I don't necessarily hate people who play Eggs, but I question their moral fiber based on what they find fun. I play a d-bag infinite combo deck in Modern too, but because it's creature-based, decks can actually interact with it game 1, making for more entertaining gameplay. The Seething Song ban I didn't quite get at first, but I guess Storm broke the turn-4 rule with too much consistency. I guess the lesson to be learned here is: make decks with the banhammer in mind. It's what I did when I made Pod instead of Jund.
that's fine to say(i play eggs because i'm on a budget), but i might get pod now, oh well
I think unfair to the player base to keep them guessing on what is going to be next to be felled ban hammer. I know real people who were very pro modern, who quit because their decks were banned, who have lost trust in the format. They built decks, invested in them and had them banned and are left with a feeling of anger. That's a hard way to make fans.
I would say if you are guessing what Wotc was going to do, you either dont play competitive Modern or dont pay attention to competitive Modern. Every banning was seen coming except Seething Song by those who are involved in the format.
Quote from tomthumb »
As I said before, people will not accept constant bannings. They will just quit playing the format.
This is a new era of Magic. What once kept players away from a format, like bannings, doesnt hurt the newer player base like it use to.
This is a new era of Magic. What once kept players away from a format, like bannings, doesnt hurt the newer player base like it use to.
Recent attendance numbers say you are wrong.
You say that until the deck you're playing has a major card banned. I've played three modern decks so far. All three have had a card banned within weeks of me picking up the deck.
You say that until the deck you're playing has a major card banned. I've played three modern decks so far. All three have had a card banned within weeks of me picking up the deck.
How do you pay for your cards?
How often do you play?
Do you have the funds RIGHT NOW to buy a new deck?
Competitive teir one decks cost hundreds of dollars. You can't expect people to keep shelling out that kind of money every time one of them rises as cream of the crop. And they will flock to the deck that rises because players like playing the best deck.
As I stated, this is arguably the one problem that plague's Wizards strategy of bannings. And I feel this will resolve itself as people learn what kinds of cards Wizards will ban, and as Wizards learns to be quicker with the ban hammer.
Writing is on the wall, Wizards really isn't interested in unbanning any cards at this stage. And Second Sunrise isn't the last card to be banned. Just saying.
I know a guy who built storm, then after bannings he build eggs, now after the bans he's pretty skeptical about the format
I know another guy who has foils signed second sunrise. He just rage quit modern.
The list of casualties grows, and I mean players not just cards hitting the banned list.
Until some new card that doesn't exist warps the format, is hazard to say that this will be the last card to ban for a while. Like their methods or not, you have to admit Modern as a whole is at a pretty healthy place at the moment.
Personally, I think that Valakut coming off the banned list had more to do with someone who was close to the DCI committee campaigning very aggressively for their pet deck.
I have no proof, only speculation
This is a VERY unfair claim to make with no evidence. There is no reason whatsoever to suspect this other than to try and baselessly support some absurd claim that Wizards isn't interested in making Modern a good format (which is very much in their best interests).
I would expect more unbannings as the format stabilizes again. Making unbannings to an already unstable format is a terrible idea.
As I stated, this is arguably the one problem that plague's Wizards strategy of bannings. And I feel this will resolve itself as people learn what kinds of cards Wizards will ban, and as Wizards learns to be quicker with the ban hammer.
It's far more likely that people will just stop playing the format, I don't know how you can't see that. You and bocephus are living in a dream world.
People are over reacting. Will we see more bans in the future? Sure, but the frequency will go down as the format matures. Eventually we'll get to a point where the meta will stabilize and the only bans will come from interactions with new cards that they didn't anticipate, or underestimate.
Patience is a lot to ask for I know, and there's room for this discussion but you have to take a longer view of the format to understand why wizards is doing what they're doing with the banned list.
I just want to say that this is a bold statement. There is nothing to suggest that the banning frequencies will go down. Two announcements in a row there have been bannings. And Modern has had more bannings than basically any other format recently.
Wizards got a lot of lee way earlier because "New Format Infancy Blah Blah Blah." But how long can you use that excuse. Modern has had many large tournaments already, an established meta game, and STILL has frequent bannings. How much time are you going to give them before you get sick of it?
What can I say? I hate the deck, and I think anybody who plays it is a sadist as well as possibly a masochist. I'm entitled to my opinion. As far as your opinion of the Modern format and its advocates, I can see by your signature you're a Legacy player, so your opinion of the Modern format isn't surprising? Did it ever occur to you that some players like Modern because it ISN'T like Legacy? That some players actually think the recent focus on creatures has made for a more enjoyable game?
