I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I don't know enough about Tron to say if it will run it, but I see it being run with Primeval Titan, some land tutors, and possibly Life from the Loam.
Dont have the tools to build a solid blue based deck. You are going to have control players trying to build janky control to fight Valukut and losing to everything else.
In my opinion this was one of the worse unbans they could have done. It narrows the meta and leans it heavy toward combo. You are going to see insane fast aggro that if it doesnt win by turn 3 or 4 they lose and fast combo trying to out race Valukut to turn 4 or 5 when Valukut can win pretty consistent. Midrange decks such as Jund and Fae will be auto scoops to Valukut, like they were on old extended. More or less, all Wotc did was get rid of midrange in the meta. If we didnt have the tools to build solid control before, I dont see how its possible now. Time will tell.
I don't think Valakut will have a dramatic impact. I see the format through the lens of a control player, and you already had to be able to interact with land based strategies to be successful.
As a combo deck, it is not faster than Storm, but it can be more resiliant since it needs less dedicated combo pieces. With all the new tools to hurt Kiki-Mite-Get-There in RTR, it might make a better choice than that for a consistent combo deck which doesn't utilize the graveyard.
I don't think Valakut will have a dramatic impact. I see the format through the lens of a control player, and you already had to be able to interact with land based strategies to be successful.
As a combo deck, it is not faster than Storm, but it can be more resiliant since it needs less dedicated combo pieces. With all the new tools to hurt Kiki-Mite-Get-There in RTR, it might make a better choice than that for a consistent combo deck which doesn't utilize the graveyard.
Control and land denial couldnt control tron, what make you think it can control Valukut which is faster and more resiliant?
I think they made a good thing unbanning it, because I feel there are too many aggro/tempo running around here.
And maybe Control may have a chance too, now! (I'm just speaking about what I saw last T2 season, where Valakut was dominating aggro, and Caw-Blade and other Control lists had to keep Valakut in check, while Control was killed by aggro. Post ban, obviously!)
Please explain how adding a faster more consistent, resiliant land based combo deck is going to spur control into the spot light when we had, tron (a land based deck) and storm and twin (combo decks) and the tools were not there to put any of those decks in check?
We will definitely have to see this one play out. I missed the Zendikar era of magic pre-caw blade. When stoneforge mystic and jace were dominating standard Valakut never seemed like that big of a baddie to me since it was somewhat kept in check, though it ran rampant the format before it (I may be incorrect in saying that).
While there is a much bigger card pool in modern for decks to fight Valakut, they seem to also get scapeshift and prismatic omens which just seems bonkers. With Omens you seem to be threatening to double-triple lightning bolt turns 3-4.
I'm excited to always see more diversity in a format from an unbanning, but will be severely disappointed if it keeps other strategies down. After the ban in EDH you think Primeval Titan is officially dead and gone....but it seems he's ready to go once again
The speed should not affect counter spell heavy deck.
Ok, but where was/is this mysterious counter deck? The format is over a year old and it hasnt been made. Like I stated earlier, control players are going to make a janky blue based control deck that kills Valukut and rolls over to everything else.
Personally, I boycotted Modern because Valakut was banned. That's coming from a hard core Legacy player. Valakut is imposible in Legacy and has been a pet deck of mine since zendikar block.
This unbanning got me excited, and because of it, I will build a modern deck.
This unbanning will bring more players to the game.
Personally, I boycotted Modern because Valakut was banned. That's coming from a hard core Legacy player. Valakut is imposible in Legacy and has been a pet deck of mine since zendikar block.
This unbanning got me excited, and because of it, I will build a modern deck.
This unbanning will bring more players to the game.
At the cost of how many that wont play now? Anyone that played midrange just got the shaft.
There is a qualifier coming up in November that many in my play group were play testing for that are questioning going now because of this unbanning.
I think they made a good thing unbanning it, because I feel there are too many aggro/tempo running around here.
