Does this deck need/want Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard?
The problem with this card is that this deck rarely reaches 4 mana, so you either get it in your opener and make it hard for jund/storm to beat you, or you draw it and it sits in your hand. I know that's the same issue with other decks that play the card, but other decks that play leylines can reach 4 mana.
So ideally you want to play stuff that's 3 mana or less. I've seen people play rule of law, but that also shuts off your deck, especially if you're playing keen sense and draw a lot of gas.
You can still race other combo decks though. So I think silence might be worth trying. You silence them on their upkeep and they can't go off, and on your turn you swing for the win.
Against jund there's a cheaper more fragile version of leyline of sanctity, true believer.
This build is confusing to me, I really don't understand the card choices, especially the creatures, but also a main deck natures claim and 2 mana tithes? Anyone have any clue what this is trying to do? The creature count is only 13, so it's not like it upped it really.
This build is confusing to me, I really don't understand the card choices, especially the creatures, but also a main deck natures claim and 2 mana tithes? Anyone have any clue what this is trying to do? The creature count is only 13, so it's not like it upped it really.
It's also strange how all the of the creatures are susceptible to removal. A deck like this really wants your opponents to work to remove your threats.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
enchantress has always been a pretty fun style of deck. glad to see it getting good results in this format.
so, my question is does blue have anything to contribute here? my first thought is ophidian effects so you don't have to rely on spiritdancer as a draw engine. how good would that be?
Take your monoblack deck, then set aside 14 swamps. Add 4 Creeping Tar Pits, 4 Darkslick Shores, 4 Drowned Catacombs, and 2 Jwar isle Refuge and add 4 Jace, the Mindsculptors. Your monoblack deck is instantly better. Better yet, drop those refuges, throw in some islands and some mana leaks, and lo and behold, you're now playing a real deck. Congratulations. Welcome to the world of competitive M:TG.
Using blue ups the average CMC of the deck since you're playing Spectral Flight instead of Spider Umbra. However, Stalker is blocked by a lot less things than Ledgewalker (notably, not 1/1 Spirit tokens). Between Rancor and Unstable Mutation it seems that Rancor is better.
Then you also have the SB to think about - with green you have Nature's Claim and hatebears, while with blue you have counterspells, bounce and...uh...Meddling Mage.
I don't think you want any of those Blue cards. Maybe you want to add a couple of lands and add Geist of Saint Traft, but if you are going Blue I would try Bant and use the blue splash for Spell Pierce. That card beats everything that can answer your hexproof creatures G1 barring a Supreme Verdict...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I'd give a detailed report but it's easier to say I just lost every game.
Admittedly - and I realize this is a big point - I chose to be on the draw almost every time. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek took care of me a lot. Dryad Arbor only saves you from Liliana if you have the fetch sitting on the board and the Arbor in the library. The closest I came to winning was one game where i drew a Dryad Arbor but never drew a fetch. I was forced to lay the Arbor down which got bolted before Liliana was cast and then I lost a Bogle that had 5 enchantments on it.
I'm guessing that anyone who has had success with this against Jund is probably playing Jund opponents who don't play Liliana or Thoughtseize/Inquisition.
Among other problems I ran into - sometimes I had pockets of auras but not the right auras. I had a Rancor and 4 umbras on a Bogle in one particular game in which I'd been on the play but he used two Inquisitions to take Ethereal Armor and Daybreak Coronet out of my hand. Eventually Liliana removed the Bogle and Tarmagoyf beat the crap out of me.
Admittedly - and I realize this is a big point - I chose to be on the draw almost every time.
That's the problem. Your deck is aggressive, so you should choose to play. So what if your opponent has discard? You have redundancy. There are like 20+ different Auras in your deck that pretty much do the same thing. If he takes out one of them it's not too hard to draw into another.
If you play first, you can also drop a creature before it becomes vulnerable to discard. It's much easier to draw another Aura than it is to draw another creature, going by the numbers of each that are in the deck.
That's the problem. Your deck is aggressive, so you should choose to play. So what if your opponent has discard? You have redundancy. There are like 20+ different Auras in your deck that pretty much do the same thing. If he takes out one of them it's not too hard to draw into another.
