Yeah slips, this seems like you getting the raw end of the deal a bunch. I will say that a version closer to Iyanuga's mulligans more smoothly, and ultimately, is just more smooth in general. It does make me wonder, though, if we actually want to use something like Squadron Hawk.
Also, how do you actually feel about cutting Mana Leak or Rune Snag? I feel like on the draw, I could really care less about not having it, but on the play (especially in my meta where there are some slower decks), I miss it.
squad hawk is a terrible idea. We don't run equipment and we don't need a shuffle effect with a few 1/1 chump blockers attached.
As for the soft counters: if your running less than 8 counterspells I wouldn't run these,unless your running 6-8 counterspells then your fine with them.
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squad hawk is a terrible idea. We don't run equipment and we don't need a shuffle effect with a few 1/1 chump blockers attached.
As for the soft counters: if your running less than 8 counterspells I wouldn't run these,unless your running 6-8 counterspells then your fine with them.
I'm not really going to argue it that much, since hawk isn't clearly as powerful without Jace to really push him over the top, but Caw-go was a deck, with or without equipment, and I do think that it could merit some consideration. It does stick to the make card advantage, peck (pun intended) life totals away plan that we're working with.
While geist + elspeth is probably just better in every single matchup that squadron hawk would be decent in, it's still an idea that I don't really think is "terrible." Not to mention, in the mirror, an unanswered 1/1, 2/1, 3/2, or anything really, can go the distance. But I said, I don't really want to argue about it and you're probably right slip. It was more a thought then anything that I hadn't tested yet.
In other news, has anyone tested against the Worlds UB Teachings deck with Nephalia Drownyard? I find it nearly impossible to beat with Iyanaga's version of the deck unless you get the godly strip their entire hands sorts of draws.
I'm not really going to argue it that much, since hawk isn't clearly as powerful without Jace to really push him over the top, but Caw-go was a deck, with or without equipment, and I do think that it could merit some consideration. It does stick to the make card advantage, peck (pun intended) life totals away plan that we're working with.
While geist + elspeth is probably just better in every single matchup that squadron hawk would be decent in, it's still an idea that I don't really think is "terrible." Not to mention, in the mirror, an unanswered 1/1, 2/1, 3/2, or anything really, can go the distance. But I said, I don't really want to argue about it and you're probably right slip. It was more a thought then anything that I hadn't tested yet.
In other news, has anyone tested against the Worlds UB Teachings deck with Nephalia Drownyard? I find it nearly impossible to beat with Iyanaga's version of the deck unless you get the godly strip their entire hands sorts of draws.
well hawk isn't really going to be card advantage in modern because it will mostly just chump block.
The UB teachings deck is pretty tough, but winnable if you run heavy discard. Essentially your the aggro in that matchup because they have inevitability on you. So side out any worthless cards(wrath effects, smothers) and sideboard in any threats/discard you have in your sideboard.
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I just want to say that Rune Snag is just terrible. I always ran Mana Leaks, but decided to switch to Rune Snag, and almost every time I wished it was a Mana Leak. The amount of times I had to let an opponent's spell resolve because they had 2 mana up was extremely more relevant than the number of times making them pay more later on came up. Not to mention siding out a few Rune Snags is *far* more awkward than siding out a few Mana Leaks. Maybe if we ever got some decent card draw back, it would be a different story, because seeing lots of Rune Snags would be easier, but as it is, I'm going with Mana Leak hands down.
I just want to say that Rune Snag is just terrible. I always ran Mana Leaks, but decided to switch to Rune Snag, and almost every time I wished it was a Mana Leak. The amount of times I had to let an opponent's spell resolve because they had 2 mana up was extremely more relevant than the number of times making them pay more later on came up. Not to mention siding out a few Rune Snags is *far* more awkward than siding out a few Mana Leaks. Maybe if we ever got some decent card draw back, it would be a different story, because seeing lots of Rune Snags would be easier, but as it is, I'm going with Mana Leak hands down.
I honestly don't run either, removal and discard is essentially just better. I do run a few random hard counters to get an extra bit out of snappy, but that is the most IMO. Counterspells are just so unreliable in such a fast format without their namesake.
