From the looks of it, it looks like Counterspell with upside if you have a non-Tarmogoyf in play, mostly because any creature you bounce with it effectively draws you a card (or has an effect worth a card) when it ETB.
From the looks of it, it looks like Counterspell with upside if you have a non-Tarmogoyf in play, mostly because any creature you bounce with it effectively draws you a card (or has an effect worth a card) when it ETB.
Familiar's ruse always will be, and always has been a trap.
Counterspells that require you to fulfill a set of conditions in order to be cast are almost never worth it outside niche sideboard slots.
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Since Yasooka did well with it, it only had a presence on MTGO for a few weeks, and it hasn't Top 8'd a GP or Pro Tour since. Versions with Spellskite started coming back on MTGO months after RTR and Deathrite Shaman came out (and Deathrite screws over the Eternal Command lock in two ways--by exiling Cryptic Command with the Witness trigger on the stack and by killing players without dealing combat damage). The_Great_Dustini just won an MTGO PTQ, yes, but it hasn't even put up as high numbers as GW Aura Bogle or GW Hatebears lately.
Just ran some tests with this list. Electrolyze have been incredible for consistency. Vialing in Snapcasters to flashback electrolyze is one of the best feelings in the world.
I am concerned about Rest In Peace, though. Anyone have experience facing it? Does it matter as much as I think it does?
I'm aware of DRS's impact on the format. My point being this deck has put up some results and at least at one point was a player in the meta. Whereas something like mono white control isn't and probably never will be a real deck in this format.
I'm aware of DRS's impact on the format. My point being this deck has put up some results and at least at one point was a player in the meta. Whereas something like mono white control isn't and probably never will be a real deck in this format.
It has done very well, but I feel that the lack of player support is what's keeping it from being "Established". I've only seen it place highly three times (twice by The_Great_Dustini, once by Shouta Yasooka), likely because not enough players are willing to take the risk to play it when other viable options are available (and possibly easier to pilot as well).
I'm planning on playing it at an upcoming PTQ. I'm still testing to get used to all the lines of play. I'll report my results here afterwards.
I really would love to play this deck but DRS is just too prominent, seems that if your vs anything that plays DRS you auto lose if you dont draw 1 of your 4 bolts?
The deck doesn't auto lose to the elf, and most current lists are playing more removal than just bolt.
These lists literally have the Rug delver creature base swapping delver for eternal witness. Youre still playing a deck with goyf and clique, establishing a lock with cryptic is really just one route to victory. The deck is fine without vial, and cryptic.
EDIT: Also, the deck has T'8ed several of the most recent ptqs, why is it still in this forum?
How important is goyf in this list? They are a great beater but they dont seem very synergistic and make gy hate (i.e. drs shaman) that much better vs us.
Any thoughts on replacing goyf with spellstutter sprite and adding 3-4 mutas to the land base? If the deck is mostly blue and splashing red for just bolt (and possibly electrolyze/izzet charm) and splashing green for witness (flooded groves make it much easier) then we could also possibly run shackles making thirst that much stronger.
How important is goyf in this list? They are a great beater but they dont seem very synergistic and make gy hate (i.e. drs shaman) that much better vs us.
Any thoughts on replacing goyf with spellstutter sprite and adding 3-4 mutas to the land base? If the deck is mostly blue and splashing red for just bolt (and possibly electrolyze/izzet charm) and splashing green for witness (flooded groves make it much easier) then we could also possibly run shackles making thirst that much stronger.
Thoughts?
I found Yasooka's version of the deck weak to Goyf-sized creatures (Goyf, Loxodon Smiter, Restoration Angel, etc.), and Goyf blocks most of them well. (Electrolyze patches up enough of this weakness because you don't have to spend 2 cards to kill 1 creature now.)
Once you have the Eternal Command soft-lock, Goyf is also a fearsome clock that doesn't give opponents much time to break out of the lock.
Alright so I have a ptq in 8 days and have decided to run this deck. I have everything but the goyfs and cannot find them anywhere (have been searching for a cple days), I also can't order them because I'm in canada and it will take too long to get here.
I have been testing with spellstutter sprites and mutas instead but the mana base isnt good enough for it. any suggestions on how i can play this deck and go around my goyf problem?
Was thinking of using phantasmal image and spellskites in teh slot giving me an even more controlling role until i can win with clique/snap/witness beatdown
another could be to just substitute Epochrasite in that slot
Interesting take definitely, he drops snapcasters for finks in order to make up for the life loss due to confidant. I absolutely love DRS here, but confidant hitting cryptic really hurts and this list looks much more vulnerable to opposing deathrites because it lacks 4x lightning bolt.
I haven't got all the cards together but this is the list I would jam if I could. I definitely think this deck is one of the best in the format (this archetype, not my list per-se.)
I want a third Copperline Gorge but am not sure if losing an Island hurts the blue sources too much.
The miser Naturalize seems fine, there are plenty of maindeck value artifacts & enchantments being run main deck at the moment, and you can get additional value out of it in the truly relevant match-ups against things like Affinity & Birthing Pods.
Hibernation just seems like an absurd tool to me. Combined with Eternal Witness it provides a lock against the green creature decks that Deathrite Shaman can't break. (It can even keep the Shaman summoning sick nigh-infinitely.) It's also strong tech against Boggle & Infect, which while not as popular, are bad match-ups, imo.
I feel kind of soft to a few fringe decks, mono-burn, specifically. Spellskite helps, but isn't enough unless I'm leaving UU up each turn.
Augur Of Bolas seems like it would be really good in the deck, especially making the sideboard spells better, but he's probably too slow. Same goes for Daybreak Ranger. Absolutely absurd when vialed in, but just doesn't quite do enough, probably.
I really want to try a singleton Kessig Wolf Run to help close the grindy games. You can eventually just loop Eternal Witnesses and always have an X/1 to attack in with. Not sure if a colorless land or a 23rd land slot would be worth it, though.
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Im running this deck in an upcoming ptq but dont have goyfs, would replacing them with lotus cobra, coiling oracle, spellskite, or phantasmal image work?
I really just want to make this deck full of value and I think image and oracle (god i wish he was a 2/1) would work best. But although oracle gives value im not sure if its body is just too do nothing to be considered.
Other than snapcaster mage, what good "value" 2 drop creature is there? I tried spellstutter sprite but fitting mutavaults into the manabase was too difficult. Preferably tempo-ish and aggressive.
Also, Mayor of Avabruck seems sweet with vial but prolly not worth it either?
Spellskite is pretty good in this deck...in addition to Goyf, not to replace it.
Sadly, I don't think any of those 2-drops will work as a Goyf replacement. Goyf is both your defence early-game and your beef late-game. A 2-drop that replaces it should play the same role.
I'd actually probably play Quirion Dryad or Skinshifter in the Goyf slot, as they and Goyf serve similar functions (but Quirion Dryad and Skinshifter have their own disadvantages that make them worse than Goyf overall).
Ya i kinda figured that. I really dont want to play any kind of budget deck at a ptq, (i can make a cple other tier 1 decks) but I really would love to play a deck with snap, clique, command, and vials.
My playstyle is similiar to faeries, mono blue control (bounce and counter, win with shackles/batterskull) but Ive had this deck proxied (the goyfs) and have loved it.
Im going to playtest coiling oracle a little as a 3-of to see if it can work. I dont think i can find a card that will work as a beater and defensive creature but something like oracle would atleast give me value and work defensively, letting me rip thru my deck as a cantrip or ramping me so i can get to cryptics quicker/end game with witness.
lotus cobra does the same thing with ramping (3 mana cryptics if i have a fetch) and it's 2 power is more relevant but doesnt let me cantrip.
