Having a hand full of rancor and no creatures to enchant with it/the multiple pump and evasion spells that Infect decks use is still an inconsistent and otherwise crappy deck that is closer to tier 3 than it is to being anywhere near competitive. It doesn't have any resiliency.
Also, since we're comparing Legacy to Modern again I just thought I'd throw this out there; if Rancor is so good WHY IS NOTHING in Legacy using it that's competitive? Outside of a one of in Enchantress, a deck that isn't completely unfathomable to be a Modern deck btw there's no other deck that even uses it. I mean a deck with 4 Kor Spiritdancer could be something, but eh.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Having a hand full of rancor and no creatures to enchant with it/the multiple pump and evasion spells that Infect decks use is still an inconsistent and otherwise crappy deck that is closer to tier 3 than it is to being anywhere near competitive. It doesn't have any resiliency.
You could make that claim about any deck. I think you will be surprised how much of an effect rancor will have.
Also, since we're comparing Legacy to Modern again I just thought I'd throw this out there; if Rancor is so good WHY IS NOTHING in Legacy using it that's competitive? Outside of a one of in Enchantress, a deck that isn't completely unfathomable to be a Modern deck btw there's no other deck that even uses it. I mean a deck with 4 Kor Spiritdancer could be something, but eh.
Actually G/X stompy was a deck in the early days of Legacy. As the card pool grew, other decks just out classed it. Its still played here and there. Just not as common as it was in the beginning.
Remember infect only has to deal 10 damage instead of 20.
Also, since we're comparing Legacy to Modern again I just thought I'd throw this out there; if Rancor is so good WHY IS NOTHING in Legacy using it that's competitive? Outside of a one of in Enchantress, a deck that isn't completely unfathomable to be a Modern deck btw there's no other deck that even uses it. I mean a deck with 4 Kor Spiritdancer could be something, but eh.
Legacy is chock full of discard and denial strategies. Yes there are creature decks and those decks aren't all that much faster, but Legacy's midrange decks are at a whole nother tier.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I am really happy that nothing was added to the list. Gives me a little confidence that the almost $1000 bucks I just dropped on Jund was not for nothing.
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Modern GBRJund GBW Junk GBWMelira Pod GB Rock GRTron URStorm UR Delver URTwin RUG Twin UWR Twin UWRKiki Control UWR Control UWR Midrange URWBAffinity GRW Zoo RBurn
Anyone who feels like Wild Nacatl deserves to be unbanned needs to go back and look at the meta before it got the hammer.
That is not a format I am excited to play in.
I'd honestly rather play Zoo mirrors than a lot of the top decks in the format right now, especially Tron and Jund because those decks aren't interesting in the slightest. And Zoo probably has more distinct builds that are viable than there are tier 1 decks right now so its not like you'll even be really playing a mirror match. My biggest issue though is that Delver is ok and Wild Nacatl isn't, sure Delver might be a little more consistently harder to flip turn 2, its in a much better color and it doesn't commit you to playing a minimum of three colors and require you to use a shock+fetch heavy manabase that does at least 5-6 damage to get going.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Having a hand full of rancor and no creatures to enchant with it/the multiple pump and evasion spells that Infect decks use is still an inconsistent and otherwise crappy deck that is closer to tier 3 than it is to being anywhere near competitive. It doesn't have any resiliency.
Also, since we're comparing Legacy to Modern again I just thought I'd throw this out there; if Rancor is so good WHY IS NOTHING in Legacy using it that's competitive? Outside of a one of in Enchantress, a deck that isn't completely unfathomable to be a Modern deck btw there's no other deck that even uses it. I mean a deck with 4 Kor Spiritdancer could be something, but eh.
Rancor will basically be the only playable equipment card in modern when its released. Yes I know its not an actual piece of equipment, but it functions the same way. Just because you drew a bad hand doesn't make it irrelevant to the format.
Rancor is a fantastic card that could possibly find a home in Naya, Infect, Elves, Geist Bant, maybe even Jund.