Also, how am I the only one running Slay in their sideboard? The card's nuts
Not a big fan. 3 mana is far too inefficent when trying to deal with zoo. Sure it is good when your already ahead or even, but it won't ever catch you up. In my testing several games you will essentially start a turn or 2 behind. If I was going to drop in any specific removal it would be deathmark.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I honestly don't run either, removal and discard is essentially just better. I do run a few random hard counters to get an extra bit out of snappy, but that is the most IMO. Counterspells are just so unreliable in such a fast format without their namesake.
Not a big fan. 3 mana is far too inefficent when trying to deal with zoo. Sure it is good when your already ahead or even, but it won't ever catch you up. In my testing several games you will essentially start a turn or 2 behind. If I was going to drop in any specific removal it would be deathmark.
I'm not just boarding in Slay for Zoo. I started with 4 Deathmark, but I've since switched to 2 Deathmark, 2 Slay. It's a great teachings target, and a great way to pull ahead once you survive the initial onslaught
Very glad that teachings has finally made it to established forums. It deserves it. I'm testing with a couple spell snare, some mana leaks, and engineered explosives. It's been alright but I'm probably going to end up picking up a version closer to the heavy discard version that got 15 points at worlds. I've been playing teachings for a quite a while now and I'm glad that we're finally getting there (or definitely close).
EDIT:
My small local meta where I sometimes play has an abundance of planeswalkers (ajani V, Lily, Jace B, and a whole lot of deathcloud with Garruk 1.0) if they can topdeck one past thoughtseize or if I only have IoK (which does get Lily/jace) I really can't beat a resolved one if I don't have a tarpit or mage. Are there any good answers besides bounce then leak/discard?
Very glad that teachings has finally made it to established forums. It deserves it. I'm testing with a couple spell snare, some mana leaks, and engineered explosives. It's been alright but I'm probably going to end up picking up a version closer to the heavy discard version that got 15 points at worlds. I've been playing teachings for a quite a while now and I'm glad that we're finally getting there (or definitely close).
EDIT:
My small local meta where I sometimes play has an abundance of planeswalkers (ajani V, Lily, Jace B, and a whole lot of deathcloud with Garruk 1.0) if they can topdeck one past thoughtseize or if I only have IoK (which does get Lily/jace) I really can't beat a resolved one if I don't have a tarpit or mage. Are there any good answers besides bounce then leak/discard?
Play counterspells. Stop screwing around with discard spells and play the more solid type of answer.
He asked what he could do against a RESOLVED planeswalker. "Play counterspells" is obviously the wrong answer to that question.
Kind of like saying what do i do against a resolved ad nauseum. you dont. you supposed to deal with the thread before it lands play.
worst case, if the planeswalker every goes into play, you can try going eot snap activate manland finish it off or something. but thats like plan C...
planeswalker are usually very very slow for the format so i doupt anyone would play them except maybe a rogue deck. not that it matter anyways you're a teaching decks you basically rape everything that doesnt attack you by turn 2.
Very glad that teachings has finally made it to established forums. It deserves it. I'm testing with a couple spell snare, some mana leaks, and engineered explosives. It's been alright but I'm probably going to end up picking up a version closer to the heavy discard version that got 15 points at worlds. I've been playing teachings for a quite a while now and I'm glad that we're finally getting there (or definitely close).
EDIT:
My small local meta where I sometimes play has an abundance of planeswalkers (ajani V, Lily, Jace B, and a whole lot of deathcloud with Garruk 1.0) if they can topdeck one past thoughtseize or if I only have IoK (which does get Lily/jace) I really can't beat a resolved one if I don't have a tarpit or mage. Are there any good answers besides bounce then leak/discard?
The point is that, when you play Duress effects, you have to accept that your opponent has a strong chance to topdeck into business. That's the nature of discard effects. Sure, a planeswalker will slip through every now and again and that's another problem to solve--but it's a problem you'll have to deal with way less often if your deck has 10 counterspells that stop planeswalkers from ever hitting the table. Yes, I was making a bold point about the subject, but there was a logical reason for my words. Hal was talking about going even further in the direction of discard, but also having trouble with topdecked planeswalkers. This is only going to get worse in an even more discard-heavy build. EDIT: also, Engineeered Explosives is pretty bad against planeswalkers (even against Beleren and Liliana, you're paying 2 more mana than they are to solve the problem, you have to invest 3 at sorcery speed, and your opponent probably will produce card advantage off the walker before you kill it).
As for actually removing planeswalkers when they resolve: well, there are 2 basic ways to do it pre-board. The first way is to roll a flash creature or two and/or use a Tar Pit to kill it with the attack step. The second is to bounce it, whether with Cryptic Command or Repeal or Echoing Truth or whatever.
Post-board, in a metagame where planeswalkers really start showing up and they somehow keep sticking on you, consider Pithing Needle and Vampire Hexmage. But, honestly, at that point...start reevaluating your life. How are 3-5 mana sorcery-speed threats resolving against you on such a regular basis?
@Centucky Fried Faerie: Of course, you could always play bounce spells... I mean, you've got Boomerang, Into the Roil, Cryptic Command and quite a few other playable choices.
@i_never_smile: Are we even playing the same format? Cryptic Command, Mindbreak Trap, Pact of Negation, and Delay are the only real "counterspells" that I'd even run. Remand works best with discard, so I'm not really considering it a counterspell- it's more like Boomerang, really. Trap is a sideboard card to hate out Storm, Cryptic is really a tap and bounce spell, Delay is basically a hard counter, and Pact is only good with Snapcaster and Teachings. Discard is a hell of a lot stronger in the format, especially one as devoted to card quality as Modern is.
Yeah, the countermagic in this format is terrible. And I'm typing this from my laptop while riding on a Pegasus into Asgard.
What happened to you guys? Why is everyone so scared to play counterspells and draw spells? Countermagic is good against every single deck in the format. Teferi is still the nuts. There are a plethora of great finishers for basically any metagame. There are solutions to combo decks, control decks, aggro decks, and everything in between. All it takes is some deck tuning and tight play. But no, you guys want to be lazy and cross your fingers with Thougtseize and IoK all day, then get mad when your opponent topdecks out of your soft disruption.
So this is why I haven't been reading the Esper Teachings corner of the forum for a while. Everyone has lost the balls to play countermagic in what was once the premier permission archetype.
started out with around 6 or 7 discard spells....have gone down to zero and never looked back. Discard is TERRIBLE against zoo, the best deck in the format. At the moment that is what we as control have to prepare for. I used to have discard in the side for combo but realized I have better ways to deal with it.
I started trying out the discard build because it seemed pretty good and did very well at worlds. I assumed that it should be not be looked over because it did so well and also because my latest results with a marginal of counters have been subpar. I might be going back to the original build that I've been using as a baseline for the deck. I'm definitely going to 2 command, 3 mana leak, 1 remand, 3 spell snare. (I was at 1 command, 2 mana leak, 2 spell snare... that was in the discard build). Also, EE is definely not for the three mana walkers. That's just bad. It seemed good against zoo with all of their one drops and it was pretty good in old extended too if I remember correctly from playing this deck.
I'm still using the old teferi+fattie engine although I've dropped to 1 of each with 3 snapcaster and 2 tarpit.
I'm still feeling around with the deck and trying to add new ideas that I have.
In solution to the Planeswalker problem I've decided to add in a purge and a needle into the sb maybe with some spell pierce, flashfreeze, and negate action. It seems to work well.
On another note I've dropped down to 3 IoK. It's just very good vs. control, combo, and okay vs. aggro. I don't get so many late game dead draws and I've won a most of the matches that I've played.
I'm still on the fence with EE, heres my current list. LMK what you all think.
I started trying out the discard build because it seemed pretty good and did very well at worlds. I assumed that it should be not be looked over because it did so well and also because my latest results with a marginal of counters have been subpar. I might be going back to the original build that I've been using as a baseline for the deck. I'm definitely going to 2 command, 3 mana leak, 1 remand, 3 spell snare. (I was at 1 command, 2 mana leak, 2 spell snare... that was in the discard build). Also, EE is definely not for the three mana walkers. That's just bad. It seemed good against zoo with all of their one drops and it was pretty good in old extended too if I remember correctly from playing this deck.
I'm still using the old teferi+fattie engine although I've dropped to 1 of each with 3 snapcaster and 2 tarpit.
I'm still feeling around with the deck and trying to add new ideas that I have.
In solution to the Planeswalker problem I've decided to add in a purge and a needle into the sb maybe with some spell pierce, flashfreeze, and negate action. It seems to work well.
On another note I've dropped down to 3 IoK. It's just very good vs. control, combo, and okay vs. aggro. I don't get so many late game dead draws and I've won a most of the matches that I've played.
I'm still on the fence with EE, heres my current list. LMK what you all think.
Spell snare is only good when you run 8 or more counterspells.(not counting itself) tribute to hunger is pretty bad because it cost 3 mana and you don't even get to pick the creature. 1 Engineered Explosives is really not worth it in this deck and probably should be something else.
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Spell snare is only good when you run 8 or more counterspells.(not counting itself) tribute to hunger is pretty bad because it cost 3 mana and you don't even get to pick the creature. 1 Engineered Explosives is really not worth it in this deck and probably should be something else.
Thoughts on replacements after seeing the list?
I'm thinking maybe -1 spell snare, -1 EE, -1 tribute to hunger, +1 smother, +1 mana leak, +1 Damnation.
Also, I'm looking for a kind a spell to gain me some life through the game (like tribute) however, I don't like most of the options seeing as they're CA disadvantage if you have them when you're not at a low life or just the wrong matchup so:
Looking for a card with some practical uses in most games that also gains life.
Also I don't think that deprive should be on that list, it seems less good than the others.
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Urborg, Tomb of Yagomoth
and
Tendrills of corruption?
4 mana for a removal spell is a lot, but teachable, and gains you life. Mana base in general may need work to compensate for it. Not sure if its worth the life gain though
Urborg, Tomb of Yagomoth
and
Tendrills of corruption?
4 mana for a removal spell is a lot, but teachable, and gains you life. Mana base in general may need work to compensate for it. Not sure if its worth the life gain though
nah, to inconsistent. I would be running 4-5 swamps and 2-3 urborgs. That seems kinda bad. maybe in the u/b lists but probably not here. hmmmm any flash creatures that gain life?
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Thoughts on replacements after seeing the list?
I'm thinking maybe -1 spell snare, -1 EE, -1 tribute to hunger, +1 smother, +1 mana leak, +1 Damnation.
Love it.
Also, I'm looking for a kind a spell to gain me some life through the game (like tribute) however, I don't like most of the options seeing as they're CA disadvantage if you have them when you're not at a low life or just the wrong matchup so:
Looking for a card with some practical uses in most games that also gains life.
We don't really have a practical way to gain life. This is something I have been looking for. Main deck I would just run a life gain instant(Rest for the Weary seems like the best) and sideboard in timely against zoo/aggro/burn. Having one card that is possible dead isn't that bad I mean we do run a singleton extraction effect already.
Also I don't think that deprive should be on that list, it seems less good than the others.
I agree deprive is absolute garbage just like it was in standard. Our counter magic is pretty weak which is why most list run a few discard/removal spells in its place while only running 4-6 counterspells.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I have been playing Pulse of the Fields in my board, and just find the card to be absolutely absurd. Burn decks are running rampant on MODO, and multiple people have just scooped to me ripping EOT4 Teachings --> Pulse.
It's one of those cards that's cumbersome to cast until you've landed in that phase of the game where they've got no/very little gas left but you're sitting at 5-6 life. It allows you to just totally run away with the game. Try it out!
Having one card that is possible dead isn't that bad I mean we do run a singleton extraction effect already.
Yeah, but running another makes it significantly worse to have singletons. I just hate having a pre-mulligan opener, it's a bit of a phobia of mine as a player. Dead Cards=Bad.
Might end up running the rest for the weary which seems better than pulse now that we have the snapcaster mage.
thoughts on extirpate vs. surgical extraction?
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Yeah, but running another makes it significantly worse to have singletons. I just hate having a pre-mulligan opener, it's a bit of a phobia of mine as a player. Dead Cards=Bad.
Might end up running the rest for the weary which seems better than pulse now that we have the snapcaster mage.
thoughts on extirpate vs. surgical extraction?
Well technically playing a control deck forces you to have dead card lol.
extirpate and surgical extraction are mostly the same. Extirpate is better against things in the graveyard that can be effected by activated abilities, and surgical extraction can be played the turn your search for it even on 4th turn.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I think it's a valid point that Ineversmile is bringing up, but at the same time I think that it is a metagame decision. Let's say you're playing zoo on the draw. How good is discard against Zoo? Pretty bad. However, with some hands (or maybe you don't know you're playing zoo), you'll be stuck on discard and no path to exile. At least with the discard you can strip something from the hand of the zoo player, and maybe stop a t2 goyf, or T2 double 1 drop start that we know is so hard for us to deal with. Now, we look at the same thing but insert any 2-drop counterspell on the draw. Against Zoo, a hand with 2-drop counters and no path on the draw is just as abysmal. Maybe I can see, from this, why Iyanaga thought discard could be better. Although it is bad, you still have an opportunity to stop some of the insane Zoo draws in G1 while still being able to beat the crap out of Combo (Splinter Twin was all over worlds). Against the field that was worlds, I wouldn't fault anyone for running Iyanaga's list. What was most important for that field of mostly creatures (even the best combo was creature based) was highly efficient removal and ways to slow down combo strategies (to me, discard could be slightly better against affinity along with zoo). I wouldn't want either card sitting in my hand when I'm staring down 3 3/3s or more on my turn 2 on the draw. At least the 1 drop discard can maybe do something. Note this is a very strong maybe.
Now, if we get into a metagame where things slow down and creatures aren't the majority way to beat face, perhaps counterspells will become a better choice, and honestly, I think it comes down to preference at this point anyway. I know if I wanted to play Iyanaga's version without discard I would more than likely put in 4 Mana Leak 2 Dissipate 2Repeal for starters. I personally love UB versions for the more heavy permission builds. Mine, which is archived now probably (in the old Teachings Thread) ran something like 11-13 counterspells. But the past weeks I decided it was a good idea to try out the Teachings deck that The World Champion decided to play. What I've learned, if anything, is that Rest for the Weary is great tech against the field (my meta is plagued with Burn for some reason too). The other thing I've learned is that there are lots of good builds for Teachings and to really say one is the "best" right now probably isn't the best idea.
My main point for Zoo is that we want to favor removal over anything right now. I think your secondary decisions come down to what your meta looks like and what you're comfortable with playing.
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squad hawk is a terrible idea. We don't run equipment and we don't need a shuffle effect with a few 1/1 chump blockers attached.
As for the soft counters: if your running less than 8 counterspells I wouldn't run these,unless your running 6-8 counterspells then your fine with them.
Albert Einstein
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I'm not really going to argue it that much, since hawk isn't clearly as powerful without Jace to really push him over the top, but Caw-go was a deck, with or without equipment, and I do think that it could merit some consideration. It does stick to the make card advantage, peck (pun intended) life totals away plan that we're working with.
While geist + elspeth is probably just better in every single matchup that squadron hawk would be decent in, it's still an idea that I don't really think is "terrible." Not to mention, in the mirror, an unanswered 1/1, 2/1, 3/2, or anything really, can go the distance. But I said, I don't really want to argue about it and you're probably right slip. It was more a thought then anything that I hadn't tested yet.
In other news, has anyone tested against the Worlds UB Teachings deck with Nephalia Drownyard? I find it nearly impossible to beat with Iyanaga's version of the deck unless you get the godly strip their entire hands sorts of draws.
well hawk isn't really going to be card advantage in modern because it will mostly just chump block.
The UB teachings deck is pretty tough, but winnable if you run heavy discard. Essentially your the aggro in that matchup because they have inevitability on you. So side out any worthless cards(wrath effects, smothers) and sideboard in any threats/discard you have in your sideboard.
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I honestly don't run either, removal and discard is essentially just better. I do run a few random hard counters to get an extra bit out of snappy, but that is the most IMO. Counterspells are just so unreliable in such a fast format without their namesake.
Not a big fan. 3 mana is far too inefficent when trying to deal with zoo. Sure it is good when your already ahead or even, but it won't ever catch you up. In my testing several games you will essentially start a turn or 2 behind. If I was going to drop in any specific removal it would be deathmark.
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I'm not just boarding in Slay for Zoo. I started with 4 Deathmark, but I've since switched to 2 Deathmark, 2 Slay. It's a great teachings target, and a great way to pull ahead once you survive the initial onslaught
EDIT:
My small local meta where I sometimes play has an abundance of planeswalkers (ajani V, Lily, Jace B, and a whole lot of deathcloud with Garruk 1.0) if they can topdeck one past thoughtseize or if I only have IoK (which does get Lily/jace) I really can't beat a resolved one if I don't have a tarpit or mage. Are there any good answers besides bounce then leak/discard?
Play counterspells. Stop screwing around with discard spells and play the more solid type of answer.
Kind of like saying what do i do against a resolved ad nauseum. you dont. you supposed to deal with the thread before it lands play.
worst case, if the planeswalker every goes into play, you can try going eot snap activate manland finish it off or something. but thats like plan C...
planeswalker are usually very very slow for the format so i doupt anyone would play them except maybe a rogue deck. not that it matter anyways you're a teaching decks you basically rape everything that doesnt attack you by turn 2.
Before you crucify me, you should probably reread what he said.
The point is that, when you play Duress effects, you have to accept that your opponent has a strong chance to topdeck into business. That's the nature of discard effects. Sure, a planeswalker will slip through every now and again and that's another problem to solve--but it's a problem you'll have to deal with way less often if your deck has 10 counterspells that stop planeswalkers from ever hitting the table. Yes, I was making a bold point about the subject, but there was a logical reason for my words. Hal was talking about going even further in the direction of discard, but also having trouble with topdecked planeswalkers. This is only going to get worse in an even more discard-heavy build. EDIT: also, Engineeered Explosives is pretty bad against planeswalkers (even against Beleren and Liliana, you're paying 2 more mana than they are to solve the problem, you have to invest 3 at sorcery speed, and your opponent probably will produce card advantage off the walker before you kill it).
As for actually removing planeswalkers when they resolve: well, there are 2 basic ways to do it pre-board. The first way is to roll a flash creature or two and/or use a Tar Pit to kill it with the attack step. The second is to bounce it, whether with Cryptic Command or Repeal or Echoing Truth or whatever.
Post-board, in a metagame where planeswalkers really start showing up and they somehow keep sticking on you, consider Pithing Needle and Vampire Hexmage. But, honestly, at that point...start reevaluating your life. How are 3-5 mana sorcery-speed threats resolving against you on such a regular basis?
@i_never_smile: Are we even playing the same format? Cryptic Command, Mindbreak Trap, Pact of Negation, and Delay are the only real "counterspells" that I'd even run. Remand works best with discard, so I'm not really considering it a counterspell- it's more like Boomerang, really. Trap is a sideboard card to hate out Storm, Cryptic is really a tap and bounce spell, Delay is basically a hard counter, and Pact is only good with Snapcaster and Teachings. Discard is a hell of a lot stronger in the format, especially one as devoted to card quality as Modern is.
Remand
Rune Snag (Mana leak)
Deprive
Negate
Flashfreeze (postboard)
Dispel (postboard)
Rewind
Dissipate
Yeah, the countermagic in this format is terrible. And I'm typing this from my laptop while riding on a Pegasus into Asgard.
What happened to you guys? Why is everyone so scared to play counterspells and draw spells? Countermagic is good against every single deck in the format. Teferi is still the nuts. There are a plethora of great finishers for basically any metagame. There are solutions to combo decks, control decks, aggro decks, and everything in between. All it takes is some deck tuning and tight play. But no, you guys want to be lazy and cross your fingers with Thougtseize and IoK all day, then get mad when your opponent topdecks out of your soft disruption.
So this is why I haven't been reading the Esper Teachings corner of the forum for a while. Everyone has lost the balls to play countermagic in what was once the premier permission archetype.
removal, counterspells >> discard at the moment.
I'm still using the old teferi+fattie engine although I've dropped to 1 of each with 3 snapcaster and 2 tarpit.
I'm still feeling around with the deck and trying to add new ideas that I have.
In solution to the Planeswalker problem I've decided to add in a purge and a needle into the sb maybe with some spell pierce, flashfreeze, and negate action. It seems to work well.
On another note I've dropped down to 3 IoK. It's just very good vs. control, combo, and okay vs. aggro. I don't get so many late game dead draws and I've won a most of the matches that I've played.
I'm still on the fence with EE, heres my current list. LMK what you all think.
4 marsh flats
2 misty rainforest
2 glacial fortress
3 drowned catacomb
1 isolated chapel
3 island
1 plains
1 swamp
1 godless shrine
2 watery grave
2 hallowed fountain
2 darkslick shores
1 consume the meek
1 doom blade
4 path to exile
1 Engineered Explosives
1 tribute to hunger
4 esper charm
3 mystical teachings
1 extirpate
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 cryptic command
3 mana leak
1 remand
3 snapcaster mage
1 teferi, mage of Zhalfir
1 Wurmcoil Engine
A few thoughts:
Spell snare is only good when you run 8 or more counterspells.(not counting itself) tribute to hunger is pretty bad because it cost 3 mana and you don't even get to pick the creature. 1 Engineered Explosives is really not worth it in this deck and probably should be something else.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Thoughts on replacements after seeing the list?
I'm thinking maybe -1 spell snare, -1 EE, -1 tribute to hunger, +1 smother, +1 mana leak, +1 Damnation.
Also, I'm looking for a kind a spell to gain me some life through the game (like tribute) however, I don't like most of the options seeing as they're CA disadvantage if you have them when you're not at a low life or just the wrong matchup so:
Looking for a card with some practical uses in most games that also gains life.
Also I don't think that deprive should be on that list, it seems less good than the others.
and
Tendrills of corruption?
4 mana for a removal spell is a lot, but teachable, and gains you life. Mana base in general may need work to compensate for it. Not sure if its worth the life gain though
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
nah, to inconsistent. I would be running 4-5 swamps and 2-3 urborgs. That seems kinda bad. maybe in the u/b lists but probably not here. hmmmm any flash creatures that gain life?
I agree deprive is absolute garbage just like it was in standard. Our counter magic is pretty weak which is why most list run a few discard/removal spells in its place while only running 4-6 counterspells.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
It's one of those cards that's cumbersome to cast until you've landed in that phase of the game where they've got no/very little gas left but you're sitting at 5-6 life. It allows you to just totally run away with the game. Try it out!
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Yeah, but running another makes it significantly worse to have singletons. I just hate having a pre-mulligan opener, it's a bit of a phobia of mine as a player. Dead Cards=Bad.
Might end up running the rest for the weary which seems better than pulse now that we have the snapcaster mage.
thoughts on extirpate vs. surgical extraction?
Well technically playing a control deck forces you to have dead card lol.
extirpate and surgical extraction are mostly the same. Extirpate is better against things in the graveyard that can be effected by activated abilities, and surgical extraction can be played the turn your search for it even on 4th turn.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Now, if we get into a metagame where things slow down and creatures aren't the majority way to beat face, perhaps counterspells will become a better choice, and honestly, I think it comes down to preference at this point anyway. I know if I wanted to play Iyanaga's version without discard I would more than likely put in 4 Mana Leak 2 Dissipate 2Repeal for starters. I personally love UB versions for the more heavy permission builds. Mine, which is archived now probably (in the old Teachings Thread) ran something like 11-13 counterspells. But the past weeks I decided it was a good idea to try out the Teachings deck that The World Champion decided to play. What I've learned, if anything, is that Rest for the Weary is great tech against the field (my meta is plagued with Burn for some reason too). The other thing I've learned is that there are lots of good builds for Teachings and to really say one is the "best" right now probably isn't the best idea.
My main point for Zoo is that we want to favor removal over anything right now. I think your secondary decisions come down to what your meta looks like and what you're comfortable with playing.