If you play first, you can also drop a creature before it becomes vulnerable to discard. It's much easier to draw another Aura than it is to draw another creature, going by the numbers of each that are in the deck.
I'm not trying to lead anyone astray. I did that to myself because I knew it would be disadvantageous.
I'm being methodical.
I was also playing both sides. It does require a little bit more thought to pretend that I don't know what's in each hand but I always make a reasonable play based on what information is available. For example I don't assume that the deck is GW aura until I see a hexproof creature. There are many occasions where I've made the 'sensible' play for one side or the other even though I knew that a less sensible play would be more effective.
On the other hand I don't ever forget that Ethereal Armor gives first strike and I always take the most damaging card when I play discard so you may have better results if you're playing against someone who makes mistakes. You'll definitely have better results if you get to be on the play twice but you can't count on that.
Doesn't spellskite completely wreck this deck? It's possibly for an opponent to change the target of all auras to their spellskite no? That would mean the meta can sideboard against bogles with a very broad answer.
Doesn't spellskite completely wreck this deck? It's possibly for an opponent to change the target of all auras to their spellskite no? That would mean the meta can sideboard against bogles with a very broad answer.
Depending on how many auras you have in hand and how good they are, Spellskite may come in too late to stop quite a bit of the bleeding. For example, Rancor/Ethereal Armor + Umbra is already 4 power on Turn 2, and if you're on the play, Spellskite now dies trying to block.
nothing broken to add, and probably not needed but there is Battle Mastery to add to the deck. It's 3 casting so thats bad, but it seems better than the second daybreak.
nothing broken to add, and probably not needed but there is Battle Mastery to add to the deck. It's 3 casting so thats bad, but it seems better than the second daybreak.
I would never consider battle mastery over Daybreak. 3 is bad like you said. Double strike isn't worth 3 mana imo. But what do you mean by the 2nd daybreak? A second copy of Daybreak? or a 2nd version of Daybreak?
I would never consider battle mastery over Daybreak. 3 is bad like you said. Double strike isn't worth 3 mana imo. But what do you mean by the 2nd daybreak? A second copy of Daybreak? or a 2nd version of Daybreak?
I don't mean over daybreak. What I mean is if you have a creature( only creature in play) with a daybreak already on it, mastery would play out better than a second daybreak on that creature as it doubles the life gain. Also it has value with keen sense. It on the "win more" lines; I just stumbled on the aura and never seen it before and thought I'd mention it is all.
What made this deck explode? There isn't anything new added that makes it any better than it could have been previously. Is it just the state of the meta?
What made this deck explode? There isn't anything new added that makes it any better than it could have been previously. Is it just the state of the meta?
Not cheap anymore with the Coronet increase (well, still cheap by comparison to tier 1). Sucks too, I love these type of decks and was about to pick up coronets because I like the card..then this deck came up and the card mafias jumped the price up
What made this deck explode? There isn't anything new added that makes it any better than it could have been previously. Is it just the state of the meta?
Some guy got 30th in the first mtgo PTQ. Some pro players noticed it, Marc Lalague, Cedric Phillips, and John Kassari, and they started playing it and tweaking it after they saw the decklist. Marc Lalague really hyped it on his stream, and Kassari was buying cards on his stream (he had over 50 coronets), which caused other people to buy the cards as well. Their tweaks to the deck with keen sense and more kor spiritdancers put other net deckers into the top 8/16 of ptqs.
The deck was at a pretty good point in the meta since less people are playing liliana. And not many people understood how the deck worked and what cards are good against it.
However it's probably a tier 3 deck, as more people know how to play against it and more people have some sideboard hate. The deck has some weaknesses to main deck cards, liliana, thoughtseize/IoK, and spellskite. But if it gets the right match ups and wins most of the die rolls, it can win a PTQ, hexproof is very powerful.
The deck was at a pretty good point in the meta since less people are playing liliana. And not many people understood how the deck worked and what cards are good against it.
However it's probably a tier 3 deck, as more people know how to play against it and more people have some sideboard hate. The deck has some weaknesses to main deck cards, liliana, thoughtseize/IoK, and spellskite. But if it gets the right match ups and wins most of the die rolls, it can win a PTQ, hexproof is very powerful.
As long as the GW little kid deck that punishes discard is doing well, this deck will do well. That deck's success will help this one.
I find that the deck is very similar to the infect deck. It's nifty and most people are not prepared for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
So after the hype dies down do you guys think this will still be a solid option? I was able to grab 4 Daybreak Coronet from the binders at my local shop and I'm debating whether to finish this or off them. I have everything but the horizon canopys and dryad arbors but I don't want to invest in a dying deck.
On what's new and what makes Bogle playable: I think Ethereal armor actually made this deck viable, the damage boost from it is insane in the bogle deck. That's the new addition that made this viable I reckon.
I don't think this deck is particularly vulnerable against Liliana alone, as a fetch for dryad arbor solves most of your problem. More edict effects than that do disable the deck however, just like any mass enchantment removal etc.
The thing is, this is the only real mass enchantment deck that is played in modern, so if people want to sideboard for this matchup they need to alot sideboard space for this matchup particularly. When the hype dwindles the sideboard hate will too, as those sideboard slots are not worth it in general. I reckon this will give this deck a nice solid place in the meta, balanced by the amount of slots that people alot to beating it. (much like legacy dredge for example, performing well when gy hate is low).
One thing that's awkward about the deck is that it's not easy to tune it to the metagame. There's not a lot of very cheap cards that synergize well with the deck AND are good against particular decks. This means that when you play this deck you don't have the flexibility to tune the deck to a specific environment, it's really a one-trick pony. Also: if you play bogle in a smaller environment like FNM, people will know your deck and will be more prepared. I reckon that will be really detrimental to the deck's strength.
For the time being, I think we will see a lot of sideboard spellskites against bogle and infect.
So after the hype dies down do you guys think this will still be a solid option? I was able to grab 4 Daybreak Coronet from the binders at my local shop and I'm debating whether to finish this or off them. I have everything but the horizon canopys and dryad arbors but I don't want to invest in a dying deck.
Ceddy, GerryT and some other pros already dismissed the deck on twitter. But it's still doing well in PTQs. It's probably not going to die, it's the break out deck of the PTQ season. And people will want to try it out and win with the bogle. It might die after the PTQ season as it has some problems.
I don't think it'll ever be tier 1 since it has problems with spellskite, discard and liliana which are in some peoples' main decks.
The deck also isn't that fun to play as it's inconsistent. There are draws where you just ignore your opponent, make a voltron and win on turn 4. Then there are games where you mull to 5 and your only creature is dryad arbor. There are games where you draw the wrong auras, or you get stuck on 1 land since this deck only runs 20 lands. Keen sense and kor spiritdancer help this deck become more consistent, but those problems I mentioned can still happen.
One thing that's awkward about the deck is that it's not easy to tune it to the metagame. There's not a lot of very cheap cards that synergize well with the deck AND are good against particular decks. This means that when you play this deck you don't have the flexibility to tune the deck to a specific environment, it's really a one-trick pony.
There are a lot of cards you can play with this deck. The deck has problems with faster combo decks, spellskite, discard, and fast aggro decks.
For combo, there's teeg, spellskite, canonist, silence, leyline of sanctity, rule of law, rest in peace.
For spellskite there's nature's claim, oxidize, Seal of primordium, lignify, and stony silence.
For decks that run discard there's leyline of sanctity.
For fast aggro decks there's spirit link.
A lot of those cards can be used in other match ups where you see fit. You don't want to be taking out too many cards of the main deck as it needs the auras to win.
Is it still putting up numbers? How is it doing in Dailies?
Yes
Interesting take on the deck
1 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
20 lands
2 Dryad Militant
4 Kor Spiritdancer
3 Loam Lion
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
1 Spellskite
1 Student of Warfare
13 creatures
1 Dismember
4 Ethereal Armor
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Hyena Umbra
3 Keen Sense
2 Mana Tithe
1 Nature's Claim
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Rancor
2 Spider Umbra
1 Spirit Mantle
27 other spells
2 Hyena Umbra
2 Nature's Claim
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spellskite
2 Spirit Link
1 Stony Silence
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Young Wolf
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
The problem with this card is that this deck rarely reaches 4 mana, so you either get it in your opener and make it hard for jund/storm to beat you, or you draw it and it sits in your hand. I know that's the same issue with other decks that play the card, but other decks that play leylines can reach 4 mana.
