I hardly consider this deck to be a real contender. Does anyone else agree? I thought that it only has one top 8 appearance and if that is true it hardly makes this deck qualified as "Proven". If I am wrong, do feel free to correct me, but I think this thread should stick to the "Established" section.
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"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
I think it was top 8 at a Grand Prix (or was it Pro Tour?), which is a considerably bigger deal than top 8 at a PTQ.
People are still looking for the best combination of cards to really make it go the distance, but it is a deck that only needs to resolve a single spell to win.
Every deck I play seems to involve counter spells somehow. If counter spells are around I am hardly worried about this deck. I have only played it a handful of times though but I have always thought it to be lacking.
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"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
Every deck I play seems to involve counter spells somehow. If counter spells are around I am hardly worried about this deck. I have only played it a handful of times though but I have always thought it to be lacking.
You play Snapcaster, lots of dig, and counters of your own (including Remand which can target your own Scapeshift in response to their counter, one of my favourite things to do), and play more counters and Boseiju post-board, and possibly creature win-cons. In my experience Scapeshift doesn't care about counters at all. The real problems are extremely fast decks like affinity, storm and that dredge deck that has started showing up.
Scapeshift is definitely a contender. It's super consistent, incredibly resilient against everything not called Slaughter Games (which can also be beaten), and incredibly powerful. People are just still figuring out the right way to build it. I've been playing a relatively stock UG list and have consistently been going X-1 or X-0at my LGS's weekly Modern events. And then there are different lists like RG or the Omen list with Explores and Oracles that GerryT posted the other day which I also plan on testing.
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Standard: Humanimator
Modern: Jund, Wafo-Tapa UWR
Legacy: Witch-Maw Stoneblade
EDH: Ruhan of the Fomori, Hazezon Tamar, Maga, Traitor to Mortals
It may be alright for Scapeshift to be in Proven, but I don't get why this should be Proven, but Eggs is not.
Both decks are recognized as tournament worthy, had good performances at big events and both decks show up more or less often on MTGO dailies.
Every deck I play seems to involve counter spells somehow. If counter spells are around I am hardly worried about this deck. I have only played it a handful of times though but I have always thought it to be lacking.
I still don't understand why people think counters keep Scapeshift in check or something
Dude, I PREY on control decks with RUG Scapeshift, I run 11 counters main and I only need 1 card to win, do you think they have a chance?
The game usually goes like this: they play some lands, counter some of my ramp (it's ok, it's ok...) and don't play anything else. Then at some point they play something (whatever, a geist, even some random 2 drop) and leave, say only 5 mana open.
Then I untap with my turn, calmly Scapeshift, a barrage of counters come from them which are easily dealt with with my hand full of Izzet Charms, Remands and Cryptic Commands that I've sculpted all these turns. They miraculously counter SS? Guess what, I have another one, or a Snapcaster, or even an Eternal Witness in some builds. GG. Control doesn't have a chance.
(And we also have Boseiju btw)
No, the decks that cause me real problems are brutally fast aggro decks like Affinity, and ESPECIALLY disruptive weenie decks like Death & Taxes which seems made to beat Scapeshift with all the land destruction and search deprivation Preboard I'd say it's 70/30 for them, post with some firespouts and grudges and such, more like 55/45
Edit: all in all, a very solid deck which still needs some work to get to Tier 1. Extremely favorable against control, good against combo (nice counters) and has some problems with aggro. But Proven? Yes, definitely
Counterspells keep Scapeshift in check when a solid clock is behind them. I'm having a fairly bad time against RUG Tempo Thresh/RUG Delver with my UGr Scapeshift Combo deck because they sic an abnormally efficient threat while I'm ramping and I'm nearly dead by the time I hit 7-8 lands. This means I have to go off with whatever hand I have. Unfortunately, it often holds a Remand or Izzet Charm while they have 4 lands and cast Deprive on Scapeshift. ...Or it holds zero counterspells and they counter Scapeshift with Deprive or Cryptic Command.
Smart Delver players counter early spells with soft counterspells like Mana Leak and Spell Pierce. Those are bunk against Scapeshift because I always cast that spell with at least 3 mana up by necessity.
Danteh, I find it hard to believe that you can fight a decent counter war that involves Cryptic Commands on your side. I normally combo off with 7-8 lands, so if my only response to 2 counterspells is Cryptic, I'm doomed.
My fast build ironically has less trouble with Affinity and RDW (and even UWR Delver--it's brutally fast, but it can't counter Scapeshift worth anything) than it has with RUG Delver.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, the decks that UGr Scapeshift Combo preys on are non-interactive decks like RG Artifact Tron/Karn Tron (even Twin Pod is more interactive, curse Glen Elendra Archmage), more awkward combo like Exarch Twin (Remand is the nuts against them, they can't disrupt you so well), and Jund. Oh yes, Jund. Their only evasive creature can only ping for 2 damage a turn. Slaughter Games post-board sucks, though, but otherwise, you can fight through a mountain of discard. Playing a one-card combo tends to let you do this.
The existence of this thread is exactly why we have shied away from adding subforums for these decks that could be a flash in the pan in the past. Unfortunately nobody was crying against it before I requested the Sub.
At any rate, I have not voted, and we are listening to this discussion.
In the mean time, we'll put the thread here and use the sub. This will also be stickied.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
The existence of this thread is exactly why we have shied away from adding subforums for these decks that could be a flash in the pan in the past. Unfortunately nobody was crying against it before I requested the Sub.
At any rate, I have not voted, and we are listening to this discussion.
In the mean time, we'll put the thread here and use the sub. This will also be stickied.
Glad to see you guys are paying attention regardless.
Well you got 22 for, 22 for soonish, 7 against and 5 not caring. Seems to me its clearly worth it. And yes, I think this is a deck. I wouldnt say the details are panned down for this deck, it did only sort of been given birth... but it has good MU and Bad MU like every other competive deck. Ususally it can crush midrange and light control.
Playing a relatively slow deck implies that you have to deal with early pressure somehow or you won't get to the point where you can explode. Maybe, I'm doing it wrong when I played it... Maybe not. I love trying new decks but I was getting destroyed by Infect, RDW, WUR and Tron all day. Packing 10 different counters was not enough. I gave up!
I played a version similar to that one who made 4-0 on mtgo last weekend by MN_Mac.
It's been a viable strategy before. Valakut got banned, it went away. Valakut gets unbanned, it comes back. Not sure what the issue is. It's not like this is some new deck we've never seen before.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
I find that the structure and goal of the deck produce effects that are very powerful in the format, however i would need to become well versed in the deck's current tweaks and techs that help fight through uneasy matchups...which is what i thought 'proven' would have come to mean. As an old extended scapeshift player i know the power of the deck and say it will undoubtedly deserve the spot in proven with the modern forums acknowledging its potential. (Id play it again myself, i just need to hunt stomping grounds )
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I think Scapeshift is as much of a deck as Robots or Infect - if you want to beat it, put 6 cards in your sideboard and you'll beat it. If you don't respect it, it'll roll you.
I believe atm there's one huge problem for Scapeshifts tournament records: Infect. At least I believe Infect is Scapeshifts worst MU and it's currently pretty heavily played
How can a red deck lose for infect? What about Sudden shock?
The issue I have, is I hate boarding Sudden Shock. It's great against infect, ok against Delver, and average to bad everywhere else. It may be a necessary evil though.
The issue I have, is I hate boarding Sudden Shock. It's great against infect, ok against Delver, and average to bad everywhere else. It may be a necessary evil though.
What about Splinter Twin and Pod? Sudden Shock shuts off most of their infinite token combos.
It placed recently if I remember correctly, even though RG Tron didn't. I think this deck is solid and will continue to grow.
There were two Scapeshift decks in the Top 8 of Grand Prix Toronto. Between that and a Top 4 at the Pro Tour, I don't know what else you really need for it to be considered Proven.
[QUOTE=Lord Seth;/comments/5120256]What about Splinter Twin and Pod? Sudden Shock shuts off most of their infinite token combos./QUOTE]
It kills half of the twin Combo, but not the other half. Boarding in a card that could be completly dead. Seeing Eot Deceiver Exarch into Splinter Twin, while holding Sudden Shock seems bad to me. As for Pod, it kills half a Kitchen Finks or Kiki Jiki. Izzet Charm does the same thing, with more flexibility, and I still don't run it.
