Another Spell Snare is rarely wrong, although I'd say playing another creature would probably better (13 is on the low side and we usually try to play more creatures to make better use out of Vial) Maybe change one Electrolyze for Forked Bolt for more early removal, while still super good against Affinity, Elves, Souls tokens etc.?
Creatures could be another Clique (especially good against Tron and blue based control decks), Kitchen Finks (very good against Burn, solid against Death Shadow and other midrange decks without PtE), some people like to play Huntmaster main as well.
It's been a long while but I'm thinking about bringing Eternal Command to my FNM again this weekend.
What are your opinions on Censor? Started to run 1 main lately but didn't see it very often in test matches yet.
In theory I really like to be able to hold up a counter turn 2 that's also a cantrip and in the yard it should slow down our opponents a bit as they need to play around it, if we have a Vial on 2 or 4 mana open. I also like more ways to draw through our deck, as it makes hitting our 1-offs more reliable.
I'm not sure if it's powerful enough in itself though, probably Remand will just turnout better for us usually.
Any other cards from Amonkhet that got you interested?
I'm super interested in running As Foretold in this deck. From what I understand, ewitness + cryptic will keep your hand full, and as foretold will eventually let you power out this synergy faster.
You'd probably have to run ancestral vision alongside it though
I don't see AF having a place in this deck. Aether Vial is just better for us, it comes down earlier and enables our tempo game. AF does not. AF is a build around card, I'm not even sure if it's worth it to just run it with AV, that's a nice synergy but nothing backbreaking in modern. If there is a good AF build out there, I'm pretty sure it also abuses Restore Balance.
It seems like the inherent problem with the deck is due to the deckbuilding friction between snapcaster and aether vial. Snap wants plenty of spells, while vial wants plenty of creatures. However, I imagine that when the deck gives you the right draws, it can do amazing things. If it were possible to cut snaps, then you could go with a creature heavy build, but snaps seem to be one of the best redundancy options for cryptics...
Just thinking out loud though. I need to either playtest the deck myself, or get an opinion from an experienced pilot of the deck like yourself.
I highly advise you to give the deck a try (just proxy it up) to really get a feeling on how it plays out. It's a cliché for nontiered decks but Eternal Command is really skill intensive and rewards you a lot for knowing your deck and your opponents decks, so keep that in mind during the first games you're playing.
Overall though, I think you analyzed pretty well that there's a friction between Snapcaster and Vial. Cutting Snapcaster is not an option and thankfully we tend to bounce our own creatures quite a few times between Cryptic, Ruse and other stuff which virtually increases the number of creatures in our deck for Vial. I still think playing a few more creatures would be good though, something reasonably costed that loots upon etb could be very nice for example.
Due to life stuff I haven't been playing much recently but finally found the time to bring Eternal Command to FNM again.
This is the list I was playing:
Like I said I didn't really play for about a month. I know Death Shadow decks are the new hot thing and I tried to adjust my list a little to reflect that (Vapor Snag main). I also wanted to try out Censor, getting rid of a Tarfire and singleton Traverse the Ulvenwald for it, ending up with a more tempo orientated build.
And here's how it went down:
Match 1: Abzan Company (with Vizier/Devoted Druid) 2-1
G1: Ship first hand, keep second with only 1 land but SV and interaction, scry Island on top. Opponent establishes his board while I struggle to find a red source with Bolt, Snap and Electrolyze in hand. Find the red source just in time to prevent him from going off with Vizier+Druid+Recruiter. I take the chance to kill his Scooze that targets my Bolt EoT with Snap+that Bolt, with only two mana open (Snap in hand+ another Bolt in grave) he plays an Eternal Witness gets back Vizier and goes off.
G2: Keep 7 with Vial, Bolt, Huntmaster, Cryptic and lands, he starts slow without any manadorks. I can kill his creatures one by one until Huntmaster takes over the game with Cryptic and Dispel up.
G3: Keep 1 lander with 2x Bolt, 2x Remand, Vial and Goyf. Don’t kill his turn 1 Hierarch but play Vial to get my mana going. Find my second land, kill his Druid, we start to exchange cards but he’s stuck on 2 lands and I can keep killing his dorks with Bolt, Snap and Electrolyze while starting to beat down with a Clique and ride it home on the back of Remands and Cryptic.
Match 2: Burn 2-1
G1: Keep Bolt, Finks, Vapor Snag, Cryptic and lands. He’s on the play, opens with Swiftspear, follows it up with 2x Lava Spike, I Snag the Swifty (should have Bolted in response to the 2nd Spike but won’t be punished as I can kill Swiftspear next turn). I’m down to 4 but finally have enough breathing room to cast Finks (he’s down to one card). With Cryptic, Spell Snare, Snap and Scooze in hand I know I have the tools to stabilize, just need to time them right. Manage to do exactly that by playing very careful (not attacking, not playing Scooze to keep mana open) until he makes his move.
G2: Keep 6 with Censor, Goyf, Spell Snare and Snap. He just overruns me with the nut hand: Guide into Swiftspear + 3 Lava Spike + 2 Bolt are just too much.
G3: Keep 6 of Bolt, two lands, Vial, SV and Finks. Play Vial turn 1 and opponent only plays Lava Spike but no creature. I don’t care that much about his Eidolon either as I can vial in my Goyf, followed by Finks and a Clique, which puts him under a lot of pressure as his own spells get taxed by Eidolon with which he needs to chump block shortly after. Next turn I win with my attackers.
Match 3: GR Ponza 2-0
G1: Mull to 6, keep onelander with Vial, Bolt, Snap, Finks, Clique. He opens with Arbor Elf, I bolt it, which slows him down a bit. I find my 2nd land but struggle to find more for a while. Thankfully he doesn’t draw land destruction and I can kill his bombs (Chandra, Huntmaster etc.) while ticking up my Vial. I’m behind all game until I hit my 4th land and establish the softlock to hold him back long enough that I can finish him with my vialed in creatures.
G2: Keep seven of Goyf, Remand, Stone Rain, and 4 lands. Good hand if he doesn’t have a turn 1 Dork. He doesn’t and I can just easily answer all his stuff while beating down with first one and then two Goyfs.
Match 4: Death Shadow Jund 1-2
G1: Mull to 5 and keep Vial, land, SV, Snap and Clique. He discards my Vial and my SV doesn’t find any lands and when I finally make my 2nd land drop on turn 3 I’m already way too far behind, staring down two Goyfs.
G2: Keep 7 of SV, 2x Goyf, 2 lands, Negate and Snap. SV finds me Vapor Snag, Snap gets stripped away as we start to exchange resources, him aggressively lowering his life total until he’s on 7 and the board is stalled between his 6/6 Shadow and my 5/6 Goyf for a few turns we both spend topdecking until I find Huntmaster of the Fells which I can ride to victory.
G3: Keep 6 of 2 lands, Vial, Goyf, Snap and Censor. He shreds my hand with 3 discard spells but can’t follow them up with a clock and we are topdecking again. Kitchen Finks and Cryptic hold him back for a while but he draws super hot with 3 Shadows over 4 draws and I’m just overwhelmed.
Overall a very solid performance and a fun night.
I don't think I like to play with only 20 lands. Before I had Traverse which pseudo counted as one as well but I had to keep onelanders too often in my opinion. I hoped the additional cantripping from Censor would make up for that a little but I didn't really see the card often enough to make a decision if I like it or not yet.
The Death Shadow MU felt okay, not super good but not really bad either. Will need some more testing and sideboard adjustments.
Any tips for SB cards against Death Shadow for me? How good are Engineered Explosives? Does Surgical Extraction make an impact? Has anyone tried out Threats of Disloyalty?
Thoughts, ideas and questions are greatly appreciated!
My main deck is similar, differences being +1 basic mountain, -2 censor (don't own so can't test but am interested in doing so for sure - possibly up to 4), +1 Cryptic Command +1 Remand -1 Scooze (this card is amazing and takes over some matchups but is a literal bear in some, could see two but happy with 1).
I have hardly played DS matchup, it seems 'fine' barring their nut hand. Seems like we need to be the control, and scrap a kill together with Cryptic tapping and/or a flurry of bolts and snaps. 1 of threads seems fine. modern is such a crapshoot facing DS once is about all you need expect.
Having just picked the deck back up (was my first modern deck) I only have one recent result, 3-1 at LGS event 2-0 vs jeskai saheeli, 2-0 vs casual random deck, 2-0 vs
Fish, and 1-2 vs burn (g3 I shuffled my lethal three card hand away when fetching! Something I've never done). Deck felt excellent, lock came up once but was not essential by any means.
Finks seems unexciting but I have not played the card much at all so don't feel qualified to say. How do you rate it in this archetype ?
I would play one EE if I owned one, as a flexible good stuff card.
I play two Surgical, card is nice with snaps and wit.
Ruse was awesome, wish we had a value 1/2 drop that we could run out (although that is fairly offplan to begin with ):D
I ran a single Tracker cause I think the card is insane.
I don't think it fits perfectly with the deck , but it does allow you to leave Vial on three, and crack clues at instant speed - which was awesome for me vs merfolk. Even when he was tidebinder tapped he drew me three (game winning) cards.
Longtime lurker.. I picked up the deck recently and started messing around with it and thought the new Nissa could be cool in this. Still playtesting so nothing to report yet. I only play at FNM level so take my future reports with a grain of salt.
I've been having a hard time with Death's Shadow and looked at Rapid hybridization as my hard removal. Sideboard looks like this
@stickymitten
Sadly I don't have much time to play currently, but I moved away from the Censors already. I ended up cycling them in 10 out of 12 cases where I drew them. Instead I replaced them with a Traverse again and a Hieroglyphic Illumination. Makes me really wish Opt was legal in modern. Maybe I'll replace Illumination with the 4th Command though. Or start to try out Repeal.
Scavenging Ooze aswell as Finks are meta calls but also individually good cards. I got a lot of Burn at my LGS and both of them are brilliant at stabilizing against that deck (Familiar's Ruse on a persisted Finks feels soooo sweet), while also being solid in other MUs.
Surgical is a very solid card but it's a lot better if you also have targeted discard. Without discard it seems a lot worse against many combo decks and it's also not really good against DSJ because it is actually pretty hard for us to get one of their threats into the grave.
Totally agree on the 1/2 drop Ruse issue, it's really what this deck needs to get tiered again in my opinion.
I don't know how experienced you are with the deck, but one of the common mistakes when people pick it up seems to be that they take the control/CA role too often, trying to get into the late game and establish the lock, when they should be just beating down with Goyf and play tempo instead.
The lock is a nice out to some strategies but quite fragile and Eternal Command's real strength is to beat down while countering stuff and putting in even more pressure with Vial just to finish with some Bolts or Cryptic->tap.
@jkam19
Welcome!
Very solid list, I personally actually prefer Molten Rain/Stone Rain to Fulminator because we can cast it again with Snapcaster.
I don't like Rapid Hybridization against Death Shadow. It still leaves them with a 3/3 that blocks our own attackers or needs to be bolted and we want to sandbag our bolts until they bring themselves down enough in life that we can set up a turn with Bolts/Snap/E-Wit/vialed in Goyf/tap down Cryptic to win.
Against what do you bring in Tormod's Crypt? Because in my experience Surgical Extraction and Scavenging Ooze have usually been better.
@Rayo
Interesting re: Censor, makes sense. I have been playing it on xmage and felt about the same (majority of the time it cycled).
I am running 4 commands and liking it :).
I will try a traverse, have liked the card a lot in other RUG variants. Repeal feels a little too controly to me - snag is mostly the same and more efficient.
Hieroglyphic Illumination is actually a pretty nice idea, although thirst may just be better - could run a Filigree Familiar over the finks too.
Confirmed ruse is sweeet, I usually side it out vs removal heavy decks but it's been great as a 1 of.
Agreed, I would never bring in surgical vs DSJ, I like all the 2 for 1s like Keranos and huntmaster + whatever removal we could theoretically bring in - I have found that DSJ is essentially faster Jund with a 1 mana 7/7. Your point about discard is a good one, I hardly ever bring in surgical - just against dredge, grishoalbrand and thopter sword I guess. I have 2 surgical 1 anger as is, but will consider replacing the surgicals.
Have played on and off since shortly after Shota brewed the deck. Totally agree, the deck is primarily a tempo deck that leverages a mana advantage (vial). Tracker was included for FNM because I released I had a flex slot and didn't want to run 2nd electrolyze/snag, and hadn't considered Traverse, it's not in the deck anymore.
Some other spice I am considering - Spellstutter Sprite, no idea how good it would be, but is indeed a good tempo card. Will report back once ive played some games with it.
I don't really like 4 cmc draw spells in this deck (Steam Augury would probably be better, by the way you don't need to link to gatherer when you put around the cardname, you can find a shortcut for that above the writing box).
The idea behind Illumination was basically that I actually liked to have instant speed cantrips that can also act as something else in Censor, the 'act as something else part' was just not good enough. I pretty much always cylce Illumination when I have the opportunity, but can snap or witness it back later if the game gets grindy.
We run a lot of singletons because Snapcaster and E-Wit can abuse a wide range of spells very good. To find the right spell at the right time more cantrip are awesome.
Which also brings me to Repeal. Cantrips are awesome.
I think overall Filigree Familiar is a worse card than Finks. Finks gains more life, is two bodies, synergizes with Ruse and is a 7 turn clock as opposed to a 10 turn clock.
I tried out SSS a while ago, was not really impressed then, but with DS running around the card seems better positioned. Counter a Traverse, Discard spell or Death's Shadow and leave me with a blocker? Seems sweet.
Repeal is probably better then FF on average, and we have plenty of grindy sideboard options, will try it. Letting them choose just seems so much worse, hence I prefer FF to steam. We don't want raw CA as you said, just enough ways to tempo them out with the right tools in the form of 1 ofs.
Fair comments re: familiar, I want a 14th creature and atm its between sprite and a 3rd clique. Yea that was my thinking, very good vs DS.
Current sideboard is: 1 x Anger of the Gods 1 x Izzet Staticcaster 2 x Dispel 1 x Negate 1 x Pithing Needle 1 x Spreading Seas 1 x Ceremonious Rejection 1 x Ancient Grudge 1 x Natural State 1 x Keranos, God of Storms 1 x Huntmaster of the Fells 2 x Surgical Extraction 1 x Pulse of Murasa
Pulse and Ceremonious are being tested. Pulse is for burn and grindy matchups as a third regrowth.
Thoughts? Numbers definitely feel like they need tweaking, have been trying to map some general sideboard plans and have some awkward tension, probably also because I haven't yet got the best feel for some of the key matchups.
What do you bring the Pithing Needle in against?
Pulse of Murasa is an awesome card but I don't really like bringing in more cards that rely on the graveyard after boarding.
I played Keranos for a long while too, but he's best against grindy BGx decks, which there just aren't running a lot around currently. I think that spot can be used better for something else.
Maybe bring in another sweeper for him as 2 (Anger and Staticaster) are really not much. a second Anger would be very good against Collected Company decks (Abzan and Elves) as well as Dredge, while also being solid against Affinity and even Merfolk.
Also only 1 card to interact with opposing lands seems not enough to me.
Pithing needle is probably just a hold over from legacy, I bring it in vs decks that are more or less all in on walkers, like Nahiri, Saheeli, as well as Tron, Affinity (it's a 1cmc inkmoth/sometimes cranial answer), Ad Nauseum (theoretically, havent played this matchup in forever but it names lightning storm), Lantern (if I ever played it). That's all I can think of atm, I like the card a lot but could be dissuaded.
Good point re: Pulse, GY hate is tough.
Second Huntmaster would probably be better then Keranos. I have also used him for ages and my liking the card has probably kept it around longer then I should do. While two sweepers is on the low end, I would say that Anger is relatively hard for us to cast, and that between snap/witness removal we have quite a good tempo plan vs those type of decks without needing to lean as heavily on sweepers. Also, electrolyze main is sometimes a good impression of a sweeper. Also, I would be hesitant to swap Keranos for a non-grindy card as my meta has a fair bit of UW/random grindy control decks, and only having 1 card to bring in seems low.
Re: land hate, for tron I have ceremonious, negate, needle, seas, grudge, state which seems like enough. For valakut (which I havent played much) I feel like the deck just needs to tempo them out and get them dead, and stone rain is just a three mana kill 1 valakut, molten pinnacle, which seems too inefficient. Would need to play vs Valakut more to say for sure.
The awesome thing about Stone Rain and the likes is that they are actually pretty good against midrange decks too. Keeping UW controls land count lower is good and actually one of the best answers to Celestial Colonnade..I agree on Valakut though and start to think that Spreading Seas is actually the best land hate for us in the current meta.
I brought the deck to FNM again yesterday and won the whole thing!
This is the list I was playing:
And here's a report:
Match 1: Grixis Shadow 2-0
Game 1: Keep Vial, 2x Snaps, 2x Bolts, 2x lands on the play. He continues to play targeted discard but gets stuck on 1 land for 2 turns. A tempo loss he can’t compensate. Remand is brutal if you opponent is on 1 land.
Game 2: Keep Goyf, 2 SV, Cryptic and 3 lands. He discards my Cryptic, Pushes my Goyf. Discards my Threads of Disloyalty and uses Surgical on my Goyf, knowing I have another one in hand. I use Traverse to find Eternal Witness and can exile his Surgical and a Push with Scooze, which gets Terminated. My opponent sees that E-Wit+Traverse easily spirals out of control and uses Snap+Thoughtseize to get rid of it, going down to 3 life in process (talked with him afterwards about it, I think the play was correct, because even with 5 life if I topdeck a bolt he’s dead to it plus E-Wit and Traverse would have found me another Traverse, then a Snap which all would kill him if I had drawn a Bolt over the next few turns). He lands a Tasigur afterwards but my Remand draws me into the Bolt that wins the game after he tapped out to cast Tasigur again.
Match 2: Elves 2-0
Game 1: Keep Bolt, Vial, Snap, Remand, 3 lands on the draw. Bolt his dork, Snap->Bolt his Archdruid on turn 3. Electrolyze+Familiar’s Ruse on his Company, getting back Snap to play Electrolyze again leaves him with no board and only 1 card in hand. He never gets back into the game.
Game 2: Keep Bolt, Anger, Snap, Cryptic, Spell Snare, 2 lands. Spell Snare his Rest in Peace and Bolt his Heritage druid to keep him from spiraling out of control. Then cast Anger on turn four with Dispel up, which counters his Chord. A topdecked Company keeps him in the game for a while but Snapcaster->Anger of the Gods ends his efforts.
Match 3: Naya Burn: 2-1
Game 1: Keep Vial, Scooze, E-Wit, SV and 2 lands on the play. He lands 2 Swiftspears and has me quickly down to 9 but I can Bolt one and Spell Snare his Atarka’s Command next turn. My vialed in Scooze gains me 1 life and eats a Bolt. Next turn Snap->Bolt kills the other Swiftspear and leaves me at 8. Draw and play Goyf, counter his Boros Charm with Spell Snare thanks to vialed in E-Wit which is enough to get there in 2 attacks.
Game 2: Mull to 5 keep 2 lands, Bolt, Dispel, E-Wit. I try to fight back but draw 3 lands in a row and get overrun by 2x Goblin Guides followed by Atarka’s Command, Boros Charm and Bolts.
Game 3: Keep 7 of Bolt, Spellskite, Huntmaster, SV and 3 lands. My opponent opens with a Swiftspear and gets then stuck on one land for a few turns and simply Lava Spikes me twice. I play Huntmaster with Spellskite on the field and start flipping him while keeping up Cryptic. Too much for him.
Game 4: Eldrazi Tron 2-0
Game 1: Keep Vial, E-Wit, Goyf, Remand, SV, 2x lands on the draw. He starts with a Temple and Map but misses his second land drop which gives me enough time to Remand his turn 4 TKS while I start beating down with Goyf to get the Cryptic lock online on my turn 4, which I ride to victory.
Game 2: Keep 7 of Remand, Goyf, Clique, Ancient Grudge and 3 lands. I Remand his turn 3 TKS and Clique him next turn at the end of his draw step to stare down 2x Smashers, Karn, All is Dust and a Map. I choose the TKS and map finds his 2nd Tron piece. I topdeck a Snapcaster, which buys me another turn and 2 draws, one of them is Cryptic, I counter draw his Smasher. SV finds me another Cryptic which counters his All is Dust, I have him down to 7 when he resolves Karn and exiles Clique. I attack him for 2 and play Goyf with a Bolt in hand, knowing all I need is another Snap, E-Wit or Bolt to win this. He drops Smasher and Endbringer, has me down to 3 when I topdeck Vapor Snag, return my own Snap to hand and bolt him for the win.
Super intense game and awesome finish for a super fun and successful night!
I will try Stone Rain, my friend does always bring in fulms vs UW control to some success (in DS aggro), so perhaps a similar principle applys to us. Although I would say we are less on the aggro, more on the control end of the spectrum.
Congrats! Some sick plays there, must have been satisfying to see those winning lines! Do you have any thoughts as to potential changes to SB/MB? Under/overperformers?
Thanks!
Being able to protect my Huntmaster with Spellskite against Burn was pretty sweet!
Although it's on an all time low Lightning Bolt is still an all star in this deck and enough reason for me to stay in RUG. He's a major reason we can switch so easily between control/CA mode and tempo/beatdown.
I brought in Threads of Disloyalty against Grixis Shadow (because it's my new tech for DS) just to realize it's a lot worse against Grixis than Jund, you can only target 4 of their main threads and even then, sometimes my life total would be 13+ so the card is actually pretty niche against Grixis. It's obviously better against Jund, but overall I don't like that I can bring it in against pretty much only one deck in the current meta so that goes out.
Back to finding a nice SB card against DS. Next card I'll try is...Redirect.
I saw somebody suggesting it on reddit and really want to try it out. While I wish it would cost one less, it still seems like a must-discard-card for them because playing around it is pretty tough when so many cards of their deck get affected by it. You wanna Thoughtseize me? Nah, I'd rather see your hand and have you discard a card. Push my Goyf? Nope, push your Goyf! You wanna snipe my Snap and let me discard a card? How about you get 2 damage and discard a card!
Also I can bring in Redirect against other decks too. Burn wants to Searing Blaze me? How about no. And I'm already looking forward to the face my opponent will make when I redirect his Ancestral Vision!
Yea good observation re: grixis vs jund DS, threads does seem very narrow. Agreed, bolt is perfect for this deck, dont think any other color combination is worth what you lose. Redirect is interesting, again narrow, definitely will lead to some blowouts as described. I find that going wide is good vs DS, so long as we have the time we have higher card quality.
Brief FNM report from tonight:
BW Tokens (2-0)
He played a bunch of flying tokens (spectral procession, midnight haunting, souls), and then randomly some ensnaring bridge. First game I remanded some tokens, deployed threats and countered planeswalkers, then went for cryptic tap to swing with lethal goyf and snap. Second game he had two bridges and two leylines in play, went draw go for a while with huge board states (including Keranos on my side), eventually went to time, drew ancient grudge on t4 and killed both bridges and swung for lethal (Keranos had steadily killed his board). SB -2 Clique -1 Vapor Snag +1 Grudge +1 Keranos +1 Izzet Staticcaster
DS Jund (2-1)
First game he was land light so i tried to tempo him out, even countered a thoughtseize and bounced an overgrown tomb at one point. This was definetly incorrect and I lost the game, but I wanted to see if DS could be 'raced' and even though he was at 1, I never saw a bolt. Next two games I played far more carefully, didnt attack with uncontested goyf when he was at 15, then eventually went wide, and cryptic tapped for the win. Third game also involved a bolt to finish. SB -1 Vial +1 Huntmaster of the Fells
UR TRON (1-2)
This was a pile, wss U tron shell, with some wurmcoils, cast trigger eldrazi, and other monstrosities. Kept some medium hands that perhaps I shouldnt have. Game 1 I had the cryptic lock with tap his wurmcoils, bounce my ewitt, but he drew condescend and I died. Second game we drew go for a while (didnt see enough Goyfs here), then cast Kozilek or some such nonsense. SB: (unsure) I think +1 Grudge +1 Negate +2 Dispel (he showed remands thirst condescend) +1 Spreading Sea +1 Ceremonious Rejection
ABZAN (1-2)
First game he had goyf some souls and a lili, I managed to attack with two snaps, 1 gets through, and bolt, bolt, e-witt bolt him to win it. Next game I punted by casting electrolyze on my turn instead of waiting to let huntmaster flip and take an extra soul out - this may have cost me the game, am unsure. Third game I definetly punted by traversing for Keranos (ordinarily great against BGx) when he had 4 souls on field - getting izzet was the line as my life was too low (8-10ish) at the time. Regardless, close games I think I should have won with better play.
