illness in the ranks was certainly making it look like Bitterblosom was coming off but I guess lingering souls was quite a doozy they weren't done printing hate cards for.
While i think that they really printed Illness agains Souls, i think that they also plan to use it as backup to unban Blossom. But i think they want first see how Illness works before unbaning blossom.
I am not sure what types of decks people are imagining when they say there is no Agro. Mono Red and affinity are not agro? They play cheap creatures backed by burn or other reach mechanisms. Ww life gain and tokens are basically agro decks just with a few tricks added
In fact most people says "no aggro bedise affinity". Affinity is the only aggro of the format.
Mono red is more burn than aggro. lifegain and tokens falls more on midrange strategy (stabilize before going to the attack)
Aggro are generally all-out decks mainly based on creatures attacking.
I honestly do have faith that Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl will come to us within a year of announcements.
Please no Nacatl, it'd make zoo the best and only aggro deck, maybe burn would survive too.
I have just realized that the tokens deck I left behind due to losing to jund's maelstrom pulse and jund charm, and storm's speed might actually be playable again. Cheers.
Now that the doom and gloom is over and the community has begrudgingly accepted the changes and gotten back to brewing as usual, where do we go from here?
The most obvious changes are that Jund players will experiment with the 4-drop slot, some of the Jund players will migrate to BUG and Junk, and Storm will live on in a slightly slower and slightly more fragile form. Beyond that, I speculate we'll see two trends that might affect the banned list:
Players will try fast aggro and reactive control strategies to explore the metagame space that was opened up by the slowing of fast combo and lower levels of grindyness in midrange, and
Slightly slower combo decks will try to speed up to fill the fast combo role that Storm vacated.
April 29 Potential changes - initial thoughts:
Ban Watchlist
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - this card is still responsible for oppressing long-game strategies and without UR Storm - one of Tron's worst matchups - I can see a future in which Emrakul makes a very big, very annoying, very non-interactive splash in the metagame. The argument against it has always been 'but Tron doesn't win tournaments.' Prepare for that to change.
Glistener Elf - the Infect variants also kill before turn 4 regularly. If Seething Song is bannable because Storm breaks the turn 4 rule, then surely Infect is equally at risk. Take away the 1drop infect enabler and the whole deck slows down enough to see Turn 4 an overwhelming majority of the time.
Birthing Pod - Without Storm being around to force Pod decks to find ways to be interactive, I can envision a very plausible future in which this card could become a problem. It does a lot of things that WotC has previously said they hate - tutoring cheaply, forcing things into play, and being useful at almost all stages of the game - so a major bump in metagame share or win percentage for Pod-based decks could inspire WotC to take action and ban it.
More stuff from G/B Rock shell - DRS, Lily II, and/or Confidant - if any decks with the G/B rock shell still have an abnormally large metagame share in April, and Jund and BUG continue to be defining decks in Legacy, expect WotC to be unable to continue to look past its cross-format success and ban more components of the G/B/x Rock shell like they did to the UW Stoneblade shell that crossed format lines.
Potential Unbans
Ponder and/or Preordain - With Storm and Twin now in line with the Turn 4 vision of the format, these cards are no longer a threat to metagame health. I doubt Storm could win on Turn 3 anymore, even with these both in the deck, so they should be totally safe. I'm really surprised one of them didn't come off the list as a consolation to players for putting Seething Song on the list. Plus it'll help U/x control and delver tempo push back into the format.
Sword of the Meek - This card is not worse for the format than Valakut. Its just as slow, easier to disrupt, and far more mana intensive. If Valakut isn't a problem, then Sword of the Meek won't be either. Might even enable a cool Tezzerator deck.
Ancestral Vision - If the format is still suffering from blue's inability to keep up on card advantage with Dark Confidant, then Ancestral Vision stands a chance of being unbanned. Especially if Bloodbraid Elf is a long-term ban, as it will be that much harder to cast it on demand. I think its less likely than the previously mentioned cards, but weirder stuff has happened.
