posted this a few days ago:
Regarding BUG I just don't really know what our big gain from it would be besides actual hard removal. When trying out BUG lists more than a year ago I never liked targeted discard because we already have 4 bad lategame draws in Vial and we have all the counters in the world to take on combo. If we really need more CA (between Command, E/Wit/Snap, Ruse, Electrolyze and the likes I honestly don't think we do) AV seems better than Bob if we don't run discard to protect him. I think a BUG list would need to look way more like a hard control list than the RUG lists that are always changing gears between midrange/control and tempo. And then you probably don't want to play a do nothing on it's own card like Vial at all (Vial is a tempo card).
I still stand by this opinion, but maybe you can prove me wrong!
I would definetely run the 4th Goyf before I'd run a Tasigur (Goyf is super strong with discard and you won't be able to cast Tas before turn 3 without Thoughtscour). I'd also play a least one removal that kills creatures that cost more than 4 (Dismember, Murderous Cut, Go for the Throat) and I agree with Etamin on some landhate for the SB so you actually have a fighting chance against Tron.
Against Tron I usually board out Roast, 2x Remand and 1x Cryptic Command.
I would board out more Remands/Cryptics but I only have 4 relevant cards to board in. The way I see it is that Remand is really only good if they wanna play Eidolon turn 2/3 or on a suspended Rift Bolt. Cryptic is clunky but a tad better than Remand and actually helps us stabilize.
On the same topic: Do put out the Vials against Jund?
Between Decay, Kommand and Pulse it's super easy for Jund to kill them, our lock is easy to disrupt with how much removal they play and Vials are aweful lategame topdecks. Reason enough?
On the mulls:
1. This one is super tricky, but I personally tend to be risky and keep the onelander if I have enough cheap cards in hand. Burn wants to start with creatures and we can deal with them for 2 turns. If we don't draw another land in time that obviously sucks but if we draw anything that produces blue (in my list every land but 2) then we are actually in an promising position.
2. I think I missed listing another land here, but even then I agree with mulling. No early interaction isn't what you want against burn.
3. I would keep too as the hand is playable and we got SV to dig for Bolt or some hate card like Kitchen Finks. Mulling seems reasonable too though.
By the way I have decided to build Bant Eldrazi (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em...and learn from them how to beat them haha).
I had most of the pieces anyway and a guy from my LGS sold me his playset of Hierarchs for 120 Euros (ex Infect player) which seems like a steal.
Maybe if I get more insight on the deck it can help us determine more weaknesses.
I'm surprised you cut the cryptics vs jund.
I feel like I'm likely to do something like cutting vials and cutting barals before anything else.
Its hard to say I guess, remand and electrolyze aren't great here, but they aren't bad.
Cryptic feels to good to cut against jund though, especially with all of the remands.
I agree, cutting Cryptics seems wrong and Electrolyze aswell. Jund is a grindfest. Command can net you CA and is a beast in the late game. Electrolyze hits their Bobs and Lilis while replacing itself or combines with Bolt to make an even trade on an opposing Goyf.
I usually board:
In
1x Huntmaster
1x Keranos
2x Stone Rain
1x Spreading Seas
Out
4x Vial
1x Remand
I'm not sure if that's correct though. I'd kinda like to board out another Remand and Tarfire but keeping in 2x Vials is stupid as you definetely want to draw them early.
Wish I had someone to test the Jund MU with.
I think I can use the slot Cage is occupying currently for something else, more versatile now though (I don't think Dredge is dead, I hope 2x Scooze+ 2x Anger of the Gods is enough if we don't see them that often anymore).
What do you guys think about Obstinate Baloth?
Good against Jund/Junk. Is he playable against Grixis? (Kommand is like a 2-3 off). Can come in against Burn. Maybe even Bant Eldrazi (interaction with Smasher is neat)?
I dislike that Shaman just shuffles stuff back in and doesn't exile. They'll be back on track quite fast.
Also what I wanted to say is that I hope I can play one less piece of Dredge hate (Grafdigger's Cage) for something that is more versatile.
