Uh... What? It's what's holding Zoo back from completely massacring the entire field. Punishing Fires and Grove of the Burnwillows are fine. This looks like butthurt, really.
As far as I can tell, Emrakul is really the only thing they missed that glaringly needs to be banned. When the turn 3 Emrakul/Blightsteel is a defining test of a format, something has gone horrifically wrong.
Uh... What? It's what's holding Zoo back from completely massacring the entire field. Punishing Fires and Grove of the Burnwillows are fine. This looks like butthurt, really.
Really? 'This looks like butthurt' is your argument? How does it hold back Zoo? Killing Qasali Pridemage? Whoop-de-fracking-doo.
PFire likely isn't quite bannable, but it's infuriatingly oppressive against a lot of creatures. It's almost like a Remove Soul with Buyback - Opponent gains 1 life.
Really? 'This looks like butthurt' is your argument? How does it hold back Zoo? Killing Qasali Pridemage? Whoop-de-fracking-doo.
PFire likely isn't quite bannable, but it's infuriatingly oppressive against a lot of creatures. It's almost like a Remove Soul with Buyback - Opponent gains 1 life.
I can't think of any other cards that honestly need to be banned ATM. If the meta game becomes ruled by one deck something might need to be added though.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I expect punishing/grove combo to get big now that the format is a bit slower now. Expect the the next big hollar fest for a ban to be either punishing fire or groves.
I expect punishing/grove combo to get big now that the format is a bit slower now. Expect the the next big hollar fest for a ban to be either punishing fire or groves.
ban more artifact for affinity and zoo creature.
also ban the whole twin combo.
ban pod and living end.
ban more artifact for affinity and zoo creature.
also ban the whole twin combo.
ban pod and living end.
ZOMG BANZ COMBO BECAUSE I IZ NUB
Seriously? I think they've banned enough combo decks. The decks that are left are now about the same speed as aggro anyways. I can't see Twin, Melira, or Living end nut-drawing and killing you on T1-2. Every actual fast combo deck has been nerfed, and with cloudpost gone control can safely return to control the combo decks. Also, ban affinity? Really? Just play Pyroclasm/Shattering Spree/Ancient Grudge/the new white Null Rod/etc.
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Legacy: UBRGW T.E.S. UUUSpiral Tide
Modern: UBR Grixis Control
EDH: UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
ban more artifact for affinity and zoo creature.
also ban the whole twin combo.
ban pod and living end.
Before people jump on this guy, I am pretty sure he is just being sarcastic. People are calling for more bannings directed at certain tournament level engines, and hopesnow thinks that is ridiculous. His English is not that proficient, so the humor in his post does not get across.
By saying "ban all of these other cards too!" hopesnow is parodying the banning process and those who are calling for additional bans. Unfortunately, this is not coming across. Then again, I might be totally wrong and he might just be trolling, but I am willing to offer the benefit of the doubt.
Before people jump on this guy, I am pretty sure he is just being sarcastic. People are calling for more bannings directed at certain tournament level engines, and hopesnow thinks that is ridiculous. His English is not that proficient, so the humor in his post does not get across.
By saying "ban all of these other cards too!" hopesnow is parodying the banning process and those who are calling for additional bans. Unfortunately, this is not coming across. Then again, I might be totally wrong and he might just be trolling, but I am willing to offer the benefit of the doubt.
-ktkenshinx-
I don't know he has been saying this since before the first wave of bannings started. Also he didn't want cloudpost banned...might be bitter.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Not trying to violate any rules, but I think that people need to back off from the "just run X in your sideboard" argument. The problem with that line of thinking is that you only have so much space in your sideboard that you can dedicate to hate. Let's pretend that this format had Dredge, Affinity, ANT and Stax. Let's pretend that all of these decks could consistently win the game or lock you out on turn 3 (in the case of Stax), but could also do so on turn 2 (and in the case of ANT, do so with a high degree of consistency). Someone would lose to ANT on turn 2, cry, and be told to "play sideboard hate." Well, if he dedicates 5 cards to his SB to hate out ANT, then there's still other archetypes out there that will kill him just as fast.
I know, this is an extreme and impossible example given that most of these decks cannot be built in Modern. I am not suggesting otherwise. That's not my point. My point is that if Modern is filled with Infect decks that kill you on turn 2, Hypergenesis decks that kill you on turn 2 and Storm decks that kill you on turn 2 (you get the idea), then there's no way that you'd be able to sideboard in enough cards to deal with every deck that's going to kill you on turn 2. Magic becomes a game of luck, and the winner becomes the person who lucked out a played the deck that no one brought hate for (Dredge anyone?).
This is even ignoring the fact that it's just plain wrong for a deck to have a nearly unlosable game 1. Telling me to put Sudden Shock in my sideboard doesn't exactly console the fact that an Infect deck could kill me on turn 2 in game 1 often enough that it made my deck obsolete. Even if I did kill his creature in g2, in game 3 he could still kill me before I even had 2 lands in play to Sudden Shock his Infector. This is a very real example and illustrates why the deck was banned. Just because answers exist, that doesn't mean that deck will stay in check. There are lots of cards that hate out Dredge and it stills shows up every now and then to win tournaments. It even won the Vintage World's (or whatever it's called). Do you know how many hate cards stomp Dredge? The sideboard guessing game isn't enough to stop a deck from completely defining a format. There are too many decks that required too many specific "hate" cards in order to stop them from completely destroying you and your deck. Yes, you could sideboard in answers to Infect-Shoal in games 2 and 3. That didn't stop it from being an incredibly powerful and consistent deck. As with all of the other turn 2-3 wins, they basically had to ban it, regardless of the fact that you could simply sideboard hate for it.
EDIT: Bear in mind that I'm just as lost as you guys when it comes to the GSZ banning. Yes, it made Green decks similar, but by no means did it enable Green decks to win on turn 3 or whatever. It's a very strong card, and it makes decks less diverse, but that doesn't seem like a good enough reason to ban it. By that logic cards like FOW, Daze, and Brainstorm should also be banned in Legacy because they see ubiquitous play in top tier decks. It's not about banning broken cards, just solid cards that decks of that color want to field. Seems very strange.
FOW, Daze, and Brainstorm isn't the offender. Its those damn Islands, they should ban them all.
I think Green Sun was oppressing the format. You can fetch for green combo pieces. Fetch for Teeg for combo hate. Fetch for Loaming Shaman for instant graveyard hate. Bottom line, the card was too efficient and too versatile. It didn't enable turn x kills but it made green decks strong. Same reason why cloudpost was banned. It wasn't as if you can get turn 3 kills with cloudpost. It was just the elephant in the room and no other deck seemed interesting with it around.
FOW, Daze, and Brainstorm isn't the offender. Its those damn Islands, they should ban them all.
I know that you're just joking around, but I want to make it clear I'm not suggesting that those cards should be banned. I'm just saying that if the criteria for banned cards include cards that reduce the diversity of decks by providing them with "catch-all" solutions to their problems, then free counters and Brainstorm in Blue would definitely fall into that category if we looked at Legacy for example.
I think Green Sun was oppressing the format. You can fetch for green combo pieces. Fetch for Teeg for combo hate. Fetch for Loaming Shaman for instant graveyard hate. Bottom line, the card was too efficient and too versatile. It didn't enable turn x kills but it made green decks strong. Same reason why cloudpost was banned. It wasn't as if you can get turn 3 kills with cloudpost. It was just the elephant in the room and no other deck seemed interesting with it around.
Pretty much this and the fact that wotc wants the meta game to be as diverse as possible. This one card made zoo to versatile, not to mention that it also make things too much alike. A bant deck and a Zoo deck should be ascetically different.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Pretty much this and the fact that wotc wants the meta game to be as diverse as possible. This one card made zoo to versatile, not to mention that it also make things too much alike. A bant deck and a Zoo deck should be ascetically different.
While I understand that argument, and I'm not disagreeing or upset with the banning, I'm wondering why they then think that it's ok for every single top tier Legacy deck to have 4x Wasteland 4x FOW 4x Brainstorm and 4x Daze. I honestly don't know how GSZ could be oppressing Modern without having those cards be stomping on Legacy's throat. Let's be clear, 100% of every deck will not have those 12 cards, but people do make a big deal when a non-FOW deck wins something in Legacy.
While I understand that argument, and I'm not disagreeing or upset with the banning, I'm wondering why they then think that it's ok for every single top tier Legacy deck to have 4x Wasteland 4x FOW 4x Brainstorm and 4x Daze. I honestly don't know how GSZ could be oppressing Modern without having those cards be stomping on Legacy's throat.
Modern /=\ legacy
Legacy is how it is because of certain cards that have/are defining that format. This is why modern is going to be so great because it's new and doesn't already have any sacred cows. If a deck gets OP or a card is busted it will get axed. Now we just need to get to a few unbannings.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
So far the banlist seems fine, although I agree that Past in Flames has the potential to undo all the fixing. My personal pick for banning is Wild Nacatl for the exact reason they banned Green Sun's Zenith: Zoo monopolizes all things aggro and pushes every other possible aggro deck out of existence. Although some blame goyf for this, I think Nacatl is the real guilty: Goyf was particularly underplayed during the Lorwyn era (and plenty of tribal aggro decks without goyf were viable) and as a two drop there are plenty of other specialized two drops that can compete; however, no other aggro deck can really compete with a turn 1 nacatl, and that hurts the diversity of the format. If Zenith got banned, then some specific piece of Zoo deserves at least some consideration.
So far the banlist seems fine, although I agree that Past in Flames has the potential to undo all the fixing. My personal pick for banning is Wild Nacatl for the exact reason they banned Green Sun's Zenith: Zoo monopolizes all things aggro and pushes every other possible aggro deck out of existence. Although some blame goyf for this, I think Nacatl is the real guilty: Goyf was particularly underplayed during the Lorwyn era (and plenty of tribal aggro decks without goyf were viable) and as a two drop there are plenty of other specialized two drops that can compete; however, no other aggro deck can really compete with a turn 1 nacatl, and that hurts the diversity of the format. If Zenith got banned, then some specific piece of Zoo deserves at least some consideration.
Well traditionally one aggro deck will always be better than the rest. In this format we actually have 2-3 that are playable. Zoo,Affinity, and Doran all seem viable depending on how the meta evolves.
Looking at standard is a pretty bad comparison because the card pool is much larger in modern, and the mana fixing is such that any deck can essentially run any card if that deck wanted it.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
While I understand that argument, and I'm not disagreeing or upset with the banning, I'm wondering why they then think that it's ok for every single top tier Legacy deck to have 4x Wasteland 4x FOW 4x Brainstorm and 4x Daze. I honestly don't know how GSZ could be oppressing Modern without having those cards be stomping on Legacy's throat. Let's be clear, 100% of every deck will not have those 12 cards, but people do make a big deal when a non-FOW deck wins something in Legacy.
I think mostly because Legacy is supposed to be a different format. An older format, with a lot of pre-existing diversity already in the mix. The banned list in Legacy evolved over a much longer period of time and under a slightly different philosophy - and cards like FoW, Wasteland and Daze are rather necessary to maintain that philosophy.
With Modern, they're (deliberately) being more aggressive with the list, and I'm guessing it's in the hopes of getting to a similar state as Legacy's list currently is in a shorter period of time. I'm going out on a limb with this, but: I expect unbannings will come, if not in the next update then in the one after that. And I expect GSZ will be on the list for unbanning at that time; probably Ancestral Visions as well, though I'm less certain on that one.
I think mostly because Legacy is supposed to be a different format. An older format, with a lot of pre-existing diversity already in the mix. The banned list in Legacy evolved over a much longer period of time and under a slightly different philosophy - and cards like FoW, Wasteland and Daze are rather necessary to maintain that philosophy.
With Modern, they're (deliberately) being more aggressive with the list, and I'm guessing it's in the hopes of getting to a similar state as Legacy's list currently is in a shorter period of time. I'm going out on a limb with this, but: I expect unbannings will come, if not in the next update then in the one after that. And I expect GSZ will be on the list for unbanning at that time; probably Ancestral Visions as well, though I'm less certain on that one.
Honestly GSZ > Ancestral Vision
GSZ is actually powerful, the only play AV would see is because it is the best of the worst. I mean in this format thirst for knowledge isn't really that playable as you will either be pitching two cards to it or be running a deck full of crappy artifacts.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Legacy is how it is because of certain cards that have/are defining that format. This is why modern is going to be so great because it's new and doesn't already have any sacred cows. If a deck gets OP or a card is busted it will get axed. Now we just need to get to a few unbannings.
I believe Modern will be an excellent format in the long run... if the 'target audience' doesn't completely abandon it over the instability during this formative period.
Last night I saw why GSZ was banned. It makes a losing situation for someone into a winning. If my opponent didn't draw and shuffle back 3 GSZ's, he would have not been in the game. It was annoying...lol. GSZ was a good ban IMO.
I believe Modern will be an excellent format in the long run... if the 'target audience' doesn't completely abandon it over the instability during this formative period.
I also believe the unbannings will come.
i think none of unbaning and baning will still happen to make the format totally difference from legacy.
modern will become weaker or same as ext.i remember that many combo available in ext in many years old but banned in modern.
i think none of unbaning and baning will still happen to make the format totally difference from legacy.
modern will become weaker or same as ext.i remember that many combo available in ext in many years old but banned in modern.
The format IS suppose to be different from Legacy. That has been said from the beginning. I dont know how it can be weaker then Extended when the card pool is bigger. Banning 20 cards isnt weakening the format that much. Now if you want to argue your favorite card sgot banned or degenerate/overpowered cards you enjoyed playing with were banned, you might have an argument.
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Uh... What? It's what's holding Zoo back from completely massacring the entire field. Punishing Fires and Grove of the Burnwillows are fine. This looks like butthurt, really.
As far as I can tell, Emrakul is really the only thing they missed that glaringly needs to be banned. When the turn 3 Emrakul/Blightsteel is a defining test of a format, something has gone horrifically wrong.
Really? 'This looks like butthurt' is your argument? How does it hold back Zoo? Killing Qasali Pridemage? Whoop-de-fracking-doo.
PFire likely isn't quite bannable, but it's infuriatingly oppressive against a lot of creatures. It's almost like a Remove Soul with Buyback - Opponent gains 1 life.
exile it from the game easily.
But there are plenty of ways to deal with it, I know that. But it still can cause a lot of aggrivation.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
ban more artifact for affinity and zoo creature.
also ban the whole twin combo.
ban pod and living end.
ZOMG BANZ COMBO BECAUSE I IZ NUB
Seriously? I think they've banned enough combo decks. The decks that are left are now about the same speed as aggro anyways. I can't see Twin, Melira, or Living end nut-drawing and killing you on T1-2. Every actual fast combo deck has been nerfed, and with cloudpost gone control can safely return to control the combo decks. Also, ban affinity? Really? Just play Pyroclasm/Shattering Spree/Ancient Grudge/the new white Null Rod/etc.
UBRGW T.E.S.
UUUSpiral Tide
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
EDH:
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
Before people jump on this guy, I am pretty sure he is just being sarcastic. People are calling for more bannings directed at certain tournament level engines, and hopesnow thinks that is ridiculous. His English is not that proficient, so the humor in his post does not get across.
By saying "ban all of these other cards too!" hopesnow is parodying the banning process and those who are calling for additional bans. Unfortunately, this is not coming across. Then again, I might be totally wrong and he might just be trolling, but I am willing to offer the benefit of the doubt.
-ktkenshinx-
I don't know he has been saying this since before the first wave of bannings started. Also he didn't want cloudpost banned...might be bitter.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I know, this is an extreme and impossible example given that most of these decks cannot be built in Modern. I am not suggesting otherwise. That's not my point. My point is that if Modern is filled with Infect decks that kill you on turn 2, Hypergenesis decks that kill you on turn 2 and Storm decks that kill you on turn 2 (you get the idea), then there's no way that you'd be able to sideboard in enough cards to deal with every deck that's going to kill you on turn 2. Magic becomes a game of luck, and the winner becomes the person who lucked out a played the deck that no one brought hate for (Dredge anyone?).
This is even ignoring the fact that it's just plain wrong for a deck to have a nearly unlosable game 1. Telling me to put Sudden Shock in my sideboard doesn't exactly console the fact that an Infect deck could kill me on turn 2 in game 1 often enough that it made my deck obsolete. Even if I did kill his creature in g2, in game 3 he could still kill me before I even had 2 lands in play to Sudden Shock his Infector. This is a very real example and illustrates why the deck was banned. Just because answers exist, that doesn't mean that deck will stay in check. There are lots of cards that hate out Dredge and it stills shows up every now and then to win tournaments. It even won the Vintage World's (or whatever it's called). Do you know how many hate cards stomp Dredge? The sideboard guessing game isn't enough to stop a deck from completely defining a format. There are too many decks that required too many specific "hate" cards in order to stop them from completely destroying you and your deck. Yes, you could sideboard in answers to Infect-Shoal in games 2 and 3. That didn't stop it from being an incredibly powerful and consistent deck. As with all of the other turn 2-3 wins, they basically had to ban it, regardless of the fact that you could simply sideboard hate for it.
EDIT: Bear in mind that I'm just as lost as you guys when it comes to the GSZ banning. Yes, it made Green decks similar, but by no means did it enable Green decks to win on turn 3 or whatever. It's a very strong card, and it makes decks less diverse, but that doesn't seem like a good enough reason to ban it. By that logic cards like FOW, Daze, and Brainstorm should also be banned in Legacy because they see ubiquitous play in top tier decks. It's not about banning broken cards, just solid cards that decks of that color want to field. Seems very strange.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I think Green Sun was oppressing the format. You can fetch for green combo pieces. Fetch for Teeg for combo hate. Fetch for Loaming Shaman for instant graveyard hate. Bottom line, the card was too efficient and too versatile. It didn't enable turn x kills but it made green decks strong. Same reason why cloudpost was banned. It wasn't as if you can get turn 3 kills with cloudpost. It was just the elephant in the room and no other deck seemed interesting with it around.
I know that you're just joking around, but I want to make it clear I'm not suggesting that those cards should be banned. I'm just saying that if the criteria for banned cards include cards that reduce the diversity of decks by providing them with "catch-all" solutions to their problems, then free counters and Brainstorm in Blue would definitely fall into that category if we looked at Legacy for example.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Pretty much this and the fact that wotc wants the meta game to be as diverse as possible. This one card made zoo to versatile, not to mention that it also make things too much alike. A bant deck and a Zoo deck should be ascetically different.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
While I understand that argument, and I'm not disagreeing or upset with the banning, I'm wondering why they then think that it's ok for every single top tier Legacy deck to have 4x Wasteland 4x FOW 4x Brainstorm and 4x Daze. I honestly don't know how GSZ could be oppressing Modern without having those cards be stomping on Legacy's throat. Let's be clear, 100% of every deck will not have those 12 cards, but people do make a big deal when a non-FOW deck wins something in Legacy.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Modern /=\ legacy
Legacy is how it is because of certain cards that have/are defining that format. This is why modern is going to be so great because it's new and doesn't already have any sacred cows. If a deck gets OP or a card is busted it will get axed. Now we just need to get to a few unbannings.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Blinkmoth Nexus -> Memnite -> Mox Opal -> Signal Pest -> Ornithopter -> Vault Skirge -> Frogmite
Affinity says "hi!"
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Well traditionally one aggro deck will always be better than the rest. In this format we actually have 2-3 that are playable. Zoo,Affinity, and Doran all seem viable depending on how the meta evolves.
Looking at standard is a pretty bad comparison because the card pool is much larger in modern, and the mana fixing is such that any deck can essentially run any card if that deck wanted it.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I think mostly because Legacy is supposed to be a different format. An older format, with a lot of pre-existing diversity already in the mix. The banned list in Legacy evolved over a much longer period of time and under a slightly different philosophy - and cards like FoW, Wasteland and Daze are rather necessary to maintain that philosophy.
With Modern, they're (deliberately) being more aggressive with the list, and I'm guessing it's in the hopes of getting to a similar state as Legacy's list currently is in a shorter period of time. I'm going out on a limb with this, but: I expect unbannings will come, if not in the next update then in the one after that. And I expect GSZ will be on the list for unbanning at that time; probably Ancestral Visions as well, though I'm less certain on that one.
Honestly GSZ > Ancestral Vision
GSZ is actually powerful, the only play AV would see is because it is the best of the worst. I mean in this format thirst for knowledge isn't really that playable as you will either be pitching two cards to it or be running a deck full of crappy artifacts.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I believe Modern will be an excellent format in the long run... if the 'target audience' doesn't completely abandon it over the instability during this formative period.
I also believe the unbannings will come.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
i think none of unbaning and baning will still happen to make the format totally difference from legacy.
modern will become weaker or same as ext.i remember that many combo available in ext in many years old but banned in modern.
The format IS suppose to be different from Legacy. That has been said from the beginning. I dont know how it can be weaker then Extended when the card pool is bigger. Banning 20 cards isnt weakening the format that much. Now if you want to argue your favorite card sgot banned or degenerate/overpowered cards you enjoyed playing with were banned, you might have an argument.