There is little to no interaction. Leyline of Sanctity prevents removing combo pieces after sideboard. It makes Magic unfun, and it takes too long. This isn't Legacy.
And then in the following paragraph:
The deck uses Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward to get back cards that generate mana, such as Lotus Bloom, and various artifacts that draw a card. A common choice to win the game is Pyrite Spellbomb. However, the way the player gets to the point of forcing a win might involve casting Second Sunrise so many times that the entire library is drawn, and only cards put back with Conjurer's Bauble are left. A single turn might take fifteen minutes or more.
i know that a lot of people doesn't like engine combo decks, but we are a part of the community too, and that kind of decks is a part of the game
It is not so much that engine combo is personally important to community members. Rather, it is that engine combo occupies an important slot in the metagame. Engine combo is generally difficult to disrupt, especially using the strategies that are traditionally used in combating aggro decks. It is resilient to removal and traditional hand disruption. This keeps aggro honest and increases format demand for control players. Without engine combo, midrange aggro strategies flourish, given their effectiveness against both control and creature-based opponents. That's exactly what we see in current Modern events.
(And in case this was unclear, this has nothing to do with the SS banning and everything to do with the theory of combo more generally)
And then in the following paragraph:
The deck uses Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward to get back cards that generate mana, such as Lotus Bloom, and various artifacts that draw a card. A common choice to win the game is Pyrite Spellbomb. However, the way the player gets to the point of forcing a win might involve casting Second Sunrise so many times that the entire library is drawn, and only cards put back with Conjurer's Bauble are left. A single turn might take fifteen minutes or more.
Time was the ONLY reason they gave.
We agree. I did not mean "Speed" as the "Time" length of a turn. As I said in my previous post, Wizards banned SS for "logistical"/"tournament times" reasons. That is to say, we agree that it was banned for "Time". By "Speed", I meant the fundamental turn of the deck (i.e. the win turn). I was responding to someone who claimed that SS was banned because it was winning on turn 3 too often, and that was so obviously not why SS was banned.
It is not so much that engine combo is personally important to community members. Rather, it is that engine combo occupies an important slot in the metagame. Engine combo is generally difficult to disrupt, especially using the strategies that are traditionally used in combating aggro decks. It is resilient to removal and traditional hand disruption. This keeps aggro honest and increases format demand for control players. Without engine combo, midrange aggro strategies flourish, given their effectiveness against both control and creature-based opponents. That's exactly what we see in current Modern events.
Engine combo decks, when they are good, push entire strategies out of the format because there are few decks that can actually interact with them. They don't "keep aggro" honest, whatever that means. They just push out decks that cannot interact with them. Also, you seem to be suggesting that Jund had a bad matchup against Eggs. I think that was true when Cifka won the pro tour, but only because no one really had Eggs on their radar. I don't thin Jund had bad matchup against Eggs once people knew to prepare for it, it's probably pretty even and comes down to who draws better. Also, control is being kept out of Modern by Tron decks, not midrange decks like Jund. I was playing Cuneo's UWx control deck and I abandoned it for the same reason he did, it simply couldn't beat Tron on a consistent basis. Other matchups were very winnable.
It seems like every time someone finds a cool weapon to fight the format WotC is going to ban it. I can't understand how people is happy with WotC telling us what is fun or not.
Woulda been much better to make a ruling for combos going infinite (imo there is no need to make them actually do every single step if they can prove they are going for it) than banning a complete fair deck for "time issues". Should they ban Elves too? cmon...
i know that a lot of people doesn't like engine combo decks, but we are a part of the community too, and that kind of decks is a part of the game
When you play an Engine combo deck despite knowing that most people hate it you are saying that you don't care if your opponents enjoy playing against you or not. You are going to do what you want to do because you want to win or because you enjoy playing engine combo decks. This is fair insofar as the rules allow you to do that, but doesn't come crying to us about being part of the community when we say we don't care about how much you enjoy the format. You probably ruined the experience of several people by playings Eggs, and they are part of the community too. Did you care? I doubt it.
