ShiftKut doesn't do good vs RUG Delver, struggles vs jund, and has to race to beat fast aggro, it will not do much to the metagame except that there is a new Teir 1 deck, which is good IMHO
Why would this struggle against Jund? It goldfishes pretty well and has the space for countermagic. I don't like that it's in the format, but if there's a way to play RUG combo I guess I'll hop on.
Why would this struggle against Jund? It goldfishes pretty well and has the space for countermagic. I don't like that it's in the format, but if there's a way to play RUG combo I guess I'll hop on.
Boom//Bust, Sowing Salt, Molten Rain, Stone Rain, Abrupt Decay on Prismatic Omen, thoughtseize, duress, and IoK.
Quote from Erik Lauer from 9/20 B&R Announcement »
We wanted a card that would not easily slot into an existing top deck and also wanted to enable a deck with a different play pattern than the current top decks.
This made me think Golgari Grave-Troll would be unbanned. It would not fit in a currently top tier deck, and dredge utilizes a very counter-intuitive play pattern.
Quote from ... »
After examining the options, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle was selected as the card to unban.
Just kidding, its Valakut! Not what I expected based on the lead in. I wonder if Lauer did that on purpose?
The only decks that could keep Valukut in check back in old extended and Standard was blue based control (which there is very little of in Modern). It ran over Jund and Fae and other midrange decks. I am a little worried once the hive mind realizes they have a deck that can only be beat regularly only by the mirror match we will have a format full of just a couple decks. I am thinking this move will narrow the format but we will wait and see what happens.
Have to agree with most, this unbanning will warp the format. The only decks that could handle it in extended and Standard were blue based control decks (which we have little to none of in Modern). Valukut runs rough shot over mid range plans like Jund and Fae. I feel a much more narrow meta coming up. Valukut is going to bump a lot of decks down a peg in the tiers.
I really don't have time to get into this. Each to their own I guess, if you guys want to make a non-Prismatc Omen build of Scapeshift combo, I wish you the best of luck.
Preliminary testing has shown that Prismatic Omen is entirely unnecessary; the combo reaches it's apex in a decent amount of time and looks very strong against the tier. However, Omen does make the combo quicker and stronger, so I've put forward the idea of having a non-four amount of Omens in the maindeck with the remaining compliment in the sideboard. The idea being that you can side out Omens against decks that you don't need it for and will probably draw hate toward (Jund, Bant, Pod, etc.) and side in the full monty for anything you need to be as fast as possible against that probably can't or won't interact with the enchantment in any relevant fashion (Affinity, Tron, Delver, Zoo, etc.).
It's still early too early to say whether or not Omen is an include, though.
so wait, if valakut is coming back, and the only thing that stops it is dedicated blue control, doesn't that just mean we'll see more dedicated blue control?
Wouldn't that be a good thing?
Though personally, I'm not buying that MUC is the only thing that can stop this.
so wait, if valakut is coming back, and the only thing that stops it is dedicated blue control, doesn't that just mean we'll see more dedicated blue control?
Wouldn't that be a good thing?
Though personally, I'm not buying that MUC is the only thing that can stop this.
Then I am going to say you have never had to play against it. The only decks that had a consistently good match up with Valukut decks was blue based control and land destruction decks. Both of which are not in the Modern setting.
Valakut wasn't an oppressive deck in Extended, this isn't a nightmare unbanning.
Because there was blue based control being played to stop it.
It was bad enough that prior to this unbanning you had to build to beat certain decks and hope you didnt get paired up against the ones you auto lose to. Now you are going to have to build to beat Valukut and hope you dont play anything else. I see the first couple of bigger events to be a lot like the last days of caw-blade. There will be 30-50% Valukut decks in the tournament, 3-5 making top 8, and Affinity out racing one in the finals or some other combo deck comboing off before Valukut can go off.
That was Standard and 4-block Extended. Valakut was not format warping in MIR-ZEN Extended.
you're forgetting about Cawblade, which kept Valakut in check.
Valakut just slays any deck that tries to go midrange. Scapeshift Combo is just a solid deck.
This is going to shake up the metagame for sure.
edit: I'm not sure if it will be incredibly negative, but it's certainly going to push out a lot of fairer decks in the format and just brush in a new wave of combo versus combo versus combo versus combo versus control metagame.
Right, but Rampant Growth would've given you the extra land you need to kill your opponent anyway. . .
You can easily support Cryptic Command in a Omen-less build.
If your valakuts are all mountains as well, you can use prime time to fetch out two of them and they will proc off of each other for 6 damage. That's if you don't have a valakut already out. While prismatic omen doesn't get you a land, you're more likely to be able to get one out anyway.