Please don't be so absurd with infect and glistener elf. That guy doesn't have trample. One 1-power blocker deals with him. 1 removal spell deals with him. It beats you on turn 3 only if you do nothing.
Is Infect a strong deck after these bans? Yeah. Better than for example Pod or UWr or Delver? Pretty sure it isn't.
People haven't even been sideboarding too much against the deck. Now we have simic charm which makes all this more interesting against meliras and spellskites.
Please don't be so absurd with Storm and Seething Song. One counterspell deals with it. 0 turn hexproof stuff deals with it. 1 removal spell deals with Electromance. It beats you on turn 3 only if you do nothing.
Just like Infect. If Wizards is serious about turn 4 stuff, Infect is in trouble, just like Storm was.
I said this in the previous thread. Anybody can cast Mindbreak Trap. If a person likes to play a deck that has a bad matchup against storm then they have to accept that they probably lose G1 and go to their sideboard for the next two games. That person doesn't sideboard that many cards against Storm? Then they deserve to lose to that deck. I run Chalice of the Void in my sideboard for Infect and I have MD Spellskite. On paper, it is a bad MU. Because of how I prepared for it, I like the matchup.
Please don't be so absurd with infect and glistener elf. That guy doesn't have trample. One 1-power blocker deals with him. 1 removal spell deals with him. It beats you on turn 3 only if you do nothing.
Is Infect a strong deck after these bans? Yeah. Better than for example Pod or UWr or Delver? Pretty sure it isn't.
People hasn't even been sideboarding too much against the deck. Now we have simic charm which makes all this more interesting against meliras and spellskites.
Its not absurd at all. If Turn 4 is the golden rule of the format, then decks capable of Turn 3 kills will inevitably get the attention of Wizards. Infect can be so badly disrupted by just one or two spells in the first few turns that they have to kill on the fourth turn or later regardless of how good the hand is. Storm was no different, yet Seething Song is still banned.
I'm merely pointing out that it has potential to kill on Turn 3 just like Storm, so I advocate that Glistener Elf is a card that merits being watched. Please note that its a very different stance than calling for an outright ban. I want to let the metagame sort itself out and let the numbers decide.
Comparisons to Delver and Pod - two very strong decks - are misguided. The issue is whether or not turn 3 kills are possible and how frequently they occur, not how popular or powerful they are.
Its not just being able to go off on turn 3, its being able to do it with some consistency. At least from what was given for the Seething Song ban. Dont forget they have MTGO results and games to look at also, so they have a lot of data to decide if something is consistent enough to be banned.
Yes, they get the attention of wizards, in fact Forsythe answered on twitter on this matter about infect.
He thinks what I just said, infect is not gonna beat you on turn 3 unless you did nothing because it's easy to deal with 1/1 creatures. Way easier than to deal with a bunch of instant and sorceries back to back.
I think it's even easier than with the 1/1 hexproof guys with a bunch of auras.
Emrakul, I see like banning Lightning Bolt. Yes, you'll shake up things and prompt deck changes, but is it worth it? Tron is T1, for sure, but by no means dominating.
Its not a question of dominance, tier, or how often it wins. Its about oppressing other strategies and achieving archetype diversity.
BBE - So good it forced every other G/x midrange curve-topper right out of the format because it oppresses diversity in midrange decks. Status: banned.
Nacatl - So good it forced every other aggro 1-drop right out of the format because it oppresses diversity aggro decks. Status: banned.
Emrakul do? Forces every high mana cost finisher right out of the format because it oppresses diversity in the big mana ramp decks. Status: legal?! hmmm....
When you've got a UW ramp and a GR ramp deck playing the same finisher when there are a plethora of much more interesting but clearly worse alternatives sitting in the binder that are 100% unplayable by comparison, the format has a diversity problem. And Wizards hates diversity problems enough to ban stuff. Its not a big enough problem right now for a ban to be necessary, but its clearly worth monitoring going forward.
