So I was finally able to get some goyfs because modern masters made them cheaper on mtgo. Sadly modern masters increased the price of fetches to where they are the same price as the peak of the last ptq season.
The guy who won the PTQ with this deck did make a couple posts on this forum. He later wrote an article on it here:
It's a very detailed article and he discusses some of the things brought up here.
He went with 4 serum visions because he greatly values turn 1 plays. It is also a sorcery that pumps goyf. Thirst is not card advantage unless you are pitching an aether vial. Thirst will get you 3 cards, but you're also down 3 cards when you factor in you're "discarding" thirst. Also he said his ideal board state was having 2 vials out, one on 2 and one on 3. So the only time you get card advantage off thirst is when you draw your third vial. And even then you can clique your extra vials away. So thirst isn't that great in that respect. Then you factor in the mana cost, and it's pretty clear that visions is better. You want cheaper spells to interact with snapcaster and witness.
He said he didn't like 4cmc creatures like hunt master and glen elendra because they screw up the rest of the deck. You really want to leave your vials on 2 and 3. He also added more creatures main deck compared to Shouta's list, so having more creatures in the board isn't necessary.
I think the main deck is pretty tight. But the sideboard is something to discuss for the new meta. Plus Dustini didn't play against RG aggro nor geist of saint win. And there's also scavenging ooze too.
One of the cards I think that will be needed is sudden shock.
It will always kill the 2/2 ooze. But if they resolve ooze they can activate it and retain priority and keep exiling things. But once they let go of priority you can kill the ooze if it's a 2/2. Sudden shock will probably get a lot of people for a few weeks, then they'll know to play around it. Sudden shock is also okay against deathrite and it can easily break up the melira combo. Sudden shock also kills a few cards in the RG aggro deck, goblin guide, burning tree emissary, and sometimes flinthoof boar. Sudden shock helps prevent you from getting blown out by rampager. You can wait for the goblin guide trigger and sudden shock it and they can't rampager you. You can also go to blocks with your creature and wait to see if they rampager, if they don't you can sudden shock and they can't blow you out with rampager that way.
Pyroclasm is another consideration.
It's good against the pod decks and kills giest. Phantasmal image would be a better solution against geist, but the rules changes don't work like that anymore.
Pillar of flame and magma spray, are useful for the pod match up, namely voice. Though vial does help play around voice's ability, so voice could not matter that much.
But i'm not sure how many shocks you'd want to have in your sideboard. So maybe you just want sudden shock and/or pyroclam.
Plasm Capture seems interesting, but you'd probably have to increase your curve to make it worth while. And playing 4+ cmc creatures doesn't really make this deck better. Maybe if there was some sweet X spell it could be considered. I think lemonbuster shot down why ral zarek isn't good in this deck.
Lastly this deck can play scavenging ooze. Maybe this deck can play ooze over a crypt?
Since I suggested some cards i'd have to cut some cards. I think you'd have to cut some threads since jund isn't as popular, and you'd shave off some spellskites.
Hmm, I wanna love this deck, I even am considering making it, but RTR seems to have neutered if not singlehandedly killed it with DRS and Abrupt Decay. With the upcoming Scavenging Ooze, how can this deck possible survive?
Wouldn't Turn // Burn be great in this deck? I've wanted to permanently deal with X/4+'s a lot with this deck, and sadly, Turn // Burn looks like it's the best at dealing with them (bounce...well...bounces, Dismember is suicidal, Flame Slash doesn't kill X/5+'s), even if I have to pay 5 mana to fry one guy forever.
...Then again, it doesn't kill Scavenging Ooze (or the Ooze player is so dumb that Ooze died to Bolt), and a resolved Ooze wrecks this deck (the Eternal Command lock doesn't work, Goyf shrinks rapidly, Tiago is nerfed, Witness is nerfed, the life gain hampers our aggro plan).
Hmm, I wanna love this deck, I even am considering making it, but RTR seems to have neutered if not singlehandedly killed it with DRS and Abrupt Decay. With the upcoming Scavenging Ooze, how can this deck possible survive?
Did you read the article I linked. Here let me spoon feed you.
Spellskite protects both Threads and Goyfs in the Jund matchup. In the top 8 of the PTQ, I played against 3x Jund, going 6-1 in games with the sideboard plan of -4 Vial, -4 Remand, +4 Skite, +4 Threads.
This guy beat 3 jund decks while bloodbraid elf was legal. Also if you bothered to read the article you can see he takes out vial against jund. So abrupt decay isn't that devastating vs this deck.
Wouldn't Turn // Burn be great in this deck? I've wanted to permanently deal with X/4+'s a lot with this deck, and sadly, Turn // Burn looks like it's the best at dealing with them (bounce...well...bounces, Dismember is suicidal, Flame Slash doesn't kill X/5+'s), even if I have to pay 5 mana to fry one guy forever.
...Then again, it doesn't kill Scavenging Ooze (or the Ooze player is so dumb that Ooze died to Bolt), and a resolved Ooze wrecks this deck (the Eternal Command lock doesn't work, Goyf shrinks rapidly, Tiago is nerfed, Witness is nerfed, the life gain hampers our aggro plan).
...Yeah, can this deck survive Ooze?
turn//burn costs a lot, i can't see playing more than 1 main deck
i think the sideboard card you want vs ooze is sudden shock
Did you read the article I linked. Here let me spoon feed you.
Spellskite protects both Threads and Goyfs in the Jund matchup. In the top 8 of the PTQ, I played against 3x Jund, going 6-1 in games with the sideboard plan of -4 Vial, -4 Remand, +4 Skite, +4 Threads.
This guy beat 3 jund decks while bloodbraid elf was legal. Also if you bothered to read the article you can see he takes out vial against jund. So abrupt decay isn't that devastating vs this deck.
turn//burn costs a lot, i can't see playing more than 1 main deck
i think the sideboard card you want vs ooze is sudden shock
So.. No? Welp cool deck, but DRS and Ooze kills it hard, oh well.
What do you all think about coiling oracle it can generate card advantage with aether vial and help stem bleeding versus aggro. It could also help get cryptic online a turn sooner.
What do you all think about coiling oracle it can generate card advantage with aether vial and help stem bleeding versus aggro. It could also help get cryptic online a turn sooner.
I was going to ask the same thing. I've been enjoying it a lot, plus it works well with Serum Visions and it's a two drop for Vial as well.
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What do you all think about coiling oracle it can generate card advantage with aether vial and help stem bleeding versus aggro. It could also help get cryptic online a turn sooner.
What are you taking out to put in oracle? What is your decklist?
It seems the ramp part is only good if you have cryptic. All the other times it's a cantrip that hardly impacts the board. I could see cutting a snapcaster for 1, but I think i'd rather just wait for ooze to be legal.
I've been wondering how much game this has against the format. I'm considering taking this to the Grand Prix. Is it resilient against most of the decks of the format? Tron, Pod, Aggro, Jund, Control? What do the bad matchups seem like?
I'm still learning how to play the deck. But based on what i've read from Dustin, he says the midrange decks are the most favorable since no midrange deck can trump recurring cryptic commands. He said jund with BBE is a favorable match up, but he also sided in 8 cards for it.
I don't think this deck has too many bad or good match ups. Most of the match ups appear to be in the 45/55 range. It requires a huge amount of play skill to win these close games. Dustin was playing the deck for 6 months!
You can tune your sideboard to make any match up more favorable. I think combo might be unfavorable especially game 1s. Splinter twin is tough since all you have is remand against exarch. But in the sideboard games you get to bring in spellskite and combust.
Also this deck is extremely vulnerable to graveyard hate. If the opponent has 4 leyline of the void or 4 rest in peace you're going to have a hard time winning if they resolve on turn 0 or turn 2. If they ever get 2 of those out, you're just done. As your only out is to bounce those with cryptic and counter them with cryptic. Though your sideboard could have naturalize or krosan grip. I think it's a metagame choice if you want to devote slots to those 2 enchantments. Obviously Dustin made the right call when he was playing that ptq season.