I'd honestly rather play Zoo mirrors than a lot of the top decks in the format right now, especially Tron and Jund because those decks aren't interesting in the slightest. And Zoo probably has more distinct builds that are viable than there are tier 1 decks right now so its not like you'll even be really playing a mirror match. My biggest issue though is that Delver is ok and Wild Nacatl isn't, sure Delver might be a little more consistently harder to flip turn 2, its in a much better color and it doesn't commit you to playing a minimum of three colors and require you to use a shock+fetch heavy manabase that does at least 5-6 damage to get going.
I think people are missing the point here. The issue is not that Delver of Secrets is close in power level to Wild Nacatl. The point is as Erik Lauer said in the article explaining the bannings:
The problem is that other decks try to use synergy to get rewards, but those rewards aren't any better than the Wild Nacatl.
Delver is using synergy to get rewards and requires a particular build to optimise its benefits. Nacatl doesn't place restrictions on you to get the full power of the card outside of the colours you play.
The other thing is if we want more people to play the format, having only one non-combo deck be viable is not particularly attractive. Sure, some people may love playing different Zoo builds up against each other for 9 rounds but I'm fairly sure they are in the minority.
Tron and Jund may not be "interesting", although I think that is highly subjective, but they win in completely different ways and require completely different strategies to beat, thus diversifying the meta which in turn breeds creativity.
Delver is using synergy to get rewards and requires a particular build to optimise its benefits. Nacatl doesn't place restrictions on you to get the full power of the card outside of the colours you play.
The thing is the kind of deck that Delver goes into is going to want to play the cards that synergize with it regardless of whether Delver of Secrets exists because they are literally the best cards for that type of strategy. Tempo decks are going to want cheap disruption, cheap filtering, and cheap removal no matter what their threats are so you're really not giving anything up to play Delver much the same as Wild Nacatl in Zoo.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
The thing is the kind of deck that Delver goes into is going to want to play the cards that synergize with it regardless of whether Delver of Secrets exists because they are literally the best cards for that type of strategy. Tempo decks are going to want cheap disruption, cheap filtering, and cheap removal no matter what their threats are so you're really not giving anything up to play Delver much the same as Wild Nacatl in Zoo.
Delver still doesn't turn into a 3/2 guaranteed by turn 2. With 8+Fetch lands and shock lands you're nearly guaranteed to have a 3/3 Cat swinging on turn 2. I'm not sure about the math but I'm sure the fetch+shock ratio % is greater than the 20-26 instant and sorcery ratio% to get Delver to flip.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
The cat vs insect question could go back and forth forever. I personally am in the Cat camp side of things, but suffice to say, this arguement goes no where. It is what it is, but Wizards did say they are keeping an eye on him, but mostly standard.
Also dont forget nacatl also means your starting life total is 15ish.
Infect will never be tier 1 because it runs one one-drop. Once you start trying to win the game with Plague Stinger and Blighted Agent, which literally die to every removal spell ever printed, the deck loses a lot of its luster. Also, with the fetch/shock land/phyrexian mana prevalent in modern, infect misses out on a lot of the free damage that other decks capitalize on.
And Nacatl will not be unbanned before Bitterblossom. You can quote me on that.
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Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
I honestly think most of Zoo's pre-Nacatl ban popularity was a result of lazy deckbuilding and defaulting to an easy to play deck that built itself largely.
Nacatl was no doubt good, but it was from from oppressive in the format. Decks like Jund, Pod, Storm, Mono Blue Fae, Aggro Loam, weren't even attempted prior to Nacatl's ban not because of terrible matchups, but mostly due to lazy deck construction and research.
If Nacatl is unbanned, I still feel like Affinity would see lots of play (it's faster and usually has a better combo matchup), RDW would still see the same play as it has (just about as fast as zoo, largely ignores removal) and it wouldn't really be all that much more oppressive against the midrange / control decks around.
Now if they unbanned Zenith & Punishing fire, then that would be another story, but just Nacatl by itself I feel is perfectly fair.
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I honestly think most of Zoo's pre-Nacatl ban popularity was a result of lazy deckbuilding and defaulting to an easy to play deck that built itself largely.