Do I think people who like eggs are outweighed by people who don't like having their tournaments delayed or playing against decks that are not interactive? Yes, yes I do. I don't care about the people who like engine combo, they can go play vintage or quite magic for all I care. I'm not saying that to troll you, that is honestly how I feel.
That's how I feel as well. This is an eternal format centered around Modern design and modern sets. Creatures will always be a major part of this format, because that's what modern design is based around. You'll always have Legacy, Vintage, EDH, Cube, and Casual to play with the old spell-heavy designs while others can choose Standard and Modern for their creature-centered gaming.
Can't afford Legacy/Vintage? Get a better job, spend less on useless junk, cut bills, use proxies, etc. Modern is not your Legacy replacement, and Wizards is making that very clear through multiple bannings.
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
Engine combo decks, when they are good, push entire strategies out of the format because there are few decks that can actually interact with them. They don't "keep aggro" honest, whatever that means. They just push out decks that cannot interact with them. Also, you seem to be suggesting that Jund had a bad matchup against Eggs. I think that was true when Cifka won the pro tour, but only because no one really had Eggs on their radar. I don't thin Jund had bad matchup against Eggs once people knew to prepare for it, it's probably pretty even and comes down to who draws better. Also, control is being kept out of Modern by Tron decks, not midrange decks like Jund. I was playing Cuneo's UWx control deck and I abandoned it for the same reason he did, it simply couldn't beat Tron on a consistent basis. Other matchups were very winnable.
Storm was an engine combo deck in modern for a long time and it didn't drive any decks out of the format. The only deck that has been pushing decks out of the format since punishing fire was banned has been Jund.
There are a few cards that have been pushed out of the format. Most green 2-drops aren't beating Tarmogoyf, and ditto for Dark Confidant. However, if those cards left there would just be another "best" 2 drop found to replace those. Its OK to have a "best" card in a few slots. There are cards like this every other format: Legacy (Brainstorm/FOW/Swords/Bolt), Vintage (Moxen/most restricted cantrips/Ancestral/etc.), Standard (Thragtusk/Sphinx's/Snapcaster)
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
There are a few cards that have been pushed out of the format. Most green 2-drops aren't beating Tarmogoyf, and ditto for Dark Confidant. However, if those cards left there would just be another "best" 2 drop found to replace those. Its OK to have a "best" card in a few slots. There are cards like this every other format: Legacy (Brainstorm/FOW/Swords/Bolt), Vintage (Moxen/most restricted cantrips/Ancestral/etc.), Standard (Thragtusk/Sphinx's/Snapcaster)
Delver and the blue tempo decks were completely pushed out by jund after the players champs. So was zoo.
Zoo was missing from the first part of the PTQ season, but once Gatecrash was released it became a tournament monster thanks to Burning-Tree and Experiment One. Not to mention the Bogle/Auras deck made a good Zoo impersonation.
Delver wasn't top tier, sure, but other blue decks were. It looks like Delver is going to be less viable regardless of Jund now, thanks to that new creature from Dragon's Maze.
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I think you are missing a large period of the year before GTC was actually released heck before RtR was released jund took the players champs and then dominated the MTGO meta until the pro tour.
That's how I feel as well. This is an eternal format centered around Modern design and modern sets. Creatures will always be a major part of this format, because that's what modern design is based around. You'll always have Legacy, Vintage, EDH, Cube, and Casual to play with the old spell-heavy designs while others can choose Standard and Modern for their creature-centered gaming.
Can't afford Legacy/Vintage? Get a better job, spend less on useless junk, cut bills, use proxies, etc. Modern is not your Legacy replacement, and Wizards is making that very clear through multiple bannings.
Combo decks have always been a part of the game. Even though WotC always tried and tried to destroy them.
The real players and fans of this game would never want cards to be banned but get tools to protect other strategies to become obsolete against the deck to beat.
