emrakul. look at how many shenanigans that card causes. also goyf, becuase it is far too ubiquitous. people splash green for it even in decks you wouldn't normally think of a deck with goyf.. and guess what? its usually really good even though.
I admit that the "deck diversity" argument is maybe the oddest that I've heard of for a banning (in the case of GSZ). It's not so much that I don't think it was incredibly powerful in this format and that the ban probably makes the format better. Rather, this particular argument is relatively new and could be extended to other cards in the format. I will admit I'd be happy to see 'goyf go, but that's 'cause of sour grapes at only having one and not wanting to get three more to play ANY green deck competitively. That having been said, there would be some argument for V. Clique and maybe some other cards that show up in 99% of decks with a given color. 'goyf is probably the worst offender, however.
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The format IS suppose to be different from Legacy. That has been said from the beginning. I dont know how it can be weaker then Extended when the card pool is bigger. Banning 20 cards isnt weakening the format that much. Now if you want to argue your favorite card sgot banned or degenerate/overpowered cards you enjoyed playing with were banned, you might have an argument.
card pool bigger dont mean strong.
if i banned 100 more card in modern. the card pool still bigger than ext and thats all.
many old ext combo still available until out set like dark depths
modern format not only different from legacy and also ext.it want to keep a stable and slow to win game format
i think the 3rd ban some more cards would happen rather than unban some cards
card pool bigger dont mean strong.
if i banned 100 more card in modern. the card pool still bigger than ext and thats all.
many old ext combo still available until out set like dark depths
modern format not only different from legacy and also ext.it want to keep a stable and slow to win game format
i think the 3rd ban some more cards would happen rather than unban some cards
When Legacy started up it took a while to balance the format and bannings were needed. Look atthe ban list in Legacy. Figure Moderns ban list will be close to the same size before it will be truely balanced and diverse. Then and only then can they start unbanning cards.
Its going to take time, and there are going to be more bans.
I admit that the "deck diversity" argument is maybe the oddest that I've heard of for a banning (in the case of GSZ). It's not so much that I don't think it was incredibly powerful in this format and that the ban probably makes the format better. Rather, this particular argument is relatively new and could be extended to other cards in the format. I will admit I'd be happy to see 'goyf go, but that's 'cause of sour grapes at only having one and not wanting to get three more to play ANY green deck competitively. That having been said, there would be some argument for V. Clique and maybe some other cards that show up in 99% of decks with a given color. 'goyf is probably the worst offender, however.
I sure hope they don't ban venny clique. Its the only win condition control decks have left.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I don't think many would be sad to see Goyf go, but mostly because of its ridiculous price, not because of how good it is. Vendilion Clique will never be banned because it's just not that good. It's a great card, but it gives you a specious advantage. At 1UU, it's not super splashable like Goyf, nor is it as big as easily as Goyf. What's more, Vendilion Clique is easy to kill, while Goyf typically requires something better than a bolt.
I still think that if they want the format to be healthy, they need a blue card similar to Force of Will in Modern. If not Mental Misstep, then something like it (ah, they banned it in Legacy, nevermind - guess the card's not going to be unbanned for a long time).
I don't think many would be sad to see Goyf go, but mostly because of its ridiculous price, not because of how good it is. Vendilion Clique will never be banned because it's just not that good. It's a great card, but it gives you a specious advantage. At 1UU, it's not super splashable like Goyf, nor is it as big as easily as Goyf. What's more, Vendilion Clique is easy to kill, while Goyf typically requires something better than a bolt.
I still think that if they want the format to be healthy, they need a blue card similar to Force of Will in Modern. If not Mental Misstep, then something like it (ah, they banned it in Legacy, nevermind - guess the card's not going to be unbanned for a long time).
I'm not sure a free counterspell is the answer. Something like the card counterspell would be ok. Really what U needs is a way to play thirst for knowledge without having to run a bunch of crappy artifacts, and a way to cast mana leak on turn 1.
As for the cards that should be banned right now, I can't think of anything that is in need of being banned immediately.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
the banned list will work next week, then we can see which deck the people love most.
i am gald to see the 3 rd banned list towards the best of 3 decks in modern.
I don't think many would be sad to see Goyf go, but mostly because of its ridiculous price, not because of how good it is. Vendilion Clique will never be banned because it's just not that good. It's a great card, but it gives you a specious advantage. At 1UU, it's not super splashable like Goyf, nor is it as big as easily as Goyf. What's more, Vendilion Clique is easy to kill, while Goyf typically requires something better than a bolt.
I still think that if they want the format to be healthy, they need a blue card similar to Force of Will in Modern. If not Mental Misstep, then something like it (ah, they banned it in Legacy, nevermind - guess the card's not going to be unbanned for a long time).
I think banning Goyf actually makes more sense than GSZ if you go by the reason they gave.
Quote from Erik Lauer »
However, this ends up with fewer different decks being played in practice, as Green Sun's Zenith is such a good choice that there are fewer green decks that do anything else. The DCI hopes that banning Green Sun's Zenith increases diversity among Modern green decks.
The fact that almost every deck running green benefits from running Goyf (other than Elves) makes green lack diversity. Any deck that runs green that isn't tribal is going to start off with 4x Goyf and he is the only reason some decks even splash green. I will agree that GSZ provides consistency and reliability but it also encourages good deckbuilding and, I think, encourages diversity. What Modern green deck are you going to be playing that isn't going to be running Goyf?
If Mental Misstep ever gets unbanned then there would be no reason to have GSZ remain banned.
I think banning Goyf actually makes more sense than GSZ if you go by the reason they gave.
The fact that almost every deck running green benefits from running Goyf (other than Elves) makes green lack diversity. Any deck that runs green that isn't tribal is going to start off with 4x Goyf and he is the only reason some decks even splash green. I will agree that GSZ provides consistency and reliability but it also encourages good deckbuilding and, I think, encourages diversity. What Modern green deck are you going to be playing that isn't going to be running Goyf?
If Mental Misstep ever gets unbanned then there would be no reason to have GSZ remain banned.
What? I guess so you can't get dryad arbor since the x actually factors in the cmc of x spells when they're on the stack. That's the only sense I can make from your statement.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Before 9/20 I would have believed that WotC was more likely to reprint Goyf than they would be to ban it, but now I just don't know. Modern basically (and rightly) requires you to run good removal, and Goyf is just so easy to remove. I do get a little tired of seeing it all the time, but that is the nature of an eternal format
If you're bored of Goyf decks, how about running 1 of the 100 cards in modern that remove him before he gets big. If an opponent drops Goyf turn 2, you have several turns to deal with him before he gets powerful. I won't even list all the cards that can deal with him by turn 4, because there are honestly way too many to list here. He can be removed with hand disruption, counters, spot removal, sweepers, etc. Every single deck tier 1 modern decklist that I've seen has at least a couple different ways to deal with Goyf. He isn't hexproof, he doesn't fly, he doesn't pump up any of your other creatues, and he takes quite a few turns to become big. I've played a ton of games both against and with Goyf in this format and he is rarely bigger than a 3/4 before he is dealt with (at least against a competent opponent). People who call for a Goyf banning get accused that it's solely on cost because there really isn't any logical reason to ban him. The fact that a card is used in a bunch of different decks is not a reason to ban it unless it either: a) makes a certain archetype unplayable or b) is somehow broken in combination with another card in the format.
For those of you who want to see him banned, could you elaborate on why?
If you're bored of Goyf decks, how about running 1 of the 100 cards in modern that remove him before he gets big. If an opponent drops Goyf turn 2, you have several turns to deal with him before he gets powerful.
Packing answers to Goyf is a solution to "losing to goyf decks," not "bored of goyf decks." The two may frequently correlate, but they're not quite the same thing.
In Modern, Goyf is like Lightning Bolt. If you are playing red, you play Lighting Bolt. If you are playing green, you play Tarmogoyf.
Except decks don't splash red just for lightning bolt. Not saying that goyf needs to be banned, but it is by far the best creature in this format. Actually the best creature in any format its been legal in.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Except decks don't splash red just for lightning bolt. Not saying that goyf needs to be banned, but it is by far the best creature in this format. Actually the best creature in any format its been legal in.
Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
Emmy? Really? I have been beaten by Emmy once, and my deck was not in good shape at the time.
I agree. I haven't seen emrakul outside of 12post in a while.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
i think it's funny that the reason why AV, Jace, and Mystic were banned is because they would be see in or splashed for in a majority of decks. The same is true for goyf. There is no reason not to run him. to the argument that he dies to removal, i could toss in like 20 spot removal effects in a deck and beat goyf decks and then lose to every other deck in existence. the problem with goyf is he is bigger than most of the other creatures around his cmc, the exception being knight. many cards on the current banned list should be, but if they are so liberal with their bannings, then they should ban goyf. There were as many lightning bolt as ponders in the decks that got 18 or more points... but you don't see aggro getting hamstrung.
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P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
i think it's funny that the reason why AV, Jace, and Mystic were banned is because they would be see in or splashed for in a majority of decks. The same is true for goyf. There is no reason not to run him. to the argument that he dies to removal, i could toss in like 20 spot removal effects in a deck and beat goyf decks and then lose to every other deck in existence. the problem with goyf is he is bigger than most of the other creatures around his cmc, the exception being knight. many cards on the current banned list should be, but if they are so liberal with their bannings, then they should ban goyf. There were as many lightning bolt as ponders in the decks that got 18 or more points... but you don't see aggro getting hamstrung.
Well that's because R&D want this to become more like other card games where the whole thing is just a creature battle augmented a little bit by spells. Honestly I don't care whether or not goyf gets unbanned I just need a card or two off the ban list so I can build a competitive control deck.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I think it's fine to ban a card because it is too expensive for most people to afford. Magic the gathering is a game meant to be played for fun, and if there is one card that prevents a large number of people from being able to play it competitively and having fun, there is a reasonable argument for banning that card. Personally, I think Tarmogoyf should be banned because it is very overpowered and is format warping in the sense that formats and decks alter themselves around him. The arguments against this are nothing new:
1. Goyf is just a vanilla creature.
The same argument could be made if he got +2 for each card type instead of +1, yet he would clearly be insanely broken if he was that powerful. The fact that he is a vanilla creature doesn't mean he is not broken.
2. He dies to removal.
Almost every broken card can be trumped by the answers to that card. That does not mean it is not broken. Mental Misstep can be countered with your own Misstep. Your own Jace can kill another Jace, and bolt will turn Stoneforge Mystic into dust.
At the end of the day Goyf is just another broken card that should get banned. He is more powerful and than Mystic and yet she gets banned but he doesn't-that's absurd.
I think it's fine to ban a card because it is too expensive for most people to afford. Magic the gathering is a game meant to be played for fun, and if there is one card that prevents a large number of people from being able to play it competitively and having fun, there is a reasonable argument for banning that card. Personally, I think Tarmogoyf should be banned because it is very overpowered and is format warping in the sense that formats and decks alter themselves around him. The arguments against this are nothing new:
1. Goyf is just a vanilla creature.
The same argument could be made if he got +2 for each card type instead of +1, yet he would clearly be insanely broken if he was that powerful. The fact that he is a vanilla creature doesn't mean he is not broken.
2. He dies to removal.
Almost every broken card can be trumped by the answers to that card. That does not mean it is not broken. Mental Misstep can be countered with your own Misstep. Your own Jace can kill another Jace, and bolt will turn Stoneforge Mystic into dust.
At the end of the day Goyf is just another broken card that should get banned. He is more powerful and than Mystic and yet she gets banned but he doesn't-that's absurd.
Yep Gofy can tutor up equipment and cheat it out early just like SFM.
Goyf isnt the king of 2 drops anymore, they banned it SFM.
You could make and argument for Bob too with his card advantage and all, but Bob is fine sitting behind SFM.
There is no need to ban Goyf and you dont have to run Goyf if you are running green. Too many people follow instead of lead.
Yep Gofy can tutor up equipment and cheat it out early just like SFM.
They don't have to do the same thing in order for Goyf to be just as broken (probably more broken) than Mystic. When Goyf was printed he changed the face of legacy. The only reason Mystic was playable in legacy is that MM made control decks viable. Goyf is the stronger card, period.
Goyf isnt the king of 2 drops anymore, they banned it SFM.
You could make and argument for Bob too with his card advantage and all, but Bob is fine sitting behind SFM.
There is no need to ban Goyf and you dont have to run Goyf if you are running green. Too many people follow instead of lead.[/QUOTE]
You basically have to run him if you want to have the best deck possible. He's just that good, especially since combo has been weakened.
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:symu::symr::symg: ANIMAR :symu::symr::symg:
card pool bigger dont mean strong.
if i banned 100 more card in modern. the card pool still bigger than ext and thats all.
many old ext combo still available until out set like dark depths
modern format not only different from legacy and also ext.it want to keep a stable and slow to win game format
i think the 3rd ban some more cards would happen rather than unban some cards
When Legacy started up it took a while to balance the format and bannings were needed. Look atthe ban list in Legacy. Figure Moderns ban list will be close to the same size before it will be truely balanced and diverse. Then and only then can they start unbanning cards.
Its going to take time, and there are going to be more bans.
I sure hope they don't ban venny clique. Its the only win condition control decks have left.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I still think that if they want the format to be healthy, they need a blue card similar to Force of Will in Modern. If not Mental Misstep, then something like it (ah, they banned it in Legacy, nevermind - guess the card's not going to be unbanned for a long time).
I'm not sure a free counterspell is the answer. Something like the card counterspell would be ok. Really what U needs is a way to play thirst for knowledge without having to run a bunch of crappy artifacts, and a way to cast mana leak on turn 1.
As for the cards that should be banned right now, I can't think of anything that is in need of being banned immediately.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
i am gald to see the 3 rd banned list towards the best of 3 decks in modern.
just ban hot cards is a way now
I think banning Goyf actually makes more sense than GSZ if you go by the reason they gave.
The fact that almost every deck running green benefits from running Goyf (other than Elves) makes green lack diversity. Any deck that runs green that isn't tribal is going to start off with 4x Goyf and he is the only reason some decks even splash green. I will agree that GSZ provides consistency and reliability but it also encourages good deckbuilding and, I think, encourages diversity. What Modern green deck are you going to be playing that isn't going to be running Goyf?
If Mental Misstep ever gets unbanned then there would be no reason to have GSZ remain banned.
What? I guess so you can't get dryad arbor since the x actually factors in the cmc of x spells when they're on the stack. That's the only sense I can make from your statement.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
For those of you who want to see him banned, could you elaborate on why?
In Modern, Goyf is like Lightning Bolt. If you are playing red, you play Lighting Bolt. If you are playing green, you play Tarmogoyf.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Packing answers to Goyf is a solution to "losing to goyf decks," not "bored of goyf decks." The two may frequently correlate, but they're not quite the same thing.
Except decks don't splash red just for lightning bolt. Not saying that goyf needs to be banned, but it is by far the best creature in this format. Actually the best creature in any format its been legal in.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Dark Confidant and Stoneforge Mystic would like to have a serious word with you.
Also: Just for posterity's sake, so would Goblin Welder and Slash Panther.
Emmy? Really? I have been beaten by Emmy once, and my deck was not in good shape at the time.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I agree. I haven't seen emrakul outside of 12post in a while.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Well that's because R&D want this to become more like other card games where the whole thing is just a creature battle augmented a little bit by spells. Honestly I don't care whether or not goyf gets unbanned I just need a card or two off the ban list so I can build a competitive control deck.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
1. Goyf is just a vanilla creature.
The same argument could be made if he got +2 for each card type instead of +1, yet he would clearly be insanely broken if he was that powerful. The fact that he is a vanilla creature doesn't mean he is not broken.
2. He dies to removal.
Almost every broken card can be trumped by the answers to that card. That does not mean it is not broken. Mental Misstep can be countered with your own Misstep. Your own Jace can kill another Jace, and bolt will turn Stoneforge Mystic into dust.
At the end of the day Goyf is just another broken card that should get banned. He is more powerful and than Mystic and yet she gets banned but he doesn't-that's absurd.
Yep Gofy can tutor up equipment and cheat it out early just like SFM.
Goyf isnt the king of 2 drops anymore, they banned it SFM.
You could make and argument for Bob too with his card advantage and all, but Bob is fine sitting behind SFM.
There is no need to ban Goyf and you dont have to run Goyf if you are running green. Too many people follow instead of lead.
Goyf isnt the king of 2 drops anymore, they banned it SFM.
You could make and argument for Bob too with his card advantage and all, but Bob is fine sitting behind SFM.
There is no need to ban Goyf and you dont have to run Goyf if you are running green. Too many people follow instead of lead.[/QUOTE]
You basically have to run him if you want to have the best deck possible. He's just that good, especially since combo has been weakened.