Nacatl was no doubt good, but it was from from oppressive in the format. Decks like Jund, Pod, Storm, Mono Blue Fae, Aggro Loam, weren't even attempted prior to Nacatl's ban not because of terrible matchups, but mostly due to lazy deck construction and research.
If Nacatl is unbanned, I still feel like Affinity would see lots of play (it's faster and usually has a better combo matchup), RDW would still see the same play as it has (just about as fast as zoo, largely ignores removal) and it wouldn't really be all that much more oppressive against the midrange / control decks around.
Now if they unbanned Zenith & Punishing fire, then that would be another story, but just Nacatl by itself I feel is perfectly fair.
Um.
Wild Nacatal is absolutely impossible for a slower deck to deal with. Yeah, you have Lightning Bolt for Red, PtE for white and Repeal for blue, but you have to actually have those in your hand. I really did try to play control decks, for instance, when Nacatal was legal and it was really an uphill battle as soon as that card hit the board. The fact that you're even suggesting lazy deck building in regards to the Nacatal ban is ridiculous since I and many others I know really did try to make certain unfavorable archetypes favorable pre Nacatal ban. It was hard since you knew Zoo was a large % of the meta game.
I am by no means a bad deck builder. I realized Repeal in a zoo meta game was a pretty good card, but they had PunishingWillows engine, jund had early disruption and combo decks were everywhere. It was impossible to prepare for all of it.
Modern is a crappy format to take a control deck in to. You can not prepare for all the BS you're going to have to face. There's not enough power. I can't make a Stoneblade shell and potentially have a 50% match up against near everything in this meta game for example. You have to settle for starting 17 life totals because of shock lands, giving aggro an edge. You don't have FoW so you auto-lose to Splinter Twin if they resolve Spellskite turn 2 and you don't have the necessary main deck answers to it and you will surely lose to any off the wall-unheard of strategies regardless of your 75 because outside of RUG Delver, Affinity, Jund & Twin I just don't feel there is a viable archetype capable of performing above 50% in Modern.
And before the conservative types grab their pitch forks; I'm aware this isn't supposed to be a power downed legacy. But if it's supposed to be a powered-up Standard they're failing on that part. Modern is diverse, sure, but the defined top tier are near cemented at this moment and the only thing changing that is new cards or un bans. And I don't expect any unbans ever.
You can live in denial all you want. This format is still too young to have any smaller of a ban list. If they unbanned SFM, Jace, Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Glimpse of Nature and Chrome Mox we would have a completely different meta game with a strong control presence, and a push to combo. The only way to off set this would be to give aggro back Nacatal & GSZ and that would surely be fair given what control and combo were given.
I really do feel like modern could change for the better if the above cards were unbanned. This ban list is in fear of decks over taking. No one single deck can run Modern when there are other powerful strategies doing nearly as busted things.
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I honestly think most of Zoo's pre-Nacatl ban popularity was a result of lazy deckbuilding and defaulting to an easy to play deck that built itself largely.
Nacatl was no doubt good, but it was from from oppressive in the format. Decks like Jund, Pod, Storm, Mono Blue Fae, Aggro Loam, weren't even attempted prior to Nacatl's ban not because of terrible matchups, but mostly due to lazy deck construction and research.
If Nacatl is unbanned, I still feel like Affinity would see lots of play (it's faster and usually has a better combo matchup), RDW would still see the same play as it has (just about as fast as zoo, largely ignores removal) and it wouldn't really be all that much more oppressive against the midrange / control decks around.
Now if they unbanned Zenith & Punishing fire, then that would be another story, but just Nacatl by itself I feel is perfectly fair.
I think that this is the truth on the matter. Nacatl and punishing fire where banned at the same time. So the idea is that maybe the meta has evolved to a point where Nacatl isn't going to be as dominant as it once was. I feel that it being on the list is taking a major incentive away from naya colored decks and therefore most of those are evolving into Jund or Bant style builds.
One day I feel that Nacatl will be unbanned. It wasn't this time, and probably not even the next, but now that wotc has a solid list they can go back and re-evaluate.