Deck felt good, pretty keen to cut Keranos for possibly 2nd Huntmaster, and Pulse I didnt draw so don't know yet. Might try that Spellskite you have. Needed to remind myself that I have the inevitability in both punts and I would have had a better chance.
Thanks for the report!
Did you really not board in Anger against tokens? Or just forgot it?
How has Huntmaster been against Death's Shadow for you? Being two and potentially more bodies is nice but he doesn't kill any of their creatures flipping and can only chump against their attackers. Haven't tried him yet though.
Also I think boarding out 1x Vial is never correct, either all or nothing, especially against a deck that runs Decay and K-Command.
I think you forgot one game against UR Tron (or lost 0-2 and not 1-2).
Learning from mistakes always works out best, so just remember your mistakes next time you play against Abzan and win that thing!
You got me thinking about Spellskite and actually, he's not even that good anymore. I have the card in my SB since before Twin was banned but since then, Infect is on an all time low, I haven't seen a Bogles deck in months and Death Shadow Zoo and Suicide Bloo died with the banning of Gitaxian Probe.
The interaction with Huntmaster is nice but comes up rather rarely. Even Bant Eldrazi is pretty low currently.
Against which MU is it still really good against?
If it turns out good against Shadow decks, another Huntmaster seems like a decent replacement.
Other possibilities would be Kozilek's Return (good against Elves and Affinity) or Forked Bolt.
Any suggestions for what could be better?
On another note, I will be writing a new primer for this deck (as this one is terribly outdated).
I will hopefully post a draft here in a few days and am happy to get some feedback then!
I recall considering it, but decided against it, in hindsight shaving a bolt definitely seems wise haha.
Him being a 2for1 and gaining life is just really nice, they never have any sweepers (that I've seen) so in topdeck wars, and board stalls (like the one you described previously) hes just great. Like I mentioned in a previous post (I think) I treat DS as a fast Jund, keranos too slow, huntmaster good
Yes one vial out definitely feels awkward, I suppose we can't blank decay cause of our creature suite, so taking one out doesnt help on that front. I suppose part of the thinking is that we want higher quality topdecks? It is a hard one to figure out.
I actually like some number of bolts against DS (they always get greedy and go low).
Hm, I think I may have lost 0-2, can't recall that game particularly well haha.
I actually think we are favored versus abzan, cryptic and snap are so excellent. Although g1 clique doesnt look good vs souls
Agreed, not sure what spellskite does anymore. Especially since we are nowhere near all in on our 'combination'.
Koz return I like for the instant speed quite a bit actually, good against coco too if that deck rises like I think it will (the new variant).
I wish we could run a Venser, as he is so very on theme, but he seems more like a maindeck card, and an expensive one.
In terms of value replacements for Keranos, pnk would be ok, except I dont like trying to get double red on turn 4. I could get behind a Chandra, or actually probably Garruk Relentless? Ive had success with him vs DS. He basically plays out like an easy to cast, slower gideon, with repeated removal for small guys, and sometimes tutoring! I've convinced myself now and will be trying him
Don't side out Bolt against DS, it's one of our best ways to win (in combination with Snap/more Bolts/E-Wit or Cryptic obviously).
Against normal Abzan (and Jund) I side out the Vials and bring in Land Destruction instead, exactly because of the better topdecks (against grindy blue decks vial is too good, securing us that we land our 2 for 1 creatures). But against Death Shadow Jund I think the tempo and especially surprise counterattacks we gain from Vial are way to good to pass up on.
I disagree in that we are favorable in the Abzan MU, it's certainly beatable but our answers have to line up correctly as pretty much every card they play provides a problem for us (Discard, Lili, Goyf, Lingering Souls etc.).
Pia and Kiran seems worse than Huntmaster to be honest, especially with being able to vial it in and instant flip. Garruk Relentless seems interesting. I have actually never played with that card. If we get him to flip he seems like an ideal card against DS and solid against multiple other creature based decks.
The questions is how do you flip it against Death's Shadow Jund? Besides Souls tokens (which will kill him pretty fast) they don't play creatures that don't kill him when he fights them.
But give him some testing and tell me how it goes!
All 4 vials out I assume? I will try that next time I face them. I guess my thinking was that if abzan abrupt decays a vial (which they do), that's one less at a goyf/clique/snap/wit? Idk, not great logic, I like your thinking.
Garruk won me a game (and match) vs DSJ, 2/2 every turn hard to beat for them sometimes. Seems dece, 2nd huntmaster could be better on average though. Something to be said for diversifying your sideboard though.
Any tech for Bant eldrazi? matchup seems soooooo bad, cavern of souls is super rough, and their dudes cant be answered easily.
As an aside, I am thinking of porting this deck to legacy for my first legacy event, using Counterspell, force, brainstorm, ponder, fire/ice, and a couple jace
Yes all 4. We really don't care if Abzan uses removal on Snap, E-Wit, or Clique, we got our value from them. The only thing that is relevant to stay alive is Goyf and that's mainly because it's the best answer we have for theirs Goyfs.
Interesting to hear on Garruk, but Huntmaster seems more solid overall.
Bant Eldrazi is easily our worst MU. I haven't found a card that was really good against them. Spreading Seas is solid, Stone Rain can be good but is sometimes actually too slow. I don't think it's worth it to play cards dedicated to your strategy in the SB, just use hate you would play anyway like land destruction or Ceremonious Rejection and pray they don't draw Caverns.
Some details are hazy as am writing this two days post the fact, work getting in the way etc.
Bant Spirits (0-2)
g1: I keep a medium 6 with 3 spells 3 lands, he proceeds to curve noble (which I bolt), into thalia, into noble mausoleum. I get a vial down t2, remand a drogskol, and eventually vial in a goyf. He has assembled 3-4 guys to my goyf, I believe hes on 4 and im on 5 at this point. I vial clique in, and see coco, archangel avacyn (5cmc flash one), a bird, and something else. I don't take anything, but I am pretty sure I should have taken coco. I end up going for a (thalia taxed) cryptic endstep, which he sacs mausoleum to counter. I die to flyers the following turn. Feels like I had a lot of relevant decisions that game - probably made some poor ones.
g2: Less interesting, we exchange guys with removal, he draws a geist, I draw 12 lands (clique was only threat all game). I electrolyze a dork and him to draw into goyf to block his geist, but he paths goyf.
Matchup feels tough between mainboard thalia, mausoleum, lots of flyers, and coco.
g1: Exchange resources, hes on 2 snaps main (maybe more), I get to snare one, remand another. Board stalls out, with him having gurmag and tasi, me with snap goyf and both on low life. I bolt him end step after he taps out to kill my clique I vial in. In my main phase I vial in the e-witt (had been slowrolling it, figuring bolt chain was my path to victory), get back bolt and win.
g2: Plays out similarly, except this time I go for cryptic tap his team on his end step, he orzhov charms goyf in response (after tanking) and goes to 5. I then untap and bolt him twice (again had been holding them).
sideboarding: +1 Garruk +1 Huntmaster -2 clique (excepted souls from sideboard as I saw godless shrine g1 - he did bring 2 in).
Storm (2-1)
g1: punt by remanding gifts instead of bolting baral - always bolt the enabler.
g2: mull to 6, sculpt a hand of dispels, snares and a cryptic. Ride vialed in goyfs to victory.
g3: fight over echoing truth (my two goyfs - had no vial out), he uses 2 spells and is left with 3 cards in hand so goyfs being in hand is ok. Replay both goyfs, pass, he plays electro and a cantrip and passes back. I vial in witness and bolt electro, attack with goyfs. He untaps, cantrips a bit, and scoops.
Sideboarding: +2 dispel +1 negate +1 izzet -1 scooze -1 traverse -1 snag (I think) Yes I went up to 61 cards
This matchup feels favorable for us. Have played the matchup a fair few times now and always felt quite straightforward.