What about Splinter Twin and Pod? Sudden Shock shuts off most of their infinite token combos.
It kills half of the twin Combo, but not the other half. Boarding in a card that could be completly dead. Seeing Eot Deceiver Exarch into Splinter Twin, while holding Sudden Shock seems bad to me.
You're wrong that it kills half of the combo. It kills 75% of it. If they combo with Kiki/Exarch, Kiki/Pestermite, or Pestermite/Splinter Twin, you can thwart it with Sudden Shock. The only one it doesn't stop (unless you're lucky enough to have two Sudden Shocks) is Splinter Twin and Exarch. So it kills 75% of the combo. Hence my usage of the word "most."
As for Pod, it kills half a Kitchen Finks or Kiki Jiki. Izzet Charm does the same thing, with more flexibility, and I still don't run it.
Wait, huh? Why would you use it to kill half a Kitchen Finks? Wouldn't its usage in regards to Kitchen Finks be to kill Melira, shutting off the Kitchen Finks combo? That's my point, Sudden Shock kills Melira to thwart her combos and also kills Kiki Jiki to stop his combos.
Izzet Charm doesn't do the same thing exactly because unlike Sudden Shock, it can be responded to. Which, while less of a factor in the Birthing Pod matchups, is relevant in the Infect and Splinter Twin matchups. Hence my point that Sudden Shock had more uses than you were giving it credit for.
is there a reason this thread is still stickied? Scapeshift has put 1 if not more in every gp/pt since unbanning of valakut...
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I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
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Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
People are still looking for the best combination of cards to really make it go the distance, but it is a deck that only needs to resolve a single spell to win.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Signature by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures
"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"
You play Snapcaster, lots of dig, and counters of your own (including Remand which can target your own Scapeshift in response to their counter, one of my favourite things to do), and play more counters and Boseiju post-board, and possibly creature win-cons. In my experience Scapeshift doesn't care about counters at all. The real problems are extremely fast decks like affinity, storm and that dredge deck that has started showing up.
Scapeshift is definitely a contender. It's super consistent, incredibly resilient against everything not called Slaughter Games (which can also be beaten), and incredibly powerful. People are just still figuring out the right way to build it. I've been playing a relatively stock UG list and have consistently been going X-1 or X-0at my LGS's weekly Modern events. And then there are different lists like RG or the Omen list with Explores and Oracles that GerryT posted the other day which I also plan on testing.
Modern: Jund, Wafo-Tapa UWR
Legacy: Witch-Maw Stoneblade
EDH: Ruhan of the Fomori, Hazezon Tamar, Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Both decks are recognized as tournament worthy, had good performances at big events and both decks show up more or less often on MTGO dailies.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I still don't understand why people think counters keep Scapeshift in check or something
Dude, I PREY on control decks with RUG Scapeshift, I run 11 counters main and I only need 1 card to win, do you think they have a chance?
The game usually goes like this: they play some lands, counter some of my ramp (it's ok, it's ok...) and don't play anything else. Then at some point they play something (whatever, a geist, even some random 2 drop) and leave, say only 5 mana open.
Then I untap with my turn, calmly Scapeshift, a barrage of counters come from them which are easily dealt with with my hand full of Izzet Charms, Remands and Cryptic Commands that I've sculpted all these turns. They miraculously counter SS? Guess what, I have another one, or a Snapcaster, or even an Eternal Witness in some builds. GG. Control doesn't have a chance.
(And we also have Boseiju btw)
No, the decks that cause me real problems are brutally fast aggro decks like Affinity, and ESPECIALLY disruptive weenie decks like Death & Taxes which seems made to beat Scapeshift with all the land destruction and search deprivation Preboard I'd say it's 70/30 for them, post with some firespouts and grudges and such, more like 55/45
Edit: all in all, a very solid deck which still needs some work to get to Tier 1. Extremely favorable against control, good against combo (nice counters) and has some problems with aggro. But Proven? Yes, definitely
Smart Delver players counter early spells with soft counterspells like Mana Leak and Spell Pierce. Those are bunk against Scapeshift because I always cast that spell with at least 3 mana up by necessity.
Danteh, I find it hard to believe that you can fight a decent counter war that involves Cryptic Commands on your side. I normally combo off with 7-8 lands, so if my only response to 2 counterspells is Cryptic, I'm doomed.
My fast build ironically has less trouble with Affinity and RDW (and even UWR Delver--it's brutally fast, but it can't counter Scapeshift worth anything) than it has with RUG Delver.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, the decks that UGr Scapeshift Combo preys on are non-interactive decks like RG Artifact Tron/Karn Tron (even Twin Pod is more interactive, curse Glen Elendra Archmage), more awkward combo like Exarch Twin (Remand is the nuts against them, they can't disrupt you so well), and Jund. Oh yes, Jund. Their only evasive creature can only ping for 2 damage a turn. Slaughter Games post-board sucks, though, but otherwise, you can fight through a mountain of discard. Playing a one-card combo tends to let you do this.
At any rate, I have not voted, and we are listening to this discussion.
In the mean time, we'll put the thread here and use the sub. This will also be stickied.
Glad to see you guys are paying attention regardless.
:symr:RG Karn Tron:symg:
:symu:UR Storm:symr:
With the addition of slaughter games (it can't be countered), I'd rather play something else than have my win con being extracted from my deck.
Ghost quarter / tectonic edge + extirpate / surgical extraction and Valakut is out of the game! Sowing salt same thing. Do I have to mention Leyline of sanctity?
Playing a relatively slow deck implies that you have to deal with early pressure somehow or you won't get to the point where you can explode. Maybe, I'm doing it wrong when I played it... Maybe not. I love trying new decks but I was getting destroyed by Infect, RDW, WUR and Tron all day. Packing 10 different counters was not enough. I gave up!
I played a version similar to that one who made 4-0 on mtgo last weekend by MN_Mac.
It still needs work IMHO.
WU Resto Blade
RUG Tron
BUG Infect
WBG Melira Pod
WBRG White Jund
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
and even with that just board for it
The issue I have, is I hate boarding Sudden Shock. It's great against infect, ok against Delver, and average to bad everywhere else. It may be a necessary evil though.
GWBJunk TokensBWG
Modern
GURScapeshiftRUG
BGRDredgevineRGB
URSTORM!RU
UWTezzeret ControlWU
Legacy
BWStonebladeWB
BUGBUG ControlGUB
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There were two Scapeshift decks in the Top 8 of Grand Prix Toronto. Between that and a Top 4 at the Pro Tour, I don't know what else you really need for it to be considered Proven.
It kills half of the twin Combo, but not the other half. Boarding in a card that could be completly dead. Seeing Eot Deceiver Exarch into Splinter Twin, while holding Sudden Shock seems bad to me. As for Pod, it kills half a Kitchen Finks or Kiki Jiki. Izzet Charm does the same thing, with more flexibility, and I still don't run it.
GWBJunk TokensBWG
Modern
GURScapeshiftRUG
BGRDredgevineRGB
URSTORM!RU
UWTezzeret ControlWU
Legacy
BWStonebladeWB
BUGBUG ControlGUB
Wait, huh? Why would you use it to kill half a Kitchen Finks? Wouldn't its usage in regards to Kitchen Finks be to kill Melira, shutting off the Kitchen Finks combo? That's my point, Sudden Shock kills Melira to thwart her combos and also kills Kiki Jiki to stop his combos.
Izzet Charm doesn't do the same thing exactly because unlike Sudden Shock, it can be responded to. Which, while less of a factor in the Birthing Pod matchups, is relevant in the Infect and Splinter Twin matchups. Hence my point that Sudden Shock had more uses than you were giving it credit for.
GWBJunk TokensBWG
Modern
GURScapeshiftRUG
BGRDredgevineRGB
URSTORM!RU
UWTezzeret ControlWU
Legacy
BWStonebladeWB
BUGBUG ControlGUB
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying