I really don't understand how you can say it was unhealthy. Eggs went against their fundamental rule that they didn't want a reasonably consistent deck capable of winning of turn 3 and regularly turn 4 against resistance.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
I really don't understand how you can say it was unhealthy. Eggs went against their fundamental rule that they didn't want a reasonably consistent deck capable of winning of turn 3 and regularly turn 4 against resistance.
I am still baffled as to why people keep mentioning this. Wizards didn't say a word about the speed of Eggs in laying down the banhammer. The problem with Eggs was purely logistical (tournament time). Of course, we could still assume that Wizards is secretly conspiring against Eggs and combo, and just did not revealing the true reasons for the Second Sunrise ban. But that seems both silly and unlikely. Wizards has happily admitted banning cards because of their speed and power in the past, and there is no reason they would stop now.
I am still baffled as to why people keep mentioning this. Wizards didn't say a word about the speed of Eggs in laying down the banhammer. The problem with Eggs was purely logistical (tournament time). Of course, we could still assume that Wizards is secretly conspiring against Eggs and combo, and just did not revealing the true reasons for the Second Sunrise ban. But that seems both silly and unlikely. Wizards has happily admitted banning cards because of their speed and power in the past, and there is no reason they would stop now.
There can be multiple reasons for their decision. I wasn't even arguing their reasoning. Only why it's foolish for anyone to be against the banning. It makes absolutely no sense to me that anyone could find banning Second Sunrise "unhealthy". Combo has ruined the format for a lot of people. First it was the Splinter Twin, then it was Infect and Through the Breach, then Pyromancer Ascension, then Kiki-Pod, then Eggs and Boggle. None of that needs to exist. Magic is healthy when you can play interactive magic for more than a few turns.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
does anyone else kinda wish tehy has instead unbanned bitterblosm to have Fae fight eggs? In my mind, fae gets ripped up by zoo and rock(jund) decks, while it beats on midrange and combo.
I dunno, in my mind we just lack a solid control strategy. It's just a matter of tiem before something harmless like beck//call gets the ban hammer for producing something that the meta just can not handle.
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
does anyone else kinda wish tehy has instead unbanned bitterblosm to have Fae fight eggs? In my mind, fae gets ripped up by zoo and rock(jund) decks, while it beats on midrange and combo.
I dunno, in my mind we just lack a solid control strategy. It's just a matter of tiem before something harmless like beck//call gets the ban hammer for producing something that the meta just can not handle.
The ban had nothing to do with Eggs' power level. It was about logistics.
Fae is not control. It is aggro-control, or tempo.
UWR is control, and it is competitive. 2nd place at GP San Diego was UWR.
The ban had nothing to do with Eggs' power level. It was about logistics.
Fae is not control. It is aggro-control, or tempo.
UWR is control, and it is competitive. 2nd place at GP San Diego was UWR.
It's not a very good control deck if it lost the final to an engine combo deck that they are traditionally very strong against.
It's not really a control deck in the traditonal sense.
It's removal+Sphinx's Revelation, which is pretty bad against eggs.
That was my point exactly. UWR from legacy is more of a traditional control deck dealing with threats with removal counter magic and enemy hand manipulation.
It's not a very good control deck if it lost the final to an engine combo deck that they are traditionally very strong against.
You know that luck exists, right?
Besides, durdly control is not combo's biggest nemesis. Tempo is. If you have a clock and disruption, combo is easy to handle. If you have no clock, then you give the combo player more opportunities to draw his outs.
Then we have to agree to disagree. Difference is good. Richness is good. Even if -> YOU <- don't like something, it does not mean it doesn't have a place in the game.
It might be good if someone else enjoys it, but that is consistent with my point. More decks is not necessarily good-the decks have to make the game more fun for at least some number of players. With that said, I think that Eggs definitely did more harm than good in the sense that there were more people who hated it and what it did to tournaments than there were people who loved it.
My issue with Eggs, is that you can basically ignore your opponent. It becomes a game of solitaire you need to win in 2-5 turns.
There is little to no interaction. Leyline of Sanctity prevents removing combo pieces after sideboard. It makes Magic unfun, and it takes too long. This isn't Legacy.
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I know what it does, what does it DO?
-Michael Jacob
My issue with Eggs, is that you can basically ignore your opponent. It becomes a game of solitaire you need to win in 2-5 turns.
There is little to no interaction. Leyline of Sanctity prevents removing combo pieces after sideboard. It makes Magic unfun, and it takes too long. This isn't Legacy.
You can say the same of every other combo deck. Twin. Scapeshift. Pod. Wanna ban them all?
And no, "creature-based combo is OK" is a terrible argument. Try playing against Bogle. Hell, Shoal Infect and Elves were creature-based and they still got banned.
You are sorely mistaken about Leyline. The only time it's good is when all your opponent's sideboard hate has the word "target player" or "target opponent" on it, i.e. Jund. It does a fat lot of good against counters, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, Blind Obedience, Surgical Extraction...
The deck reminds me a lot of Dredge, in that it's gameplan is so unconventional and alien to Magic that it's nearly impossible to fight effectively pre-board. But what's even worse than Dredge is that it is extremely tedious for both players as it requires the pilot to sit and think to himself and do math for many minutes at a time.
You can say the same of every other combo deck. Twin. Scapeshift. Pod. Wanna ban them all?
And no, "creature-based combo is OK" is a terrible argument. Try playing against Bogle. Hell, Shoal Infect and Elves were creature-based and they still got banned.
You are sorely mistaken about Leyline. The only time it's good is when all your opponent's sideboard hate has the word "target player" or "target opponent" on it, i.e. Jund. It does a fat lot of good against counters, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, Blind Obedience, Surgical Extraction...
Shoal and Elves were banned for power level reasons.....If Glimpse of Nature were legal combo Elves would probably be the best deck in the format. Decks like Pod and Twin are much more interactive than decks like Eggs, that is why people don't mind playing against them quite as much. I would prefer decks like Eggs to be kept out of the format unless some sort of free counterspell is printed. If we had a RUG Delver style deck in the format I wouldn't care about Eggs and similar decks existing.
to me is bad, of course i play combo, and with my money wasted two times, i dont wanna invest again in a format when the top tier decks are always banned, and combo (engine combo, not stupid things like twin) can't survive because players that cant build a sideboard cries
combo always predate on people that isnt prepared for it, you know what? welcome to magic the gathering
to me is bad, of course i play combo, and with my money wasted two times, i dont wanna invest again in a format when the top tier decks are always banned, and combo (engine combo, not stupid things like twin) can't survive because players that cant build a sideboard cries
combo always predate on people that isnt prepared for it, you know what? welcome to magic the gathering
As I said on page 2, it's like people aren't actually reading the banning announcement, and are instead just whining for their own sake.
See, if you scroll down a bit on the page, there's that little section called "Explanation". Might want to read that so you don't sound like an uninformed whiner.
See, if you scroll down a bit on the page, there's that little section called "Explanation". Might want to read that so you don't sound like an uninformed whiner.
man, you don't seem to understand, obviously i know the explanation, and maybe it's right, the deck caused problems, but the thing is that there is no engine combo deck in the format anymore,because they killed storm and eggs, as i said, my money was wasted 2 times, with or without the official explanation
man, you don't seem to understand, obviously i know the explanation, and maybe it's right, the deck caused problems, but the thing is that there is no engine combo deck in the format anymore,because they killed storm and eggs, as i said, my money was wasted 2 times, with or without the official explanation
Except you got an explanation, and then start whining about WotC banning out decks just because they perform well.....
Investing in Eggs was never a really good idea. A boring, non-interactive solitare deck that consistently causes time issues for tournaments wasn't going to last long in the mainstream of Modern.
Storm came down more to a "do you have hand destruction/counterspells?" kind of game. Granted, I'd rather Storm stay in the format (unlike Eggs, Storm is quick and fun to watch IMO), but I understand why SS was banned, even if I don't agree with it.
Tomthumb, we know what (and I'm going to use the same inflection as last time) -> YOU <- want. But you are one person. Such as I am aware that I am only one, so should you. There's people who dislike eggs, there's people who like eggs, and there's people to whom eggs is indifferent. Do you really think the latter two are outweighed by the first one?
Even, do you think the pros outweigh the cons in this particular case? What is your definition for a great format for modern?
I would be willing to bet a vast amount of money that the majority of players hate Eggs and any other decks that operate on the same axis. Although some people enjoy "Engine combo", it is not popular and never will be.
Do I think people who like eggs are outweighed by people who don't like having their tournaments delayed or playing against decks that are not interactive? Yes, yes I do. I don't care about the people who like engine combo, they can go play vintage or quite magic for all I care. I'm not saying that to troll you, that is honestly how I feel.
I would be willing to bet a vast amount of money that the majority of players hate Eggs and any other decks that operate on the same axis. Although some people enjoy "Engine combo", it is not popular and never will be.
Do I think people who like eggs are outweighed by people who don't like having their tournaments delayed or playing against decks that are not interactive? Yes, yes I do. I don't care about the people who like engine combo, they can go play vintage or quite magic for all I care. I'm not saying that to troll you, that is honestly how I feel.
I feel exactly the same way. Look at the results of this poll. Most people feel this way. THerefore, this was a great ban.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
I am still baffled as to why people keep mentioning this. Wizards didn't say a word about the speed of Eggs in laying down the banhammer. The problem with Eggs was purely logistical (tournament time). Of course, we could still assume that Wizards is secretly conspiring against Eggs and combo, and just did not revealing the true reasons for the Second Sunrise ban. But that seems both silly and unlikely. Wizards has happily admitted banning cards because of their speed and power in the past, and there is no reason they would stop now.
There can be multiple reasons for their decision. I wasn't even arguing their reasoning. Only why it's foolish for anyone to be against the banning. It makes absolutely no sense to me that anyone could find banning Second Sunrise "unhealthy". Combo has ruined the format for a lot of people. First it was the Splinter Twin, then it was Infect and Through the Breach, then Pyromancer Ascension, then Kiki-Pod, then Eggs and Boggle. None of that needs to exist. Magic is healthy when you can play interactive magic for more than a few turns.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
I dunno, in my mind we just lack a solid control strategy. It's just a matter of tiem before something harmless like beck//call gets the ban hammer for producing something that the meta just can not handle.
The ban had nothing to do with Eggs' power level. It was about logistics.
Fae is not control. It is aggro-control, or tempo.
UWR is control, and it is competitive. 2nd place at GP San Diego was UWR.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
It's not a very good control deck if it lost the final to an engine combo deck that they are traditionally very strong against.
That was my point exactly. UWR from legacy is more of a traditional control deck dealing with threats with removal counter magic and enemy hand manipulation.
You know that luck exists, right?
Besides, durdly control is not combo's biggest nemesis. Tempo is. If you have a clock and disruption, combo is easy to handle. If you have no clock, then you give the combo player more opportunities to draw his outs.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
It might be good if someone else enjoys it, but that is consistent with my point. More decks is not necessarily good-the decks have to make the game more fun for at least some number of players. With that said, I think that Eggs definitely did more harm than good in the sense that there were more people who hated it and what it did to tournaments than there were people who loved it.
There is little to no interaction. Leyline of Sanctity prevents removing combo pieces after sideboard. It makes Magic unfun, and it takes too long. This isn't Legacy.
-Michael Jacob
You can say the same of every other combo deck. Twin. Scapeshift. Pod. Wanna ban them all?
And no, "creature-based combo is OK" is a terrible argument. Try playing against Bogle. Hell, Shoal Infect and Elves were creature-based and they still got banned.
You are sorely mistaken about Leyline. The only time it's good is when all your opponent's sideboard hate has the word "target player" or "target opponent" on it, i.e. Jund. It does a fat lot of good against counters, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, Blind Obedience, Surgical Extraction...
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I'm certainly not sad to see it go.
Shoal and Elves were banned for power level reasons.....If Glimpse of Nature were legal combo Elves would probably be the best deck in the format. Decks like Pod and Twin are much more interactive than decks like Eggs, that is why people don't mind playing against them quite as much. I would prefer decks like Eggs to be kept out of the format unless some sort of free counterspell is printed. If we had a RUG Delver style deck in the format I wouldn't care about Eggs and similar decks existing.
combo always predate on people that isnt prepared for it, you know what? welcome to magic the gathering
As I said on page 2, it's like people aren't actually reading the banning announcement, and are instead just whining for their own sake.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/244b2
See, if you scroll down a bit on the page, there's that little section called "Explanation". Might want to read that so you don't sound like an uninformed whiner.
man, you don't seem to understand, obviously i know the explanation, and maybe it's right, the deck caused problems, but the thing is that there is no engine combo deck in the format anymore,because they killed storm and eggs, as i said, my money was wasted 2 times, with or without the official explanation
Except you got an explanation, and then start whining about WotC banning out decks just because they perform well.....
Investing in Eggs was never a really good idea. A boring, non-interactive solitare deck that consistently causes time issues for tournaments wasn't going to last long in the mainstream of Modern.
Storm came down more to a "do you have hand destruction/counterspells?" kind of game. Granted, I'd rather Storm stay in the format (unlike Eggs, Storm is quick and fun to watch IMO), but I understand why SS was banned, even if I don't agree with it.
edit: to me, the biggest problem is that they are banning things but they aren't unbanning things
I'd take that for SS.
I would be willing to bet a vast amount of money that the majority of players hate Eggs and any other decks that operate on the same axis. Although some people enjoy "Engine combo", it is not popular and never will be.
Do I think people who like eggs are outweighed by people who don't like having their tournaments delayed or playing against decks that are not interactive? Yes, yes I do. I don't care about the people who like engine combo, they can go play vintage or quite magic for all I care. I'm not saying that to troll you, that is honestly how I feel.
I feel exactly the same way. Look at the results of this poll. Most people feel this way. THerefore, this was a great ban.