Possibilities: Izzet Staticaster: Best card to fight Lingering Souls, but can also come in against Affinity, Infect, Dredge (I just realized that it kills their Bloodghasts every turn, that's awesome), Bant Eldrazi seems actually reasonable too (killing tokens and helping to kill TKS with Bolt). Obstinate Baloth: Like I said, good against Jund/Junk, Burn and possibly Bant Eldrazi and Grixis Huntmaster of the Fells: Super awesome card, good against Jund/Junk, Grixis, Burn and grindy creature decks (Abzan Company for example). Those haven't seen much play due to all the gravehate in modern SBs but I'm sure they'll come back when Dredge's metashare goes down. Stone Rain: I'm kinda missing having 3 copies since I changed one for Spreading Seas. The land destruction plan is solid against most fair deck and definitely good against Tron and Bant Eldrazi Pulse of Murasa: With less gravehate I'm more comfortable siding this in against fair decks aswell as Burn
Other ideas?
Regarding the video of Yasooka:
I watched lots of his vids. His build was really strong against Jund at the time. The thing is since then Jund has gotten cards like Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command (which deal with Vial, Kommand even generates CA), Scavenging Ooze (which hates us hard) and Grim Flayer and Tasigur, the Golden Fang (more big butted creatures that are trouble for us) while we have gotten...
pretty much nothing.
You just can't compare how he played against Jund with how we need to play against it now (one of Jund's best cards in the MU was Bloodbraid Elf)
Regarding a black splash, I think discard should be relegated to a few TS in the side. I've been testing BUG with Grim Flayer as well as a few push, decay and pulse.
I'm not at an optimal point yet but I really think Flayer is the way to go if you splash black. He's 2cmc,tramples and allows great filtering. Use him to set up graveyard abuse, rid extra vials, dig for the lock or other answers and grow goyf.
Being able to reuse maelstrom pulse has been incredible. However I miss bolt in this build.
Would you mind to post your current list?
Grim Flayer seems like the right way to go if you wanna be BUG. How do you consistently turn on Delirium?
It's been a while since I tested BUG, but I came to the same conclusion that targeted discard isn't good in the main. SB seems ok, but aren't Dispel/Countersquall just better?
Would you mind to post your current list?
Grim Flayer seems like the right way to go if you wanna be BUG. How do you consistently turn on Delirium?
It's been a while since I tested BUG, but I came to the same conclusion that targeted discard isn't good in the main. SB seems ok, but aren't Dispel/Countersquall just better?
Keep in mind this is a rough draft and I am running 3 Fatal Push solely to get it more often and evaluate it better as a card. So far, pretty stellar.
As for Flayer, I don't really look to turn Delirium on. Either I'm playing an interactive deck or I can easily turn it on once he gets through the first time.
I'm against targeted discard in the deck, I was just saying if it was to be run, it doesn't look like it belongs in the main.
I'm a little pressed for time at the moment so I don't have much else to say and can only provide this pic.
Anyway, looks like I'll be playing Eternal Command a lot more now that Probe is banned. RiP RUG Delver.
Wow 17 creatures is a lot!
I really like how this approach can be very aggressive but aren't 9 big attacking creatures a little much?
With only 20 lands I would definitely run at least the 4th SV, probably also cut 1-2 3cmc cards. Maybe even un 1-2 Thought Scours as additional cantrips and ways to get cards in the yard. Raven's Crime is probably a little cute with 20 lands too.
Also with so many Feriocious enablers Stubborn Denial looks really sweet.
Yeah I'm also sad to see RUG Delver being collateral damage, one of my favorite decks in modern.
Eternal Command is even more fun though
So I gave a version of BUG Eternal Command based on Skred_Em's list a run on cockatrice...I'm impressed!
Very fun to play with, Grim Flayer is awesome and for an unrefined list I won 4 out 5 matches (cockatrice though, not always the most skilled players there).
Differences to Skred_Em's list:
Out:
1x Grim Flayer
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Eternal Witness
1x Sultai Charm
1x Familiar's Ruse
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Won against Elves, UR Bloo (with Probe), Grixis Control and Abzan. Lost to another Abzan player. Not having Bolt to finish games is a bit annoying but this deck can do everything. It beats down pretty fast, has answers to pretty much everything AND can grind. Being able to play Stubborn Denial is awesome too, since it's one of my favorite cards in modern.