So I'm crafting around some lists... Four color wouldn't be that hard in this, I don't think. Right?
i believe the Core sets are no longer flavor neutral now. Which means they could probably throw all the Zendi utility un-Legendary lands in it and easily get away with it.
And without Scapeshift or Primetime, it'd be very fair in Standard.
Valakut being unbanned will be great for aggro decks. RDW was already doing great against Karn Tron and Goblins destroyed Valakut when both were in standard.
In turn, this should also help make control a viable option.
On the surface, I am not particularly happy with this. I hope WotC had a moment of mad genius and this somehow balances out the format and makes all archetypes playable (Tempo, Aggro, Midrange, combo, and control). But I am skeptical.
Taking a step into conspiracy theory land, what if they know this is going to do bad things to the format, then reban it next time. Then they get to make the argument anytime someone calls for an unbanning of "The ban list is there for a reason, we're not willing to make another mistake like valakut. Don't you remember how awful it ended up being when we unbanned that?"
That seems entirely not worth it for them, but if they are thinking long term it would be a possibility.
As for the "you can't reprint Jace/valakut" talk. Hogwash. You just have to do some set up with it in mind. Valakut would be fine in a standard that didn't have rampant growth effects.
Jace would be a lot harder to sculpt around, but if they really wanted to they could. Remember, he wasn't running the format when Alara block was in standard. That wasn't all just because he was an unknown quantity. Put some playable haste creatures in standard with him, put some planeswalker killer cards like dreadbore in, and you could get it to a point that its safe. The hardest part to swallow would be that they would need to make all the cards that would go into decks with him a shade weaker. And to keep the price in check, print him in the fall set, of a block that gets drafted normally (if we even remember what that means anymore) so that he's being opened in drafts for a whole year, and put some other good mythics and rares in that set so he doesn't gobble up all the value. It is more work than they probably want to deal with, but they could do it.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
There ya go folks, Moderns first unbanning. I'm sure people will want to talk about its impact, that's were this thread comes in. If you want to brew actual lists, use deck creation.
I'll start it off. Its a powerful card that doesn't fit in any ramp strategies right now. So will it create a new deck of its own or shift a deck towards it?
1. Will Tron shift itself to having a valakut?
2. Will Primeval Titan finally have his day in the sun?
3. Will scapeshift zoo, a deck prior to this use it?
4. Is Kessik Wolfrun, aka the Valakut for creatures, better for this format?
5. Will we see ramp of yesteryears extended come in, (scapeshift, titan, avenger + modnern Ramp goodies?)
6. Will a deck like that only use titans or will it go eldrazi green route?
7. Will this hurt control even harder (uncounterable ramp burn) or will those decks just adapt?
8. Will our aggro decks be able to race this combo?
9. Will tempo decks be able to race/delay this combo?
10. Will it even find a home, or just be a meh deck? 2.0? 1.5? 1.0?
Remember the rules guys, this is just about the news, some fun brainstorming and the effect on the modern format. Talking about them unbanning other cards is not premitted here, and neither is posting up actual deck lists. Saying a concept like "Prime titan is a must" is fine.
Why would this struggle against Jund? It goldfishes pretty well and has the space for countermagic. I don't like that it's in the format, but if there's a way to play RUG combo I guess I'll hop on.
Boom//Bust, Sowing Salt, Molten Rain, Stone Rain, Abrupt Decay on Prismatic Omen, thoughtseize, duress, and IoK.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
This made me think Golgari Grave-Troll would be unbanned. It would not fit in a currently top tier deck, and dredge utilizes a very counter-intuitive play pattern.
Just kidding, its Valakut! Not what I expected based on the lead in. I wonder if Lauer did that on purpose?
Speculate less. Test more.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Actually 7 is the amount needed to win without Omen.
One Valakut, six mountains.
6x3=18
Which is usually where decks are after fetches and shocks. Or you can bolt them down. Whichever.
Stomping Ground and Steam Vents are Mountains.
So, no, it isn't.
Preliminary testing has shown that Prismatic Omen is entirely unnecessary; the combo reaches it's apex in a decent amount of time and looks very strong against the tier. However, Omen does make the combo quicker and stronger, so I've put forward the idea of having a non-four amount of Omens in the maindeck with the remaining compliment in the sideboard. The idea being that you can side out Omens against decks that you don't need it for and will probably draw hate toward (Jund, Bant, Pod, etc.) and side in the full monty for anything you need to be as fast as possible against that probably can't or won't interact with the enchantment in any relevant fashion (Affinity, Tron, Delver, Zoo, etc.).
It's still early too early to say whether or not Omen is an include, though.
Wouldn't that be a good thing?
Though personally, I'm not buying that MUC is the only thing that can stop this.
http://officeofstrategicinfluence.com/spam/ <---- kills spam, fyi.
Then I am going to say you have never had to play against it. The only decks that had a consistently good match up with Valukut decks was blue based control and land destruction decks. Both of which are not in the Modern setting.
Because there was blue based control being played to stop it.
It was bad enough that prior to this unbanning you had to build to beat certain decks and hope you didnt get paired up against the ones you auto lose to. Now you are going to have to build to beat Valukut and hope you dont play anything else. I see the first couple of bigger events to be a lot like the last days of caw-blade. There will be 30-50% Valukut decks in the tournament, 3-5 making top 8, and Affinity out racing one in the finals or some other combo deck comboing off before Valukut can go off.
Because in MIR-ZEN Extended, there was blue based control and land destruction, which Modern has neither.
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So perhaps those kinds of decks will see a rise?
Ghave, the Guru of Spores
Mayael the Anima
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
you're forgetting about Cawblade, which kept Valakut in check.
Valakut just slays any deck that tries to go midrange. Scapeshift Combo is just a solid deck.
This is going to shake up the metagame for sure.
edit: I'm not sure if it will be incredibly negative, but it's certainly going to push out a lot of fairer decks in the format and just brush in a new wave of combo versus combo versus combo versus combo versus control metagame.
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If your valakuts are all mountains as well, you can use prime time to fetch out two of them and they will proc off of each other for 6 damage. That's if you don't have a valakut already out. While prismatic omen doesn't get you a land, you're more likely to be able to get one out anyway.
So I'm crafting around some lists... Four color wouldn't be that hard in this, I don't think. Right?
Ghave, the Guru of Spores
Mayael the Anima
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
The #1 thing that will keep him on the banned list is the impossibility of reprinting him.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
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The one who gets faster, if Tron start to exile Kut's land with Karn, Tron has advantage, if Kut's scapeshift Tron first is the other way around
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i believe the Core sets are no longer flavor neutral now. Which means they could probably throw all the Zendi utility un-Legendary lands in it and easily get away with it.
And without Scapeshift or Primetime, it'd be very fair in Standard.
Sig courtesy of DOLZero
In turn, this should also help make control a viable option.
Taking a step into conspiracy theory land, what if they know this is going to do bad things to the format, then reban it next time. Then they get to make the argument anytime someone calls for an unbanning of "The ban list is there for a reason, we're not willing to make another mistake like valakut. Don't you remember how awful it ended up being when we unbanned that?"
That seems entirely not worth it for them, but if they are thinking long term it would be a possibility.
As for the "you can't reprint Jace/valakut" talk. Hogwash. You just have to do some set up with it in mind. Valakut would be fine in a standard that didn't have rampant growth effects.
Jace would be a lot harder to sculpt around, but if they really wanted to they could. Remember, he wasn't running the format when Alara block was in standard. That wasn't all just because he was an unknown quantity. Put some playable haste creatures in standard with him, put some planeswalker killer cards like dreadbore in, and you could get it to a point that its safe. The hardest part to swallow would be that they would need to make all the cards that would go into decks with him a shade weaker. And to keep the price in check, print him in the fall set, of a block that gets drafted normally (if we even remember what that means anymore) so that he's being opened in drafts for a whole year, and put some other good mythics and rares in that set so he doesn't gobble up all the value. It is more work than they probably want to deal with, but they could do it.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I'll start it off. Its a powerful card that doesn't fit in any ramp strategies right now. So will it create a new deck of its own or shift a deck towards it?
1. Will Tron shift itself to having a valakut?
2. Will Primeval Titan finally have his day in the sun?
3. Will scapeshift zoo, a deck prior to this use it?
4. Is Kessik Wolfrun, aka the Valakut for creatures, better for this format?
5. Will we see ramp of yesteryears extended come in, (scapeshift, titan, avenger + modnern Ramp goodies?)
6. Will a deck like that only use titans or will it go eldrazi green route?
7. Will this hurt control even harder (uncounterable ramp burn) or will those decks just adapt?
8. Will our aggro decks be able to race this combo?
9. Will tempo decks be able to race/delay this combo?
10. Will it even find a home, or just be a meh deck? 2.0? 1.5? 1.0?
Remember the rules guys, this is just about the news, some fun brainstorming and the effect on the modern format. Talking about them unbanning other cards is not premitted here, and neither is posting up actual deck lists. Saying a concept like "Prime titan is a must" is fine.