1) This isn't a fair look at legacy, as legacy is for the most part a creature format now.
2) It is not a good model of business to keep chasing away players who like playing engine combo type decks. This is basically Wizards saying "Screw You Johnnies. How dare you find cool and interesting interactions with the game?" Yes some combos still exist, but no more engine combos.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
It's far more likely that people will just stop playing the format, I don't know how you can't see that. You and bocephus are living in a dream world.
It seems Wotc is aiming Modern at a certain play group. It is possible they see that play group buying new decks regularly so they feel bannings (changing of decks) wont bother that group much. I could see this thinking especially if they are trying to draw in the Standard crowd. Most Standard players are already use to changing decks quite often. Its only the old time Legacy/Vintage players that buy 1 deck and play it for years.
I really dont think as many as you feel will stop playing. Time will tell.
Quote from TheDasuri »
2) It is not a good model of business to keep chasing away players who like playing engine combo type decks. This is basically Wizards saying "Screw You Johnnies. How dare you find cool and interesting interactions with the game?" Yes some combos still exist, but no more engine combos.
If combo players had no format to fall back on, I would agree with you. But there are formats where combo is alive and well. If a player is going to quit because they can play combo in one format but not all, then they were looking for a reason to quit in my opinion.
Modern combo has to fall with in the guidelines of the format. If the deck is not with in those guidelines, it will get nerfed. There are plenty of combo decks that fall with in the guidelines of the format.
yeah, that's some non-rotating format you got there.
Why must all non-rotating formats be the same? Seems boring to me. Different formats, different concepts. Seems you are looking for Modern to be a lot more like Legacy then you want to admit.
yeah, that's some non-rotating format you got there.
It should be important at this point to note that while Modern very well may be "non-rotating", WotC has said time and time again that it is NOT "Eternal" like Legacy or Vintage.
Why must all non-rotating formats be the same? Seems boring to me. Different formats, different concepts. Seems you are looking for Modern to be a lot more like Legacy then you want to admit.
do you forget who you talk to and just repeat whatever you want to repeat?
the point of a non-rotating format is that you don't have to switch decks every few months. the point of modern is so the cards that rotate out of standard are not obsolete in a shoebox somewhere. the point of modern is to keep the players who have been playing standard for the last few years in the game if they don't want to keep dropping money on decks. that is the appeal of a non-rotating format. there is no appeal to a non-rotating format that forces you to switch decks every few months by an artificial means.
@silvortal, did i say it was eternal? a ton of people don't even know the difference between a non-rotating format and an eternal format. if it was eternal, the format would be vastly different from what it is like now.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
do you forget who you talk to and just repeat whatever you want to repeat?
the point of a non-rotating format is that you don't have to switch decks every few months. the point of modern is so the cards that rotate out of standard are not obsolete in a shoebox somewhere. the point of modern is to keep the players who have been playing standard for the last few years in the game if they don't want to keep dropping money on decks. that is the appeal of a non-rotating format. there is no appeal to a non-rotating format that forces you to switch decks every few months by an artificial means.
@silvortal, did i say it was eternal? a ton of people don't even know the difference between a non-rotating format and an eternal format. if it was eternal, the format would be vastly different from what it is like now.
I'd argue that players won't need to "keep switching decks every few months" though. Modern's in a really healthy place right now, and I don't see any cards that are currently in the meta getting banned. Rather, I see some cards getting unbanned, and cards only getting banned if and when cards in future sets create broken decks or facilitate decks in becoming broken. And when that happens, I argue it will be fairly obvious based off of previous bannings.
And when I said that "Modern isn't Eternal", I meant that it is not only different in function from Vintage and Legacy, but also different in spirit. Modern is much more a "living format". Unlike Legacy, where the meta stays largely the same after each successive block release (perhaps adapting a few choice cards to preexisting decks, or seeing 1 or 2 new decks), Modern is a format that may change wildly based off new set releases (or yes, even bannings or unbannings). And that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
I'd argue that players won't need to "keep switching decks every few months" though. Modern's in a really healthy place right now, and I don't see any cards that are currently in the meta getting banned. Rather, I see some cards getting unbanned, and cards only getting banned if and when cards in future sets create broken decks or facilitate decks in becoming broken. And when that happens, I argue it will be fairly obvious based off of previous bannings.