@Infallible- I was with you in your last post until you printed this
You can live in denial all you want. This format is still too young to have any smaller of a ban list. If they unbanned SFM, Jace, Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Glimpse of Nature and Chrome Mox we would have a completely different meta game with a strong control presence, and a push to combo. The only way to off set this would be to give aggro back Nacatal & GSZ and that would surely be fair given what control and combo were given.
I really do feel like modern could change for the better if the above cards were unbanned. This ban list is in fear of decks over taking. No one single deck can run Modern when there are other powerful strategies doing nearly as busted things.
You do understand they are trying to make Modern a turn 4 format that has a lower power level of Legacy. Unbanning the cards you mentioned, people would be able to more or less port over decks from Legacy with very little changes and power loss. Unbanning the cards you mentioned would push the decks much closer to Legacy and too far away from Standard. Also, I would believe a few decks would break the turn 4 rule, not just break it, but smash it.
The way to manipulate the meta of the format is little changes slowly. In that aspect I feel they are doing a great job.
@Infallible- I was with you in your last post until you printed this
You do understand they are trying to make Modern a turn 4 format that has a lower power level of Legacy. Unbanning the cards you mentioned, people would be able to more or less port over decks from Legacy with very little changes and power loss. Unbanning the cards you mentioned would push the decks much closer to Legacy and too far away from Standard. Also, I would believe a few decks would break the turn 4 rule, not just break it, but smash it.
The way to manipulate the meta of the format is little changes slowly. In that aspect I feel they are doing a great job.
I haven't really seen the Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision, Sword of the Meek, Glimpse of Nature decks running rampant in Legacy. If anything, I think these cards should be given a home in Modern, since they're not quite good enough for Legacy. (Yes, I know Ancestral Vision was played for about a week when Misstep slowed the whole format down by a turn or two, but the card's unplayable now)
And Glimpse decks should be tuned down to not break the turn 4 rule, I agree. Not sure how yo go about that, or if it's even possible, but I think it's worth a shot for the sake of getting new decks into the format.
I haven't really seen the Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision, Sword of the Meek, Glimpse of Nature decks running rampant in Legacy. If anything, I think these cards should be given a home in Modern, since they're not quite good enough for Legacy. (Yes, I know Ancestral Vision was played for about a week when Misstep slowed the whole format down by a turn or two, but the card's unplayable now)
And Glimpse decks should be tuned down to not break the turn 4 rule, I agree. Not sure how yo go about that, or if it's even possible, but I think it's worth a shot for the sake of getting new decks into the format.
There's no reason to unban Glimpse of Nature. The card is just plain dumb. It just screams "combo with me this turn".
The rest should be tested, but fae is already a decent modern deck. Why make it so much better?
I haven't really seen the Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision, Sword of the Meek, Glimpse of Nature decks running rampant in Legacy. If anything, I think these cards should be given a home in Modern, since they're not quite good enough for Legacy. (Yes, I know Ancestral Vision was played for about a week when Misstep slowed the whole format down by a turn or two, but the card's unplayable now)
And Glimpse decks should be tuned down to not break the turn 4 rule, I agree. Not sure how yo go about that, or if it's even possible, but I think it's worth a shot for the sake of getting new decks into the format.
You have to remember those cards you have mentioned are not as powerful in Legacy because they have a larger pool and more answers to them. Just because a card isnt powerful in Legacy, does not mean it would over powered in Modern. 2 different formats with different card pools.
Tho Elves is a Legacy deck that can do well depending on the meta of the tournament. Porting Legacy elves into Modern would be bad for the format.
Think of it this way, Standard is level 0, Legacy is level 11. They want Modern to fall roughly around 5 on the scale between the 2 formats, not 9 or 10. I think right now the level of Modern is roughly a 6 or 7, slightly TOO powerful. Adding powerful cards will not lower the power level of the format.
They need Modern to be a format with its own identity with a power level that falls inbetween Legacy and Standard for Modern to survive.
Think of it this way, Standard is level 0, Legacy is level 11. They want Modern to fall roughly around 5 on the scale between the 2 formats, not 9 or 10. I think right now the level of Modern is roughly a 6 or 7, slightly TOO powerful. Adding powerful cards will not lower the power level of the format.
They need Modern to be a format with its own identity with a power level that falls inbetween Legacy and Standard for Modern to survive.
The thing is, due to the nature of the format being non-rotating, the powerlevel of Modern is only going to increase as more cards are printed which is going to push its power level closer to Legacy. And while there will always be a gap in power level due to card pools, power creep is slowly pushing the staples in both formats, particularly on the creature side, towards the same point. Just look at the average legacy deck, outside of manabases, a large (and growing) number of cards are from the "Modern Era" of magic or have been reprinted in the Modern Era meaning they are in the potential card pool. And I think outside of a few irreplaceable staples (FoW, Brainstorm, Stp, etc.) the number of Modern Era cards in Legacy decks is only going to increase. So if we go by your scale, Modern is more than likely going to slowly drift up to a 9 as more cards are printed, reducing the power level gap between the two. This obviously can be curtailed but it would require WotC to do one of three things: they would have drastically reduce the power level of future sets, they would have to actively not print cards for older formats (this is really hard to do), or they would have to aggressively ban cards. All three of this options are likely to met with a lot of resistance and I'd argue the last option would probably kill the format as can be seen earlier in the formats history were I know a lot of people were staying away from modern because the banned list kept growing and they didn't want to build a deck and have it banned out of the format.
Overall I think the Modern format is in a pretty decent place at the moment, the power level seems fine, perhaps a little low for some archetypes, but for the most part it hits the mark. And while I think there are some cards that could come off, I do think its probably correct to try and keep the banned list stable for the time being because shaking up the format too much could cause harm to the format.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
The thing is, due to the nature of the format being non-rotating, the powerlevel of Modern is only going to increase as more cards are printed which is going to push its power level closer to Legacy. And while there will always be a gap in power level due to card pools, power creep is slowly pushing the staples in both formats, particularly on the creature side, towards the same point. Just look at the average legacy deck, outside of manabases, a large (and growing) number of cards are from the "Modern Era" of magic or have been reprinted in the Modern Era meaning they are in the potential card pool. And I think outside of a few irreplaceable staples (FoW, Brainstorm, Stp, etc.) the number of Modern Era cards in Legacy decks is only going to increase. So if we go by your scale, Modern is more than likely going to slowly drift up to a 9 as more cards are printed, reducing the power level gap between the two. This obviously can be curtailed but it would require WotC to do one of three things: they would have drastically reduce the power level of future sets, they would have to actively not print cards for older formats (this is really hard to do), or they would have to aggressively ban cards. All three of this options are likely to met with a lot of resistance and I'd argue the last option would probably kill the format as can be seen earlier in the formats history were I know a lot of people were staying away from modern because the banned list kept growing and they didn't want to build a deck and have it banned out of the format.
In my opinion if Wotc lets Modern creep up toward the power level of Legacy, thats bad for Legacy and could mean Wotc is looking to kill off Legacy all together, which may have been their plan all along.
But I disagree about bannings being bad for the format. If Wotc is trying to keep the power level somewhere between Standard and Legacy, in reality bannings is the only way to do it.
I agree with Feaor completely. The average top non-combo legacy decklist has a ton of modern cards in it. If you look at Maverick, Tempo Thresh & Stoneblade the only non modern cards you see outside of the mana base are FoW's, Mom's, StP and the occasional set of counterspell/stifle. There isn't much making these decks worlds different.
Like it or not Modern is going to turn into a Legacy powered format unless the ban list looks like a kin to Yugioh's as time goes on. THey can't just reprint FoW for modern since if there's a large ban list there is absolutely no need for FoW if combo is kept to a turn 3-5 win. Yet if they DID give Modern FoW we wouldn't have to worry about a large portion of the combo cards on the ban list and they could come off. But they don't want modern to look like legacy. We're in a really awful position here.
This is just thrown here for the hell of it; if you take RUG Delver in Modern and face it against Tempo Thresh in Legacy you will notice fundamentally they are exactly the same decks and win around the same amount of time except the modern version is actually faster in the modern setting since it doesn't have to worry about running into Stoneblade decks along with the ass load of BS combo decks in Legacy.
Take that as you will. Tempo decks run Magic and truly flourish when there is no powerful control and combo decks be it from a ban list or legacy style hating out of archetypes.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
There's no reason to unban Glimpse of Nature. The card is just plain dumb. It just screams "combo with me this turn".
The rest should be tested, but fae is already a decent modern deck. Why make it so much better?
Glimpse is a (very) safe ban.
I don't know if fae would become too good with BB, but right now I see it lower than zoo's power level.
(Also, he's a blood bender! No more Korra until next year tho T.T)
Glimpse isn't even that broken. I thought it was until I played a couple games against legacy elf ball. The card is a dead draw often and this is a format that can pull of a turn 3 flying spaghetti monster.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
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Also, since we're comparing Legacy to Modern again I just thought I'd throw this out there; if Rancor is so good WHY IS NOTHING in Legacy using it that's competitive? Outside of a one of in Enchantress, a deck that isn't completely unfathomable to be a Modern deck btw there's no other deck that even uses it. I mean a deck with 4 Kor Spiritdancer could be something, but eh.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
You could make that claim about any deck. I think you will be surprised how much of an effect rancor will have.
Actually G/X stompy was a deck in the early days of Legacy. As the card pool grew, other decks just out classed it. Its still played here and there. Just not as common as it was in the beginning.
Remember infect only has to deal 10 damage instead of 20.
Legacy is chock full of discard and denial strategies. Yes there are creature decks and those decks aren't all that much faster, but Legacy's midrange decks are at a whole nother tier.
Also, why do you need Rancor when you have SFM.
That is not a format I am excited to play in.
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
GBW Melira Pod
GB Rock
GR Tron
UR Storm
UR Delver
UR Twin
RUG Twin
UWR Twin
UWR Kiki Control
UWR Control
UWR Midrange
URWB Affinity
GRW Zoo
R Burn
I'd honestly rather play Zoo mirrors than a lot of the top decks in the format right now, especially Tron and Jund because those decks aren't interesting in the slightest. And Zoo probably has more distinct builds that are viable than there are tier 1 decks right now so its not like you'll even be really playing a mirror match. My biggest issue though is that Delver is ok and Wild Nacatl isn't, sure Delver might be a little more consistently harder to flip turn 2, its in a much better color and it doesn't commit you to playing a minimum of three colors and require you to use a shock+fetch heavy manabase that does at least 5-6 damage to get going.
Rancor will basically be the only playable equipment card in modern when its released. Yes I know its not an actual piece of equipment, but it functions the same way. Just because you drew a bad hand doesn't make it irrelevant to the format.
Rancor is a fantastic card that could possibly find a home in Naya, Infect, Elves, Geist Bant, maybe even Jund.
I think people are missing the point here. The issue is not that Delver of Secrets is close in power level to Wild Nacatl. The point is as Erik Lauer said in the article explaining the bannings:
Delver is using synergy to get rewards and requires a particular build to optimise its benefits. Nacatl doesn't place restrictions on you to get the full power of the card outside of the colours you play.
The other thing is if we want more people to play the format, having only one non-combo deck be viable is not particularly attractive. Sure, some people may love playing different Zoo builds up against each other for 9 rounds but I'm fairly sure they are in the minority.
Tron and Jund may not be "interesting", although I think that is highly subjective, but they win in completely different ways and require completely different strategies to beat, thus diversifying the meta which in turn breeds creativity.
The thing is the kind of deck that Delver goes into is going to want to play the cards that synergize with it regardless of whether Delver of Secrets exists because they are literally the best cards for that type of strategy. Tempo decks are going to want cheap disruption, cheap filtering, and cheap removal no matter what their threats are so you're really not giving anything up to play Delver much the same as Wild Nacatl in Zoo.
Delver still doesn't turn into a 3/2 guaranteed by turn 2. With 8+Fetch lands and shock lands you're nearly guaranteed to have a 3/3 Cat swinging on turn 2. I'm not sure about the math but I'm sure the fetch+shock ratio % is greater than the 20-26 instant and sorcery ratio% to get Delver to flip.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Also dont forget nacatl also means your starting life total is 15ish.
And Nacatl will not be unbanned before Bitterblossom. You can quote me on that.
Nacatl was no doubt good, but it was from from oppressive in the format. Decks like Jund, Pod, Storm, Mono Blue Fae, Aggro Loam, weren't even attempted prior to Nacatl's ban not because of terrible matchups, but mostly due to lazy deck construction and research.
If Nacatl is unbanned, I still feel like Affinity would see lots of play (it's faster and usually has a better combo matchup), RDW would still see the same play as it has (just about as fast as zoo, largely ignores removal) and it wouldn't really be all that much more oppressive against the midrange / control decks around.
Now if they unbanned Zenith & Punishing fire, then that would be another story, but just Nacatl by itself I feel is perfectly fair.
Um.
Wild Nacatal is absolutely impossible for a slower deck to deal with. Yeah, you have Lightning Bolt for Red, PtE for white and Repeal for blue, but you have to actually have those in your hand. I really did try to play control decks, for instance, when Nacatal was legal and it was really an uphill battle as soon as that card hit the board. The fact that you're even suggesting lazy deck building in regards to the Nacatal ban is ridiculous since I and many others I know really did try to make certain unfavorable archetypes favorable pre Nacatal ban. It was hard since you knew Zoo was a large % of the meta game.
I am by no means a bad deck builder. I realized Repeal in a zoo meta game was a pretty good card, but they had PunishingWillows engine, jund had early disruption and combo decks were everywhere. It was impossible to prepare for all of it.
Modern is a crappy format to take a control deck in to. You can not prepare for all the BS you're going to have to face. There's not enough power. I can't make a Stoneblade shell and potentially have a 50% match up against near everything in this meta game for example. You have to settle for starting 17 life totals because of shock lands, giving aggro an edge. You don't have FoW so you auto-lose to Splinter Twin if they resolve Spellskite turn 2 and you don't have the necessary main deck answers to it and you will surely lose to any off the wall-unheard of strategies regardless of your 75 because outside of RUG Delver, Affinity, Jund & Twin I just don't feel there is a viable archetype capable of performing above 50% in Modern.
And before the conservative types grab their pitch forks; I'm aware this isn't supposed to be a power downed legacy. But if it's supposed to be a powered-up Standard they're failing on that part. Modern is diverse, sure, but the defined top tier are near cemented at this moment and the only thing changing that is new cards or un bans. And I don't expect any unbans ever.
You can live in denial all you want. This format is still too young to have any smaller of a ban list. If they unbanned SFM, Jace, Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Glimpse of Nature and Chrome Mox we would have a completely different meta game with a strong control presence, and a push to combo. The only way to off set this would be to give aggro back Nacatal & GSZ and that would surely be fair given what control and combo were given.
I really do feel like modern could change for the better if the above cards were unbanned. This ban list is in fear of decks over taking. No one single deck can run Modern when there are other powerful strategies doing nearly as busted things.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I think that this is the truth on the matter. Nacatl and punishing fire where banned at the same time. So the idea is that maybe the meta has evolved to a point where Nacatl isn't going to be as dominant as it once was. I feel that it being on the list is taking a major incentive away from naya colored decks and therefore most of those are evolving into Jund or Bant style builds.
One day I feel that Nacatl will be unbanned. It wasn't this time, and probably not even the next, but now that wotc has a solid list they can go back and re-evaluate.
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
You do understand they are trying to make Modern a turn 4 format that has a lower power level of Legacy. Unbanning the cards you mentioned, people would be able to more or less port over decks from Legacy with very little changes and power loss. Unbanning the cards you mentioned would push the decks much closer to Legacy and too far away from Standard. Also, I would believe a few decks would break the turn 4 rule, not just break it, but smash it.
The way to manipulate the meta of the format is little changes slowly. In that aspect I feel they are doing a great job.
I haven't really seen the Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision, Sword of the Meek, Glimpse of Nature decks running rampant in Legacy. If anything, I think these cards should be given a home in Modern, since they're not quite good enough for Legacy. (Yes, I know Ancestral Vision was played for about a week when Misstep slowed the whole format down by a turn or two, but the card's unplayable now)
And Glimpse decks should be tuned down to not break the turn 4 rule, I agree. Not sure how yo go about that, or if it's even possible, but I think it's worth a shot for the sake of getting new decks into the format.
There's no reason to unban Glimpse of Nature. The card is just plain dumb. It just screams "combo with me this turn".
The rest should be tested, but fae is already a decent modern deck. Why make it so much better?
You have to remember those cards you have mentioned are not as powerful in Legacy because they have a larger pool and more answers to them. Just because a card isnt powerful in Legacy, does not mean it would over powered in Modern. 2 different formats with different card pools.
Tho Elves is a Legacy deck that can do well depending on the meta of the tournament. Porting Legacy elves into Modern would be bad for the format.
Think of it this way, Standard is level 0, Legacy is level 11. They want Modern to fall roughly around 5 on the scale between the 2 formats, not 9 or 10. I think right now the level of Modern is roughly a 6 or 7, slightly TOO powerful. Adding powerful cards will not lower the power level of the format.
They need Modern to be a format with its own identity with a power level that falls inbetween Legacy and Standard for Modern to survive.
The thing is, due to the nature of the format being non-rotating, the powerlevel of Modern is only going to increase as more cards are printed which is going to push its power level closer to Legacy. And while there will always be a gap in power level due to card pools, power creep is slowly pushing the staples in both formats, particularly on the creature side, towards the same point. Just look at the average legacy deck, outside of manabases, a large (and growing) number of cards are from the "Modern Era" of magic or have been reprinted in the Modern Era meaning they are in the potential card pool. And I think outside of a few irreplaceable staples (FoW, Brainstorm, Stp, etc.) the number of Modern Era cards in Legacy decks is only going to increase. So if we go by your scale, Modern is more than likely going to slowly drift up to a 9 as more cards are printed, reducing the power level gap between the two. This obviously can be curtailed but it would require WotC to do one of three things: they would have drastically reduce the power level of future sets, they would have to actively not print cards for older formats (this is really hard to do), or they would have to aggressively ban cards. All three of this options are likely to met with a lot of resistance and I'd argue the last option would probably kill the format as can be seen earlier in the formats history were I know a lot of people were staying away from modern because the banned list kept growing and they didn't want to build a deck and have it banned out of the format.
Overall I think the Modern format is in a pretty decent place at the moment, the power level seems fine, perhaps a little low for some archetypes, but for the most part it hits the mark. And while I think there are some cards that could come off, I do think its probably correct to try and keep the banned list stable for the time being because shaking up the format too much could cause harm to the format.
In my opinion if Wotc lets Modern creep up toward the power level of Legacy, thats bad for Legacy and could mean Wotc is looking to kill off Legacy all together, which may have been their plan all along.
But I disagree about bannings being bad for the format. If Wotc is trying to keep the power level somewhere between Standard and Legacy, in reality bannings is the only way to do it.
Like it or not Modern is going to turn into a Legacy powered format unless the ban list looks like a kin to Yugioh's as time goes on. THey can't just reprint FoW for modern since if there's a large ban list there is absolutely no need for FoW if combo is kept to a turn 3-5 win. Yet if they DID give Modern FoW we wouldn't have to worry about a large portion of the combo cards on the ban list and they could come off. But they don't want modern to look like legacy. We're in a really awful position here.
This is just thrown here for the hell of it; if you take RUG Delver in Modern and face it against Tempo Thresh in Legacy you will notice fundamentally they are exactly the same decks and win around the same amount of time except the modern version is actually faster in the modern setting since it doesn't have to worry about running into Stoneblade decks along with the ass load of BS combo decks in Legacy.
Take that as you will. Tempo decks run Magic and truly flourish when there is no powerful control and combo decks be it from a ban list or legacy style hating out of archetypes.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Glimpse is a (very) safe ban.
I don't know if fae would become too good with BB, but right now I see it lower than zoo's power level.
(Also, he's a blood bender! No more Korra until next year tho T.T)
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible