MTG Salvation

Quote from Klimto

If Wizards hated combo they would not have unbanned Scapeshift.

Scapeshift wasn't on the B&R list, Valakut was and became free from tyranny in Sept.

Quote from CerberusSG

I am also confused with all the discussion in this thread.

1) Why are we comparing Legacy banlist against Modern banlist?

Isnt Wotc constant in their bannings as it aligns with their expectations of Modern? (Arent we expecting a card in Eggs to be banned?) Why are the community portraying their own expectations of Modern onto the banlist? Are we still in the loop which discussed which card should be unban (eg. bitterblossom) and which card should be ban (eg. Lotus Bloom)?

The Legacy/Modern comparison started as a point of history to identify banning patterns that Wizards might be likely to follow. For example, it took Wizards about 3 years to unban a card from the Legacy list following the format's creation. That might suggest that we Moderners need to either wait another year for an unban or, because of the way that Wizards is pushing Modern, are likely to see an unban in September.

As another point, Wizards had to ban Mystical Tutor only 9 months after unbanning Entomb, and although that was not solely due to Reanimator (ANT was actually worse), it was absolutely influenced by the initial Entomb unban. For Modern, that means Wizards is unlikely to want to repeat this mistakes and will probably be extra conservative with unbans, even if the cards appear otherwise unsafe.

Historical behavior is just one of the many tools we can use to analyze and predict bannings, so long as we do it with careful consideration to the context of the initial bans in Legacy.

Quote from Drekavac

I agree with SteB that, compared to Legacy's ban list, the one for Modern looks almost as if it was drawn up randomly.

The ban list for Legacy consists, more or less, of several major card groups:

- broken draw engines (Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, etc.)
- effortless tutors (Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, etc.)
- fast mana enablers (Moxes, Black Lotus, etc.)
- broken engine cards (Survival of the Fittest, Oath of Druids, etc.)
- misc. (Mental Misstep)

If we were to apply such an approach to the Modern banned list, about half, maybe even 2/3, of the bans could be justified. However, the rest of the list is truly puke-worthy and it really undermines the good work they have been doing with the list.

Well, we have to remember that the relative brokenness of the Modern card pool is quite different from the Legacy one. Modern only has two cards that are truly degenerate by any format's standards: Skullclamp and Mental Misstep. The rest of the Modern banlist is only broken relative to the Modern card pool; some cards like Hypergenesis are barely even playable in Legacy. But in the Modern context, HG is clearly nuts. So we need to compare relative brokenness of cards, not absolute brokenness.

Looking at the banlist, the following cards are probably in the "relatively broken" category. They aren't as powerful as Necropotence in the absolute sense, but in this particular format, they are just as dangerous given our card pool.

• Ancient Den
  
• Blazing Shoal
  
• Chrome Mox
  
• Cloudpost
  
• Dread Return
  
• Glimpse of Nature
  
• Great Furnace
  
• Hypergenesis
  
• Mental Misstep
  
• Punishing Fire
  
• Rite of Flame
  
• Seat of the Synod
  
• Skullclamp
  
• Tree of Tales
  
• Umezawa's Jitte
  
• Vault of Whispers

These cards are a sort of "core group" of broken Modern cards. Given the format's card pool, these are cards that either don't have good answers (most decks actually can't answer a turn 2 Hypergenesis or turn 3 Dread Return + Bridge from Below swarms) or unduly warp the format towards certain strategies (Punishing Fire means no 1-2 toughness creatures). Future printings might make these cards fairer for Modern, but until then, these cards need to stay where they are.

But as you suggested, some of the other cards just don't map onto that list. Ponder and Preordain are not broken draw engines by any means. Green Sun's Zenith is not even Survival of the Fittest relative to our format. Even Ancestral Vision is no Ancestral Recall, not even relative to the cards in our format.

So this is where I see the laughable part of the banlist. The relative power of one half of the banlist is so much higher than that of the other. What on earth is Wild Nacatl doing on a banlist with Skullclamp? Even looking at the Modern cardpool as a basis of comparison, we are hardpressed to justify bannings like Preordain.

Quote from ktkenshinx

• Ancient Den
  
• Blazing Shoal
  
• Chrome Mox
  
• Cloudpost
  
• Dread Return
  
• Glimpse of Nature
  
• Great Furnace
  
• Hypergenesis
  
• Mental Misstep
  
• Punishing Fire
  
• Rite of Flame
  
• Seat of the Synod
  
• Skullclamp
  
• Tree of Tales
  
• Umezawa's Jitte
  
• Vault of Whispers

These cards are a sort of "core group" of broken Modern cards. Given the format's card pool, these are cards that either don't have good answers (most decks actually can't answer a turn 2 Hypergenesis or turn 3 Dread Return + Bridge from Below swarms) or unduly warp the format towards certain strategies (Punishing Fire means no 1-2 toughness creatures). Future printings might make these cards fairer for Modern, but until then, these cards need to stay where they are.

But as you suggested, some of the other cards just don't map onto that list. Ponder and Preordain are not broken draw engines by any means. Green Sun's Zenith is not even Survival of the Fittest relative to our format. Even Ancestral Vision is no Ancestral Recall, not even relative to the cards in our format.

So this is where I see the laughable part of the banlist. The relative power of one half of the banlist is so much higher than that of the other. What on earth is Wild Nacatl doing on a banlist with Skullclamp? Even looking at the Modern cardpool as a basis of comparison, we are hardpressed to justify bannings like Preordain.

The only card I would add on towards your original list (which I agree with) is Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Seething Song promotes a huge level of degeneracy as well as promoting some good off the wall strategies unfortunately.

If you added those two cards along with SDT and Second Sunrise I would agree for that being the basis of the banned list.

As I saw someone else suggest in another thread, banning Pyrite Spellbomb would probably have fixed the timing issues. Krark-Clan Ironworks and Grapeshot strategies win much faster.

Quote from ktkenshinx

Looking at the banlist, the following cards are probably in the "relatively broken" category. They aren't as powerful as Necropotence in the absolute sense, but in this particular format, they are just as dangerous given our card pool.

• Ancient Den
  
• Blazing Shoal
  
• Chrome Mox
  
• Cloudpost
  
• Dread Return
  
• Glimpse of Nature
  
• Great Furnace
  
• Hypergenesis
  
• Mental Misstep
  
• Punishing Fire
  
• Rite of Flame
  
• Seat of the Synod
  
• Skullclamp
  
• Tree of Tales
  
• Umezawa's Jitte
  
• Vault of Whispers

These cards are a sort of "core group" of broken Modern cards. Given the format's card pool, these are cards that either don't have good answers (most decks actually can't answer a turn 2 Hypergenesis or turn 3 Dread Return + Bridge from Below swarms) or unduly warp the format towards certain strategies (Punishing Fire means no 1-2 toughness creatures). Future printings might make these cards fairer for Modern, but until then, these cards need to stay where they are.

But as you suggested, some of the other cards just don't map onto that list. Ponder and Preordain are not broken draw engines by any means. Green Sun's Zenith is not even Survival of the Fittest relative to our format. Even Ancestral Vision is no Ancestral Recall, not even relative to the cards in our format.

So this is where I see the laughable part of the banlist. The relative power of one half of the banlist is so much higher than that of the other. What on earth is Wild Nacatl doing on a banlist with Skullclamp? Even looking at the Modern cardpool as a basis of comparison, we are hard pressed to justify bannings like Preordain.

To my mind, there were two reasons for them to ban Preordain & Ponder:

1) To undermine combo decks. Regardless of weather or not you played Storm, Twin or anything in between these cards helped you dig through your deck and they did it at laughable costs.
2) To make the format "different" from Legacy. Honestly, if both of those were around, Delver decks would probably be major contenders. However, since those decks are already good in Legacy perhaps it was thought that it didn't need another format in which this was so.

Regarding Green Sun's Zenith: don't get your hopes up about seeing this again. The card is too reliable as a tutor to allow it to leave. It's not on the same power level that Demonic Tutor is but in Modern with it's comparatively constrained card pool it might as well be.

Ancestral Vision could probably be safely unbanned at any time, but as they've mentioned when the format was being founded they don't want powered-up decks from old Extended to clog up the format's development.

That's the bottom line really. They are trying to find a niche for the format that would make it different from the other larger formats to date. Unfortunately, that takes a lot of time, trial & error. Until they figure out what they want with it the smart thing is probably to stay the hell away. Play it only during PTQ season (or if a GP pops up here and there) but don't invest yourself in a format that adds new cards to it's banlist every three months.

Quote from Kaneda

i remember when people could deal with certain cards are they just to lazy to search for an answer an sb it?

That makes no sense. The ban wasn't because there was no answer to it, the ban was for time issues during sanctioned events.

It is hard to argue against WotC's reasoning for banning Second Sunrise. I was slightly surprised they hit Sunrise rather than Lotus Bloom or Reshape, but they are correct it is the card in the deck that is the most narrow. Removing it from the format hurts other decks much less than removing one of the other options.

Eggs did not get a ban for power reasons. Eggs did not get a ban for being too fast. Eggs got banned for the same reason Sensei's Divining Top got banned. It slowed down tournaments.

Not just slow, bad, mediocre players either. Everyone who played it had the potential to drag out the tournament for a round. It is possible, albeit unlikely, for an aggro vs aggro deck to go to time. Control vs Control is more likely. The point is, sometimes a match will go to time. When a match goes to time, extra turns start. Active player turn 0, Nonactive player turn 1, all the way to 5 turns total (we all know this, I know). Assuming an eggs player is in a match that has gone to time, what do you think he or she will do on turn 4 or 5? The only option is to attempt to go off. There is no drawback for that individual player. When an eggs player attempts to go off, that turn will take 10 or more minutes.

So every time an eggs player goes to time, they will take a 10 minute turn, it would be stupid not to. This doesn't even account for eggs players being more likely to go to time, which I am sure is the case. Many pros have said in articles they considered playing it, but dismissed for fear of going to time.

Other than what got cooked for breakfast, I am so excited about the Modern format now. I am a huge advocate and currently have a 9 deck paper gauntlet (planning on adding 3 more soon). It is extremely fun and fulfilling. It is a highly interactive format that rewards knowledge of the format and of one's own deck. If you are considering whether to jump in, I suggest diving. There is a huge array of decks and deck types to play.

Modern magic is about creatures and combat. There is room for decks without creatures, but they must be interactive. Decks like ANT and High Tide are fun to play, but it is honestly a different kind of magic. Decks that can interact with each other are more fun to play against each other.

Quote from Sensei"s Divining Tech

Not just slow, bad, mediocre players either. Everyone who played it had the potential to drag out the tournament for a round. It is possible, albeit unlikely, for an aggro vs aggro deck to go to time. Control vs Control is more likely. The point is, sometimes a match will go to time. When a match goes to time, extra turns start. Active player turn 0, Nonactive player turn 1, all the way to 5 turns total (we all know this, I know). Assuming an eggs player is in a match that has gone to time, what do you think he or she will do on turn 4 or 5? The only option is to attempt to go off. There is no drawback for that individual player. When an eggs player attempts to go off, that turn will take 10 or more minutes.

So every time an eggs player goes to time, they will take a 10 minute turn, it would be stupid not to. This doesn't even account for eggs players being more likely to go to time, which I am sure is the case. Many pros have said in articles they considered playing it, but dismissed for fear of going to time.

So do you agree that the better solution would have been to put a time limit on overtime? 5 turns or 10 minutes, whichever comes first. That eliminates the problem of eggs in Modern as well as eliminates problems with any future deck, and decks in Legacy like eggs and High Tide. One rule change that would solve everything.

Kinda dissapointed to see second sunrise get hit. all it is going to make me do is play an even slower version of the deck, with just 4 faith's rewards.

If the Eggs problem continues then I expect Faith's Reward to get a ban as well in the next announcement.

Go build Twin. Or Pod. Or Pyromancer's Ascension. Or Living End...

Quote from John Doe

Delver decks were playable and Tier 1 without Ponder and Preordain in Modern. The problem was the Ravnica block and the rising of Jund. Jund was very strong against those decks, especially because it packed Abrupt Decay. Supreme Verdict didn't help as well, though it didn't changed the format like Decay did.

Although different, some old card wouldn't hurt the format. I'm thinking about Opt here.

Except Raka decks without Delver are better.

If a deck is decent but a version of the deck that doesn't run it is better, it's not actually playable.


In any case, I'd like to see Stifle, CSpell, Ancestral Visions and Innocent Blood in the format, personally. Y'know, nice fair cards that benefit control more than the rest of the world.

Quote from Aazadan

So do you agree that the better solution would have been to put a time limit on overtime? 5 turns or 10 minutes, whichever comes first. That eliminates the problem of eggs in Modern as well as eliminates problems with any future deck, and decks in Legacy like eggs and High Tide. One rule change that would solve everything.

actually, it introduces a huge problem namely: the person in the inferior position is going to start playing slooooooowly. It's just what's going to happen. People will force draws by thinking more than they would have. You can't have a judge nanny every single turn either, so nothing can be done >.<

Why didn't they just ban Lotus Bloom? Eggs can and will still be played. Just replace Second Sunrise with Noxious Revival and recur Faith's Reward. WOTC didn't fix the problem, they just bought it more time.

Quote from taker324

Why didn't they just ban Lotus Bloom? Eggs can and will still be played. Just replace Second Sunrise with Noxious Revival and recur Faith's Reward. WOTC didn't fix the problem, they just bought it more time.

I appreciate that Wizards was conservative in its ban. Sure, they could have banned Bloom and/or Faith's Reward to completely kill the deck, but that's an overly harsh position to combo. By just banning Sunrise, Wizards signaled to Modern players that it wants combo in the format. Bloom itself is a very fair card. Suspend makes it an almost explicitly fair, turn 4 combo deck, and it would be a shame for other decks like Hive Mind and even good old DRAGONSTORM to lose such a tool.

Although the Wizards ban might not have ended the deck forever, this is for the best; it shows that Wizards wants combo to exist in the format, just not at any overly oppressive level (or, in the case of Eggs, time consuming level).

Quote from taker324

Why didn't they just ban Lotus Bloom? Eggs can and will still be played. Just replace Second Sunrise with Noxious Revival and recur Faith's Reward. WOTC didn't fix the problem, they just bought it more time.

Because bloom is used in other decks. Not just eggs.

Quote from Stille_Nacht

actually, it introduces a huge problem namely: the person in the inferior position is going to start playing slooooooowly. It's just what's going to happen. People will force draws by thinking more than they would have. You can't have a judge nanny every single turn either, so nothing can be done >.<

That already exists with the timer. It's what a slow play infraction is for.

Quote from 4thDimentionalBubble

Because bloom is used in other decks. Not just eggs.

Seething song was played in other decks. Not just storm.


It was most likely banned because they felt that the cheaper of the recursion spells (needing only one lotus bloom) was the one to hit.

Quote from Stille_Nacht

actually, it introduces a huge problem namely: the person in the inferior position is going to start playing slooooooowly. It's just what's going to happen. People will force draws by thinking more than they would have. You can't have a judge nanny every single turn either, so nothing can be done >.<

Judges are already required to nanny matches that go to time....you've never noticed that every match that goes to turns has a judge standing over it?

The Banned thread is now back opened. This thread will be closed and we will go back to using the rule that banned talk must use the official thread only. Please continue here.