And when I said that "Modern isn't Eternal", I meant that it is not only different in function from Vintage and Legacy, but also different in spirit. Modern is much more a "living format". Unlike Legacy, where the meta stays largely the same after each successive block release (perhaps adapting a few choice cards to preexisting decks, or seeing 1 or 2 new decks), Modern is a format that may change wildly based off new set releases (or yes, even bannings or unbannings). And that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
i would hope i'm wrong with the switching decks every few months. but our current two data points say that if your deck is performing better than par for the course, something will be banned from it. do i think this is true? maybe. i hope it isn't. i would much rather be "forced" to pick up a new deck because they unbanned something that i want to play more than my current bunch of decks.
eternal has a legitimate meaning in that essentially all printed cards that aren't from un- sets or banned or restricted in those formats can be played legally in sanctioned events for those formats. not so much a more dynamic format. by its card pool, modern will be more dynamic (because the cards are weaker), but every new set release won't necessarily bring new decks or dynamic shifts. only when they severely push the power level of some cards will shifts happen, and more often than not, those same shifts will be felt in legacy. see: abrupt decay and deathrite shaman. unless a card is printed that can compete with the cream of the crop, it probably won't see play in legacy. it may see play in modern, because they've essentially banned all the broken cards and the half the best cards (yet unexplainably, left the other powerful half in the pool...)
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
i would hope i'm wrong with the switching decks every few months. but our current two data points say that if your deck is performing better than par for the course, something will be banned from it. do i think this is true? maybe. i hope it isn't. i would much rather be "forced" to pick up a new deck because they unbanned something that i want to play more than my current bunch of decks.
eternal has a legitimate meaning in that essentially all printed cards that aren't from un- sets or banned or restricted in those formats can be played legally in sanctioned events for those formats. not so much a more dynamic format. by its card pool, modern will be more dynamic (because the cards are weaker), but every new set release won't necessarily bring new decks or dynamic shifts. only when they severely push the power level of some cards will shifts happen, and more often than not, those same shifts will be felt in legacy. see: abrupt decay and deathrite shaman. unless a card is printed that can compete with the cream of the crop, it probably won't see play in legacy. it may see play in modern, because they've essentially banned all the broken cards and the half the best cards (yet unexplainably, left the other powerful half in the pool...)
I mean, I don't think any players could be complaining about the Bloodbraid Elf banning. While Jund specifically may not be as overpowering as it once was, the GB/X shell is still arguably the best shell in the format. Eggs ban was a long way coming, and almost everyone saw that. And it was pretty much a surgical banning of the one deck. The Seething Song ban took people a little by surprise, but again, this was a surgical banning of the one specific deck. While it may have also had impacts on Breach decks, Breach decks (which also run Goryo's Vengeance now) are still very playable.
I feel it's a little broad to say that Wizards just bans "the best decks" as they come about. From what I have felt, their bannings have been pretty well thought out.
I do agree that there may be cards on the banned list that are artifacts of a time when they were more broken (or perceived as more broken) than they are now. This was certainly the case with Valakut. But again, I applaud Wizards on being very careful with how they unban cards, so they won't have to immediately ban them again. That would be infinitely worse for the format in terms of stability than simply just banning cards in general.
I'd argue that players won't need to "keep switching decks every few months" though.
Wait til I Turn 2 quadruple Primeval Titan into a Banefire for 20+ damage...
Eggs was a perfectly FAIR deck, the only players who usually dragged the games out longer were people who had little-no experience playing the deck.
Eggs ban was NOT healthy, it represented a very SMALL percentage of the meta, it wasn't really hurting anyone, just because ONE guy was acting like a total child, "Honest guy honest creatures" yeah, if I recall, he WON that game acting like a child the entire way through... Normally, i'm fine with his behaviour, but the way he acted against that eggs player... terrible.
I'm sure the rest of the community must have apparently felt the same way beating eggs like Kiblar, eh? "I won, but i'm going to act like a dick anyways."
Eggs wasn't unbeatable, and btw, if someone's taking a bit too long to play, tell them to speed up or you're calling a judge... how hard is that?
Also, how is an aggro/midrange only format healthy? it screams unstable to me that ANYTHING that stops aggro/midrange gets banned.
Aggro stomps control, combo stomps aggro, control stomps combo.
Twould seem WotC has forgotten the magic Triangle formula for their Modern Management.
There are simply some decks that don't exist mainly because they were prematurely banned or banned for the wrong reasons...
It was NOT a healthy ban to ban Second Sunrise.
Banning one of the only decks in the format that could possibly beat aggro other than OTHER AGGRO decks is not healthy, it shows wotc only wants aggro/midrange and doesn't want people to be able to play decent standard decks from years ago, Honestly, this time I just got so fed up with it.
I've dismantled my modern deck. Aggro mirrors aren't my definition of fun. and simply dismantling any combo left in modern isn't fun, it feels like i'm playing Solitaire... Sound familiar? I'm set to kill by Turn 3, they're still trying to set up... I'm playing solitaire with an aggro deck at that point... I refuse to constantly apologize for playing the deck that fits my personality (Affinity with a combo-twist).
Modern was something I was all for at the announcement, a non-rotating format without the crippling effects of the reserved list.
It has completely deviated from what it was announced to be, it was supposed to be somewhere where old standard decks could grow into something awesome. not just CURRENT standard decks with a couple old cards in it...
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The Banned thread is now back opened. This thread will be closed and we will go back to using the rule that banned talk must use the official thread only. Please continue here.
that's fine to say(i play eggs because i'm on a budget), but i might get pod now, oh well
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
I would say if you are guessing what Wotc was going to do, you either dont play competitive Modern or dont pay attention to competitive Modern. Every banning was seen coming except Seething Song by those who are involved in the format.
This is a new era of Magic. What once kept players away from a format, like bannings, doesnt hurt the newer player base like it use to.
Recent attendance numbers say you are wrong.
You say that until the deck you're playing has a major card banned. I've played three modern decks so far. All three have had a card banned within weeks of me picking up the deck.
lemme guess, Jund, Eggs, and Storm?
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
As I stated, this is arguably the one problem that plague's Wizards strategy of bannings. And I feel this will resolve itself as people learn what kinds of cards Wizards will ban, and as Wizards learns to be quicker with the ban hammer.
Until some new card that doesn't exist warps the format, is hazard to say that this will be the last card to ban for a while. Like their methods or not, you have to admit Modern as a whole is at a pretty healthy place at the moment.
This is a VERY unfair claim to make with no evidence. There is no reason whatsoever to suspect this other than to try and baselessly support some absurd claim that Wizards isn't interested in making Modern a good format (which is very much in their best interests).
I would expect more unbannings as the format stabilizes again. Making unbannings to an already unstable format is a terrible idea.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
I just want to say that this is a bold statement. There is nothing to suggest that the banning frequencies will go down. Two announcements in a row there have been bannings. And Modern has had more bannings than basically any other format recently.
Wizards got a lot of lee way earlier because "New Format Infancy Blah Blah Blah." But how long can you use that excuse. Modern has had many large tournaments already, an established meta game, and STILL has frequent bannings. How much time are you going to give them before you get sick of it?
1) This isn't a fair look at legacy, as legacy is for the most part a creature format now.
2) It is not a good model of business to keep chasing away players who like playing engine combo type decks. This is basically Wizards saying "Screw You Johnnies. How dare you find cool and interesting interactions with the game?" Yes some combos still exist, but no more engine combos.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
It seems Wotc is aiming Modern at a certain play group. It is possible they see that play group buying new decks regularly so they feel bannings (changing of decks) wont bother that group much. I could see this thinking especially if they are trying to draw in the Standard crowd. Most Standard players are already use to changing decks quite often. Its only the old time Legacy/Vintage players that buy 1 deck and play it for years.
I really dont think as many as you feel will stop playing. Time will tell.
If combo players had no format to fall back on, I would agree with you. But there are formats where combo is alive and well. If a player is going to quit because they can play combo in one format but not all, then they were looking for a reason to quit in my opinion.
Modern combo has to fall with in the guidelines of the format. If the deck is not with in those guidelines, it will get nerfed. There are plenty of combo decks that fall with in the guidelines of the format.
Why must all non-rotating formats be the same? Seems boring to me. Different formats, different concepts. Seems you are looking for Modern to be a lot more like Legacy then you want to admit.
It should be important at this point to note that while Modern very well may be "non-rotating", WotC has said time and time again that it is NOT "Eternal" like Legacy or Vintage.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
do you forget who you talk to and just repeat whatever you want to repeat?
the point of a non-rotating format is that you don't have to switch decks every few months. the point of modern is so the cards that rotate out of standard are not obsolete in a shoebox somewhere. the point of modern is to keep the players who have been playing standard for the last few years in the game if they don't want to keep dropping money on decks. that is the appeal of a non-rotating format. there is no appeal to a non-rotating format that forces you to switch decks every few months by an artificial means.
@silvortal, did i say it was eternal? a ton of people don't even know the difference between a non-rotating format and an eternal format. if it was eternal, the format would be vastly different from what it is like now.
I'd argue that players won't need to "keep switching decks every few months" though. Modern's in a really healthy place right now, and I don't see any cards that are currently in the meta getting banned. Rather, I see some cards getting unbanned, and cards only getting banned if and when cards in future sets create broken decks or facilitate decks in becoming broken. And when that happens, I argue it will be fairly obvious based off of previous bannings.
