Was wondering, why hasn't a UW Delver list similar to the one during standard been successful in modern? I understand that you no longer have ponder/preordain but serum visions/telling time can be used as replacements and you pick up remand, path to exile, and spell snare.
Heres my u/w the build works amazing, but it needs to be like mine. A pure predator deck, resiliant and efficient. If you want to make uw delver, you need to big, with colonedes and resto angels and swords. Delver is amazing but he has to be a helping hand, you dont draw delver enough in a night to reliy on him. The problem with other delver biulds is there too fragie, the future of delver is in rugged builds packed with full power removal, and counter spells, to combat other midrange, and combo.
Nope, this is not standard.
Red has too many useful tools to not play them. Bolt and helix are just the first that come to mind, but there are things like pyroclasm, izzet charm, magma jet, grim lavamancer, goblin guide, molten rain, electrolyze, forked bolt, etc.
You are replacing those cards with bad blue/white versions.
Nope, this is not standard.
Red has too many useful tools to not play them. Bolt and helix are just the first that come to mind, but there are things like pyroclasm, izzet charm, magma jet, grim lavamancer, goblin guide, molten rain, electrolyze, forked bolt, etc.
You are replacing those cards with bad blue/white versions.
Pretty much this is why very few people have looked at UW Tempo and why UW has gone the way of being a control deck, and we're starting to see what I think are people finally figuring out that you can play UW Lockdown Control decks in the style of WR Control decks that pop up now and then. I've been experimenting with a list that looks similar to this:
Here you pretty much have an aggro-control deck with multiple win conditions and blue disruption and dig coupled with white removal and lock. I've also been experimenting with a build that includes Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for a third part of the lock. Right now Leyline is just a singleton because seeing multiples makes for dead draws. Figure of Destiny is being test right now but might not stay.
^^^^^^^ you need to go big, put two batterskulls in there.
I'll proxy up a couple and give it a shot. That is the only thing that I'm not liking with Geist of Saint Traft - even after I lock down with Ghostly Prison, I need to push through. That's why I was testing Figure of Destiny. Batterskull might be just what I need, though.
Edit:
Did some testing, and going with a list like this seems much more suited to test against the upcoming metagame:
Leyline of Sanctity, Ghostly Prison, and other silver bullets are better left being sb material. Steppe Lynx with 8 fetches in 24 lands with a mana base resistant to Blood Moon will be pretty key.
For your original list you need a way to protect Geist of Saint Traft, it is a huge pain for you to swing with him just using 4 path to exiles. Just seems like using him with any of the swords would work out really nice.
Hey guys. Pretty new to modern here... but I do love playing Delver in every format!
I have been testing my list, below, and it seems pretty solid. It can play a tempo game of riding a turn 1 Delver of Secrets to victory, or play a drawn out grinding game until we land a Runechanter's Pike and swing big. This deck is all about synergy, and that synergy mostly comes from Thought Scour filling our graveyard with resources. The only thing that can't be used from the graveyard is Runechanter's Pike.
For the creatures, its a pretty standard affair...
Delver of Secrets... What more can I say? This guy is an awesome turn 1 play.
Vendilion Clique is an effective flying beater, and helps in the Tron/Combo matchup.
Geist of Saint Traft closes out games quickly, and puts a lot of pressure on the board.
Snapcaster Mage is good in this list, especially with thought scour. He allows us to flash back our counterspells/removal all day long. Especially nice to flash back Cryptic Command
Restoration Angel is our curve topper, and a pretty good one at that. I started running it as a 1 of because all of my threats die to Pyroclasm. She can blank some removal, surprise block, and beat for 3. She also does not die to [CARD]Lightning Bolt
[/CARD], which is nice.
Instants
Thought Scour is the card most other cards revolve around. A cheap cantrip that can help find land drops/gas, it dumps resources into the grave for use with Snapcaster Mage, Moorland Haunt, and Runechanter's Pike. Allows us to let the game drag out while we play control, and then alpha strike with our Pike. Almost everything in the list is usable from the graveyard... this card is virtual card advantage.
Remand is a good counterspell which allows some tricks and cantrips... Could definitely find room for more
Mana Leak is probably one of the best counterspells in modern. Gets weaker later in the game, but combined with remand you can still get value out of it by making them cast the same spell twice, hopefully the second time they wont have 3 to pay.
Cryptic Command... This card is bonkers. Tap down blockers for Geist of Saint Traft to get through, bounce permanents, counter spells, draw... Does everything we want to do. Its a little expensive with a CMC of 4, but it does work. Could probably try to fit 1 more, but sometimes mana is an issue.
Path to Exile is our removal. Hits everything, but also ramps them. Ramping the other player can be a problem with all of our tax counters, but often it's not TOO much of an issue.
Deprive is the only other hard counter other than Cryptic Command. The land bounce isn't too much of an issue unless you're forced to bounce a Seachrome Coast at >3 lands, but most of the time you can avoid it hurting you. This list needs a cheap hard counter, and this is one of the cheapest.
Psionic Blast is my secret tech! Gives us some reach to close out games, as well as being extra removal. Burn in blue? Yes please.
Runechanter's Pike is one of the biggest differences from most tempo lists... Most run Vedalken Shackles which is really good, but we want to counter/remove everything anyway. Pike allows us to grind out games, and has synergy with Thought Scour. A lot of games come down to grinding until we get this card, and then alpha strike with a flash flyer or a Moorland Haunt token.
Land
Moorland Haunt works well with Thought Scour. Gives us blockers to stay in the game, beaters to equip Runechanter's Pike to, and allows us to reuse our creature cards from the grave.
On shocklands/fetches and why I don't run them: I can see the benefit of the two, but a lot of the time you can be punished for paying life for your mana base... fetching for an untapped shock is essentially Lightning Bolting ourselves. Let everyone else do that, we'll save our life to stay in the game. Also, as a two color deck, where White is almost just a splash, we aren't too susceptible to color screw. Most people won't side in Blood Moon for us, considering we're only 2 colors with plenty of basics.
Sideboard
Sideboard is still a work in progress... Not too sure of the metagame right now, but we are prepared for Tron, which is popular where I play. Haven't played much against Jund, but its a very grindy matchup from what I've experienced.
Detention Sphere: Extra removal for problem permanents like Planeswalkers/Artifacts/Enchantments. Nice catch-all.
Surgical Extraction graveyard/combo hate that can be flashed back with Snapcaster Mage? Very nice. I could see where maybe some more graveyard hate is needed in the board, but I don't see too many grave reliant decks in my meta.
Supreme Verdict: Uncounterable sweeper, what more needs to be said? Good against aggro, and even aggro-control. I've killed Emrakrul off Summoning Trap more than once with it.
Timely Reinforcements: Burn/Aggro can be a rough matchup and I always try to expect to go against at least one of the two in Modern. I could go with Kitchen Finks, but double white turn 3 can be difficult, and we only run 1 Restoration Angel
Disenchant: Efficient Enchantment/Artifact hate. I think I need another one in the board, but Detention Sphere hits the same stuff... Can be flashed back with Snapcaster Mage which is a plus.
Spreading Seas: Land hate that cantrips, and in a format full of greedy manabases, can lead to some blowouts. Good vs Tron and reasonable against Jund considering they need all their colors. It doesn't flip Delver of Secrets, which kind of sucks, but its a small price to pay.
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Thoughts on a list like this?
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
Instants/Sorceries
4 Vapor Snag
4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Telling Time
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
6 Island
Or more realistically something like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Restoration Angel
Instants/Sorceries
4 Vapor Snag
4 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
3 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thought Scour
4 Remand
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Moorland Haunt
4 Island
Heres my u/w the build works amazing, but it needs to be like mine. A pure predator deck, resiliant and efficient. If you want to make uw delver, you need to big, with colonedes and resto angels and swords. Delver is amazing but he has to be a helping hand, you dont draw delver enough in a night to reliy on him. The problem with other delver biulds is there too fragie, the future of delver is in rugged builds packed with full power removal, and counter spells, to combat other midrange, and combo.