And maybe Control may have a chance too, now! (I'm just speaking about what I saw last T2 season, where Valakut was dominating aggro, and Caw-Blade and other Control lists had to keep Valakut in check, while Control was killed by aggro. Post ban, obviously!)
Yeah, this is a cool way too for banning it fast if it dominates the meta. I didn't even thought about that!
And anyway, it's cool to know that they will check the formats in a less period of time!
I largely agree with this. Valakut will be a deck, there's no way around it. What I'm excited about are the meta changes that will combat it. I feel that this could be straw that broke the camel's back, in a sense. Perhaps with the abundance of combo, hard control will be more viable.
There ya go folks, Moderns first unbanning. I'm sure people will want to talk about its impact, that's were this thread comes in. If you want to brew actual lists, use deck creation.
I'll start it off. Its a powerful card that doesn't fit in any ramp strategies right now. So will it create a new deck of its own or shift a deck towards it?
1. Will Tron shift itself to having a valakut?
2. Will Primeval Titan finally have his day in the sun?
3. Will scapeshift zoo, a deck prior to this use it?
4. Is Kessik Wolfrun, aka the Valakut for creatures, better for this format?
5. Will we see ramp of yesteryears extended come in, (scapeshift, titan, avenger + modnern Ramp goodies?)
6. Will a deck like that only use titans or will it go eldrazi green route?
7. Will this hurt control even harder (uncounterable ramp burn) or will those decks just adapt?
8. Will our aggro decks be able to race this combo?
9. Will tempo decks be able to race/delay this combo?
10. Will it even find a home, or just be a meh deck? 2.0? 1.5? 1.0?
Remember the rules guys, this is just about the news, some fun brainstorming and the effect on the modern format. Talking about them unbanning other cards is not premitted here, and neither is posting up actual deck lists. Saying a concept like "Prime titan is a must" is fine.
Tron won't run it - we run 2-3 basics at most and it doesn't synergize with our strategy whatsoever. (Trons + Grove + Basics).
What this DOES do is make Tron hosers like Sowing Salts much more prevalent in the format.
DAMN YOU VALAKUT *shake fist*
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[CENTER]Currently Playing
Modern RG RG Tron GR RUG RUG Twin RUG X Affinity X
I don't think Scapeshift-Valakut makes it much harder for a permission based control deck to exist. There are other factors working against such a deck.
Practically no one was afraid of a Valakut unbanning prior to this announcement. In fact, most were either indifferent or in favor of the idea. No matter what card was going to come off that list, someone was going to go nuts.
Practically no one was afraid of a Valakut unbanning prior to this announcement. In fact, most were either indifferent or in favor of the idea. No matter what card was going to come off that list, someone was going to go nuts.
Maybe in your play group. I know many who are not happy Valukut was unbanned. With the lack of blue based control in the format, Valukut is going to warp the format. The arrival of Valukut isnt going to magicly make blue based control playable. We had combo prior, we had land based decks.. blue based control wasnt/couldnt be played. Anyone who was indifferent to Valukut coming off the list had never played against it.
Valakut getting unbanned will make the format significantly worse. I'm amazed that WotC even unbanned anything, as it took them a while to start unbanning things in legacy and modern has been around for about 1 year.
Say hi to omen scapeshift valakut overlords. Nothing can keep that deck in check really and it will be funny when wotc rebans valakut come gatecrash.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
i think you're overreacting. kind of like how you say a group of us overreact when we say ban emrakul :p. its for the same reason of inevitability that some decks straight up can't handle.
i agree they could have unbanned something else that isn't combo, since the meta already has a ton of it, but (having never played against it,) it seems relatively slow. but with cavern protecting prime time dropping, i can see problems with it..
my biggest beef is that people overlook that Caw shat on valakut, so it stopped being oppressive. but if you look at the last 4 oppressive decks standard has seen, not counting delver, they are caw, valakut, jund, fae. the two non-blue decks are at full strength, while the other two are shadows (or non-existant). hardly fair.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
article
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/20793_Wargate.html
decklist
https://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35941
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
Dont have the tools to build a solid blue based deck. You are going to have control players trying to build janky control to fight Valukut and losing to everything else.
In my opinion this was one of the worse unbans they could have done. It narrows the meta and leans it heavy toward combo. You are going to see insane fast aggro that if it doesnt win by turn 3 or 4 they lose and fast combo trying to out race Valukut to turn 4 or 5 when Valukut can win pretty consistent. Midrange decks such as Jund and Fae will be auto scoops to Valukut, like they were on old extended. More or less, all Wotc did was get rid of midrange in the meta. If we didnt have the tools to build solid control before, I dont see how its possible now. Time will tell.
As a combo deck, it is not faster than Storm, but it can be more resiliant since it needs less dedicated combo pieces. With all the new tools to hurt Kiki-Mite-Get-There in RTR, it might make a better choice than that for a consistent combo deck which doesn't utilize the graveyard.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Control and land denial couldnt control tron, what make you think it can control Valukut which is faster and more resiliant?
Jund never had a favorable match up with Valukut. Sideboard or not.
Every part of the Valakut deck can be interacted with, and disrupted. with Tron, you win before they can play Emrakul or you lose.
Unless I am missing some degenerate tool that this deck has, I think it will be a better matchup.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Please explain how adding a faster more consistent, resiliant land based combo deck is going to spur control into the spot light when we had, tron (a land based deck) and storm and twin (combo decks) and the tools were not there to put any of those decks in check?
But Valukut is fast and more resiliant then tron. The race is now faster and harder to deal with.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
While there is a much bigger card pool in modern for decks to fight Valakut, they seem to also get scapeshift and prismatic omens which just seems bonkers. With Omens you seem to be threatening to double-triple lightning bolt turns 3-4.
I'm excited to always see more diversity in a format from an unbanning, but will be severely disappointed if it keeps other strategies down. After the ban in EDH you think Primeval Titan is officially dead and gone....but it seems he's ready to go once again
Ok, but where was/is this mysterious counter deck? The format is over a year old and it hasnt been made. Like I stated earlier, control players are going to make a janky blue based control deck that kills Valukut and rolls over to everything else.
This unbanning got me excited, and because of it, I will build a modern deck.
This unbanning will bring more players to the game.
Get ready to be disappointed.
At the cost of how many that wont play now? Anyone that played midrange just got the shaft.
There is a qualifier coming up in November that many in my play group were play testing for that are questioning going now because of this unbanning.
I largely agree with this. Valakut will be a deck, there's no way around it. What I'm excited about are the meta changes that will combat it. I feel that this could be straw that broke the camel's back, in a sense. Perhaps with the abundance of combo, hard control will be more viable.
CG
Tron won't run it - we run 2-3 basics at most and it doesn't synergize with our strategy whatsoever. (Trons + Grove + Basics).
What this DOES do is make Tron hosers like Sowing Salts much more prevalent in the format.
DAMN YOU VALAKUT *shake fist*
Modern
RG RG Tron GR
RUG RUG Twin RUG
X Affinity X
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
CG
Maybe in your play group. I know many who are not happy Valukut was unbanned. With the lack of blue based control in the format, Valukut is going to warp the format. The arrival of Valukut isnt going to magicly make blue based control playable. We had combo prior, we had land based decks.. blue based control wasnt/couldnt be played. Anyone who was indifferent to Valukut coming off the list had never played against it.
Say hi to omen scapeshift valakut overlords. Nothing can keep that deck in check really and it will be funny when wotc rebans valakut come gatecrash.
Currently Playing:
Retired
i agree they could have unbanned something else that isn't combo, since the meta already has a ton of it, but (having never played against it,) it seems relatively slow. but with cavern protecting prime time dropping, i can see problems with it..
my biggest beef is that people overlook that Caw shat on valakut, so it stopped being oppressive. but if you look at the last 4 oppressive decks standard has seen, not counting delver, they are caw, valakut, jund, fae. the two non-blue decks are at full strength, while the other two are shadows (or non-existant). hardly fair.