And when I said that "Modern isn't Eternal", I meant that it is not only different in function from Vintage and Legacy, but also different in spirit. Modern is much more a "living format". Unlike Legacy, where the meta stays largely the same after each successive block release (perhaps adapting a few choice cards to preexisting decks, or seeing 1 or 2 new decks), Modern is a format that may change wildly based off new set releases (or yes, even bannings or unbannings). And that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
i would hope i'm wrong with the switching decks every few months. but our current two data points say that if your deck is performing better than par for the course, something will be banned from it. do i think this is true? maybe. i hope it isn't. i would much rather be "forced" to pick up a new deck because they unbanned something that i want to play more than my current bunch of decks.
eternal has a legitimate meaning in that essentially all printed cards that aren't from un- sets or banned or restricted in those formats can be played legally in sanctioned events for those formats. not so much a more dynamic format. by its card pool, modern will be more dynamic (because the cards are weaker), but every new set release won't necessarily bring new decks or dynamic shifts. only when they severely push the power level of some cards will shifts happen, and more often than not, those same shifts will be felt in legacy. see: abrupt decay and deathrite shaman. unless a card is printed that can compete with the cream of the crop, it probably won't see play in legacy. it may see play in modern, because they've essentially banned all the broken cards and the half the best cards (yet unexplainably, left the other powerful half in the pool...)
Cream of the Crop is good in Legacy?
I mean, I don't think any players could be complaining about the Bloodbraid Elf banning. While Jund specifically may not be as overpowering as it once was, the GB/X shell is still arguably the best shell in the format. Eggs ban was a long way coming, and almost everyone saw that. And it was pretty much a surgical banning of the one deck. The Seething Song ban took people a little by surprise, but again, this was a surgical banning of the one specific deck. While it may have also had impacts on Breach decks, Breach decks (which also run Goryo's Vengeance now) are still very playable.
I feel it's a little broad to say that Wizards just bans "the best decks" as they come about. From what I have felt, their bannings have been pretty well thought out.
I do agree that there may be cards on the banned list that are artifacts of a time when they were more broken (or perceived as more broken) than they are now. This was certainly the case with Valakut. But again, I applaud Wizards on being very careful with how they unban cards, so they won't have to immediately ban them again. That would be infinitely worse for the format in terms of stability than simply just banning cards in general.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Wait til I Turn 2 quadruple Primeval Titan into a Banefire for 20+ damage...
Eggs was a perfectly FAIR deck, the only players who usually dragged the games out longer were people who had little-no experience playing the deck.
Eggs ban was NOT healthy, it represented a very SMALL percentage of the meta, it wasn't really hurting anyone, just because ONE guy was acting like a total child, "Honest guy honest creatures" yeah, if I recall, he WON that game acting like a child the entire way through... Normally, i'm fine with his behaviour, but the way he acted against that eggs player... terrible.
I'm sure the rest of the community must have apparently felt the same way beating eggs like Kiblar, eh? "I won, but i'm going to act like a dick anyways."
Eggs wasn't unbeatable, and btw, if someone's taking a bit too long to play, tell them to speed up or you're calling a judge... how hard is that?
Also, how is an aggro/midrange only format healthy? it screams unstable to me that ANYTHING that stops aggro/midrange gets banned.
Aggro stomps control, combo stomps aggro, control stomps combo.
Twould seem WotC has forgotten the magic Triangle formula for their Modern Management.
There are simply some decks that don't exist mainly because they were prematurely banned or banned for the wrong reasons...
It was NOT a healthy ban to ban Second Sunrise.
Banning one of the only decks in the format that could possibly beat aggro other than OTHER AGGRO decks is not healthy, it shows wotc only wants aggro/midrange and doesn't want people to be able to play decent standard decks from years ago, Honestly, this time I just got so fed up with it.
I've dismantled my modern deck. Aggro mirrors aren't my definition of fun. and simply dismantling any combo left in modern isn't fun, it feels like i'm playing Solitaire... Sound familiar? I'm set to kill by Turn 3, they're still trying to set up... I'm playing solitaire with an aggro deck at that point... I refuse to constantly apologize for playing the deck that fits my personality (Affinity with a combo-twist).
Modern was something I was all for at the announcement, a non-rotating format without the crippling effects of the reserved list.
It has completely deviated from what it was announced to be, it was supposed to be somewhere where old standard decks could grow into something awesome. not just CURRENT standard decks with a couple old cards in it...
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