Hopefully i can stumble across some 2 power 2cmc value creature (i dont mind winning with a bunch of 2/1s and 3/1)
I like the idea of Epochffasite, especially since it comes back. But you can also go Myr Superion and be even better. I think the idea can work althought you rely heavy on your turn 1 Vial. An then the only downside is when the SB hate come in.
I thought about Voidmage Prodigy but without Vail hes a 4 cmc counter.
Was able to borrow 4 goyfs for the ptq on saturday So I'll be playing him. Did a buuuunch of playtesting vs jund and found out that the matchup is close but slightly in their favor. Deathrite is annoying, apposing goyfs are annoying, lil is annoying, and thrun is a huge fckin headache.
threads seem good but huntmaster and batterskull could be better.
How does RUG beat thrun? Cant counter him, cant burn him, cant bounce him, all i can do is have 2-3 goyfs out to block/attack (which is impossible vs super heavy removal) or endlessly cryptic tap (hard to get going vs so much disruption)
Shaman is a major issue and must be bolted, usually. It's one of the big reasons playing without Bolt just isn't viable.
From the looks of it, it looks like Counterspell with upside if you have a non-Tarmogoyf in play, mostly because any creature you bounce with it effectively draws you a card (or has an effect worth a card) when it ETB.
Familiar's ruse always will be, and always has been a trap.
Counterspells that require you to fulfill a set of conditions in order to be cast are almost never worth it outside niche sideboard slots.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 AEther Vial
4 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Flooded Grove
1 Forest
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
4 Spellskite
4 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Tormod's Crypt
Just ran some tests with this list. Electrolyze have been incredible for consistency. Vialing in Snapcasters to flashback electrolyze is one of the best feelings in the world.
I am concerned about Rest In Peace, though. Anyone have experience facing it? Does it matter as much as I think it does?
It has done very well, but I feel that the lack of player support is what's keeping it from being "Established". I've only seen it place highly three times (twice by The_Great_Dustini, once by Shouta Yasooka), likely because not enough players are willing to take the risk to play it when other viable options are available (and possibly easier to pilot as well).
I'm planning on playing it at an upcoming PTQ. I'm still testing to get used to all the lines of play. I'll report my results here afterwards.
How does everyone feel about Phantasmal Images out of the board? I like the idea of vialing in Images to deal with Thrun, the Last Troll, Olivia Voldaren, and Vendilion Clique. What are your thoughts?
These lists literally have the Rug delver creature base swapping delver for eternal witness. Youre still playing a deck with goyf and clique, establishing a lock with cryptic is really just one route to victory. The deck is fine without vial, and cryptic.
EDIT: Also, the deck has T'8ed several of the most recent ptqs, why is it still in this forum?
Here is the link if anyone wants to translate it into a forum post. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4428&d=225715
Any thoughts on replacing goyf with spellstutter sprite and adding 3-4 mutas to the land base? If the deck is mostly blue and splashing red for just bolt (and possibly electrolyze/izzet charm) and splashing green for witness (flooded groves make it much easier) then we could also possibly run shackles making thirst that much stronger.
Thoughts?
I found Yasooka's version of the deck weak to Goyf-sized creatures (Goyf, Loxodon Smiter, Restoration Angel, etc.), and Goyf blocks most of them well. (Electrolyze patches up enough of this weakness because you don't have to spend 2 cards to kill 1 creature now.)
Once you have the Eternal Command soft-lock, Goyf is also a fearsome clock that doesn't give opponents much time to break out of the lock.
I have been testing with spellstutter sprites and mutas instead but the mana base isnt good enough for it. any suggestions on how i can play this deck and go around my goyf problem?
Was thinking of using phantasmal image and spellskites in teh slot giving me an even more controlling role until i can win with clique/snap/witness beatdown
another could be to just substitute Epochrasite in that slot
Dennis Sinner (Shouta.dec)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Aether Vial
2 Remand
3 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vapor Snag
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Treetop Village
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Flooded Grove
SB
3 Spellskite
2 Thoughtseize
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Negate
1 Nature's Claim
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Disfigure
1 Doom Blade
1 Devour Flesh
Interesting take definitely, he drops snapcasters for finks in order to make up for the life loss due to confidant. I absolutely love DRS here, but confidant hitting cryptic really hurts and this list looks much more vulnerable to opposing deathrites because it lacks 4x lightning bolt.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Aether Vial
4 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Naturalize
4 Serum Visions
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Flooded Grove
1 Forest
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Combust
2 Hibernation
1 Naturalize
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Spellskite
I want a third Copperline Gorge but am not sure if losing an Island hurts the blue sources too much.
The miser Naturalize seems fine, there are plenty of maindeck value artifacts & enchantments being run main deck at the moment, and you can get additional value out of it in the truly relevant match-ups against things like Affinity & Birthing Pods.
Hibernation just seems like an absurd tool to me. Combined with Eternal Witness it provides a lock against the green creature decks that Deathrite Shaman can't break. (It can even keep the Shaman summoning sick nigh-infinitely.) It's also strong tech against Boggle & Infect, which while not as popular, are bad match-ups, imo.
Phantasmal Image is a must, imo. It kills Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker & Emrakul, The Aeons Torn at instant speed assuming vial. It's also just a great value card against a deck like pod, as well as being an answer to Geist Of Saint Traft.
I feel kind of soft to a few fringe decks, mono-burn, specifically. Spellskite helps, but isn't enough unless I'm leaving UU up each turn.
Augur Of Bolas seems like it would be really good in the deck, especially making the sideboard spells better, but he's probably too slow. Same goes for Daybreak Ranger. Absolutely absurd when vialed in, but just doesn't quite do enough, probably.
I really want to try a singleton Kessig Wolf Run to help close the grindy games. You can eventually just loop Eternal Witnesses and always have an X/1 to attack in with. Not sure if a colorless land or a 23rd land slot would be worth it, though.
I really just want to make this deck full of value and I think image and oracle (god i wish he was a 2/1) would work best. But although oracle gives value im not sure if its body is just too do nothing to be considered.
Other than snapcaster mage, what good "value" 2 drop creature is there? I tried spellstutter sprite but fitting mutavaults into the manabase was too difficult. Preferably tempo-ish and aggressive.
Also, Mayor of Avabruck seems sweet with vial but prolly not worth it either?
Sadly, I don't think any of those 2-drops will work as a Goyf replacement. Goyf is both your defence early-game and your beef late-game. A 2-drop that replaces it should play the same role.
I'd actually probably play Quirion Dryad or Skinshifter in the Goyf slot, as they and Goyf serve similar functions (but Quirion Dryad and Skinshifter have their own disadvantages that make them worse than Goyf overall).
My playstyle is similiar to faeries, mono blue control (bounce and counter, win with shackles/batterskull) but Ive had this deck proxied (the goyfs) and have loved it.
Im going to playtest coiling oracle a little as a 3-of to see if it can work. I dont think i can find a card that will work as a beater and defensive creature but something like oracle would atleast give me value and work defensively, letting me rip thru my deck as a cantrip or ramping me so i can get to cryptics quicker/end game with witness.
lotus cobra does the same thing with ramping (3 mana cryptics if i have a fetch) and it's 2 power is more relevant but doesnt let me cantrip.
Hopefully i can stumble across some 2 power 2cmc value creature (i dont mind winning with a bunch of 2/1s and 3/1)
However, Voidmage Prodigy isn't bad.
I like the idea of Epochffasite, especially since it comes back. But you can also go Myr Superion and be even better. I think the idea can work althought you rely heavy on your turn 1 Vial. An then the only downside is when the SB hate come in.
I thought about Voidmage Prodigy but without Vail hes a 4 cmc counter.
threads seem good but huntmaster and batterskull could be better.
How does RUG beat thrun? Cant counter him, cant burn him, cant bounce him, all i can do is have 2-3 goyfs out to block/attack (which is impossible vs super heavy removal) or endlessly cryptic tap (hard to get going vs so much disruption)