I don't think deathrite is that much of an issue. Dustin changed this deck from Shouta's list to have better success against DRS.
Reid's reasoning against eternal command is pretty sound, but he doesn't compare it to the latest eternal command list. I also wish he would have wrote about the good and bad match ups. Reid's deck is just a pile of good cards, with only 3 goyfs. It's not very exciting.
The deck really wants early pressure, and I think that maybe just playing deathrite shaman might be fine. we can easily play a watery grave, and even darkslick shores if we want to make it a more substantial black splash. It also gives the deck access to cards like abrupt decay which is a premium removal spell, and dark confidant as an amazing 2 drop in this deck.
For those who are thinking about new cards for the deck, I think Izzet charm should probably be a 2 of because of its incredible versatility. Its ability to power through flood, kill key creatures, and counter removal spells on our limited number of threats makes it extremely good in my opinion.
I don't think this deck is that expensive. I think it's the one of the cheaper goyf decks you can make because of modern masters. Unless you're really into RG aggro. That's part of the reason why I am playing it. I got my goyfs for cheap and didn't want to buy lili/thoughtseize.
I think it's just stigma. People think it folds to deathrite shaman too easily. Although some fears may be rational since this deck does lose to RiP and leyline.
Interesting...so really, does playing Vial really give any significant advantage most of the time? Witness + Command is cute a lot of the time and wins the long game, but I've been having trouble with decks like Soul Sisters, and I don't really feel favored against any deck out there...
The deck doesn't just lose to RIP and Leyline because it still has some random 2/1 and 3/1 beat down backed up by burn. Also, thoughtseize/inquisition might be pretty good in a bug version.
You're right. You can beat leyline/rip if you draw a lot of burn and clique. I don't really see snapcaster and witness beats ever winning though.
Interesting...so really, does playing Vial really give any significant advantage most of the time? Witness + Command is cute a lot of the time and wins the long game, but I've been having trouble with decks like Soul Sisters, and I don't really feel favored against any deck out there...
I think you can side out vial vs that deck. I also have pyroclasm in my sideboard to bring in vs that match up. Not letting them land honor of the pure is huge since it makes your electrolyzes weaker.
hmm, so I just got eaten alive by Rest in Peace from a Naya deck, which isn't even that great. I stalled a few turns using multiple Witness + Cryptic by bouncing RiP, but I still lost...Even using some Enchantment removal, I would guess that the deck still struggles. What can you do against that?
hmm, so I just got eaten alive by Rest in Peace from a Naya deck, which isn't even that great. I stalled a few turns using multiple Witness + Cryptic by bouncing RiP, but I still lost...Even using some Enchantment removal, I would guess that the deck still struggles. What can you do against that?
Though the way this deck is configured you're going to have a hard time beating RiP and Leyline. So it's not really worth devoting sideboard slots to deal with those enchantments. This deck is more of a metagame deck where you hope there are not many white based decks packing rest in peace, and you hope there are very few graveyard decks in the format so you're not getting residual hate. So if dredgevine and/or living end become super popular, you probably shouldn't be playing this deck.
You have to remember that people are taking a lot of damage from their own lands and fetches, so people will routinely start a game at around 14 life. If you can hit them a few times with a 2/1, 2 bolts and an eletrolyze will be enough to finish them off.