So ideally you want to play stuff that's 3 mana or less. I've seen people play rule of law, but that also shuts off your deck, especially if you're playing keen sense and draw a lot of gas.
You can still race other combo decks though. So I think silence might be worth trying. You silence them on their upkeep and they can't go off, and on your turn you swing for the win.
Against jund there's a cheaper more fragile version of leyline of sanctity, true believer.
This build is confusing to me, I really don't understand the card choices, especially the creatures, but also a main deck natures claim and 2 mana tithes? Anyone have any clue what this is trying to do? The creature count is only 13, so it's not like it upped it really.
It's also strange how all the of the creatures are susceptible to removal. A deck like this really wants your opponents to work to remove your threats.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
so, my question is does blue have anything to contribute here? my first thought is ophidian effects so you don't have to rely on spiritdancer as a draw engine. how good would that be?
Invisible Stalker <-> Silhana Ledgewalker
Curiosity <-> Keen Sense
Unstable Mutation <-> Rancor
Spectral Flight <-> Spider Umbra?
Using blue ups the average CMC of the deck since you're playing Spectral Flight instead of Spider Umbra. However, Stalker is blocked by a lot less things than Ledgewalker (notably, not 1/1 Spirit tokens). Between Rancor and Unstable Mutation it seems that Rancor is better.
Then you also have the SB to think about - with green you have Nature's Claim and hatebears, while with blue you have counterspells, bounce and...uh...Meddling Mage.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
~ Brian DeMars
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=348011
I'd give a detailed report but it's easier to say I just lost every game.
Admittedly - and I realize this is a big point - I chose to be on the draw almost every time. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek took care of me a lot. Dryad Arbor only saves you from Liliana if you have the fetch sitting on the board and the Arbor in the library. The closest I came to winning was one game where i drew a Dryad Arbor but never drew a fetch. I was forced to lay the Arbor down which got bolted before Liliana was cast and then I lost a Bogle that had 5 enchantments on it.
I'm guessing that anyone who has had success with this against Jund is probably playing Jund opponents who don't play Liliana or Thoughtseize/Inquisition.
Among other problems I ran into - sometimes I had pockets of auras but not the right auras. I had a Rancor and 4 umbras on a Bogle in one particular game in which I'd been on the play but he used two Inquisitions to take Ethereal Armor and Daybreak Coronet out of my hand. Eventually Liliana removed the Bogle and Tarmagoyf beat the crap out of me.
That's the problem. Your deck is aggressive, so you should choose to play. So what if your opponent has discard? You have redundancy. There are like 20+ different Auras in your deck that pretty much do the same thing. If he takes out one of them it's not too hard to draw into another.
If you play first, you can also drop a creature before it becomes vulnerable to discard. It's much easier to draw another Aura than it is to draw another creature, going by the numbers of each that are in the deck.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I'm not trying to lead anyone astray. I did that to myself because I knew it would be disadvantageous.
I'm being methodical.
I was also playing both sides. It does require a little bit more thought to pretend that I don't know what's in each hand but I always make a reasonable play based on what information is available. For example I don't assume that the deck is GW aura until I see a hexproof creature. There are many occasions where I've made the 'sensible' play for one side or the other even though I knew that a less sensible play would be more effective.
On the other hand I don't ever forget that Ethereal Armor gives first strike and I always take the most damaging card when I play discard so you may have better results if you're playing against someone who makes mistakes. You'll definitely have better results if you get to be on the play twice but you can't count on that.
Depending on how many auras you have in hand and how good they are, Spellskite may come in too late to stop quite a bit of the bleeding. For example, Rancor/Ethereal Armor + Umbra is already 4 power on Turn 2, and if you're on the play, Spellskite now dies trying to block.
I would never consider battle mastery over Daybreak. 3 is bad like you said. Double strike isn't worth 3 mana imo. But what do you mean by the 2nd daybreak? A second copy of Daybreak? or a 2nd version of Daybreak?
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
I don't mean over daybreak. What I mean is if you have a creature( only creature in play) with a daybreak already on it, mastery would play out better than a second daybreak on that creature as it doubles the life gain. Also it has value with keen sense. It on the "win more" lines; I just stumbled on the aura and never seen it before and thought I'd mention it is all.
Because It's cheap and Incredibly efficient in beating tier 1 decks. Also the mono black discard deck that's floating around is a pretty hard match up, they discard your spells then make you sac your creatures.
And, 4th and 7th place in a ptq... http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4776138
Not cheap anymore with the Coronet increase (well, still cheap by comparison to tier 1). Sucks too, I love these type of decks and was about to pick up coronets because I like the card..then this deck came up and the card mafias jumped the price up
Some guy got 30th in the first mtgo PTQ. Some pro players noticed it, Marc Lalague, Cedric Phillips, and John Kassari, and they started playing it and tweaking it after they saw the decklist. Marc Lalague really hyped it on his stream, and Kassari was buying cards on his stream (he had over 50 coronets), which caused other people to buy the cards as well. Their tweaks to the deck with keen sense and more kor spiritdancers put other net deckers into the top 8/16 of ptqs.
Apparently it got 2 more ptq top 8s today:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=473059&page=9
The deck was at a pretty good point in the meta since less people are playing liliana. And not many people understood how the deck worked and what cards are good against it.
However it's probably a tier 3 deck, as more people know how to play against it and more people have some sideboard hate. The deck has some weaknesses to main deck cards, liliana, thoughtseize/IoK, and spellskite. But if it gets the right match ups and wins most of the die rolls, it can win a PTQ, hexproof is very powerful.
As long as the GW little kid deck that punishes discard is doing well, this deck will do well. That deck's success will help this one.
I find that the deck is very similar to the infect deck. It's nifty and most people are not prepared for it.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
I don't think this deck is particularly vulnerable against Liliana alone, as a fetch for dryad arbor solves most of your problem. More edict effects than that do disable the deck however, just like any mass enchantment removal etc.
The thing is, this is the only real mass enchantment deck that is played in modern, so if people want to sideboard for this matchup they need to alot sideboard space for this matchup particularly. When the hype dwindles the sideboard hate will too, as those sideboard slots are not worth it in general. I reckon this will give this deck a nice solid place in the meta, balanced by the amount of slots that people alot to beating it. (much like legacy dredge for example, performing well when gy hate is low).
One thing that's awkward about the deck is that it's not easy to tune it to the metagame. There's not a lot of very cheap cards that synergize well with the deck AND are good against particular decks. This means that when you play this deck you don't have the flexibility to tune the deck to a specific environment, it's really a one-trick pony. Also: if you play bogle in a smaller environment like FNM, people will know your deck and will be more prepared. I reckon that will be really detrimental to the deck's strength.
For the time being, I think we will see a lot of sideboard spellskites against bogle and infect.
Ceddy, GerryT and some other pros already dismissed the deck on twitter. But it's still doing well in PTQs. It's probably not going to die, it's the break out deck of the PTQ season. And people will want to try it out and win with the bogle. It might die after the PTQ season as it has some problems.
I don't think it'll ever be tier 1 since it has problems with spellskite, discard and liliana which are in some peoples' main decks.
The deck also isn't that fun to play as it's inconsistent. There are draws where you just ignore your opponent, make a voltron and win on turn 4. Then there are games where you mull to 5 and your only creature is dryad arbor. There are games where you draw the wrong auras, or you get stuck on 1 land since this deck only runs 20 lands. Keen sense and kor spiritdancer help this deck become more consistent, but those problems I mentioned can still happen.
There are a lot of cards you can play with this deck. The deck has problems with faster combo decks, spellskite, discard, and fast aggro decks.
For combo, there's teeg, spellskite, canonist, silence, leyline of sanctity, rule of law, rest in peace.
For spellskite there's nature's claim, oxidize, Seal of primordium, lignify, and stony silence.
For decks that run discard there's leyline of sanctity.
For fast aggro decks there's spirit link.
A lot of those cards can be used in other match ups where you see fit. You don't want to be taking out too many cards of the main deck as it needs the auras to win.