In a couple of years we will have 3 card types: Land, Creature and Planeswalker...
Storm was an engine combo deck in modern for a long time and it didn't drive any decks out of the format. The only deck that has been pushing decks out of the format since punishing fire was banned has been Jund.
I think you are wrong. Storm's speed made many decks without ways to interact with unplayable. Aggro decks without white were really bad in a storm heavy meta for example.
There's nothing wrong with having a "best" deck, especially one that only had a marginally higher win rate than the rest of the 20+ deck field.
I don't think anyone wants combo completely gone, but in this format Wizards wants those decks kept at a fair critical turn (turn 4 rule), easy to disrupt (creature-based), and able to win in a timely fashion. And frankly I don't see any reason why I can't just play my sweet combo decks in Legacy.
You all think I hate combo, but the truth is that I have multiple combo decks built in Legacy. Some go off on turns 1-2, some take a bit longer and are more engine-based, but they all win with some sort of combo in the end. I just see that there can be different formats for different types of games. Legacy can be the combo format because the older cards can handle those types of decks. Vintage can have the turn 1 prison decks because that's what is expected in a "no holds barred" type of format.
Modern is a different story. It is being guided by Wizards as a alternative to Standard, not to Legacy. The bans show this pattern, and as such I'd rather just play what I want in the formats where they are appropriate than try to play non-creature decks in formats that are geared towards creatures. Why try to fit a round peg into a square hole?
Why not just play more than one format? When you want creature decks, play Modern/Standard/Block/Draft, and when you feel like casting 0 creature spells Legacy/Vintage/EDH/Casual are waiting for you. Different formats for different play styles.
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
Sweet Jegus there's a lot of pointless doomsaying in here. Neither Modern nor Magic in general are going to turn into Yu-Gi-Oh just because they banned one deck for being obnoxious. It's not going to die because they banned some combo decks for being too fast. It's not going to die if they were banned for screwing up tournaments. There are still plenty of combo decks that still fit with the goals of the format: If you don't agree with those goals, play a different format.
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*Insert giant block of annoying garbage that no one cares about but you have to scroll past anyway here*
The PTQ season ended after the ban.
There was one clearly best deck before the ban. It was Jund.
Being the best deck pushes other decks out.
Only if you subscribe to the notion that you have to play the "best" deck, instead of playing one of those 20+ other decks that were tuned to beat it.
Jund was a 55/45 deck. It was strong, but it certainly had a mediocre win percentage when all of the Jund pilots were weighed in. The deck was popular, which brought out a lot of pilots, which helped it continue to win. But the deck really was quite fair. This was no CawBlade, Faeries, or Flash.
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I think you are wrong. Storm's speed made many decks without ways to interact with unplayable. Aggro decks without white were really bad in a storm heavy meta for example.
Except that storm completely ignores what your opponent is doing and any of the aggro decks could easily race storm. Storm didn't even break the turn 4 rule until they printed electromancer and epic experiment it operated on a more resilient slower engine pyromancer's ascension.
Also if you weren't playing white you were still more than capable of playing thorn of amethyst or mindbreak trap so this only white can disrupt combo is crap.
Only if you subscribe to the notion that you have to play the "best" deck, instead of playing one of those 20+ other decks that were tuned to beat it.
Jund was a 55/45 deck. It was strong, but it certainly had a mediocre win percentage when all of the Jund pilots were weighed in. The deck was popular, which brought out a lot of pilots, which helped it continue to win. But the deck really was quite fair. This was no CawBlade, Faeries, or Flash.
Except faeries mirrors were typically determined by who was the better players while jund mirrors were decided by who top decked better. Jund was a 55/45 deck because 50% of the time you were playing against jund. Having no matchups that were <50% is good enough to dominate a format heck g/r tron is only a deck because it has an amazing game 1 matchup against jund.
It was unhealthy in the regard that Eggs did represent a flaw in the MTR with regards to extra turns, it is still possible to create a deck that can take long turns without it being considered slowplay (see the Modern 4 Horsemen variant or even Eggs before Faith's Reward) and that represented a bigger issue than the deck itself.
It was healthy in that for the time being it will stop tournament rounds from going way past time, a better banning would have been Pyrite Spellbomb if they wanted to speed up the deck
How would 4 Horsemen be transitioned to modern? Any link by chance?
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
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Neither is what you described.
It was the first sentence.
"Modern tournaments have recently been diverse, with no dominant deck. However, large tournaments have had a problem with the Eggs deck, causing rounds to take significantly longer."
And then in the following paragraph:
The deck uses Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward to get back cards that generate mana, such as Lotus Bloom, and various artifacts that draw a card. A common choice to win the game is Pyrite Spellbomb. However, the way the player gets to the point of forcing a win might involve casting Second Sunrise so many times that the entire library is drawn, and only cards put back with Conjurer's Bauble are left. A single turn might take fifteen minutes or more.
Time was the ONLY reason they gave.
I don't, and they are.
Just don't play one that takes so long.
It is not so much that engine combo is personally important to community members. Rather, it is that engine combo occupies an important slot in the metagame. Engine combo is generally difficult to disrupt, especially using the strategies that are traditionally used in combating aggro decks. It is resilient to removal and traditional hand disruption. This keeps aggro honest and increases format demand for control players. Without engine combo, midrange aggro strategies flourish, given their effectiveness against both control and creature-based opponents. That's exactly what we see in current Modern events.
(And in case this was unclear, this has nothing to do with the SS banning and everything to do with the theory of combo more generally)
We agree. I did not mean "Speed" as the "Time" length of a turn. As I said in my previous post, Wizards banned SS for "logistical"/"tournament times" reasons. That is to say, we agree that it was banned for "Time". By "Speed", I meant the fundamental turn of the deck (i.e. the win turn). I was responding to someone who claimed that SS was banned because it was winning on turn 3 too often, and that was so obviously not why SS was banned.
Engine combo decks, when they are good, push entire strategies out of the format because there are few decks that can actually interact with them. They don't "keep aggro" honest, whatever that means. They just push out decks that cannot interact with them. Also, you seem to be suggesting that Jund had a bad matchup against Eggs. I think that was true when Cifka won the pro tour, but only because no one really had Eggs on their radar. I don't thin Jund had bad matchup against Eggs once people knew to prepare for it, it's probably pretty even and comes down to who draws better. Also, control is being kept out of Modern by Tron decks, not midrange decks like Jund. I was playing Cuneo's UWx control deck and I abandoned it for the same reason he did, it simply couldn't beat Tron on a consistent basis. Other matchups were very winnable.
Woulda been much better to make a ruling for combos going infinite (imo there is no need to make them actually do every single step if they can prove they are going for it) than banning a complete fair deck for "time issues". Should they ban Elves too? cmon...
When you play an Engine combo deck despite knowing that most people hate it you are saying that you don't care if your opponents enjoy playing against you or not. You are going to do what you want to do because you want to win or because you enjoy playing engine combo decks. This is fair insofar as the rules allow you to do that, but doesn't come crying to us about being part of the community when we say we don't care about how much you enjoy the format. You probably ruined the experience of several people by playings Eggs, and they are part of the community too. Did you care? I doubt it.
Yay!
None, they banned the last one.It is a shame that it was the first one to deserve it.
Wait!
Tron, infect and pod.
That's how I feel as well. This is an eternal format centered around Modern design and modern sets. Creatures will always be a major part of this format, because that's what modern design is based around. You'll always have Legacy, Vintage, EDH, Cube, and Casual to play with the old spell-heavy designs while others can choose Standard and Modern for their creature-centered gaming.
Can't afford Legacy/Vintage? Get a better job, spend less on useless junk, cut bills, use proxies, etc. Modern is not your Legacy replacement, and Wizards is making that very clear through multiple bannings.
~ Brian DeMars
Storm was an engine combo deck in modern for a long time and it didn't drive any decks out of the format. The only deck that has been pushing decks out of the format since punishing fire was banned has been Jund.
There are a few cards that have been pushed out of the format. Most green 2-drops aren't beating Tarmogoyf, and ditto for Dark Confidant. However, if those cards left there would just be another "best" 2 drop found to replace those. Its OK to have a "best" card in a few slots. There are cards like this every other format: Legacy (Brainstorm/FOW/Swords/Bolt), Vintage (Moxen/most restricted cantrips/Ancestral/etc.), Standard (Thragtusk/Sphinx's/Snapcaster)
~ Brian DeMars
All of them.
~ Brian DeMars
Delver and the blue tempo decks were completely pushed out by jund after the players champs. So was zoo.
Delver wasn't top tier, sure, but other blue decks were. It looks like Delver is going to be less viable regardless of Jund now, thanks to that new creature from Dragon's Maze.
~ Brian DeMars
Combo decks have always been a part of the game. Even though WotC always tried and tried to destroy them.
The real players and fans of this game would never want cards to be banned but get tools to protect other strategies to become obsolete against the deck to beat.
In a couple of years we will have 3 card types: Land, Creature and Planeswalker...
The PTQ season ended after the ban.
There was one clearly best deck before the ban. It was Jund.
Being the best deck pushes other decks out.
I think you are wrong. Storm's speed made many decks without ways to interact with unplayable. Aggro decks without white were really bad in a storm heavy meta for example.
I don't think anyone wants combo completely gone, but in this format Wizards wants those decks kept at a fair critical turn (turn 4 rule), easy to disrupt (creature-based), and able to win in a timely fashion. And frankly I don't see any reason why I can't just play my sweet combo decks in Legacy.
You all think I hate combo, but the truth is that I have multiple combo decks built in Legacy. Some go off on turns 1-2, some take a bit longer and are more engine-based, but they all win with some sort of combo in the end. I just see that there can be different formats for different types of games. Legacy can be the combo format because the older cards can handle those types of decks. Vintage can have the turn 1 prison decks because that's what is expected in a "no holds barred" type of format.
Modern is a different story. It is being guided by Wizards as a alternative to Standard, not to Legacy. The bans show this pattern, and as such I'd rather just play what I want in the formats where they are appropriate than try to play non-creature decks in formats that are geared towards creatures. Why try to fit a round peg into a square hole?
Why not just play more than one format? When you want creature decks, play Modern/Standard/Block/Draft, and when you feel like casting 0 creature spells Legacy/Vintage/EDH/Casual are waiting for you. Different formats for different play styles.
~ Brian DeMars
Only if you subscribe to the notion that you have to play the "best" deck, instead of playing one of those 20+ other decks that were tuned to beat it.
Jund was a 55/45 deck. It was strong, but it certainly had a mediocre win percentage when all of the Jund pilots were weighed in. The deck was popular, which brought out a lot of pilots, which helped it continue to win. But the deck really was quite fair. This was no CawBlade, Faeries, or Flash.
~ Brian DeMars
Except that storm completely ignores what your opponent is doing and any of the aggro decks could easily race storm. Storm didn't even break the turn 4 rule until they printed electromancer and epic experiment it operated on a more resilient slower engine pyromancer's ascension.
Also if you weren't playing white you were still more than capable of playing thorn of amethyst or mindbreak trap so this only white can disrupt combo is crap.
Except faeries mirrors were typically determined by who was the better players while jund mirrors were decided by who top decked better. Jund was a 55/45 deck because 50% of the time you were playing against jund. Having no matchups that were <50% is good enough to dominate a format heck g/r tron is only a deck because it has an amazing game 1 matchup against jund.
How would 4 Horsemen be transitioned to modern? Any link by chance?
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge