I know its a different deck, but how come noone plays UW Delver in modern? You know, the deck that was tearing up standard a year ago.
Because Path to Exile is anti-synergistic with Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, and Remand. Because we have so many single mana removal spells, we don't need white for the Stony Silence since we have a pretty good matchup against Affinity already.
I forgot who it was that commented but Path to Exile just isn't a great card in Modern because of the ramp. That's why Lightning Bolt is always going to be the preferred removal in Modern even if it hits fewer cards.
Because Path to Exile is anti-synergistic with Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, and Remand. Because we have so many single mana removal spells, we don't need white for the Stony Silence since we have a pretty good matchup against Affinity already.
I forgot who it was that commented but Path to Exile just isn't a great card in Modern because of the ramp. That's why Lightning Bolt is always going to be the preferred removal in Modern even if it hits fewer cards.
I'm not talking about Path to Exile - I'm talking about Geist of St. Traft
I'm not talking about Path to Exile - I'm talking about Geist of St. Traft
Equally all meta'd out.
Creature decks can block you all day, and tapping out against any deck turn 3 can lead to a quick loss. Then there's the consistency problem where if you don't hit your Geist, you really don't have a way to win for a while.
Red is just too good not to play, as seen at Detroit by colors at the top tables. UWR seems clunky, and there's not really a good reason to play white.
RUG would just be a worse Jund / Junk, since you're tapping out and losing the ability to counterspell stuff in the early turns and aside goyf your creatures are too small. I really want to try something with mystic snake though.
That is completely wrong, I've been playing RUG Delver since it was the best deck in modern (cause, you know, it was! like 1.5 years ago...) and been playing it now again with the resurgence of UR Delver. I always win against that deck because it's like playing a mirror but with the opponents worst nightmare, Tarmogoyf. I be trollin'.
Btw, the way to play RUG Delver is not slamming Goyf on turn 2 if you have another creature, but, like any other delver tempo deck, protect your current threat by all means possible never tapping out and, if it dies, dropping the Goyf which will be at least 4/5 already, or more.
From all of my testing I can say that RUG is quite more powerful and probably the future of the deck, but I feel something else still must be done against those Decays and Lilianas which tear us apart.
The RUG Delver which 4-0 'd today is a good starting point
Nothing in that list requires black, why would you care to splash for it? Does black open up sideboard options and hand distruption? I've never heard of anything like that but I'm just guessing here. Thoughtseize is a thing after all.
I'll admit my mayor testings with RUG archetypes are based around the old eternal command deck and not tempo delver, so since you're better trained with the deck I'll acknowledge your words. Nonetheless, I still find it a worse version of Jund / Junk and see a lot of advantages of sticking to UR mainly because of blood moon.
As per your argument: if you're dropping delver t1 and NOT slamming goyf t2, whats the point in running goyf? you're essentially one card less. T3 is the same story again, t4 with leak up is kind of unimpressive. As the meta is right now, I'm sticking to my Stutters in a UR shell for tempo.
What I mean is that, since tempo is such an unique archetype, I've found that it plays fundamentally different to any other magic deck that has ever existed.
You basically have to treat your creature as the most important card in your deck, protect it by all means possible, and then if it ever gets killed, drop another one.
So, even if it's tempting, dropping a Goyf turn 2 if you already have a delver is a mistake if you have counterspells (which you almost certainly do).
It's much better to actually not try to increase the board pressure, get as many hits as possible with the Insect while the opponent desperately tries to get rid of it, and reserve your other creatures in your hand even if it means not utilizing your mana at its full efficiency.
The exception may be fast combo matchups when on the play, when you know that they can't combo you on this turn, and when you are sure that they can't cast Remand, etc.
Now, if you don't have the turn-1 Delver, that's when Goyf really shines, since you can ideally T1 fetch, Serum Visions, T2 2/3 Goyf which is already resistant to Bolt (HUGE DEAL), T3 start to bash with your giant creature and multiple counterspells (probably Leak/Pierce which you can cast one the same turn for added protection!) in hand. It's such a good creature, da Goyf <3
Btw, the way to play RUG Delver is not slamming Goyf on turn 2 if you have another creature, but, like any other delver tempo deck, protect your current threat by all means possible never tapping out and, if it dies, dropping the Goyf which will be at least 4/5 already, or more.
Definitely this, Goyf is awesome if you can afford him. Pretty good post a few above mine describes the line of play for UR or RUG Delver, just protect tha rock all day (shouts out Bobbito).
Undefeated all weekend: I went 2-0 (vs. Gravecrawler) 2-1 (vs. Ooze and Goyf game 1 with no Threads) 2-0 (vs. the mirror with a black splash) Friday night and 2-0 2-0 2-0 (vs. BW Tokens, Naya Pod, and Gifts control) Saturday afternoon running my UR list with no Vendilion Clique (I'll post the list below). This deck is really strong but I am going to invest in some Tarmogoyfs just because I love playing with them so much. I think the main issue with Goyf is that splashing green means I'll have a lot more deckbuilding choices to make, whereas I think my UR list is already pretty optimal. Forked Bolt? Pillar of Flame? Flame Slash? Vedalken Shackles?
To all those having success with Spellstutter Sprite, good on ye. Really love this guy and glad he's shining in Modern; I remember when they released him I had a good couple weeks tearing up Vintage with SSS and Grim Lavamancer. UR is a great archetype in this format since basically all our spells are the best they can be (Serum Visions in place of Ponder is the only real exception); we get Bolt, Clique, Remand, Electrolyze... so much value in one pile. Very happy the discussion's finally rolling and more people are being exposed to the deck.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
18 lands... Cryptic command? What the hell is going on here.
Variance, that's what.
I'm on 22 lands and I mulled 5 games out of the total 8 games to 1 land hands up from 0 land or 1 Mutavault hands. Also got stuck on 1 land 4 out of the 5 games for at least 1 turn after mulling to 6.
I won all 3 games I've played, but that's not as much a testament of the deck as other decks I'm playing against being home brews that aren't nearly as powerful as netdecks, even if they fall under the common archetypes.
18 lands... Cryptic command? What the hell is going on here.
Are UR Delver proponents seriously not familiar with Xerox Theory?
Yes, I consistently cast Cryptic Command. Yes, it often wins me the game when I draw it. I wouldn't want more than two, and I wouldn't run it in splashier lists, but it's entirely supportable - and probably too good to neglect - in UR.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Are UR Delver proponents seriously not familiar with Xerox Theory?
Yes, I consistently cast Cryptic Command. Yes, it often wins me the game when I draw it. I wouldn't want more than two, and I wouldn't run it in splashier lists, but it's entirely supportable - and probably too good to neglect - in UR.
You have a 24% chance of having 1 land or less with 8 cards and 31% with 7 cards. Those are odds. That's odds I'd rather not be playing with. That means you'll have to mull about 1/3 of your hands, which is miserable.
There's little reason not to play with more lands. If you have extra lands, you can just place them on the bottom with Telling Time, Magma Jet, and/or Serum Visions. You get more keepable hands, and you get to play with Mutavault, which is an extra 4 threats.
You also CANNOT afford to be cantripping the first 2 turns because you are not a combo deck. If the opponent sticks a Pyromancer's Ascension, Dark Confidant, or Voice of Resurgence during those turns, you're as good as dead because as a Tempo deck, you lack the answers to deal with threats that go through counters.
You have a 24% chance of having 1 land or less with 8 cards and 31% with 7 cards. Those are odds. That's odds I'd rather not be playing with. That means you'll have to mull about 1/3 of your hands, which is miserable.
There's little reason not to play with more lands. If you have extra lands, you can just place them on the bottom with Telling Time, Magma Jet, and/or Serum Visions. You get more keepable hands, and you get to play with Mutavault, which is an extra 4 threats.
You also CANNOT afford to be cantripping the first 2 turns because you are not a combo deck. If the opponent sticks a Pyromancer's Ascension, Dark Confidant, or Voice of Resurgence during those turns, you're as good as dead because as a Tempo deck, you lack the answers to deal with threats that go through counters.
Whatever you say dude. All I know is I'm very happy with the places 18-land-Command has taken me.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Is it possible to run spellstutter without clique?
Yes. Clique is at best a clock on top of disruption, at worst a three mana Peek that requires a removal. Decks run it as a 2 of, and quite frankly, that's a pretty comfortable spot for the card. I know one possibility is Grim Lavamancer.
Are UR Delver proponents seriously not familiar with Xerox Theory?
Yes, I consistently cast Cryptic Command. Yes, it often wins me the game when I draw it. I wouldn't want more than two, and I wouldn't run it in splashier lists, but it's entirely supportable - and probably too good to neglect - in UR.
It works, it really does. My list only runs 18 lands, but plays 4 serum visions, 2 telling time, and 3 magma jets...these early spells are ridiculously good at helping you find lands if you need them. I don't know for sure, but I seriously doubt I've failed to hit 4 lands in a game with my delver build.
As part of the upcoming forum reorganization, some decks are getting shifted between subforums. Delver is going down to Established and Faeries is going down to Creation. But as we all know, the distinction between these two decks is very nuanced and can be difficult to tell from just looking over datasets. Some lists might get labeled as "Delver" when they are actually closer to "Faeries"; the biggest distinction between the two appears to be the inclusion of either Scion of Oona and/or Mistbind Clique (The latter very rarely on MTGO).