Red has too many useful tools to not play them. Bolt and helix are just the first that come to mind, but there are things like pyroclasm, izzet charm, magma jet, grim lavamancer, goblin guide, molten rain, electrolyze, forked bolt, etc.
You are replacing those cards with bad blue/white versions.
Pretty much this is why very few people have looked at UW Tempo and why UW has gone the way of being a control deck, and we're starting to see what I think are people finally figuring out that you can play UW Lockdown Control decks in the style of WR Control decks that pop up now and then. I've been experimenting with a list that looks similar to this:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
Enchantments:
2 Detention Sphere
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Hindering Light
4 Remand
4 Telling Time
Sorceries:
3 Serum Visions
Lands:
3 Arid Mesa
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
1 Moorland Haunt
3 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
Here you pretty much have an aggro-control deck with multiple win conditions and blue disruption and dig coupled with white removal and lock. I've also been experimenting with a build that includes Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for a third part of the lock. Right now Leyline is just a singleton because seeing multiples makes for dead draws. Figure of Destiny is being test right now but might not stay.
I'll proxy up a couple and give it a shot. That is the only thing that I'm not liking with Geist of Saint Traft - even after I lock down with Ghostly Prison, I need to push through. That's why I was testing Figure of Destiny. Batterskull might be just what I need, though.
Edit:
Did some testing, and going with a list like this seems much more suited to test against the upcoming metagame:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Steppe Lynx
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
Enchantments:
2 Detention Sphere
Instants:
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Vapor Snag
4 Remand
2 Telling Time
1 Cryptic Command
4 Serum Visions
Lands:
4 Arid Mesa
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
1 Moorland Haunt
4 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
Leyline of Sanctity, Ghostly Prison, and other silver bullets are better left being sb material. Steppe Lynx with 8 fetches in 24 lands with a mana base resistant to Blood Moon will be pretty key.
I have been testing my list, below, and it seems pretty solid. It can play a tempo game of riding a turn 1 Delver of Secrets to victory, or play a drawn out grinding game until we land a Runechanter's Pike and swing big. This deck is all about synergy, and that synergy mostly comes from Thought Scour filling our graveyard with resources. The only thing that can't be used from the graveyard is Runechanter's Pike.
Here's my list for a modern UW delver:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Restoration Angel
2 Vendilion Clique
Instant
4 Thought Scour
2 Remand
3 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
1 Deprive
1 Psionic Blast
4 Serum Visions
Artifact
2 Runechanter's Pike
Land
2 Moorland Haunt
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Plains
8 Island
2 Detention Sphere
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Disenchant
3 Spreading Seas
Card Explanations:
Creatures
For the creatures, its a pretty standard affair...
Delver of Secrets... What more can I say? This guy is an awesome turn 1 play.
Vendilion Clique is an effective flying beater, and helps in the Tron/Combo matchup.
Geist of Saint Traft closes out games quickly, and puts a lot of pressure on the board.
Snapcaster Mage is good in this list, especially with thought scour. He allows us to flash back our counterspells/removal all day long. Especially nice to flash back Cryptic Command
Restoration Angel is our curve topper, and a pretty good one at that. I started running it as a 1 of because all of my threats die to Pyroclasm. She can blank some removal, surprise block, and beat for 3. She also does not die to [CARD]Lightning Bolt
[/CARD], which is nice.
Instants
Thought Scour is the card most other cards revolve around. A cheap cantrip that can help find land drops/gas, it dumps resources into the grave for use with Snapcaster Mage, Moorland Haunt, and Runechanter's Pike. Allows us to let the game drag out while we play control, and then alpha strike with our Pike. Almost everything in the list is usable from the graveyard... this card is virtual card advantage.
Remand is a good counterspell which allows some tricks and cantrips... Could definitely find room for more
Mana Leak is probably one of the best counterspells in modern. Gets weaker later in the game, but combined with remand you can still get value out of it by making them cast the same spell twice, hopefully the second time they wont have 3 to pay.
Cryptic Command... This card is bonkers. Tap down blockers for Geist of Saint Traft to get through, bounce permanents, counter spells, draw... Does everything we want to do. Its a little expensive with a CMC of 4, but it does work. Could probably try to fit 1 more, but sometimes mana is an issue.
Path to Exile is our removal. Hits everything, but also ramps them. Ramping the other player can be a problem with all of our tax counters, but often it's not TOO much of an issue.
Spell Pierce is our 1 mana combo/removal killer. Great for protection from removal when you turn 1 Delver of Secrets, and turn 2 Serum Visions/Thought Scour. Very nice tempo card.
Deprive is the only other hard counter other than Cryptic Command. The land bounce isn't too much of an issue unless you're forced to bounce a Seachrome Coast at >3 lands, but most of the time you can avoid it hurting you. This list needs a cheap hard counter, and this is one of the cheapest.
Psionic Blast is my secret tech! Gives us some reach to close out games, as well as being extra removal. Burn in blue? Yes please.
Sorcery
Serum Visions... I WISH this card was Ponder/Preordain but its not. Helps flip Delver of Secrets and sets up our draw. It's nice to put lands on the bottom because we curve out at 4 (6 if you want to flash back Cryptic Command with Snapcaster Mage.
Artifact
Runechanter's Pike is one of the biggest differences from most tempo lists... Most run Vedalken Shackles which is really good, but we want to counter/remove everything anyway. Pike allows us to grind out games, and has synergy with Thought Scour. A lot of games come down to grinding until we get this card, and then alpha strike with a flash flyer or a Moorland Haunt token.
Land
Moorland Haunt works well with Thought Scour. Gives us blockers to stay in the game, beaters to equip Runechanter's Pike to, and allows us to reuse our creature cards from the grave.
Eiganjo Castle allows us to protect Vendilion Clique/Geist of Saint Traft and force through damage. Legendary status keeps it as a 1 of.
On shocklands/fetches and why I don't run them: I can see the benefit of the two, but a lot of the time you can be punished for paying life for your mana base... fetching for an untapped shock is essentially Lightning Bolting ourselves. Let everyone else do that, we'll save our life to stay in the game. Also, as a two color deck, where White is almost just a splash, we aren't too susceptible to color screw. Most people won't side in Blood Moon for us, considering we're only 2 colors with plenty of basics.
Sideboard
Sideboard is still a work in progress... Not too sure of the metagame right now, but we are prepared for Tron, which is popular where I play. Haven't played much against Jund, but its a very grindy matchup from what I've experienced.
Detention Sphere: Extra removal for problem permanents like Planeswalkers/Artifacts/Enchantments. Nice catch-all.
Spell Pierce for the Combo/Control matchup. Helps us resolve our Geist of Saint Traft turn 4 instead of turn 5.
Surgical Extraction graveyard/combo hate that can be flashed back with Snapcaster Mage? Very nice. I could see where maybe some more graveyard hate is needed in the board, but I don't see too many grave reliant decks in my meta.
Supreme Verdict: Uncounterable sweeper, what more needs to be said? Good against aggro, and even aggro-control. I've killed Emrakrul off Summoning Trap more than once with it.
Timely Reinforcements: Burn/Aggro can be a rough matchup and I always try to expect to go against at least one of the two in Modern. I could go with Kitchen Finks, but double white turn 3 can be difficult, and we only run 1 Restoration Angel
Disenchant: Efficient Enchantment/Artifact hate. I think I need another one in the board, but Detention Sphere hits the same stuff... Can be flashed back with Snapcaster Mage which is a plus.
Spreading Seas: Land hate that cantrips, and in a format full of greedy manabases, can lead to some blowouts. Good vs Tron and reasonable against Jund considering they need all their colors. It doesn't flip Delver of Secrets, which kind of sucks, but its a small price to pay.