Jeskai Saheeli (2-1)
Don't remember details much here - last game was tired.
g1: Tempo him out, he cannot resolve any of his spells, and dies.
g2: Board stalls after we both remove everything we present each other, he then resolves RIP (I should maybe board in natural state preemptively? which i do for g3). I scoop to avoid going to time - did not feel like he was going to win necessarily.
g3: 10 minutes on clock. I mull to 6, and game plays out similarly to g1, he cannot keep up with tempo draw, and gets an awkward land draw with no white source for his 2x felidar, and 1 x supreme verdict I see with clique (and leave him with).
sideboarding: dont remember, same as storm I believe minus izzet staticaster, treated this as a combo matchup, rather then a grindy one, this may be too conservative.
Deck felt great, I made mistakes, spirits was possibly winnable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Creatures could be another Clique (especially good against Tron and blue based control decks), Kitchen Finks (very good against Burn, solid against Death Shadow and other midrange decks without PtE), some people like to play Huntmaster main as well.
What are your opinions on Censor? Started to run 1 main lately but didn't see it very often in test matches yet.
In theory I really like to be able to hold up a counter turn 2 that's also a cantrip and in the yard it should slow down our opponents a bit as they need to play around it, if we have a Vial on 2 or 4 mana open. I also like more ways to draw through our deck, as it makes hitting our 1-offs more reliable.
I'm not sure if it's powerful enough in itself though, probably Remand will just turnout better for us usually.
Any other cards from Amonkhet that got you interested?
You'd probably have to run ancestral vision alongside it though
I highly advise you to give the deck a try (just proxy it up) to really get a feeling on how it plays out. It's a cliché for nontiered decks but Eternal Command is really skill intensive and rewards you a lot for knowing your deck and your opponents decks, so keep that in mind during the first games you're playing.
Overall though, I think you analyzed pretty well that there's a friction between Snapcaster and Vial. Cutting Snapcaster is not an option and thankfully we tend to bounce our own creatures quite a few times between Cryptic, Ruse and other stuff which virtually increases the number of creatures in our deck for Vial. I still think playing a few more creatures would be good though, something reasonably costed that loots upon etb could be very nice for example.
This is the list I was playing:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Eternal Witness
2x Vendillion Clique
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Kitchen Finks
4x Serum Visions
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Cryptic Command
2x Censor
1x Familiar's Ruse
1x Electrolyze
1x Vapor Snag
3x Remand
2x Spell Snare
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Island
1x Forest
2x Breeding Pool
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
2x Spirebluff Canal
2x Flooded Grove
1x Spellskite
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Natural State
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Stone Rain
1x Spreading Seas
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Dispel
1x Negate
Like I said I didn't really play for about a month. I know Death Shadow decks are the new hot thing and I tried to adjust my list a little to reflect that (Vapor Snag main). I also wanted to try out Censor, getting rid of a Tarfire and singleton Traverse the Ulvenwald for it, ending up with a more tempo orientated build.
And here's how it went down:
Match 1: Abzan Company (with Vizier/Devoted Druid) 2-1
G1: Ship first hand, keep second with only 1 land but SV and interaction, scry Island on top. Opponent establishes his board while I struggle to find a red source with Bolt, Snap and Electrolyze in hand. Find the red source just in time to prevent him from going off with Vizier+Druid+Recruiter. I take the chance to kill his Scooze that targets my Bolt EoT with Snap+that Bolt, with only two mana open (Snap in hand+ another Bolt in grave) he plays an Eternal Witness gets back Vizier and goes off.
G2: Keep 7 with Vial, Bolt, Huntmaster, Cryptic and lands, he starts slow without any manadorks. I can kill his creatures one by one until Huntmaster takes over the game with Cryptic and Dispel up.
G3: Keep 1 lander with 2x Bolt, 2x Remand, Vial and Goyf. Don’t kill his turn 1 Hierarch but play Vial to get my mana going. Find my second land, kill his Druid, we start to exchange cards but he’s stuck on 2 lands and I can keep killing his dorks with Bolt, Snap and Electrolyze while starting to beat down with a Clique and ride it home on the back of Remands and Cryptic.
Match 2: Burn 2-1
G1: Keep Bolt, Finks, Vapor Snag, Cryptic and lands. He’s on the play, opens with Swiftspear, follows it up with 2x Lava Spike, I Snag the Swifty (should have Bolted in response to the 2nd Spike but won’t be punished as I can kill Swiftspear next turn). I’m down to 4 but finally have enough breathing room to cast Finks (he’s down to one card). With Cryptic, Spell Snare, Snap and Scooze in hand I know I have the tools to stabilize, just need to time them right. Manage to do exactly that by playing very careful (not attacking, not playing Scooze to keep mana open) until he makes his move.
G2: Keep 6 with Censor, Goyf, Spell Snare and Snap. He just overruns me with the nut hand: Guide into Swiftspear + 3 Lava Spike + 2 Bolt are just too much.
G3: Keep 6 of Bolt, two lands, Vial, SV and Finks. Play Vial turn 1 and opponent only plays Lava Spike but no creature. I don’t care that much about his Eidolon either as I can vial in my Goyf, followed by Finks and a Clique, which puts him under a lot of pressure as his own spells get taxed by Eidolon with which he needs to chump block shortly after. Next turn I win with my attackers.
Match 3: GR Ponza 2-0
G1: Mull to 6, keep onelander with Vial, Bolt, Snap, Finks, Clique. He opens with Arbor Elf, I bolt it, which slows him down a bit. I find my 2nd land but struggle to find more for a while. Thankfully he doesn’t draw land destruction and I can kill his bombs (Chandra, Huntmaster etc.) while ticking up my Vial. I’m behind all game until I hit my 4th land and establish the softlock to hold him back long enough that I can finish him with my vialed in creatures.
G2: Keep seven of Goyf, Remand, Stone Rain, and 4 lands. Good hand if he doesn’t have a turn 1 Dork. He doesn’t and I can just easily answer all his stuff while beating down with first one and then two Goyfs.
Match 4: Death Shadow Jund 1-2
G1: Mull to 5 and keep Vial, land, SV, Snap and Clique. He discards my Vial and my SV doesn’t find any lands and when I finally make my 2nd land drop on turn 3 I’m already way too far behind, staring down two Goyfs.
G2: Keep 7 of SV, 2x Goyf, 2 lands, Negate and Snap. SV finds me Vapor Snag, Snap gets stripped away as we start to exchange resources, him aggressively lowering his life total until he’s on 7 and the board is stalled between his 6/6 Shadow and my 5/6 Goyf for a few turns we both spend topdecking until I find Huntmaster of the Fells which I can ride to victory.
G3: Keep 6 of 2 lands, Vial, Goyf, Snap and Censor. He shreds my hand with 3 discard spells but can’t follow them up with a clock and we are topdecking again. Kitchen Finks and Cryptic hold him back for a while but he draws super hot with 3 Shadows over 4 draws and I’m just overwhelmed.
Overall a very solid performance and a fun night.
I don't think I like to play with only 20 lands. Before I had Traverse which pseudo counted as one as well but I had to keep onelanders too often in my opinion. I hoped the additional cantripping from Censor would make up for that a little but I didn't really see the card often enough to make a decision if I like it or not yet.
The Death Shadow MU felt okay, not super good but not really bad either. Will need some more testing and sideboard adjustments.
Any tips for SB cards against Death Shadow for me? How good are Engineered Explosives? Does Surgical Extraction make an impact? Has anyone tried out Threats of Disloyalty?
Thoughts, ideas and questions are greatly appreciated!
Nice result and sweet list !
My main deck is similar, differences being +1 basic mountain, -2 censor (don't own so can't test but am interested in doing so for sure - possibly up to 4), +1 Cryptic Command +1 Remand -1 Scooze (this card is amazing and takes over some matchups but is a literal bear in some, could see two but happy with 1).
I have hardly played DS matchup, it seems 'fine' barring their nut hand. Seems like we need to be the control, and scrap a kill together with Cryptic tapping and/or a flurry of bolts and snaps. 1 of threads seems fine. modern is such a crapshoot facing DS once is about all you need expect.
Having just picked the deck back up (was my first modern deck) I only have one recent result, 3-1 at LGS event 2-0 vs jeskai saheeli, 2-0 vs casual random deck, 2-0 vs
Fish, and 1-2 vs burn (g3 I shuffled my lethal three card hand away when fetching! Something I've never done). Deck felt excellent, lock came up once but was not essential by any means.
Finks seems unexciting but I have not played the card much at all so don't feel qualified to say. How do you rate it in this archetype ?
I would play one EE if I owned one, as a flexible good stuff card.
I play two Surgical, card is nice with snaps and wit.
Ruse was awesome, wish we had a value 1/2 drop that we could run out (although that is fairly offplan to begin with ):D
I ran a single Tracker cause I think the card is insane.
I don't think it fits perfectly with the deck , but it does allow you to leave Vial on three, and crack clues at instant speed - which was awesome for me vs merfolk. Even when he was tidebinder tapped he drew me three (game winning) cards.
Let me know what ya think !
I've been having a hard time with Death's Shadow and looked at Rapid hybridization as my hard removal. Sideboard looks like this
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Grove
1 Forest
3 Island
1 Lumbering Falls
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Spirebluff Canal
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
Spells:
4 Aether Vial
3 Cryptic Command
1 Electrolyze
1 Familiar's Ruse
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
1 Vapor Snag
3 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Molten rain (no fulminators right now)
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Negate
2 Rapid Hybridization
2 Tormod's Crypt
Sadly I don't have much time to play currently, but I moved away from the Censors already. I ended up cycling them in 10 out of 12 cases where I drew them. Instead I replaced them with a Traverse again and a Hieroglyphic Illumination. Makes me really wish Opt was legal in modern. Maybe I'll replace Illumination with the 4th Command though. Or start to try out Repeal.
Scavenging Ooze aswell as Finks are meta calls but also individually good cards. I got a lot of Burn at my LGS and both of them are brilliant at stabilizing against that deck (Familiar's Ruse on a persisted Finks feels soooo sweet), while also being solid in other MUs.
Surgical is a very solid card but it's a lot better if you also have targeted discard. Without discard it seems a lot worse against many combo decks and it's also not really good against DSJ because it is actually pretty hard for us to get one of their threats into the grave.
Totally agree on the 1/2 drop Ruse issue, it's really what this deck needs to get tiered again in my opinion.
I don't know how experienced you are with the deck, but one of the common mistakes when people pick it up seems to be that they take the control/CA role too often, trying to get into the late game and establish the lock, when they should be just beating down with Goyf and play tempo instead.
The lock is a nice out to some strategies but quite fragile and Eternal Command's real strength is to beat down while countering stuff and putting in even more pressure with Vial just to finish with some Bolts or Cryptic->tap.
@jkam19
Welcome!
Very solid list, I personally actually prefer Molten Rain/Stone Rain to Fulminator because we can cast it again with Snapcaster.
I don't like Rapid Hybridization against Death Shadow. It still leaves them with a 3/3 that blocks our own attackers or needs to be bolted and we want to sandbag our bolts until they bring themselves down enough in life that we can set up a turn with Bolts/Snap/E-Wit/vialed in Goyf/tap down Cryptic to win.
Against what do you bring in Tormod's Crypt? Because in my experience Surgical Extraction and Scavenging Ooze have usually been better.
Interesting re: Censor, makes sense. I have been playing it on xmage and felt about the same (majority of the time it cycled).
I am running 4 commands and liking it :).
I will try a traverse, have liked the card a lot in other RUG variants. Repeal feels a little too controly to me - snag is mostly the same and more efficient.
Hieroglyphic Illumination is actually a pretty nice idea, although thirst may just be better - could run a Filigree Familiar over the finks too.
Confirmed ruse is sweeet, I usually side it out vs removal heavy decks but it's been great as a 1 of.
Agreed, I would never bring in surgical vs DSJ, I like all the 2 for 1s like Keranos and huntmaster + whatever removal we could theoretically bring in - I have found that DSJ is essentially faster Jund with a 1 mana 7/7. Your point about discard is a good one, I hardly ever bring in surgical - just against dredge, grishoalbrand and thopter sword I guess. I have 2 surgical 1 anger as is, but will consider replacing the surgicals.
Have played on and off since shortly after Shota brewed the deck. Totally agree, the deck is primarily a tempo deck that leverages a mana advantage (vial). Tracker was included for FNM because I released I had a flex slot and didn't want to run 2nd electrolyze/snag, and hadn't considered Traverse, it's not in the deck anymore.
Some other spice I am considering - Spellstutter Sprite, no idea how good it would be, but is indeed a good tempo card. Will report back once ive played some games with it.
EDIT: Just had a thought - Fortune's Favor(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=414355), instant speed, fills gy, draws 1-3. What do you guys think?
The idea behind Illumination was basically that I actually liked to have instant speed cantrips that can also act as something else in Censor, the 'act as something else part' was just not good enough. I pretty much always cylce Illumination when I have the opportunity, but can snap or witness it back later if the game gets grindy.
We run a lot of singletons because Snapcaster and E-Wit can abuse a wide range of spells very good. To find the right spell at the right time more cantrip are awesome.
Which also brings me to Repeal. Cantrips are awesome.
I think overall Filigree Familiar is a worse card than Finks. Finks gains more life, is two bodies, synergizes with Ruse and is a 7 turn clock as opposed to a 10 turn clock.
I tried out SSS a while ago, was not really impressed then, but with DS running around the card seems better positioned. Counter a Traverse, Discard spell or Death's Shadow and leave me with a blocker? Seems sweet.
Would you show me your current sideboard?
Ok thanks! Didn't realise re: shortcut.
Repeal is probably better then FF on average, and we have plenty of grindy sideboard options, will try it. Letting them choose just seems so much worse, hence I prefer FF to steam. We don't want raw CA as you said, just enough ways to tempo them out with the right tools in the form of 1 ofs.
Fair comments re: familiar, I want a 14th creature and atm its between sprite and a 3rd clique. Yea that was my thinking, very good vs DS.
Current sideboard is: 1 x Anger of the Gods 1 x Izzet Staticcaster 2 x Dispel 1 x Negate 1 x Pithing Needle 1 x Spreading Seas 1 x Ceremonious Rejection 1 x Ancient Grudge 1 x Natural State 1 x Keranos, God of Storms 1 x Huntmaster of the Fells 2 x Surgical Extraction 1 x Pulse of Murasa
Pulse and Ceremonious are being tested. Pulse is for burn and grindy matchups as a third regrowth.
Thoughts? Numbers definitely feel like they need tweaking, have been trying to map some general sideboard plans and have some awkward tension, probably also because I haven't yet got the best feel for some of the key matchups.
Pulse of Murasa is an awesome card but I don't really like bringing in more cards that rely on the graveyard after boarding.
I played Keranos for a long while too, but he's best against grindy BGx decks, which there just aren't running a lot around currently. I think that spot can be used better for something else.
Maybe bring in another sweeper for him as 2 (Anger and Staticaster) are really not much. a second Anger would be very good against Collected Company decks (Abzan and Elves) as well as Dredge, while also being solid against Affinity and even Merfolk.
Also only 1 card to interact with opposing lands seems not enough to me.
Good point re: Pulse, GY hate is tough.
Second Huntmaster would probably be better then Keranos. I have also used him for ages and my liking the card has probably kept it around longer then I should do. While two sweepers is on the low end, I would say that Anger is relatively hard for us to cast, and that between snap/witness removal we have quite a good tempo plan vs those type of decks without needing to lean as heavily on sweepers. Also, electrolyze main is sometimes a good impression of a sweeper. Also, I would be hesitant to swap Keranos for a non-grindy card as my meta has a fair bit of UW/random grindy control decks, and only having 1 card to bring in seems low.
Re: land hate, for tron I have ceremonious, negate, needle, seas, grudge, state which seems like enough. For valakut (which I havent played much) I feel like the deck just needs to tempo them out and get them dead, and stone rain is just a three mana kill 1 valakut, molten pinnacle, which seems too inefficient. Would need to play vs Valakut more to say for sure.
I brought the deck to FNM again yesterday and won the whole thing!
This is the list I was playing:
4x Aether Vial
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Serum Visions
4x Cryptic Command
3x Remand
1x Familiar's Ruse
1x Electrolyze
1x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Eternal Witness
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Vendillion Clique
1x Kitchen Finks
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Breeding Pool
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
3x Island
1x Forest
2x Spirebluff Canal
2x Flooded Grove
1x Spellskite
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Negate
1x Dispel
1x Natural State
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Stone Rain
1x Spreading Seas
1x Threads of Disloyalty
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Ceremonious Rejection
And here's a report:
Match 1: Grixis Shadow 2-0
Game 1: Keep Vial, 2x Snaps, 2x Bolts, 2x lands on the play. He continues to play targeted discard but gets stuck on 1 land for 2 turns. A tempo loss he can’t compensate. Remand is brutal if you opponent is on 1 land.
Game 2: Keep Goyf, 2 SV, Cryptic and 3 lands. He discards my Cryptic, Pushes my Goyf. Discards my Threads of Disloyalty and uses Surgical on my Goyf, knowing I have another one in hand. I use Traverse to find Eternal Witness and can exile his Surgical and a Push with Scooze, which gets Terminated. My opponent sees that E-Wit+Traverse easily spirals out of control and uses Snap+Thoughtseize to get rid of it, going down to 3 life in process (talked with him afterwards about it, I think the play was correct, because even with 5 life if I topdeck a bolt he’s dead to it plus E-Wit and Traverse would have found me another Traverse, then a Snap which all would kill him if I had drawn a Bolt over the next few turns). He lands a Tasigur afterwards but my Remand draws me into the Bolt that wins the game after he tapped out to cast Tasigur again.
Match 2: Elves 2-0
Game 1: Keep Bolt, Vial, Snap, Remand, 3 lands on the draw. Bolt his dork, Snap->Bolt his Archdruid on turn 3. Electrolyze+Familiar’s Ruse on his Company, getting back Snap to play Electrolyze again leaves him with no board and only 1 card in hand. He never gets back into the game.
Game 2: Keep Bolt, Anger, Snap, Cryptic, Spell Snare, 2 lands. Spell Snare his Rest in Peace and Bolt his Heritage druid to keep him from spiraling out of control. Then cast Anger on turn four with Dispel up, which counters his Chord. A topdecked Company keeps him in the game for a while but Snapcaster->Anger of the Gods ends his efforts.
Match 3: Naya Burn: 2-1
Game 1: Keep Vial, Scooze, E-Wit, SV and 2 lands on the play. He lands 2 Swiftspears and has me quickly down to 9 but I can Bolt one and Spell Snare his Atarka’s Command next turn. My vialed in Scooze gains me 1 life and eats a Bolt. Next turn Snap->Bolt kills the other Swiftspear and leaves me at 8. Draw and play Goyf, counter his Boros Charm with Spell Snare thanks to vialed in E-Wit which is enough to get there in 2 attacks.
Game 2: Mull to 5 keep 2 lands, Bolt, Dispel, E-Wit. I try to fight back but draw 3 lands in a row and get overrun by 2x Goblin Guides followed by Atarka’s Command, Boros Charm and Bolts.
Game 3: Keep 7 of Bolt, Spellskite, Huntmaster, SV and 3 lands. My opponent opens with a Swiftspear and gets then stuck on one land for a few turns and simply Lava Spikes me twice. I play Huntmaster with Spellskite on the field and start flipping him while keeping up Cryptic. Too much for him.
Game 4: Eldrazi Tron 2-0
Game 1: Keep Vial, E-Wit, Goyf, Remand, SV, 2x lands on the draw. He starts with a Temple and Map but misses his second land drop which gives me enough time to Remand his turn 4 TKS while I start beating down with Goyf to get the Cryptic lock online on my turn 4, which I ride to victory.
Game 2: Keep 7 of Remand, Goyf, Clique, Ancient Grudge and 3 lands. I Remand his turn 3 TKS and Clique him next turn at the end of his draw step to stare down 2x Smashers, Karn, All is Dust and a Map. I choose the TKS and map finds his 2nd Tron piece. I topdeck a Snapcaster, which buys me another turn and 2 draws, one of them is Cryptic, I counter draw his Smasher. SV finds me another Cryptic which counters his All is Dust, I have him down to 7 when he resolves Karn and exiles Clique. I attack him for 2 and play Goyf with a Bolt in hand, knowing all I need is another Snap, E-Wit or Bolt to win this. He drops Smasher and Endbringer, has me down to 3 when I topdeck Vapor Snag, return my own Snap to hand and bolt him for the win.
Super intense game and awesome finish for a super fun and successful night!
Congrats! Some sick plays there, must have been satisfying to see those winning lines! Do you have any thoughts as to potential changes to SB/MB? Under/overperformers?
Being able to protect my Huntmaster with Spellskite against Burn was pretty sweet!
Although it's on an all time low Lightning Bolt is still an all star in this deck and enough reason for me to stay in RUG. He's a major reason we can switch so easily between control/CA mode and tempo/beatdown.
I brought in Threads of Disloyalty against Grixis Shadow (because it's my new tech for DS) just to realize it's a lot worse against Grixis than Jund, you can only target 4 of their main threads and even then, sometimes my life total would be 13+ so the card is actually pretty niche against Grixis. It's obviously better against Jund, but overall I don't like that I can bring it in against pretty much only one deck in the current meta so that goes out.
Back to finding a nice SB card against DS. Next card I'll try is...Redirect.
I saw somebody suggesting it on reddit and really want to try it out. While I wish it would cost one less, it still seems like a must-discard-card for them because playing around it is pretty tough when so many cards of their deck get affected by it. You wanna Thoughtseize me? Nah, I'd rather see your hand and have you discard a card. Push my Goyf? Nope, push your Goyf! You wanna snipe my Snap and let me discard a card? How about you get 2 damage and discard a card!
Also I can bring in Redirect against other decks too. Burn wants to Searing Blaze me? How about no. And I'm already looking forward to the face my opponent will make when I redirect his Ancestral Vision!
Brief FNM report from tonight:
BW Tokens (2-0)
He played a bunch of flying tokens (spectral procession, midnight haunting, souls), and then randomly some ensnaring bridge. First game I remanded some tokens, deployed threats and countered planeswalkers, then went for cryptic tap to swing with lethal goyf and snap. Second game he had two bridges and two leylines in play, went draw go for a while with huge board states (including Keranos on my side), eventually went to time, drew ancient grudge on t4 and killed both bridges and swung for lethal (Keranos had steadily killed his board). SB -2 Clique -1 Vapor Snag +1 Grudge +1 Keranos +1 Izzet Staticcaster
DS Jund (2-1)
First game he was land light so i tried to tempo him out, even countered a thoughtseize and bounced an overgrown tomb at one point. This was definetly incorrect and I lost the game, but I wanted to see if DS could be 'raced' and even though he was at 1, I never saw a bolt. Next two games I played far more carefully, didnt attack with uncontested goyf when he was at 15, then eventually went wide, and cryptic tapped for the win. Third game also involved a bolt to finish. SB -1 Vial +1 Huntmaster of the Fells
UR TRON (1-2)
This was a pile, wss U tron shell, with some wurmcoils, cast trigger eldrazi, and other monstrosities. Kept some medium hands that perhaps I shouldnt have. Game 1 I had the cryptic lock with tap his wurmcoils, bounce my ewitt, but he drew condescend and I died. Second game we drew go for a while (didnt see enough Goyfs here), then cast Kozilek or some such nonsense. SB: (unsure) I think +1 Grudge +1 Negate +2 Dispel (he showed remands thirst condescend) +1 Spreading Sea +1 Ceremonious Rejection
ABZAN (1-2)
First game he had goyf some souls and a lili, I managed to attack with two snaps, 1 gets through, and bolt, bolt, e-witt bolt him to win it. Next game I punted by casting electrolyze on my turn instead of waiting to let huntmaster flip and take an extra soul out - this may have cost me the game, am unsure. Third game I definetly punted by traversing for Keranos (ordinarily great against BGx) when he had 4 souls on field - getting izzet was the line as my life was too low (8-10ish) at the time. Regardless, close games I think I should have won with better play.
Deck felt good, pretty keen to cut Keranos for possibly 2nd Huntmaster, and Pulse I didnt draw so don't know yet. Might try that Spellskite you have. Needed to remind myself that I have the inevitability in both punts and I would have had a better chance.
Did you really not board in Anger against tokens? Or just forgot it?
How has Huntmaster been against Death's Shadow for you? Being two and potentially more bodies is nice but he doesn't kill any of their creatures flipping and can only chump against their attackers. Haven't tried him yet though.
Also I think boarding out 1x Vial is never correct, either all or nothing, especially against a deck that runs Decay and K-Command.
I think you forgot one game against UR Tron (or lost 0-2 and not 1-2).
Learning from mistakes always works out best, so just remember your mistakes next time you play against Abzan and win that thing!
You got me thinking about Spellskite and actually, he's not even that good anymore. I have the card in my SB since before Twin was banned but since then, Infect is on an all time low, I haven't seen a Bogles deck in months and Death Shadow Zoo and Suicide Bloo died with the banning of Gitaxian Probe.
The interaction with Huntmaster is nice but comes up rather rarely. Even Bant Eldrazi is pretty low currently.
Against which MU is it still really good against?
If it turns out good against Shadow decks, another Huntmaster seems like a decent replacement.
Other possibilities would be Kozilek's Return (good against Elves and Affinity) or Forked Bolt.
Any suggestions for what could be better?
On another note, I will be writing a new primer for this deck (as this one is terribly outdated).
I will hopefully post a draft here in a few days and am happy to get some feedback then!
Him being a 2for1 and gaining life is just really nice, they never have any sweepers (that I've seen) so in topdeck wars, and board stalls (like the one you described previously) hes just great. Like I mentioned in a previous post (I think) I treat DS as a fast Jund, keranos too slow, huntmaster good
Yes one vial out definitely feels awkward, I suppose we can't blank decay cause of our creature suite, so taking one out doesnt help on that front. I suppose part of the thinking is that we want higher quality topdecks? It is a hard one to figure out.
I actually like some number of bolts against DS (they always get greedy and go low).
Hm, I think I may have lost 0-2, can't recall that game particularly well haha.
I actually think we are favored versus abzan, cryptic and snap are so excellent. Although g1 clique doesnt look good vs souls
Agreed, not sure what spellskite does anymore. Especially since we are nowhere near all in on our 'combination'.
Koz return I like for the instant speed quite a bit actually, good against coco too if that deck rises like I think it will (the new variant).
I wish we could run a Venser, as he is so very on theme, but he seems more like a maindeck card, and an expensive one.
In terms of value replacements for Keranos, pnk would be ok, except I dont like trying to get double red on turn 4. I could get behind a Chandra, or actually probably Garruk Relentless? Ive had success with him vs DS. He basically plays out like an easy to cast, slower gideon, with repeated removal for small guys, and sometimes tutoring! I've convinced myself now and will be trying him
Awesome! Look forward to reading it!
Against normal Abzan (and Jund) I side out the Vials and bring in Land Destruction instead, exactly because of the better topdecks (against grindy blue decks vial is too good, securing us that we land our 2 for 1 creatures). But against Death Shadow Jund I think the tempo and especially surprise counterattacks we gain from Vial are way to good to pass up on.
I disagree in that we are favorable in the Abzan MU, it's certainly beatable but our answers have to line up correctly as pretty much every card they play provides a problem for us (Discard, Lili, Goyf, Lingering Souls etc.).
Pia and Kiran seems worse than Huntmaster to be honest, especially with being able to vial it in and instant flip. Garruk Relentless seems interesting. I have actually never played with that card. If we get him to flip he seems like an ideal card against DS and solid against multiple other creature based decks.
The questions is how do you flip it against Death's Shadow Jund? Besides Souls tokens (which will kill him pretty fast) they don't play creatures that don't kill him when he fights them.
But give him some testing and tell me how it goes!
All 4 vials out I assume? I will try that next time I face them. I guess my thinking was that if abzan abrupt decays a vial (which they do), that's one less at a goyf/clique/snap/wit? Idk, not great logic, I like your thinking.
Garruk won me a game (and match) vs DSJ, 2/2 every turn hard to beat for them sometimes. Seems dece, 2nd huntmaster could be better on average though. Something to be said for diversifying your sideboard though.
Any tech for Bant eldrazi? matchup seems soooooo bad, cavern of souls is super rough, and their dudes cant be answered easily.
As an aside, I am thinking of porting this deck to legacy for my first legacy event, using Counterspell, force, brainstorm, ponder, fire/ice, and a couple jace
Interesting to hear on Garruk, but Huntmaster seems more solid overall.
Bant Eldrazi is easily our worst MU. I haven't found a card that was really good against them. Spreading Seas is solid, Stone Rain can be good but is sometimes actually too slow. I don't think it's worth it to play cards dedicated to your strategy in the SB, just use hate you would play anyway like land destruction or Ceremonious Rejection and pray they don't draw Caverns.
Some details are hazy as am writing this two days post the fact, work getting in the way etc.
Bant Spirits (0-2)
g1: I keep a medium 6 with 3 spells 3 lands, he proceeds to curve noble (which I bolt), into thalia, into noble mausoleum. I get a vial down t2, remand a drogskol, and eventually vial in a goyf. He has assembled 3-4 guys to my goyf, I believe hes on 4 and im on 5 at this point. I vial clique in, and see coco, archangel avacyn (5cmc flash one), a bird, and something else. I don't take anything, but I am pretty sure I should have taken coco. I end up going for a (thalia taxed) cryptic endstep, which he sacs mausoleum to counter. I die to flyers the following turn. Feels like I had a lot of relevant decisions that game - probably made some poor ones.
g2: Less interesting, we exchange guys with removal, he draws a geist, I draw 12 lands (clique was only threat all game). I electrolyze a dork and him to draw into goyf to block his geist, but he paths goyf.
Matchup feels tough between mainboard thalia, mausoleum, lots of flyers, and coco.
sideboarding: +1 anger +1 izzet -1 traverse -1ruse (caverns)
Grixis Death Shadow (2-0)
g1: Exchange resources, hes on 2 snaps main (maybe more), I get to snare one, remand another. Board stalls out, with him having gurmag and tasi, me with snap goyf and both on low life. I bolt him end step after he taps out to kill my clique I vial in. In my main phase I vial in the e-witt (had been slowrolling it, figuring bolt chain was my path to victory), get back bolt and win.
g2: Plays out similarly, except this time I go for cryptic tap his team on his end step, he orzhov charms goyf in response (after tanking) and goes to 5. I then untap and bolt him twice (again had been holding them).
sideboarding: +1 Garruk +1 Huntmaster -2 clique (excepted souls from sideboard as I saw godless shrine g1 - he did bring 2 in).
Storm (2-1)
g1: punt by remanding gifts instead of bolting baral - always bolt the enabler.
g2: mull to 6, sculpt a hand of dispels, snares and a cryptic. Ride vialed in goyfs to victory.
g3: fight over echoing truth (my two goyfs - had no vial out), he uses 2 spells and is left with 3 cards in hand so goyfs being in hand is ok. Replay both goyfs, pass, he plays electro and a cantrip and passes back. I vial in witness and bolt electro, attack with goyfs. He untaps, cantrips a bit, and scoops.
Sideboarding: +2 dispel +1 negate +1 izzet -1 scooze -1 traverse -1 snag (I think) Yes I went up to 61 cards
This matchup feels favorable for us. Have played the matchup a fair few times now and always felt quite straightforward.
Jeskai Saheeli (2-1)
Don't remember details much here - last game was tired.
g1: Tempo him out, he cannot resolve any of his spells, and dies.
g2: Board stalls after we both remove everything we present each other, he then resolves RIP (I should maybe board in natural state preemptively? which i do for g3). I scoop to avoid going to time - did not feel like he was going to win necessarily.
g3: 10 minutes on clock. I mull to 6, and game plays out similarly to g1, he cannot keep up with tempo draw, and gets an awkward land draw with no white source for his 2x felidar, and 1 x supreme verdict I see with clique (and leave him with).
sideboarding: dont remember, same as storm I believe minus izzet staticaster, treated this as a combo matchup, rather then a grindy one, this may be too conservative.
Deck felt great, I made mistakes, spirits was possibly winnable.