I'll probably need to get some Grim Flayers.
So I gave a version of BUG Eternal Command based on Skred_Em's list a run on cockatrice...I'm impressed!
Very fun to play with, Grim Flayer is awesome and for an unrefined list I won 4 out 5 matches (cockatrice though, not always the most skilled players there).
Differences to Skred_Em's list:
Out:
1x Grim Flayer
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Eternal Witness
1x Sultai Charm
1x Familiar's Ruse
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Won against Elves, UR Bloo (with Probe), Grixis Control and Abzan. Lost to another Abzan player. Not having Bolt to finish games is a bit annoying but this deck can do everything. It beats down pretty fast, has answers to pretty much everything AND can grind. Being able to play Stubborn Denial is awesome too, since it's one of my favorite cards in modern.
I'll probably need to get some Grim Flayers.
Awesome! I tested a bit more last night and I had come to similar conclusions. Would you mind posting the mana base?
I was having difficulty with it due to flayer needing GB on turn two.
I agree the raven's crime was a little too cute.
What do you think about sideboard? Is Spreading Seas our best answer to Tron now?
Illness in the ranks helps me since I have a lot of lingering Souls at my lgs.
Did Scour help out with delirium as much as you'd hoped?
Anyway, I'm glad to see you gave the BUG list a shot.
That's the list I used. You're right that getting GB on turn 2 is a little annoying. It's one of the reasons I play only one Flooded Grove. I'll probably cut another fetch for one more fastland. Overall I'm thinking about upping the land count to 21 as I have been clogged on mana more than once (especially when you don't have the Vial turn 1). Thoughtscour been nice to me. It can help to enable all of our beaters, is instant speed (which can be nice with Snap if you wanna hold up counters) and has helped me find that crucial Maelstrom Pulse against Souls tokens from Abzan.
Overall it seems solid but I'll still probably cut one if I should decide to play 21 lands (one reason for Thoughtscour was that it helps me playing a lower land count).
The SB was just quickly thrown together honestly. I just stumbled upon Liliana, the Last Hope and will probably give her a shot in the SB seems like a good versatile card for many MUs. I haven't played against Tron yet but Spreading Seas is definetely the plan. Together with Remand/Stubborn Denial and Cryptic I actually think we could have a pretty nice Tron MU (in comparison to other fair decks at least).
Been interested in a command deck for a long time and that BUG one looks damn fun man. Transitioning from delver and when I eventually complete a set of Goyfs I'll be on a variation of that list for sure! I'll be checking for optimizations haha
Hey everybody
Exams are starting again and I don't have much time for testing currently but I wanted to post a few thoughts on my BUG vs. my RUG list:
Bolt is awesome. I really like how the BUG version has answers to pretty much anything but even very flexible cards like Abrupt Decay can be dead in some MUs (RG Valakut, Tron). Bolt is just never dead and the same goes for most parts of my RUG list. It's something I honestly wasn't really aware about before but not having clean creature removal can actually also be an upside.
Maybe I haven't found out the perfect playstyle for BUG yet, but it usually seems like the actual lock is a lot less synergistic for the list. Without Bolt you loose reach which is very crucial to 'get there' with the lock. It basically means you need to attack at least once more, which gives your opponent another turn to find an answer. Also the lock is actually just not as necessary. RUG uses the lock to deal with problems it can't deal with otherwise (like big creatures, BUG has the answers to them). So it will need more testing to see if Vial and E-Wit are actually worth it or BUG is just better of without them. Being able to play Stubborn Denial is awesome. Fatal Push is real. And by that I mean really good at killing our Goyfs, which sucks.
I was suprised to see how easy it was to play a Tasigur without disrupting our own Snaps/E-Wits too hard. Depending on how the new meta shapes out, maybe I'll actually try out a singleton Hooting Mandrills as an additional beater that can come down cheap in RUG. Trample is very relevant too.
@Gilles
I think you need another piece of gravehate in the SB. The GGT ban toned Dredge down but it certainly didn't kill it and with everybody removing some of their hard gravehate from their SBs other graveyard dependent decks like Abzan Company may come back too.
Maybe change one Huntmaster for a Scavenging Ooze? The Scooze is solid against grindy decks like Grixis (Snap, Delve, Kommand) or Junk (Souls, shrinking Goyfs) but doubles as gravehate.
After some more testing with the BUG list I'm going back to RUG for now. It may be because I'm just more used to it but I think I prefer the playstyle of RUG. Bolt makes the transission from control to tempo just so much smoother and while being able to play Stubborn Denial is awesome, I don't think we really want to run 8 Beatsticks. It makes us weaker against fair decks (as they can just answer them 1 for 1) and Bolt/Snap/Bolt can do similar amounts of damage while more flexible and harder to interact with.
Playing BUG did however give me hope that Wizards will print one or two cards that really put us back on the map. We're so close to being there.
Hey all!
I actually found the time to participate at my LGS' FNM last night, so as always, here's a little report:
Match 1: Jeskai Nahiri 2-0
G1: I think this is actually one of our best MUs. Vial and lots of counterspells work perfectly and land destruction out of the side takes care of those pesky Celestial Colonnade. We trade resource but thanks to Vial I always keep the upper hand in counter battles and manage to get some beats in with a Goyf and a Snap.
G2: After Clique reveals me that the coast is clear I Stone Rain his Colonnade and kill another one a little later while he gives me landdrops by pathing my Finks and Goyf. With 4 more lands than he has I win all the important counter battles.
Match 2: Junk 2-0
G1: We trade resources back and forth while he's pressuring me. With exactly one life left I can establish the E-Wit/Command lock to tap down his 6/7 Goyf and Flayer for a few turns. Enough time to find some own Goyfs and Bolt/Snap/Bolt to kill him in one swing for 13.
G2: Izzet Staticaster was awesome! Killing spirit tokens, a Bob and 2x Noble Hierarch. SO MUCH VALUE. That and a Huntmaster I manage to flip 3 times let me outvalue him in the end.
Match 3: Dredge: 1-2
G1: I can't find one of my Scoozes in time and just run out of ways to deal with the endless flood of Amalgams and Bloodghasts.
G2: Anger of the Gods on turn 3 buys me enough time to establish the E-Wit/Command lock and ride it home.
G3: He goes nuts and opens with Neonate->Discard Imp->Dredge and I get to see 3x Amalgams and 1x Narcomoeba. 10 power on the board on turn 1...sure. He kills me on turn three, before I even get to cast my Anger of the Gods. Well, I guess sometimes it's someone elses lucky day.
Match 4: Esper Control 2-0
G1: We do nothing but make landdrops for the first 4 turns until I start and play a Goyf with counter back up. It's the start of a super grindy match. He resolves Sphinx Revelation for 5 but E-Wit, Snap and Familiar's Ruse actually pull me back into the game and I win it on the back of Bolt/E-Wit/Bolt/Snap/Bolt for 9 damage. Awesome game!
G2: Thanks to Clique I can resolve my SB Keranos, God of Storms. He doesn't have an answer for it and gets slowly bolted to death.
So 3-1 beating Abzan and only loosing to a magical christmas land Dredge, seems very solid and I had a lot of fun. I had three very grindy MUs, wonder if that'll stay this way in the upcoming meta. I didn't think Jeskai or Esper Control would be big contenders again but that would certainly be good for us haha.
Maindeck is pretty fix with only a few flex slots (1x Clique, 1x Scooze, Finks). SB is to deal with the surprisingly wide meta of my LGS. Ceremonious Rejection is in testing currently, Keranos should maybe be another Huntmaster, depends on how the coming meta shapes out.
If you have any questions feel free to ask. The deck is hard to pilot but super fun to play!
hi. ive been looking at this deck on and off for quite some time now. and i got a question. people might have asked this question before though. hope you dont mind answering it again. but how important is goyf in this deck? can it be swapped out with something else?
Goyf is incredibly important in pretty much any deck that plays him.
What he offers, he does so better than anything else, hence the price.
That being said, some combination of kitchen finks, scavenging ooze, perhaps even something like thing in the ice, as aggressive creatures can leave you with enough finishing power to not feel totally crippled.
That being said, this deck struggles enough as it is even with goyfs, and I think that if you do enjoy winning, don't buy into this deck if you do not expect to ever buy goyfs.
If the vial is gonne be on 3, would it make sence to play 1 of glissa the trator? Vialing her out (or just play her and kill a creature) could let you get back an artifact. But maybe the vials don't die that often?
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hi. ive been looking at this deck on and off for quite some time now. and i got a question. people might have asked this question before though. hope you dont mind answering it again. but how important is goyf in this deck? can it be swapped out with something else?
If you wanna play RUG I gotta agree with Cody. Goyf is not replaceable in those lists. He's a lot worse in the less explored Bant lists though and if there is a good Bant list my guess is that it's actually goyfless (he's just not as big as fast as in RUG because your removal doesn't put creatures in the grave). So if you're into brewing and already own same staple card like Cryptics, Vials and Snaps.
I do have all the cards except goyf. so maybe go white instead of red and use knight of the reliquary or resto angel.but still keep it eternal command? could give that a try
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In other (non witness lock) control decks I play, they're one of the first things out, because 4 mana to their 1 is simply too much.
Is having the lock worth that much?
I still stand by this opinion, but maybe you can prove me wrong!
I would definetely run the 4th Goyf before I'd run a Tasigur (Goyf is super strong with discard and you won't be able to cast Tas before turn 3 without Thoughtscour). I'd also play a least one removal that kills creatures that cost more than 4 (Dismember, Murderous Cut, Go for the Throat) and I agree with Etamin on some landhate for the SB so you actually have a fighting chance against Tron.
Against Tron I usually board out Roast, 2x Remand and 1x Cryptic Command.
I would board out more Remands/Cryptics but I only have 4 relevant cards to board in. The way I see it is that Remand is really only good if they wanna play Eidolon turn 2/3 or on a suspended Rift Bolt. Cryptic is clunky but a tad better than Remand and actually helps us stabilize.
On the same topic: Do put out the Vials against Jund?
Between Decay, Kommand and Pulse it's super easy for Jund to kill them, our lock is easy to disrupt with how much removal they play and Vials are aweful lategame topdecks. Reason enough?
On the mulls:
1. This one is super tricky, but I personally tend to be risky and keep the onelander if I have enough cheap cards in hand. Burn wants to start with creatures and we can deal with them for 2 turns. If we don't draw another land in time that obviously sucks but if we draw anything that produces blue (in my list every land but 2) then we are actually in an promising position.
2. I think I missed listing another land here, but even then I agree with mulling. No early interaction isn't what you want against burn.
3. I would keep too as the hand is playable and we got SV to dig for Bolt or some hate card like Kitchen Finks. Mulling seems reasonable too though.
By the way I have decided to build Bant Eldrazi (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em...and learn from them how to beat them haha).
I had most of the pieces anyway and a guy from my LGS sold me his playset of Hierarchs for 120 Euros (ex Infect player) which seems like a steal.
Maybe if I get more insight on the deck it can help us determine more weaknesses.
I feel like I'm likely to do something like cutting vials and cutting barals before anything else.
Its hard to say I guess, remand and electrolyze aren't great here, but they aren't bad.
Cryptic feels to good to cut against jund though, especially with all of the remands.
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Keranos
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Spreading Seas
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Spellskite
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Natural State
2x Anger of the Gods
In
1x Huntmaster
1x Keranos
2x Stone Rain
1x Spreading Seas
Out
4x Vial
1x Remand
I'm not sure if that's correct though. I'd kinda like to board out another Remand and Tarfire but keeping in 2x Vials is stupid as you definetely want to draw them early.
Wish I had someone to test the Jund MU with.
I think I can use the slot Cage is occupying currently for something else, more versatile now though (I don't think Dredge is dead, I hope 2x Scooze+ 2x Anger of the Gods is enough if we don't see them that often anymore).
What do you guys think about Obstinate Baloth?
Good against Jund/Junk. Is he playable against Grixis? (Kommand is like a 2-3 off). Can come in against Burn. Maybe even Bant Eldrazi (interaction with Smasher is neat)?
I dislike that Shaman just shuffles stuff back in and doesn't exile. They'll be back on track quite fast.
Also what I wanted to say is that I hope I can play one less piece of Dredge hate (Grafdigger's Cage) for something that is more versatile.
Possibilities:
Izzet Staticaster: Best card to fight Lingering Souls, but can also come in against Affinity, Infect, Dredge (I just realized that it kills their Bloodghasts every turn, that's awesome), Bant Eldrazi seems actually reasonable too (killing tokens and helping to kill TKS with Bolt).
Obstinate Baloth: Like I said, good against Jund/Junk, Burn and possibly Bant Eldrazi and Grixis
Huntmaster of the Fells: Super awesome card, good against Jund/Junk, Grixis, Burn and grindy creature decks (Abzan Company for example). Those haven't seen much play due to all the gravehate in modern SBs but I'm sure they'll come back when Dredge's metashare goes down.
Stone Rain: I'm kinda missing having 3 copies since I changed one for Spreading Seas. The land destruction plan is solid against most fair deck and definitely good against Tron and Bant Eldrazi
Pulse of Murasa: With less gravehate I'm more comfortable siding this in against fair decks aswell as Burn
Other ideas?
Regarding the video of Yasooka:
I watched lots of his vids. His build was really strong against Jund at the time. The thing is since then Jund has gotten cards like Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command (which deal with Vial, Kommand even generates CA), Scavenging Ooze (which hates us hard) and Grim Flayer and Tasigur, the Golden Fang (more big butted creatures that are trouble for us) while we have gotten...
pretty much nothing.
You just can't compare how he played against Jund with how we need to play against it now (one of Jund's best cards in the MU was Bloodbraid Elf)
I'm not at an optimal point yet but I really think Flayer is the way to go if you splash black. He's 2cmc,tramples and allows great filtering. Use him to set up graveyard abuse, rid extra vials, dig for the lock or other answers and grow goyf.
Being able to reuse maelstrom pulse has been incredible. However I miss bolt in this build.
Grim Flayer seems like the right way to go if you wanna be BUG. How do you consistently turn on Delirium?
It's been a while since I tested BUG, but I came to the same conclusion that targeted discard isn't good in the main. SB seems ok, but aren't Dispel/Countersquall just better?
Keep in mind this is a rough draft and I am running 3 Fatal Push solely to get it more often and evaluate it better as a card. So far, pretty stellar.
As for Flayer, I don't really look to turn Delirium on. Either I'm playing an interactive deck or I can easily turn it on once he gets through the first time.
I'm against targeted discard in the deck, I was just saying if it was to be run, it doesn't look like it belongs in the main.
I'm a little pressed for time at the moment so I don't have much else to say and can only provide this pic.
Anyway, looks like I'll be playing Eternal Command a lot more now that Probe is banned. RiP RUG Delver.
I really like how this approach can be very aggressive but aren't 9 big attacking creatures a little much?
With only 20 lands I would definitely run at least the 4th SV, probably also cut 1-2 3cmc cards. Maybe even un 1-2 Thought Scours as additional cantrips and ways to get cards in the yard. Raven's Crime is probably a little cute with 20 lands too.
Also with so many Feriocious enablers Stubborn Denial looks really sweet.
Yeah I'm also sad to see RUG Delver being collateral damage, one of my favorite decks in modern.
Eternal Command is even more fun though
Very fun to play with, Grim Flayer is awesome and for an unrefined list I won 4 out 5 matches (cockatrice though, not always the most skilled players there).
Differences to Skred_Em's list:
Out:
1x Grim Flayer
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Eternal Witness
1x Sultai Charm
1x Familiar's Ruse
1x Maelstrom Pulse
In:
2x Thought Scour
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Murderous Cut
1x Spell Snare
2x Stubborn Denial
And some changes in the land base.
Won against Elves, UR Bloo (with Probe), Grixis Control and Abzan. Lost to another Abzan player. Not having Bolt to finish games is a bit annoying but this deck can do everything. It beats down pretty fast, has answers to pretty much everything AND can grind. Being able to play Stubborn Denial is awesome too, since it's one of my favorite cards in modern.
I'll probably need to get some Grim Flayers.
Awesome! I tested a bit more last night and I had come to similar conclusions. Would you mind posting the mana base?
I was having difficulty with it due to flayer needing GB on turn two.
I agree the raven's crime was a little too cute.
What do you think about sideboard? Is Spreading Seas our best answer to Tron now?
Illness in the ranks helps me since I have a lot of lingering Souls at my lgs.
Did Scour help out with delirium as much as you'd hoped?
Anyway, I'm glad to see you gave the BUG list a shot.
13 Creature
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Grim Flayer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Eternal Witness
17 Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Thought Scour
3 Remand
3 Fatal Blow
3 Cryptic Command
1 Murderous Cut
1 Spell Snare
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Flooded Grove
1 Darkslick Shores
6 Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Obstinate Baloth
4 Spreading Seas
1 Stubborn Denial
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Damnation
That's the list I used. You're right that getting GB on turn 2 is a little annoying. It's one of the reasons I play only one Flooded Grove. I'll probably cut another fetch for one more fastland. Overall I'm thinking about upping the land count to 21 as I have been clogged on mana more than once (especially when you don't have the Vial turn 1).
Thoughtscour been nice to me. It can help to enable all of our beaters, is instant speed (which can be nice with Snap if you wanna hold up counters) and has helped me find that crucial Maelstrom Pulse against Souls tokens from Abzan.
Overall it seems solid but I'll still probably cut one if I should decide to play 21 lands (one reason for Thoughtscour was that it helps me playing a lower land count).
The SB was just quickly thrown together honestly. I just stumbled upon Liliana, the Last Hope and will probably give her a shot in the SB seems like a good versatile card for many MUs. I haven't played against Tron yet but Spreading Seas is definetely the plan. Together with Remand/Stubborn Denial and Cryptic I actually think we could have a pretty nice Tron MU (in comparison to other fair decks at least).
Exams are starting again and I don't have much time for testing currently but I wanted to post a few thoughts on my BUG vs. my RUG list:
Bolt is awesome. I really like how the BUG version has answers to pretty much anything but even very flexible cards like Abrupt Decay can be dead in some MUs (RG Valakut, Tron). Bolt is just never dead and the same goes for most parts of my RUG list. It's something I honestly wasn't really aware about before but not having clean creature removal can actually also be an upside.
Maybe I haven't found out the perfect playstyle for BUG yet, but it usually seems like the actual lock is a lot less synergistic for the list. Without Bolt you loose reach which is very crucial to 'get there' with the lock. It basically means you need to attack at least once more, which gives your opponent another turn to find an answer. Also the lock is actually just not as necessary. RUG uses the lock to deal with problems it can't deal with otherwise (like big creatures, BUG has the answers to them). So it will need more testing to see if Vial and E-Wit are actually worth it or BUG is just better of without them. Being able to play Stubborn Denial is awesome.
Fatal Push is real. And by that I mean really good at killing our Goyfs, which sucks.
I was suprised to see how easy it was to play a Tasigur without disrupting our own Snaps/E-Wits too hard. Depending on how the new meta shapes out, maybe I'll actually try out a singleton Hooting Mandrills as an additional beater that can come down cheap in RUG. Trample is very relevant too.
@Gilles
I think you need another piece of gravehate in the SB. The GGT ban toned Dredge down but it certainly didn't kill it and with everybody removing some of their hard gravehate from their SBs other graveyard dependent decks like Abzan Company may come back too.
Maybe change one Huntmaster for a Scavenging Ooze? The Scooze is solid against grindy decks like Grixis (Snap, Delve, Kommand) or Junk (Souls, shrinking Goyfs) but doubles as gravehate.
Playing BUG did however give me hope that Wizards will print one or two cards that really put us back on the map. We're so close to being there.
I actually found the time to participate at my LGS' FNM last night, so as always, here's a little report:
Match 1: Jeskai Nahiri 2-0
G1: I think this is actually one of our best MUs. Vial and lots of counterspells work perfectly and land destruction out of the side takes care of those pesky Celestial Colonnade. We trade resource but thanks to Vial I always keep the upper hand in counter battles and manage to get some beats in with a Goyf and a Snap.
G2: After Clique reveals me that the coast is clear I Stone Rain his Colonnade and kill another one a little later while he gives me landdrops by pathing my Finks and Goyf. With 4 more lands than he has I win all the important counter battles.
Match 2: Junk 2-0
G1: We trade resources back and forth while he's pressuring me. With exactly one life left I can establish the E-Wit/Command lock to tap down his 6/7 Goyf and Flayer for a few turns. Enough time to find some own Goyfs and Bolt/Snap/Bolt to kill him in one swing for 13.
G2: Izzet Staticaster was awesome! Killing spirit tokens, a Bob and 2x Noble Hierarch. SO MUCH VALUE. That and a Huntmaster I manage to flip 3 times let me outvalue him in the end.
Match 3: Dredge: 1-2
G1: I can't find one of my Scoozes in time and just run out of ways to deal with the endless flood of Amalgams and Bloodghasts.
G2: Anger of the Gods on turn 3 buys me enough time to establish the E-Wit/Command lock and ride it home.
G3: He goes nuts and opens with Neonate->Discard Imp->Dredge and I get to see 3x Amalgams and 1x Narcomoeba. 10 power on the board on turn 1...sure. He kills me on turn three, before I even get to cast my Anger of the Gods. Well, I guess sometimes it's someone elses lucky day.
Match 4: Esper Control 2-0
G1: We do nothing but make landdrops for the first 4 turns until I start and play a Goyf with counter back up. It's the start of a super grindy match. He resolves Sphinx Revelation for 5 but E-Wit, Snap and Familiar's Ruse actually pull me back into the game and I win it on the back of Bolt/E-Wit/Bolt/Snap/Bolt for 9 damage. Awesome game!
G2: Thanks to Clique I can resolve my SB Keranos, God of Storms. He doesn't have an answer for it and gets slowly bolted to death.
So 3-1 beating Abzan and only loosing to a magical christmas land Dredge, seems very solid and I had a lot of fun. I had three very grindy MUs, wonder if that'll stay this way in the upcoming meta. I didn't think Jeskai or Esper Control would be big contenders again but that would certainly be good for us haha.
4x Goyf
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Vendilion Clique
Spells(26):
4x Aether Vial
4x Serum Visions
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Snare
3x Cryptic Command
2x Familiar's Ruse
3x Remand
1x Tarfire
1x Electrolyze
1x Roast
1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
3x Island
1x Forest
2x Breeding Pool
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Flooded Grove
2x Spirebluff Canal
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Spellskite
1x Dispel
1x Keranos, God of Storms
2x Stone Rain
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Negate
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Natural State
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Spreading Seas
Maindeck is pretty fix with only a few flex slots (1x Clique, 1x Scooze, Finks). SB is to deal with the surprisingly wide meta of my LGS. Ceremonious Rejection is in testing currently, Keranos should maybe be another Huntmaster, depends on how the coming meta shapes out.
If you have any questions feel free to ask. The deck is hard to pilot but super fun to play!
What he offers, he does so better than anything else, hence the price.
That being said, some combination of kitchen finks, scavenging ooze, perhaps even something like thing in the ice, as aggressive creatures can leave you with enough finishing power to not feel totally crippled.
That being said, this deck struggles enough as it is even with goyfs, and I think that if you do enjoy winning, don't buy into this deck if you do not expect to ever buy goyfs.
We're weaker to graveyard hate than artifact hate, especially give that stony silence doesn't destroy.
Glissa looping capsule/ee in a bug deck is decent, but I'm not sure its really what this deck needs.
If you wanna play RUG I gotta agree with Cody. Goyf is not replaceable in those lists. He's a lot worse in the less explored Bant lists though and if there is a good Bant list my guess is that it's actually goyfless (he's just not as big as fast as in RUG because your removal doesn't put creatures in the grave). So if you're into brewing and already own same staple card like Cryptics, Vials and Snaps.