I suppose the original name for this was Delverless UWR. The pilot of this deck, krazykirby4 found Delver and Steppe Lynx far to brittle for the format, and thus went with a different package of creatures. Congratz to him on his second PTQ win, the first being at PTQ Philadelphia.
Record against:
Jund: 3-1
Twin: 3-0
Scapeshift: 1-0
BW Tokens: 1-1(lost in swiss, won in top 8)
Affinity: 1-0
Storm: 1-0
Counterflux stopped the storm cold :p.
One note. After the fact, krazykirby4 decided that the Sword of Fire and Ice was an underperformer in the deck. Based on a viewer suggestion and agreement by krazykirby4, they decided it would probably be best if that was simply a third electrolyze.
Whichever. It won. Just noting the facts as I know them :). Thanks again to krazykirby for a great stream and the willingness to show replays of all his matches, along with answering questions for everyone there.
Tect edge is poopy, and geist is fragile without support.
Please note that the quoted poster refers to land destruction as 'land control' and the only basis that I've read for the dislike of tec edge is that it is colourless. Maybe I missed something regarding how the distaste for tec edge has been elucidated.
Also, the mention of 'land control' is not a reason to discredit his opinions, but it is still funny to me all the same.
Post-board it looks very well positioned against most of the field, notably Jund, Storm, and Valakut, but it looks to me like in game 1 it might be spreading itself too thin to have a really good game against any particular deck. I suppose a fairly even match against most of the field is better than a blowout against 2-3 decks and an uphill battle against another 2-3 decks. It works for Jund, so I'm not surprised.
Can anybody help me to understand how is Counterflux better than Mindbreak Trap, though?
Counterflux and Mindbreak Trap are both fantastic against storm, but Counterflux is also a useful 3cc counterspell on its own without Overload in many other matchups. Mindbreak Trap is often less useful (it can be countered) and over-costed (4cc vs 3cc) by comparison outside of the Storm matchup.
This looks pretty good. I have played UWR decks a LOT. The mana is not really a problem because you mostly just need one of each color and you have the enemy fetch land advantage.
I would do serum visions, or what ever is the best "thirst for knowlede" right now. With tect edge you must run more lands, with more lands you get watered down draws.
To me, Tec Edge is indispensable in a format where 90% of the decks are either VERY color-intensive or play utility lands. The ability to answer such problems without having to spend precious spells is very important for a control(ish) deck.
Also, if 15 removal spells aren't enough support for Geist, I don't know what would.
Can anybody help me to understand how is Counterflux better than Mindbreak Trap, though?
You are just sculpting their lands, with 3 pte's they can easily work around tect edge. The mana and your land isnt worth it.
Please note that the quoted poster refers to land destruction as 'land control' and the only basis that I've read for the dislike of tec edge is that it is colourless. Maybe I missed something regarding how the distaste for tec edge has been elucidated.
Also, the mention of 'land control' is not a reason to discredit his opinions, but it is still funny to me all the same.
It is land control, you are attempting to control the colors other decks can produce, same as creature control, or hand control.
Tect edge is poopy, and geist is fragile without support.
I'll agree that Tec Edge is kind of greedy. As for GoST... at the very worst you can usually get in for 4, possibly even trading off for something... and the potential upside is huge. That's a very good burn spell for this burn deck.
Wow I love this deck. I was playing a more classic UWR Delver before, and am now playing UW Resto - I feel that Delver was too squishy, and UW Resto (while better) is too dependant on a good draw, whereas other decks can perform good with a mediocre draw.
I'm definately going to try this out!
I dont have all the cards. I have 2 Clique, 3 Snap and 3 Geist. Could I maybe add 3 Finks instead?
I think delver himself can work in a deck like this. Not as a delver deck, but a strong beater, that allows versatile mana usage, that these decks are lacking. and he holds a sword like a boss.
This looks like a top of the line deck once we get boros charm.
I dont have all the cards. I have 2 Clique, 3 Snap and 3 Geist. Could I maybe add 3 Finks instead?
Not really. The deck is finely tuned, it won 2 PTQs in a row. The only change you should make is what Brandon Large did, and change the sword to an electrolyze.
If you watch the archives, Geist is the best card in the deck. A geist deck won the standard GP for a reason, and GW Bogle is doing well for a reason, hexproof is a dumb mechanic. And with people playing less lilianas and geists of their own, the card is a huge beating when you remove all their blockers. And for that reason expect this decks win % go down as people adjust to it. So start playing it now as opposed to a month from now.