I can agree on your position about Emrakul. It is disturbing to ban a 15 mana creature though. My main reason would be it keeps control easily out of the format. But on the other hand it could prove to be a good protection of the format against an eventual domination of control. Hard to say.
Its not just being able to go off on turn 3, its being able to do it with some consistency. At least from what was given for the Seething Song ban. Dont forget they have MTGO results and games to look at also, so they have a lot of data to decide if something is consistent enough to be banned.
Wizards never revealed exactly what consistency it took to get it banned though. Exactly just how consistent it must be to count as 'frequent' is the tantamount question in this matter. My experiences say Infect and Epic Experiment storm were comparably quick and comparably disruptable, but if you can provide data that suggests otherwise, it would be very relevant to the discussion.
Please no Nacatl, it'd make zoo the best and only aggro deck, maybe burn would survive too.
Well, currently there is no aggro beside affinity. Burn decks are far from being aggro, since they're more spell driven than creature driven.
With Jund and Storm being weakened, better some aggro rise. Otherwise Nacatl must be back.
I bet a lot of people miss the aggro simple way of dealing with things:
1. Cast creatures
2. Turn creatures sideways
3. ????
4. Profit
Its not absurd at all. If Turn 4 is the golden rule of the format, then decks capable of Turn 3 kills will inevitably get the attention of Wizards. Infect can be so badly disrupted by just one or two spells in the first few turns that they have to kill on the fourth turn or later regardless of how good the hand is. Storm was no different, yet Seething Song is still banned.
Not saying that infect don't deserve to be axed. But they're FAR different.
Infect rely on a single creature on the deck to make a kill before turn 4. And have many ways of interacting wit it. Basically they need a god hand and hope that the opponent do nothing to try to pull a T2/T3 kill. A single drop 1 and there goes your chance.
Storm on the other hand is totally non-interactive and needed a dedicated sideboarding to be dealt with. The starting hand matters little as long it's "keepable" (IE.: 2-3 lands, 2-3 draws)
But yes, the elf deserves to be on the watch list.
I said this in the previous thread. Anybody can cast Mindbreak Trap.
Yes they can, but storm is the deck with one of the worst options for sideboard against. Most sideboard for storm are narrow cards that works only against storm.
If you're expecting a very diversified meta you might need to heavily hurt some other matchups to protect against storm.
Please don't be so absurd with Storm and Seething Song. One counterspell deals with it. 0 turn hexproof stuff deals with it. 1 removal spell deals with Electromance. It beats you on turn 3 only if you do nothing.
What include actually not playing at all. If the player cross their arms and don't build his board to have mana open to protect himself against surprise T3 storm, his oponent will simply hold their hand and wait until him tap to cast something or acumulate resources enough to storm again even if they get disrupted.
Don't mention that only white (canonist, silence, thalia...) and blue (counters) have most decent resources against storm. Eletromancer, until song ban, wasn't really need for the deck to work, so removal probably would be irrelevant (the fun part is that now it changed, since people must run eletromancer to make up for Song)
Obviously, people can include 4 Mindbreaker Trap and 4 canonist on their sideboard. But then they spend 8 sideboard slots for a single deck...
Its not a question of dominance, tier, or how often it wins. Its about oppressing other strategies and achieving archetype diversity.
BBE - So good it forced every other G/x midrange curve-topper right out of the format because it oppresses diversity in midrange decks. Status: banned.
Nacatl - So good it forced every other aggro 1-drop right out of the format because it oppresses diversity aggro decks. Status: banned.
Emrakul do? Forces every high mana cost finisher right out of the format because it oppresses diversity in the big mana ramp decks. Status: legal?! hmmm....
When you've got a UW ramp and a GR ramp deck playing the same finisher when there are a plethora of much more interesting but clearly worse alternatives sitting in the binder that are 100% unplayable by comparison, the format has a diversity problem. And Wizards hates diversity problems enough to ban stuff. Its not a big enough problem right now for a ban to be necessary, but its clearly worth monitoring going forward.
Before I get into a rational discussion (per the mods request) of the current banned list and what I feel could come off, I'd like to comment on the above.
There is always going to be a best card. You remove one card and something is going to take its place unless everything else in that slot is junk. When that happens, you kill an entire archetype. Now the banning of BBE isn't going to do that. Mid range is still more than viable. But the banning of Nactl did not create more aggro decks. It was an abysmal failure simply because there was nothing to take its place. So people said the heck with it. We'll play something else. Calling a deck aggro when it clearly isn't doesn't make it so.
Having said that, here are my picks for possible future take offs from the list.
Ancestral Visions - If I was going to have a draft, this would be my number 1. Blue based control has abysmal card draw with Ponder and Preordain banned. I'm not asking for them to come off. There would be no point. It's not going to happen. But certainly Visions, at this point, can. I predict at the next announcement, this card will no longer be banned.
Wild Nactl - As I said up top, this banning has been an abysmal failure. It did not achieve what it set out to do. Aggro is woefully represented in Modern. This card needs to come off. It won't though, which is sad.
Chrome Mox - Honestly, I don't really care if they take this off or not at this point. It might help control a bit but could cause other problems. Quite honestly, my views on this card are, unless you're playing it for fast mana in some kind of combo or storm deck, it's so-so. It's card disadvantage having to discard something, which is not really something Control wants to do. So this really helps storm and other combo decks more. With the banning of Seething Song, maybe unbanning this card defeats the purpose slightly. Not sure. Like I said, don't care either way but it is a slight possibility that this card COULD come off. I'm sure both side of this argument can come up with compelling reasons pro and con. Whatever. Don't really care enough.
That's it. The rest of the list isn't going anywhere. I can see that now. I've made my peace with the direction WotC is taking Modern. As others have said, it's their sandbox and they're letting us play in it.
Calling it now. Next banned announcement, Visions comes off and possibly Emrakul goes on. Like somebody else pointed out, there is just nothing better and lots of big creatures are sitting in a binder. So don't run out and pick up your playset just yet folks.
Well, with Storm getting hosed pretty thoroughly, and Jund getting a slap on the wrist (Oh look, there's Huntmaster of the Fells, Olivia Voldaren, Falkenrath Aristocrat, and Thragtusk all waiting in the wings and they're all in roughly the same ball park as BBe...) it looks like we're going to see even more Jund for a while. Kinda surprised not to see Deathrite Shaman on the chopping block, given that I see him in just about every deck I play against these days. I wouldn't be surprised to see Goryo's Vengeance on the chopping block either- it does enable several turn 2 kill sequences with Griselbrand, Gisela, and the Spaghetti Monster. It's also easy to just drop the combo into a normal Burn shell. Sure, one well timed Surgical stops it, but turn 2 and 3 kills are fairly common with the deck.
There is no reasoning or facts to this post. It's spam. t_c
I can agree on your position about Emrakul. It is disturbing to ban a 15 mana creature though. My main reason would be it keeps control easily out of the format. But on the other hand it could prove to be a good protection of the format against an eventual domination of control. Hard to say.
Funny you say that, it is very hard to beat Emrakul as a control deck, I was testing Teachings vs RG Tron and found Tron is inevitably favored due to Emrakul, Karn, Wurmcoil, and Titan are easy to deal with, but Emrakul is impossible
Granted these same decks lose to Ghost Quarter + Surgical on a Tron land
Not advocating banning the Flying Spaghetti Monster as these ramp style decks should have inevitability or some end game
As for Glistner Elf, yes Infect can win on turn 3 not sure how consistently, bur it can occur
T1: Forest, Elf
T2: Forest, Rancor, +4 pump
T3: game
Infect is a Stompy deck though so it loses to most removal, besides MBI is better anyway
Private Mod Note
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
Never say never but I'd bet there's a 99% chance it won't be banned.
If the deck begins to dominate it will, people dislike Infect a lot as people dislike Storm and Dredge
Cards I think are going to unbanned soon:
Golgari Grave-Troll: look over my posts in the previous thread I have stated multiple times that this is safe so long as they don't unban Dread Return
Chrome Mox/Sword Of The Meek: Speeds up control/gives it a finisher, the combo is also hosed by the new Token hoser from GTC similar to Bitterblossom
I think those would increase enough of the power level in the format without bringing in decks that will dominate the meta
Private Mod Note
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
Wizards never revealed exactly what consistency it took to get it banned though. Exactly just how consistent it must be to count as 'frequent' is the tantamount question in this matter. My experiences say Infect and Epic Experiment storm were comparably quick and comparably disruptable, but if you can provide data that suggests otherwise, it would be very relevant to the discussion.
And Wotc doesnt have to tell us what their idea of too consistent is. We play in their sandbox. They set the parameters of the format, not us. Wotc has all the data, something we dont have.
Unbans,
Kitty should be unbanned, everyone knows it was pfire that was the problem not kitty, but unbanning kitty now puts egg on Wotc's face. Too soon to come off.
Would love to see GGT and/or Dread return unbanned, but too many dislike Dredge. I dont ever seeing these come off.
Chrome Mox, It speed the entire format up, not just one aspect. If control speeds up, combo and aggro have to adjust to keep their edge. Maybe some day when the format is more matured, but not any time soon.
I would be fine if the unbanned Sword of the meek if they banned Thopter foundry. But they should never be allowed together, ever again.
And Wotc doesnt have to tell us what their idea of too consistent is. We play in their sandbox. They set the parameters of the format, not us. Wotc has all the data, something we dont have.
I am so confused by your mentality. Without customers Wizards could not exist, and there is no reason to avoid questioning the decisions that Wizards makes. Wizards isn't legally obligated to reveal its private data to us, but arguing that that magic is their "sandbox" therefore we shouldn't ask is incredibly bizarre. Players who care concerned about the recent bannings should absolutely insist on transparency and consistency.
I am so confused by your mentality. Without customers Wizards could not exist, and there is no reason to avoid questioning the decisions that Wizards makes. Wizards isn't legally obligated to reveal its private data to us, but arguing that that magic is their "sandbox" therefore we shouldn't ask is incredibly bizarre. Players who care concerned about the recent bannings should absolutely insist on transparency and consistency.
It comes down to, do you like the format or not. If you do, play and adjust as needed, if you dont, move on. I disagree with you about transparency. Wotc and Hasbro are private companies. They dont owe anyone anything. They make a game, everyone have the choice to play it or not.
be certain that Infect is being closely watched right now. its basically last-man-standing for decks that can credibly win on turn 3.
we don't know what the triggering conditions for dropping the banhammer actually are, but it probably has alot to do with crossing a threshold in terms of consistency. just making up numbers now, it might be fine for a deck to win on turn 3 5% of the time, but at 7% of the time its too much and the banhammer comes down.
it doesn't matter what the actual competitiveness of the deck is in the metagame either. every deck can be suppressed and made unplayable if people play enough hate. they're really just measuring the goldfish kill speed here.
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I honestly do have faith that Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl will come to us within a year of announcements.
In fact most people says "no aggro bedise affinity". Affinity is the only aggro of the format.
Mono red is more burn than aggro. lifegain and tokens falls more on midrange strategy (stabilize before going to the attack)
Aggro are generally all-out decks mainly based on creatures attacking.
Please no Nacatl, it'd make zoo the best and only aggro deck, maybe burn would survive too.
I have just realized that the tokens deck I left behind due to losing to jund's maelstrom pulse and jund charm, and storm's speed might actually be playable again. Cheers.
The most obvious changes are that Jund players will experiment with the 4-drop slot, some of the Jund players will migrate to BUG and Junk, and Storm will live on in a slightly slower and slightly more fragile form. Beyond that, I speculate we'll see two trends that might affect the banned list:
April 29 Potential changes - initial thoughts:
Ban Watchlist
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - this card is still responsible for oppressing long-game strategies and without UR Storm - one of Tron's worst matchups - I can see a future in which Emrakul makes a very big, very annoying, very non-interactive splash in the metagame. The argument against it has always been 'but Tron doesn't win tournaments.' Prepare for that to change.
Glistener Elf - the Infect variants also kill before turn 4 regularly. If Seething Song is bannable because Storm breaks the turn 4 rule, then surely Infect is equally at risk. Take away the 1drop infect enabler and the whole deck slows down enough to see Turn 4 an overwhelming majority of the time.
Birthing Pod - Without Storm being around to force Pod decks to find ways to be interactive, I can envision a very plausible future in which this card could become a problem. It does a lot of things that WotC has previously said they hate - tutoring cheaply, forcing things into play, and being useful at almost all stages of the game - so a major bump in metagame share or win percentage for Pod-based decks could inspire WotC to take action and ban it.
More stuff from G/B Rock shell - DRS, Lily II, and/or Confidant - if any decks with the G/B rock shell still have an abnormally large metagame share in April, and Jund and BUG continue to be defining decks in Legacy, expect WotC to be unable to continue to look past its cross-format success and ban more components of the G/B/x Rock shell like they did to the UW Stoneblade shell that crossed format lines.
Potential Unbans
Ponder and/or Preordain - With Storm and Twin now in line with the Turn 4 vision of the format, these cards are no longer a threat to metagame health. I doubt Storm could win on Turn 3 anymore, even with these both in the deck, so they should be totally safe. I'm really surprised one of them didn't come off the list as a consolation to players for putting Seething Song on the list. Plus it'll help U/x control and delver tempo push back into the format.
Sword of the Meek - This card is not worse for the format than Valakut. Its just as slow, easier to disrupt, and far more mana intensive. If Valakut isn't a problem, then Sword of the Meek won't be either. Might even enable a cool Tezzerator deck.
Ancestral Vision - If the format is still suffering from blue's inability to keep up on card advantage with Dark Confidant, then Ancestral Vision stands a chance of being unbanned. Especially if Bloodbraid Elf is a long-term ban, as it will be that much harder to cast it on demand. I think its less likely than the previously mentioned cards, but weirder stuff has happened.
Speculate less. Test more.
Is Infect a strong deck after these bans? Yeah. Better than for example Pod or UWr or Delver? Pretty sure it isn't.
People haven't even been sideboarding too much against the deck. Now we have simic charm which makes all this more interesting against meliras and spellskites.
I said this in the previous thread. Anybody can cast Mindbreak Trap. If a person likes to play a deck that has a bad matchup against storm then they have to accept that they probably lose G1 and go to their sideboard for the next two games. That person doesn't sideboard that many cards against Storm? Then they deserve to lose to that deck. I run Chalice of the Void in my sideboard for Infect and I have MD Spellskite. On paper, it is a bad MU. Because of how I prepared for it, I like the matchup.
URU/R TempoRU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-counterburn-26-10-13-1/
Standard:
RBB/R MadnessBR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-07-16-imI-br-vampires/
Caleb Durward:
Its not absurd at all. If Turn 4 is the golden rule of the format, then decks capable of Turn 3 kills will inevitably get the attention of Wizards. Infect can be so badly disrupted by just one or two spells in the first few turns that they have to kill on the fourth turn or later regardless of how good the hand is. Storm was no different, yet Seething Song is still banned.
I'm merely pointing out that it has potential to kill on Turn 3 just like Storm, so I advocate that Glistener Elf is a card that merits being watched. Please note that its a very different stance than calling for an outright ban. I want to let the metagame sort itself out and let the numbers decide.
Comparisons to Delver and Pod - two very strong decks - are misguided. The issue is whether or not turn 3 kills are possible and how frequently they occur, not how popular or powerful they are.
Speculate less. Test more.
He thinks what I just said, infect is not gonna beat you on turn 3 unless you did nothing because it's easy to deal with 1/1 creatures. Way easier than to deal with a bunch of instant and sorceries back to back.
I think it's even easier than with the 1/1 hexproof guys with a bunch of auras.
Its not a question of dominance, tier, or how often it wins. Its about oppressing other strategies and achieving archetype diversity.
BBE - So good it forced every other G/x midrange curve-topper right out of the format because it oppresses diversity in midrange decks. Status: banned.
Nacatl - So good it forced every other aggro 1-drop right out of the format because it oppresses diversity aggro decks. Status: banned.
Emrakul do? Forces every high mana cost finisher right out of the format because it oppresses diversity in the big mana ramp decks. Status: legal?! hmmm....
When you've got a UW ramp and a GR ramp deck playing the same finisher when there are a plethora of much more interesting but clearly worse alternatives sitting in the binder that are 100% unplayable by comparison, the format has a diversity problem. And Wizards hates diversity problems enough to ban stuff. Its not a big enough problem right now for a ban to be necessary, but its clearly worth monitoring going forward.
Speculate less. Test more.
Wizards never revealed exactly what consistency it took to get it banned though. Exactly just how consistent it must be to count as 'frequent' is the tantamount question in this matter. My experiences say Infect and Epic Experiment storm were comparably quick and comparably disruptable, but if you can provide data that suggests otherwise, it would be very relevant to the discussion.
Speculate less. Test more.
With Jund and Storm being weakened, better some aggro rise. Otherwise Nacatl must be back.
I bet a lot of people miss the aggro simple way of dealing with things:
1. Cast creatures
2. Turn creatures sideways
3. ????
4. Profit
Not saying that infect don't deserve to be axed. But they're FAR different.
Infect rely on a single creature on the deck to make a kill before turn 4. And have many ways of interacting wit it. Basically they need a god hand and hope that the opponent do nothing to try to pull a T2/T3 kill. A single drop 1 and there goes your chance.
Storm on the other hand is totally non-interactive and needed a dedicated sideboarding to be dealt with. The starting hand matters little as long it's "keepable" (IE.: 2-3 lands, 2-3 draws)
But yes, the elf deserves to be on the watch list.
Yes they can, but storm is the deck with one of the worst options for sideboard against. Most sideboard for storm are narrow cards that works only against storm.
If you're expecting a very diversified meta you might need to heavily hurt some other matchups to protect against storm.
What include actually not playing at all. If the player cross their arms and don't build his board to have mana open to protect himself against surprise T3 storm, his oponent will simply hold their hand and wait until him tap to cast something or acumulate resources enough to storm again even if they get disrupted.
Don't mention that only white (canonist, silence, thalia...) and blue (counters) have most decent resources against storm. Eletromancer, until song ban, wasn't really need for the deck to work, so removal probably would be irrelevant (the fun part is that now it changed, since people must run eletromancer to make up for Song)
Obviously, people can include 4 Mindbreaker Trap and 4 canonist on their sideboard. But then they spend 8 sideboard slots for a single deck...
Before I get into a rational discussion (per the mods request) of the current banned list and what I feel could come off, I'd like to comment on the above.
There is always going to be a best card. You remove one card and something is going to take its place unless everything else in that slot is junk. When that happens, you kill an entire archetype. Now the banning of BBE isn't going to do that. Mid range is still more than viable. But the banning of Nactl did not create more aggro decks. It was an abysmal failure simply because there was nothing to take its place. So people said the heck with it. We'll play something else. Calling a deck aggro when it clearly isn't doesn't make it so.
Having said that, here are my picks for possible future take offs from the list.
Ancestral Visions - If I was going to have a draft, this would be my number 1. Blue based control has abysmal card draw with Ponder and Preordain banned. I'm not asking for them to come off. There would be no point. It's not going to happen. But certainly Visions, at this point, can. I predict at the next announcement, this card will no longer be banned.
Wild Nactl - As I said up top, this banning has been an abysmal failure. It did not achieve what it set out to do. Aggro is woefully represented in Modern. This card needs to come off. It won't though, which is sad.
Golgari Grave-Troll or Dread Return - One of these needs to come off. Dredge is unplayable. End of discussion.
Chrome Mox - Honestly, I don't really care if they take this off or not at this point. It might help control a bit but could cause other problems. Quite honestly, my views on this card are, unless you're playing it for fast mana in some kind of combo or storm deck, it's so-so. It's card disadvantage having to discard something, which is not really something Control wants to do. So this really helps storm and other combo decks more. With the banning of Seething Song, maybe unbanning this card defeats the purpose slightly. Not sure. Like I said, don't care either way but it is a slight possibility that this card COULD come off. I'm sure both side of this argument can come up with compelling reasons pro and con. Whatever. Don't really care enough.
That's it. The rest of the list isn't going anywhere. I can see that now. I've made my peace with the direction WotC is taking Modern. As others have said, it's their sandbox and they're letting us play in it.
Calling it now. Next banned announcement, Visions comes off and possibly Emrakul goes on. Like somebody else pointed out, there is just nothing better and lots of big creatures are sitting in a binder. So don't run out and pick up your playset just yet folks.
There is no reasoning or facts to this post. It's spam. t_c
Funny you say that, it is very hard to beat Emrakul as a control deck, I was testing Teachings vs RG Tron and found Tron is inevitably favored due to Emrakul, Karn, Wurmcoil, and Titan are easy to deal with, but Emrakul is impossible
Granted these same decks lose to Ghost Quarter + Surgical on a Tron land
Not advocating banning the Flying Spaghetti Monster as these ramp style decks should have inevitability or some end game
As for Glistner Elf, yes Infect can win on turn 3 not sure how consistently, bur it can occur
T1: Forest, Elf
T2: Forest, Rancor, +4 pump
T3: game
Infect is a Stompy deck though so it loses to most removal, besides MBI is better anyway
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
If the deck begins to dominate it will, people dislike Infect a lot as people dislike Storm and Dredge
Cards I think are going to unbanned soon:
Golgari Grave-Troll: look over my posts in the previous thread I have stated multiple times that this is safe so long as they don't unban Dread Return
Chrome Mox/Sword Of The Meek: Speeds up control/gives it a finisher, the combo is also hosed by the new Token hoser from GTC similar to Bitterblossom
I think those would increase enough of the power level in the format without bringing in decks that will dominate the meta
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
And Wotc doesnt have to tell us what their idea of too consistent is. We play in their sandbox. They set the parameters of the format, not us. Wotc has all the data, something we dont have.
Unbans,
Kitty should be unbanned, everyone knows it was pfire that was the problem not kitty, but unbanning kitty now puts egg on Wotc's face. Too soon to come off.
Would love to see GGT and/or Dread return unbanned, but too many dislike Dredge. I dont ever seeing these come off.
Chrome Mox, It speed the entire format up, not just one aspect. If control speeds up, combo and aggro have to adjust to keep their edge. Maybe some day when the format is more matured, but not any time soon.
I would be fine if the unbanned Sword of the meek if they banned Thopter foundry. But they should never be allowed together, ever again.
I am so confused by your mentality. Without customers Wizards could not exist, and there is no reason to avoid questioning the decisions that Wizards makes. Wizards isn't legally obligated to reveal its private data to us, but arguing that that magic is their "sandbox" therefore we shouldn't ask is incredibly bizarre. Players who care concerned about the recent bannings should absolutely insist on transparency and consistency.
It comes down to, do you like the format or not. If you do, play and adjust as needed, if you dont, move on. I disagree with you about transparency. Wotc and Hasbro are private companies. They dont owe anyone anything. They make a game, everyone have the choice to play it or not.
we don't know what the triggering conditions for dropping the banhammer actually are, but it probably has alot to do with crossing a threshold in terms of consistency. just making up numbers now, it might be fine for a deck to win on turn 3 5% of the time, but at 7% of the time its too much and the banhammer comes down.
it doesn't matter what the actual competitiveness of the deck is in the metagame either. every deck can be suppressed and made unplayable if people play enough hate. they're really just measuring the goldfish kill speed here.