What do we have to gain from adding red? Volcanic Fallout is a pretty good card. There's also Combust. Snapcaster Mage is very good with Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix. Plus, there could be some sort of massive instant burn spell we could use as a back-up finisher.
What do we have to gain from adding red? Volcanic Fallout is a pretty good card. There's also Combust. Snapcaster Mage is very good with Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix. Plus, there could be some sort of massive instant burn spell we could use as a back-up finisher.
Comet Storm is what you're thinking of, though I'd rather just run a singleton Banefire and go digging for it.
I think Fracturing Gust is probably better than Hurkyl's Recall. Gust is pretty much GG whereas Recall only sets them back a turn, maybe two.
Recall also costs 2 mana, so you can stall until turn 6, then tutor and Recall in the same turn and completely blindside them. WWW is also pretty tough for this deck to make by turn 6.
I think the WWW is much more relevant that the T6 argument, since with Gust you can just EOT Teachings and T5 Gust, completely ending them. If you have the mana for it, which you should, if you're running that card.
My Teachings deck is more UB(w) than anything else, so I run Hurkyl's Recall, but I think if I had steady access to WWW, I'd rather do that. Certainly worth testing - I haven't.
I'm hoping that you guys see the failed logic in the Gust versus Recall debate.
Recall is 2 mana and can be Snapcastered back, Gust cannot. If you can get to magical christmas land then yes this is a debate. With a restrictive mana cost you won't be able to hit WWW with regularity. The comment about fetching it with Teachings is also absurd. With your turn 3 or 4 mana you plan on tapping out EOT. I have never played versus Affinity where their turn 3-4 plays are something that doesn't require an immediate answer.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I run Recall, but no one can deny that the effect is so much stronger with Fracturing Gust that it's worth some thought. Returning a few lands, some creatures, and a handful of zero and one drops isn't nearly as strong as blowing them all up and gaining 10-16 life or something. So yes, I do think it's worth considering EOT tapping out and 5th turn ravaging them. I played against Red Affinity yesterday and did this exact thing with Consume the Meek, and it worked fine. If you Mana Leak a Ravager (Smother, Doom Blade or Path it for that matter) or Cranial Plating, I can see myself lasting until 5th turn easy.
Yes, you lose to the God draw, but you lose to that every time. Most of the time you'll have to Teachings up Recall anyway. How often are you finding a one of?
I'm not playing the card now, but I can assure you next time I go buying cards on MODO this is going to be one I test.
It's not really all that difficult to cast. I have no problem with White Sun's Zenith and Cryptic Command in the same deck, and can cast either with consistency. If you're preparing for Gust, go for your white shocks rather than black. Find Hallowed Fountain rather than Watery Grave. You probably should be running a few more Mystic Gates than others, as well.
There is no 'failed logic' here. Just difference in opinion and preference.
TBQH this debate is dumb. Damnation/consume the meek is generally going to be just as good as fracturing gust now that affinity no longer has 20 artifact lands.
I don't have any slots dedicated to specific affinity hate, and I run a few disenchants in my sideboard that do come in for that matchup, but they are just a general thing that I always have in my board.
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Eh, I'd agree with the debate being somewhat dumb, though I'd disagree that Damnation and Consume the Meek are as good as Gust, for quite a few reasons.
CTM doesn't kill Frogmite (I've lost games for this very reason), Springleaf Drum, Cranial Plating, and so on. It also kills your own guys. Damnation is the same, except it's not Teachings-able, but does kill Frogmite.
Gust doesn't kill your own stuff, and kills almost everything of theirs. Also, the life-gain is going to exceptionally important against the red versions that have greater reach via Shrapnel Blast and Galvanic Blasts. The only problem with Gust is that it requires WWW.
For everyone's viewing pleasure, is my list. Very similar to some others floating around here - no real surprises. Updated my mana base a bit - feels much nicer now:
The sideboard is just me testing specific cards which I think deserve consideration - it's not finalized for me yet.
A couple of thoughts/questions for the group:
1. In my limited testing, Pulse of the Fields has been absurdly good.
2. I am thinking that I'd like a bit more card draw in the list, perhaps Think Twice or Forbidden Alchemy - probably 2-3, bringing out Damnation, GftT, or the 4th Snapcaster. Not really sure though. Anyone play with these?
3. Has anyone tried Rune Snag instead of Mana Leak. It's seems like it might be worth a shot if it helps me get some mileage late game out of something that's normally just completely dead.
4. I was stupid to be running any number of Spell Snares over the 4th Cryptic. That card is big game. I knew that, but the magnitude of how stupid good it is is slowly sinking in even more.
I think people misconstrue the use of Fracturing gust vs. something like Hurky'ls recall.
You don't run fracturing gust for the purpose of stabilizing against a deck like Affinity. You stabilize vs. affinity by having early removal that can kill the relevant creatures (signal pest, ravager, master of etherium, or anything equipped with cranial plating)
You play fracturing gust as a singleton against affinity because it almost serves more of a "finisher" role since it'll typically wipe out their entire board, kill 1-2 manlands, and sweep out any platings lying around, while taking you out of burn range from any style of red "blast".
Hurkyl's recall is simply a card you use to buy yourself an extra 1-3 turns. Gust is a card you tutor up to seal the game.
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Eh, I'd agree with the debate being somewhat dumb, though I'd disagree that Damnation and Consume the Meek are as good as Gust, for quite a few reasons.
CTM doesn't kill Frogmite (I've lost games for this very reason), Springleaf Drum, Cranial Plating, and so on. It also kills your own guys. Damnation is the same, except it's not Teachings-able, but does kill Frogmite.
Gust doesn't kill your own stuff, and kills almost everything of theirs. Also, the life-gain is going to exceptionally important against the red versions that have greater reach via Shrapnel Blast and Galvanic Blasts. The only problem with Gust is that it requires WWW.
Most of the affinity list don't run frogmite. It is true that they will have a few artifacts left over, but if you 3-4 for 1 them with a mass removal spell they won't come back. I mean its not like the cranial plating can swing itself, and its also only going to hit for 3-4 extra because without artifact lands affinity's artifact count mostly comes from creatures which would have all died. Also what creatures? If you have a snapcaster out why haven't you blocked with it...?
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I was referring to if you had to flash it back. Anyway, I think we can let this one rest. I'm going to test the card, and I expect it to be a gigantic beating when it resolves. Whether or not it's easy to resolve, or better than Recall is up for debate. Unfortunately, it will most like be a while before I play against affinity again, so it's most likely moot.
I do know I've been incredibly happy with Extirpate as well. I just faced a WotC employee of some kind playing one of the most cruel Loam lists I've seen in a while and Extirpate on Loam, Snapcaster --> Extirpate on PK-Fire was hard to come back from.
I was referring to if you had to flash it back. Anyway, I think we can let this one rest. I'm going to test the card, and I expect it to be a gigantic beating when it resolves. Whether or not it's easy to resolve, or better than Recall is up for debate. Unfortunately, it will most like be a while before I play against affinity again, so it's most likely moot.
I do know I've been incredibly happy with Extirpate as well. I just faced a WotC employee of some kind playing one of the most cruel Loam lists I've seen in a while and Extirpate on Loam, Snapcaster --> Extirpate on PK-Fire was hard to come back from.
Well the comparison is one gives you control after you should already be in control and the other one is almost a timewalk and it allows you an extra turn to catch up with the nut draw. If affinity still had artifact lands it would be completely different though.
As for extirpate/surgical extraction being good against graveyard decks that is the point lol. I do agree that PK-Fire is impossible to beat when only using snapcasters and creeping tar pits. Heck elspeth and other walkers are terrible against it too.
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Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Has anyone considered or tested magister sphinx as a possible win con?
With Teferi it is flashed in to put them to ten at EOT then you swing for 5 with the insurance that they can't play spells. Plus if its an open board teferi and one Creeping Tar Pit added to this wins the game on the spot.
I know its the mana cost is expenisve but it sounded like a possibility worth looking into and I haven't built the deck yet nor had anyone to test this idea either.
Has anyone considered or tested magister sphinx as a possible win con?
With Teferi it is flashed in to put them to ten at EOT then you swing for 5 with the insurance that they can't play spells. Plus if its an open board teferi and one Creeping Tar Pit added to this wins the game on the spot.
I know its the mana cost is expenisve but it sounded like a possibility worth looking into and I haven't built the deck yet nor had anyone to test this idea either.
Tell me what you think everybody.
If you have to choose a fatty for a finisher, the way I see it is this: How many ways do the common decks have to answer finisher X? Magister Sphinx seems a little lack luster when you could be running Elesh Norn, Inkwell Leviathan, Sundering Titan, or even just Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
If you have to choose a fatty for a finisher, the way I see it is this: How many ways do the common decks have to answer finisher X? Magister Sphinx seems a little lack luster when you could be running Elesh Norn, Inkwell Leviathan, Sundering Titan, or even just Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
the only one that you mentioned that is remotely good is sphinx lol. 6 Mana is pretty much the apex of what you will likely be able to afford in a timely manner. Honestly I just run snapcaster mage and creeping tar pits. geist of saint traft from your sideboard is also pretty good. Relying on terferi in modern is really bad and if you run something expensive you are forced to rely on teferi.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I find Teferi to be fine, even good. To be honest, if you're sitting where you need to be sitting to win with a Teachings deck - your finisher is unlikely to matter, though I do think there's not going to be much better Grave Titan to flash in. Even if they manage to handle Teferi, it's unlikely that they're coming back from a 6/6 and 4 2/2's after everything already bashed in one time.
I've been testing a list with 2 tar pits, 3 snapcasters, 2 teferi, 1 v-clique and a baneslayer (MVP), and I've been happy with it. There are some games just grinding them out with snapcasters and tar pits is the way to go, and against more aggressive decks, being able to eat guys with teferi, and tutor up baneslayer has been huge.
I've been testing a list with 2 tar pits, 3 snapcasters, 2 teferi, 1 v-clique and a baneslayer (MVP), and I've been happy with it. There are some games just grinding them out with snapcasters and tar pits is the way to go, and against more aggressive decks, being able to eat guys with teferi, and tutor up baneslayer has been huge.
every time I run something like this I tend to always start with a teferi, a fatty, a consume the meek, and no lands. Maybe for some reason I defy statistical probability, but it is the worst feeling to lose to your own deck.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
every time I run something like this I tend to always start with a teferi, a fatty, a consume the meek, and no lands. Maybe for some reason I defy statistical probability, but it is the worst feeling to lose to your own deck.
Yeah slips, this seems like you getting the raw end of the deal a bunch. I will say that a version closer to Iyanuga's mulligans more smoothly, and ultimately, is just more smooth in general. It does make me wonder, though, if we actually want to use something like Squadron Hawk.
Also, how do you actually feel about cutting Mana Leak or Rune Snag? I feel like on the draw, I could really care less about not having it, but on the play (especially in my meta where there are some slower decks), I miss it.
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What do we have to gain from adding red? Volcanic Fallout is a pretty good card. There's also Combust. Snapcaster Mage is very good with Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix. Plus, there could be some sort of massive instant burn spell we could use as a back-up finisher.
Comet Storm is what you're thinking of, though I'd rather just run a singleton Banefire and go digging for it.
This is my updated list.
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 River of Tears
4 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Island
2 Swamp
1 Plains
Instants (24):
4 Esper Charm
4 Path to Exile
3 Mystical Teachings
3 Remand
2 Dissipate
1 Consume the Meek
1 Cryptic Command
1 Extirpate
1 Into the Roil
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Smother
1 Trickbind
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Damnation
3 Oust
2 Hibernation
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Thoughtseize
1 Celestial Purge
1 Damnation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Sudden Death
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Recall also costs 2 mana, so you can stall until turn 6, then tutor and Recall in the same turn and completely blindside them. WWW is also pretty tough for this deck to make by turn 6.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
My Teachings deck is more UB(w) than anything else, so I run Hurkyl's Recall, but I think if I had steady access to WWW, I'd rather do that. Certainly worth testing - I haven't.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Recall is 2 mana and can be Snapcastered back, Gust cannot. If you can get to magical christmas land then yes this is a debate. With a restrictive mana cost you won't be able to hit WWW with regularity. The comment about fetching it with Teachings is also absurd. With your turn 3 or 4 mana you plan on tapping out EOT. I have never played versus Affinity where their turn 3-4 plays are something that doesn't require an immediate answer.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Yes, you lose to the God draw, but you lose to that every time. Most of the time you'll have to Teachings up Recall anyway. How often are you finding a one of?
I'm not playing the card now, but I can assure you next time I go buying cards on MODO this is going to be one I test.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
It's not really all that difficult to cast. I have no problem with White Sun's Zenith and Cryptic Command in the same deck, and can cast either with consistency. If you're preparing for Gust, go for your white shocks rather than black. Find Hallowed Fountain rather than Watery Grave. You probably should be running a few more Mystic Gates than others, as well.
There is no 'failed logic' here. Just difference in opinion and preference.
I don't have any slots dedicated to specific affinity hate, and I run a few disenchants in my sideboard that do come in for that matchup, but they are just a general thing that I always have in my board.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
CTM doesn't kill Frogmite (I've lost games for this very reason), Springleaf Drum, Cranial Plating, and so on. It also kills your own guys. Damnation is the same, except it's not Teachings-able, but does kill Frogmite.
Gust doesn't kill your own stuff, and kills almost everything of theirs. Also, the life-gain is going to exceptionally important against the red versions that have greater reach via Shrapnel Blast and Galvanic Blasts. The only problem with Gust is that it requires WWW.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mystic Gate
1 Fetid Heath
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Grave Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Spells (26)
4 Cryptic Command
4 Mana Leak
4 Esper Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Mystical Teachings
2 Path to Exile
1 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
1 Smother
1 Consume the Meek
1 Damnation
3 Deathmark
2 Sudden Death
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Extirpate
1 Hibernation
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Fracturing Gust
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
The sideboard is just me testing specific cards which I think deserve consideration - it's not finalized for me yet.
A couple of thoughts/questions for the group:
1. In my limited testing, Pulse of the Fields has been absurdly good.
2. I am thinking that I'd like a bit more card draw in the list, perhaps Think Twice or Forbidden Alchemy - probably 2-3, bringing out Damnation, GftT, or the 4th Snapcaster. Not really sure though. Anyone play with these?
3. Has anyone tried Rune Snag instead of Mana Leak. It's seems like it might be worth a shot if it helps me get some mileage late game out of something that's normally just completely dead.
4. I was stupid to be running any number of Spell Snares over the 4th Cryptic. That card is big game. I knew that, but the magnitude of how stupid good it is is slowly sinking in even more.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
You don't run fracturing gust for the purpose of stabilizing against a deck like Affinity. You stabilize vs. affinity by having early removal that can kill the relevant creatures (signal pest, ravager, master of etherium, or anything equipped with cranial plating)
You play fracturing gust as a singleton against affinity because it almost serves more of a "finisher" role since it'll typically wipe out their entire board, kill 1-2 manlands, and sweep out any platings lying around, while taking you out of burn range from any style of red "blast".
Hurkyl's recall is simply a card you use to buy yourself an extra 1-3 turns. Gust is a card you tutor up to seal the game.
Most of the affinity list don't run frogmite. It is true that they will have a few artifacts left over, but if you 3-4 for 1 them with a mass removal spell they won't come back. I mean its not like the cranial plating can swing itself, and its also only going to hit for 3-4 extra because without artifact lands affinity's artifact count mostly comes from creatures which would have all died. Also what creatures? If you have a snapcaster out why haven't you blocked with it...?
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I do know I've been incredibly happy with Extirpate as well. I just faced a WotC employee of some kind playing one of the most cruel Loam lists I've seen in a while and Extirpate on Loam, Snapcaster --> Extirpate on PK-Fire was hard to come back from.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
Well the comparison is one gives you control after you should already be in control and the other one is almost a timewalk and it allows you an extra turn to catch up with the nut draw. If affinity still had artifact lands it would be completely different though.
As for extirpate/surgical extraction being good against graveyard decks that is the point lol. I do agree that PK-Fire is impossible to beat when only using snapcasters and creeping tar pits. Heck elspeth and other walkers are terrible against it too.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
PFire really gets on my nerves.
With Teferi it is flashed in to put them to ten at EOT then you swing for 5 with the insurance that they can't play spells. Plus if its an open board teferi and one Creeping Tar Pit added to this wins the game on the spot.
I know its the mana cost is expenisve but it sounded like a possibility worth looking into and I haven't built the deck yet nor had anyone to test this idea either.
Tell me what you think everybody.
If you have to choose a fatty for a finisher, the way I see it is this: How many ways do the common decks have to answer finisher X? Magister Sphinx seems a little lack luster when you could be running Elesh Norn, Inkwell Leviathan, Sundering Titan, or even just Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
the only one that you mentioned that is remotely good is sphinx lol. 6 Mana is pretty much the apex of what you will likely be able to afford in a timely manner. Honestly I just run snapcaster mage and creeping tar pits. geist of saint traft from your sideboard is also pretty good. Relying on terferi in modern is really bad and if you run something expensive you are forced to rely on teferi.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
every time I run something like this I tend to always start with a teferi, a fatty, a consume the meek, and no lands. Maybe for some reason I defy statistical probability, but it is the worst feeling to lose to your own deck.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Yeah slips, this seems like you getting the raw end of the deal a bunch. I will say that a version closer to Iyanuga's mulligans more smoothly, and ultimately, is just more smooth in general. It does make me wonder, though, if we actually want to use something like Squadron Hawk.
Also, how do you actually feel about cutting Mana Leak or Rune Snag? I feel like on the draw, I could really care less about not having it, but on the play (especially in my meta where there are some slower decks), I miss it.