I think you really want the 4th snapcaster and 4th geist. Clique might be cuttable since it really only shines vs combo, which means it's not that great against ~50-60% of the field. If you want to replace these cards you have to replace them with flash creatures that are good beaters. The deck is a burn deck as well, so you want evasive creatures with high power to finish out the game. Plus having creatures with flash makes this deck harder to play around, and lets you leave up counter magic every turn.
I think delver himself can work in a deck like this.
Delver would probably be playable if it flipped 60% of the time as opposed to the 40% of the time it flips in modern. No ponder makes the card really bad, that's why it was so good in standard, but so bad in modern.
This deck reminds me of the deck I built right after snapcaster was spoiled, except replace the planeswalkers with Geists.
The old archived thread can be found here. The strength of a deck like this is it's removal / burn suite combined with snapcaster. That's half the reason why UWR delver is a good deck, it can just burn you out so easily with snapcasters and bolts / helixes.
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Not really. The deck is finely tuned, it won 2 PTQs in a row. The only change you should make is what Brandon Large did, and change the sword to an electrolyze.
I would just like to note that, as I said in the original post, adding the 3rd electrolyze in place of the sword was a decision made while Larry(krazykirby4) was going over the replays on his stream. Ppl in the stream noted, as did Larry, that the electrolyze would be better, considering how poor the sword seemed to be while playing the tourney. The Tec edge was, honestly, really good in both the PTQs. Oh yah, as the previous poster already noted, Brandon Large won the latest PTQ with this very same deck, actually only conceding in the last game of the swiss to a player, allowing him to make the top 8 :p.
I would just like to note that, as I said in the original post, adding the 3rd electrolyze in place of the sword was a decision made while Larry(krazykirby4) was going over the replays on his stream. Ppl in the stream noted, as did Larry, that the electrolyze would be better, considering how poor the sword seemed to be while playing the tourney. The Tec edge was, honestly, really good in both the PTQs. Oh yah, as the previous poster already noted, Brandon Large won the latest PTQ with this very same deck, actually only conceding in the last game of the swiss to a player, allowing him to make the top 8 :p.
Brandon said he would like to test 2 restoration angels in place of izzet charms. Izzet charm is the worst card in the deck (shocker), and if this deck becomes popular restoration angel would be good in the mirror.
Edit, also Ari Lax said Larry tweaked this deck from a previous list that did well at a PTQ, anyone have that list?
It appears Larry played very similar versions in multiple dailies shortly after this event and then about a week later, he played the tweaked "Geist of Saint Win"
I bought the last Snap and Geist, but have removed the 1 Clique. I am now experimenting with a single Sphinx's Revelation. It's a rare draw of course, but it's a wonderful card. It was dead in one game, but in most games it gives me 3 cards and life.
Has anyone else experimented a bit?
i tried using it as a 1-of before as well but this was before i put in the 4 GoSTs. now that i've changed my build to incorporate them i'm not too sure what i want to take out for it. i'm leaning towards taking out 1 mindcensor (or moving both to the SB and adding in something else along with the revelation)
Having taken a look through all of the games (slow day at work), I'm actually really impressed with how well Tec Edge worked for him.
I never thought the purpose of playing two of them was land control, at least how it's defined earlier in this thread. I always took it as more of a way to get rid of that one problem land, like opposing Celestial Colonnades. He used it much more effectively though as a delay tactic, denying double red for that one extra turn against Exarch Twin or slowing Scapeshift down by one turn. Those more incremental uses were very, very effective. I doubt that it's coincidence that the most effective uses of Tec Edge were against low-creature decks.
Given that the mana is pretty good for a UWR deck (all 8 fetches get you any of your duals), I think it's fine running those couple of colorless lands. I don't know that I'd go for a third with Academy Ruins though, especially when the only main deck artifact is one that likely shouldn't be there anyway.
This deck looks like a lot of fun. I'm a sucker for UWR decks anyway and I look forward to trying to fit Restoration Angel into it when I get home. Izzet Charm seemed pretty useful a number of times and I'm not sure about cutting it...I wonder if the sword and one Clique can go instead?
This deck looks like a lot of fun. I'm a sucker for UWR decks anyway and I look forward to trying to fit Restoration Angel into it when I get home. Izzet Charm seemed pretty useful a number of times and I'm not sure about cutting it...I wonder if the sword and one Clique can go instead?
The guy who won the "second" PTQ cut the sword for another electrolyze, which was suggested by the guy won the "first" PTQ with it. If you want to cut some cards the weakest is izzet charm, followed by aven mindcensor. If you feel like you won't be playing against much pod, scapeshift, rg tron or eggs, you can put the mindcensor in the board. Mindcensor is the card you side out the most, but you want it main since it fits on curve, has flash, is evasive, and helps you in the bad match ups I mentioned. Assuming this deck becomes very popular (it's slowly starting to rise), you're probably going to want to take out some of the X/1 cards that aren't snapcaster to not get blown out by electrolyze.
The guy who won the "second" PTQ cut the sword for another electrolyze, which was suggested by the guy won the "first" PTQ with it. If you want to cut some cards the weakest is izzet charm, followed by aven mindcensor. If you feel like you won't be playing against much pod, scapeshift, rg tron or eggs, you can put the mindcensor in the board. Mindcensor is the card you side out the most, but you want it main since it fits on curve, has flash, is evasive, and helps you in the bad match ups I mentioned. Assuming this deck becomes very popular (it's slowly starting to rise), you're probably going to want to take out some of the X/1 cards that aren't snapcaster to not get blown out by electrolyze.
I actually saw when I got home that the guy that won the "second" PTQ 3-1'd a daily yesterday by putting the Aven Mindcensors in the board (in place of Pyroclasm, which is probably overkill anyway) and putting the angels in their place.
I'm less concerned about the curve with Mindcensor since there are already 7 other 3CMC creatures in the deck (sort of, since it's multiples of two legends, but you know). I am concered about not having them main for some of those matchups, but I'm gonna give it a try for a bit and see what happens, mostly based on 1) beating a pod deck tonight 2-0 without ever seeing a Mindcensor, and 2) that the stream still showed some good play against Scapeshift without the Mindcensor in play. I can always go back to taking the Izzet Charms out if it seems bad.
I actually saw when I got home that the guy that won the "second" PTQ 3-1'd a daily yesterday by putting the Aven Mindcensors in the board (in place of Pyroclasm, which is probably overkill anyway) and putting the angels in their place.
I'm less concerned about the curve with Mindcensor since there are already 7 other 3CMC creatures in the deck (sort of, since it's multiples of two legends, but you know). I am concered about not having them main for some of those matchups, but I'm gonna give it a try for a bit and see what happens, mostly based on 1) beating a pod deck tonight 2-0 without ever seeing a Mindcensor, and 2) that the stream still showed some good play against Scapeshift without the Mindcensor in play. I can always go back to taking the Izzet Charms out if it seems bad.
Well the guy who won the second PTQ is testing those changes. It's not clear whether the deck needs angels, when it already won 2 PTQs back to back. More testing needs to be done to make a definitive statement.
This deck can beat pod, but it's really hard when they resolve one. Also there are some pretty bad pod players as the deck has a big decision tree, and since this geist deck is new people might not know what to do against it.
But yeah go ahead and test those changes and tell us how it goes.
Well it guess it depends what you face, but even with the Mindscensors they beat jund 8 times total I think he said, of course 2 isn't a high ratio to see them. Aven destroy pod hard while angel is good vs junds removal and BbE. I could see running 2 Cliq, 2 Aven 1 Resto main, with an additional of each in the board. I think cutting pyroclasm is a mistake it has so much value vs a wide portion of the format.
I wonder, how would Figure of Destiny do in this deck? It's effectively a flash creature when it comes to leaving up removal/countermagic, and is a great topdeck late game.
What would you take out to put in figure of destiny? All the creatures have some sort of value ability or are very hard to kill. So having your figure just get bolted/killed for no value seems to not help the deck.
Also this deck doesn't have many turn 1 plays, so you normally lead with a tapped land. Figure forces you to take 2-3 damage and/or play colonnade at a bad time.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
3 Remand
2 Electrolyze
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Arid Mesa
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Batterskull
2 Counterflux
1 Disenchant
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rule of Law
2 Sowing Salt
2 Tempest of Light
I suppose the original name for this was Delverless UWR. The pilot of this deck, krazykirby4 found Delver and Steppe Lynx far to brittle for the format, and thus went with a different package of creatures. Congratz to him on his second PTQ win, the first being at PTQ Philadelphia.
Record against:
Jund: 3-1
Twin: 3-0
Scapeshift: 1-0
BW Tokens: 1-1(lost in swiss, won in top 8)
Affinity: 1-0
Storm: 1-0
Counterflux stopped the storm cold :p.
One note. After the fact, krazykirby4 decided that the Sword of Fire and Ice was an underperformer in the deck. Based on a viewer suggestion and agreement by krazykirby4, they decided it would probably be best if that was simply a third electrolyze.
Whichever. It won. Just noting the facts as I know them :). Thanks again to krazykirby for a great stream and the willingness to show replays of all his matches, along with answering questions for everyone there.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
Please note that the quoted poster refers to land destruction as 'land control' and the only basis that I've read for the dislike of tec edge is that it is colourless. Maybe I missed something regarding how the distaste for tec edge has been elucidated.
Also, the mention of 'land control' is not a reason to discredit his opinions, but it is still funny to me all the same.
Out of curiosity, why Engineered Explosives and Batterskull out of the board without an Academy Ruins to re-use them, and why opt for Rule of Law over Ethersworn Cannonist? It seems to me like the matchups in which those are good, they'd be so good as to be worthwhile re-using with Academy Ruins.
Speculate less. Test more.
Counterflux and Mindbreak Trap are both fantastic against storm, but Counterflux is also a useful 3cc counterspell on its own without Overload in many other matchups. Mindbreak Trap is often less useful (it can be countered) and over-costed (4cc vs 3cc) by comparison outside of the Storm matchup.
Speculate less. Test more.
I agree tec edge seems greedy in this deck with 3 colors and heavy colored requirements. Though maybe you have to be greedy to win these tournaments?
I don't know why people keep trying to play swords. They rarely work out.
Deck looks pretty sweet though. Nice aggro control build.
i used to try playing swords as well but with abrupt decay in the format now i stay away from them.. it's just not worth it.
http://www.twitch.tv/krazykirby
he's streaming as i post this
brandonlarge won the modo PTQ tonight with this deck
I would do serum visions, or what ever is the best "thirst for knowlede" right now. With tect edge you must run more lands, with more lands you get watered down draws.
You are just sculpting their lands, with 3 pte's they can easily work around tect edge. The mana and your land isnt worth it.
It is land control, you are attempting to control the colors other decks can produce, same as creature control, or hand control.
I'll agree that Tec Edge is kind of greedy. As for GoST... at the very worst you can usually get in for 4, possibly even trading off for something... and the potential upside is huge. That's a very good burn spell for this burn deck.
I think delver himself can work in a deck like this. Not as a delver deck, but a strong beater, that allows versatile mana usage, that these decks are lacking. and he holds a sword like a boss.
This looks like a top of the line deck once we get boros charm.
Not really. The deck is finely tuned, it won 2 PTQs in a row. The only change you should make is what Brandon Large did, and change the sword to an electrolyze.
If you watch the archives, Geist is the best card in the deck. A geist deck won the standard GP for a reason, and GW Bogle is doing well for a reason, hexproof is a dumb mechanic. And with people playing less lilianas and geists of their own, the card is a huge beating when you remove all their blockers. And for that reason expect this decks win % go down as people adjust to it. So start playing it now as opposed to a month from now.
I think you really want the 4th snapcaster and 4th geist. Clique might be cuttable since it really only shines vs combo, which means it's not that great against ~50-60% of the field. If you want to replace these cards you have to replace them with flash creatures that are good beaters. The deck is a burn deck as well, so you want evasive creatures with high power to finish out the game. Plus having creatures with flash makes this deck harder to play around, and lets you leave up counter magic every turn.
Looking at gatherer there's not that many good choices to replace clique at 3 mana:
Aven Mindcensor
Pestermite
Stonecloaker
There's also midnight haunting, but that's probably bad, but interesting.
If you go up to 4 mana there's:
Celestial Crusader
Hollowhenge Spirit
Restoration Angel
Seht's Tiger
Venser, Shaper Savant
Voidmage Husher
I think they said on stream that restoration angel could be good in the deck. So i'd probably play angel if you don't have some of the creatures.
Delver would probably be playable if it flipped 60% of the time as opposed to the 40% of the time it flips in modern. No ponder makes the card really bad, that's why it was so good in standard, but so bad in modern.
The old archived thread can be found here. The strength of a deck like this is it's removal / burn suite combined with snapcaster. That's half the reason why UWR delver is a good deck, it can just burn you out so easily with snapcasters and bolts / helixes.
I would just like to note that, as I said in the original post, adding the 3rd electrolyze in place of the sword was a decision made while Larry(krazykirby4) was going over the replays on his stream. Ppl in the stream noted, as did Larry, that the electrolyze would be better, considering how poor the sword seemed to be while playing the tourney. The Tec edge was, honestly, really good in both the PTQs. Oh yah, as the previous poster already noted, Brandon Large won the latest PTQ with this very same deck, actually only conceding in the last game of the swiss to a player, allowing him to make the top 8 :p.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
Brandon said he would like to test 2 restoration angels in place of izzet charms. Izzet charm is the worst card in the deck (shocker), and if this deck becomes popular restoration angel would be good in the mirror.
Edit, also Ari Lax said Larry tweaked this deck from a previous list that did well at a PTQ, anyone have that list?
I am not 100%, but I believe this is the originating list. It placed T16 in Modern PTQ #4776139 on Jan 2, 2013
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
3 Path to Exile
4 Remand
2 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Isochron Scepter
4 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Clifftop Retreat
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Counterflux
1 Disenchant
1 Path to Exile
3 Sowing Salt
2 Rule of Law
2 Stony Silence
It appears Larry played very similar versions in multiple dailies shortly after this event and then about a week later, he played the tweaked "Geist of Saint Win"
i tried using it as a 1-of before as well but this was before i put in the 4 GoSTs. now that i've changed my build to incorporate them i'm not too sure what i want to take out for it. i'm leaning towards taking out 1 mindcensor (or moving both to the SB and adding in something else along with the revelation)
I never thought the purpose of playing two of them was land control, at least how it's defined earlier in this thread. I always took it as more of a way to get rid of that one problem land, like opposing Celestial Colonnades. He used it much more effectively though as a delay tactic, denying double red for that one extra turn against Exarch Twin or slowing Scapeshift down by one turn. Those more incremental uses were very, very effective. I doubt that it's coincidence that the most effective uses of Tec Edge were against low-creature decks.
Given that the mana is pretty good for a UWR deck (all 8 fetches get you any of your duals), I think it's fine running those couple of colorless lands. I don't know that I'd go for a third with Academy Ruins though, especially when the only main deck artifact is one that likely shouldn't be there anyway.
This deck looks like a lot of fun. I'm a sucker for UWR decks anyway and I look forward to trying to fit Restoration Angel into it when I get home. Izzet Charm seemed pretty useful a number of times and I'm not sure about cutting it...I wonder if the sword and one Clique can go instead?
GBW Melira Pod WBG
BW Tokens WB
The guy who won the "second" PTQ cut the sword for another electrolyze, which was suggested by the guy won the "first" PTQ with it. If you want to cut some cards the weakest is izzet charm, followed by aven mindcensor. If you feel like you won't be playing against much pod, scapeshift, rg tron or eggs, you can put the mindcensor in the board. Mindcensor is the card you side out the most, but you want it main since it fits on curve, has flash, is evasive, and helps you in the bad match ups I mentioned. Assuming this deck becomes very popular (it's slowly starting to rise), you're probably going to want to take out some of the X/1 cards that aren't snapcaster to not get blown out by electrolyze.
I actually saw when I got home that the guy that won the "second" PTQ 3-1'd a daily yesterday by putting the Aven Mindcensors in the board (in place of Pyroclasm, which is probably overkill anyway) and putting the angels in their place.
I'm less concerned about the curve with Mindcensor since there are already 7 other 3CMC creatures in the deck (sort of, since it's multiples of two legends, but you know). I am concered about not having them main for some of those matchups, but I'm gonna give it a try for a bit and see what happens, mostly based on 1) beating a pod deck tonight 2-0 without ever seeing a Mindcensor, and 2) that the stream still showed some good play against Scapeshift without the Mindcensor in play. I can always go back to taking the Izzet Charms out if it seems bad.
GBW Melira Pod WBG
BW Tokens WB
Well the guy who won the second PTQ is testing those changes. It's not clear whether the deck needs angels, when it already won 2 PTQs back to back. More testing needs to be done to make a definitive statement.
This deck can beat pod, but it's really hard when they resolve one. Also there are some pretty bad pod players as the deck has a big decision tree, and since this geist deck is new people might not know what to do against it.
But yeah go ahead and test those changes and tell us how it goes.
Also this deck doesn't have many turn 1 plays, so you normally lead with a tapped land. Figure forces you to take 2-3 damage and/or play colonnade at a bad time.