I had been running firespout to much greater effect because of the fact that it can be modal when you need it to. Lingering souls decks can be incredibly annoying against a deck full of x/1's and giant goyfs. So having the ability to sweep only their creatures is great. Similarly if you have V-clique against an army on the ground, you can just sweep the ground. The other reason I like it better than pyroclasm is that the RG aggro decks have some x/3's like flinthoof bore that don't die to pyroclasm, and I hate having to waste a bolt on it if I don't have to.[/color]
I've been pretty happy with pyroclasm so far. I think the cheaper mana cost is going to come up more often than your scenarios.
bolt is a thing, and on the play, electrolyze is a thing...don't see why that wouldn't work. Having a less versatile card only for a minimal number of situations isn't that great. There is a reason things like Izzet charm are played, even though spell pierce, shock, and faithless looting are all 1 mana less. I think this is the same way. I'm also not sure that pyroclasm on turn 2 just to kill DRS is ever really the right play. goyf or holding up remand just seems infinitely better. Pyroclasm is a sweeper after all, and unless they are on a mull to 5 or something, I think its likely better to just try and eek as much value as you can (which is what this deck is all about).
Edit: the goyf into a turn 1 deathrite against a deck that plays liliana is obviously bad, but holding up 2 mana can often mean that they won't go for it if they know you play counter spells.
Of course bolt is a thing, which is why you need it for the Dark Confidant they're going to drop on turn two when they're plans for dropping a lili are spoiled. Also, relying on your only one drop removal spell to be in your hand every time somebody plays the most powerful one drop play available against you really isn't that smart. Electrolyze is a joke against DRS when youre not on the play and even when you are, you get to kill the DRS right after they cast their turn two lilli...yay?
They'll defintely go for it, because in the grand scheme of things this is one of the most counterlight blue decks in the format (infinite cryptics excluded) compared to the UWR decks running spell snare, mana leak, and remand.
Remand is only better if they dont play thoughtseize first to rip your counterspell, into confidant/goyf, which is pretty much every turn two when a DRS is active and they arn't trying to force a turn 2 lilli. Rarely you'll see a kitchen finks instead which honestly isn't that great to be sitting across from with this deck. If youre on the draw in any of these scenarios, theres literally nothing you can do without bolt, which sucks, and makes me think a singleton Pillar of Flame may be worth it to give you a 5th turn one answer to DRS while also being great against a new card I truly hate, VoR
As far as clasm getting more value late game, absolutely, but that's why we run snapcaster. 1-for-1'ing a DRS is a trade ill make all day in this deck, and that clasm gives you a better tool against lingering souls late game.
EDIT: also, firespout like you said has been amazing in the board. People see pyroclasm and play around it only to have all their X/3's hit the bin.
EDIT2: I see what you mean about killing DRS with electrolyze on the play now, casting it at their upkeep so that they can't float the third mana to cast lilli, and while you do gain a card from electrolyze, they're still open to cast goyf and such while youre tapped out, not to mention you want to be able to win games when you lose the die roll..
makes me think a singleton Pillar of Flame may be worth it to give you a 5th turn one answer to DRS while also being great against a new card I truly hate, VoR
The guy who won the PTQ with this deck did make a couple posts on this forum. He later wrote an article on it here:
http://www.mtgoacademy.com/the-game-begins-on-one-serum-visions-and-eternal-command/
It's a very detailed article and he discusses some of the things brought up here.
He went with 4 serum visions because he greatly values turn 1 plays. It is also a sorcery that pumps goyf. Thirst is not card advantage unless you are pitching an aether vial. Thirst will get you 3 cards, but you're also down 3 cards when you factor in you're "discarding" thirst. Also he said his ideal board state was having 2 vials out, one on 2 and one on 3. So the only time you get card advantage off thirst is when you draw your third vial. And even then you can clique your extra vials away. So thirst isn't that great in that respect. Then you factor in the mana cost, and it's pretty clear that visions is better. You want cheaper spells to interact with snapcaster and witness.
He said he didn't like 4cmc creatures like hunt master and glen elendra because they screw up the rest of the deck. You really want to leave your vials on 2 and 3. He also added more creatures main deck compared to Shouta's list, so having more creatures in the board isn't necessary.
I think the main deck is pretty tight. But the sideboard is something to discuss for the new meta. Plus Dustini didn't play against RG aggro nor geist of saint win. And there's also scavenging ooze too.
1 Breeding Pool
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Flooded Grove
1 Forest
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
4 Eternal Witness
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
Other Spells (24)
4 Aether Vial
4 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
4 Spellskite
4 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Tormod's Crypt
One of the cards I think that will be needed is sudden shock.
It will always kill the 2/2 ooze. But if they resolve ooze they can activate it and retain priority and keep exiling things. But once they let go of priority you can kill the ooze if it's a 2/2. Sudden shock will probably get a lot of people for a few weeks, then they'll know to play around it. Sudden shock is also okay against deathrite and it can easily break up the melira combo. Sudden shock also kills a few cards in the RG aggro deck, goblin guide, burning tree emissary, and sometimes flinthoof boar. Sudden shock helps prevent you from getting blown out by rampager. You can wait for the goblin guide trigger and sudden shock it and they can't rampager you. You can also go to blocks with your creature and wait to see if they rampager, if they don't you can sudden shock and they can't blow you out with rampager that way.
Pyroclasm is another consideration.
It's good against the pod decks and kills giest. Phantasmal image would be a better solution against geist, but the rules changes don't work like that anymore.
Pillar of flame and magma spray, are useful for the pod match up, namely voice. Though vial does help play around voice's ability, so voice could not matter that much.
But i'm not sure how many shocks you'd want to have in your sideboard. So maybe you just want sudden shock and/or pyroclam.
Plasm Capture seems interesting, but you'd probably have to increase your curve to make it worth while. And playing 4+ cmc creatures doesn't really make this deck better. Maybe if there was some sweet X spell it could be considered. I think lemonbuster shot down why ral zarek isn't good in this deck.
Lastly this deck can play scavenging ooze. Maybe this deck can play ooze over a crypt?
Since I suggested some cards i'd have to cut some cards. I think you'd have to cut some threads since jund isn't as popular, and you'd shave off some spellskites.
-2 threads
-1 spellskite
-1 crypt
-1 grudge
+2 ooze
+2 sudden shock
+1 pyroclasm
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
4 Spellskite
4 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
3 Spellskite
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sudden Shock
1 pyroclasm
...Then again, it doesn't kill Scavenging Ooze (or the Ooze player is so dumb that Ooze died to Bolt), and a resolved Ooze wrecks this deck (the Eternal Command lock doesn't work, Goyf shrinks rapidly, Tiago is nerfed, Witness is nerfed, the life gain hampers our aggro plan).
...Yeah, can this deck survive Ooze?
Did you read the article I linked. Here let me spoon feed you.
Spellskite protects both Threads and Goyfs in the Jund matchup. In the top 8 of the PTQ, I played against 3x Jund, going 6-1 in games with the sideboard plan of -4 Vial, -4 Remand, +4 Skite, +4 Threads.
This guy beat 3 jund decks while bloodbraid elf was legal. Also if you bothered to read the article you can see he takes out vial against jund. So abrupt decay isn't that devastating vs this deck.
turn//burn costs a lot, i can't see playing more than 1 main deck
i think the sideboard card you want vs ooze is sudden shock
So.. No? Welp cool deck, but DRS and Ooze kills it hard, oh well.
I was going to ask the same thing. I've been enjoying it a lot, plus it works well with Serum Visions and it's a two drop for Vial as well.
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What are you taking out to put in oracle? What is your decklist?
It seems the ramp part is only good if you have cryptic. All the other times it's a cantrip that hardly impacts the board. I could see cutting a snapcaster for 1, but I think i'd rather just wait for ooze to be legal.
It is it something you definitely don't want on the field? yes. Pushing decks out of the format? I dont think so.
Yes it's probably not going to replace deathrite, but I still think you'd want sudden shock in your sideboard for it.
I also think this deck could play an ooze in the main deck, probably over 1 snapcaster mage. Or you can play ooze in the sideboard.
I don't think this deck has too many bad or good match ups. Most of the match ups appear to be in the 45/55 range. It requires a huge amount of play skill to win these close games. Dustin was playing the deck for 6 months!
You can tune your sideboard to make any match up more favorable. I think combo might be unfavorable especially game 1s. Splinter twin is tough since all you have is remand against exarch. But in the sideboard games you get to bring in spellskite and combust.
Also this deck is extremely vulnerable to graveyard hate. If the opponent has 4 leyline of the void or 4 rest in peace you're going to have a hard time winning if they resolve on turn 0 or turn 2. If they ever get 2 of those out, you're just done. As your only out is to bounce those with cryptic and counter them with cryptic. Though your sideboard could have naturalize or krosan grip. I think it's a metagame choice if you want to devote slots to those 2 enchantments. Obviously Dustin made the right call when he was playing that ptq season.
I don't think deathrite is that much of an issue. Dustin changed this deck from Shouta's list to have better success against DRS.
Reid's reasoning against eternal command is pretty sound, but he doesn't compare it to the latest eternal command list. I also wish he would have wrote about the good and bad match ups. Reid's deck is just a pile of good cards, with only 3 goyfs. It's not very exciting.
Do you have a decklist?
Why isn't Shouta's deck more popular even with his good results? Price? Skill level?
I think it's just stigma. People think it folds to deathrite shaman too easily. Although some fears may be rational since this deck does lose to RiP and leyline.
You're right. You can beat leyline/rip if you draw a lot of burn and clique. I don't really see snapcaster and witness beats ever winning though.
I think you can side out vial vs that deck. I also have pyroclasm in my sideboard to bring in vs that match up. Not letting them land honor of the pure is huge since it makes your electrolyzes weaker.
Instead of ancient grudge you could play naturalize.
Though the way this deck is configured you're going to have a hard time beating RiP and Leyline. So it's not really worth devoting sideboard slots to deal with those enchantments. This deck is more of a metagame deck where you hope there are not many white based decks packing rest in peace, and you hope there are very few graveyard decks in the format so you're not getting residual hate. So if dredgevine and/or living end become super popular, you probably shouldn't be playing this deck.
I've been pretty happy with pyroclasm so far. I think the cheaper mana cost is going to come up more often than your scenarios.
Of course bolt is a thing, which is why you need it for the Dark Confidant they're going to drop on turn two when they're plans for dropping a lili are spoiled. Also, relying on your only one drop removal spell to be in your hand every time somebody plays the most powerful one drop play available against you really isn't that smart. Electrolyze is a joke against DRS when youre not on the play and even when you are, you get to kill the DRS right after they cast their turn two lilli...yay?
They'll defintely go for it, because in the grand scheme of things this is one of the most counterlight blue decks in the format (infinite cryptics excluded) compared to the UWR decks running spell snare, mana leak, and remand.
Remand is only better if they dont play thoughtseize first to rip your counterspell, into confidant/goyf, which is pretty much every turn two when a DRS is active and they arn't trying to force a turn 2 lilli. Rarely you'll see a kitchen finks instead which honestly isn't that great to be sitting across from with this deck. If youre on the draw in any of these scenarios, theres literally nothing you can do without bolt, which sucks, and makes me think a singleton Pillar of Flame may be worth it to give you a 5th turn one answer to DRS while also being great against a new card I truly hate, VoR
As far as clasm getting more value late game, absolutely, but that's why we run snapcaster. 1-for-1'ing a DRS is a trade ill make all day in this deck, and that clasm gives you a better tool against lingering souls late game.
EDIT: also, firespout like you said has been amazing in the board. People see pyroclasm and play around it only to have all their X/3's hit the bin.
EDIT2: I see what you mean about killing DRS with electrolyze on the play now, casting it at their upkeep so that they can't float the third mana to cast lilli, and while you do gain a card from electrolyze, they're still open to cast goyf and such while youre tapped out, not to mention you want to be able to win games when you lose the die roll..
Oh good, lots of good discussion here.
magma spray and flame slash are also options