I am looking for your help in trying to figure out what the fairest and most accurate way is to handle these threads. Should they be combined into one? Should they remain distinct? What do you guys think?
As part of the upcoming forum reorganization, some decks are getting shifted between subforums. Delver is going down to Established and Faeries is going down to Creation. But as we all know, the distinction between these two decks is very nuanced and can be difficult to tell from just looking over datasets. Some lists might get labeled as "Delver" when they are actually closer to "Faeries"; the biggest distinction between the two appears to be the inclusion of either Scion of Oona and/or Mistbind Clique (The latter very rarely on MTGO).
I am looking for your help in trying to figure out what the fairest and most accurate way is to handle these threads. Should they be combined into one? Should they remain distinct? What do you guys think?
There's a Delver deck and there's Scion deck, but they're basically the same shell. There's also a Young Pyromancer version and a Spelllstutter version. These all belong under the same URx Tempo deck.
Mono U should be a different deck, and U/B should be a different deck because these decks play out differently and have much different cards.
just name it UR tempo and combine it into one. its the same deck. its like WUR control including restoration angels and snapcasters or just snapcasters.
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just name it UR tempo and combine it into one. its the same deck. its like WUR control including restoration angels and snapcasters or just snapcasters.
Incidentally, the differences between UWR Midrange and UWR Control are also often hard to detect. The big indicator there, at least for me, is Geist. If I see a Geist, it's not counted as UWR Control. But as with Delver/Faeries, that distinction can often be lost when you don't have access to full lists. And even then, it's hard to tell when a deck crosses from Control to Midrange.
I do like the idea of combining both into a URx Tempo primer, consolidating discussion in both threads. Do you think that would muddle the conversation too much? Or is there enough overlap that it would make sense and even add voices to your deck development?
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Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm03Dm2tD0U
Land:
4 Mutavault
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
5 Island
1 Mountain
Non-Creature Spells:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
Sideboard:
3 Stone Rain
2 Blood Moon
2 Dismember
3 Magma Spray
1 Negate
1 Dispel
2 Spellskite
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Because Path to Exile is anti-synergistic with Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, and Remand. Because we have so many single mana removal spells, we don't need white for the Stony Silence since we have a pretty good matchup against Affinity already.
I forgot who it was that commented but Path to Exile just isn't a great card in Modern because of the ramp. That's why Lightning Bolt is always going to be the preferred removal in Modern even if it hits fewer cards.
I'm not talking about Path to Exile - I'm talking about Geist of St. Traft
Equally all meta'd out.
Creature decks can block you all day, and tapping out against any deck turn 3 can lead to a quick loss. Then there's the consistency problem where if you don't hit your Geist, you really don't have a way to win for a while.
Red is just too good not to play, as seen at Detroit by colors at the top tables. UWR seems clunky, and there's not really a good reason to play white.
That is completely wrong, I've been playing RUG Delver since it was the best deck in modern (cause, you know, it was! like 1.5 years ago...) and been playing it now again with the resurgence of UR Delver. I always win against that deck because it's like playing a mirror but with the opponents worst nightmare, Tarmogoyf. I be trollin'.
Btw, the way to play RUG Delver is not slamming Goyf on turn 2 if you have another creature, but, like any other delver tempo deck, protect your current threat by all means possible never tapping out and, if it dies, dropping the Goyf which will be at least 4/5 already, or more.
From all of my testing I can say that RUG is quite more powerful and probably the future of the deck, but I feel something else still must be done against those Decays and Lilianas which tear us apart.
The RUG Delver which 4-0 'd today is a good starting point
Nothing in that list requires black, why would you care to splash for it? Does black open up sideboard options and hand distruption? I've never heard of anything like that but I'm just guessing here. Thoughtseize is a thing after all.
What I mean is that, since tempo is such an unique archetype, I've found that it plays fundamentally different to any other magic deck that has ever existed.
You basically have to treat your creature as the most important card in your deck, protect it by all means possible, and then if it ever gets killed, drop another one.
So, even if it's tempting, dropping a Goyf turn 2 if you already have a delver is a mistake if you have counterspells (which you almost certainly do).
It's much better to actually not try to increase the board pressure, get as many hits as possible with the Insect while the opponent desperately tries to get rid of it, and reserve your other creatures in your hand even if it means not utilizing your mana at its full efficiency.
The exception may be fast combo matchups when on the play, when you know that they can't combo you on this turn, and when you are sure that they can't cast Remand, etc.
Now, if you don't have the turn-1 Delver, that's when Goyf really shines, since you can ideally T1 fetch, Serum Visions, T2 2/3 Goyf which is already resistant to Bolt (HUGE DEAL), T3 start to bash with your giant creature and multiple counterspells (probably Leak/Pierce which you can cast one the same turn for added protection!) in hand. It's such a good creature, da Goyf <3
I've been wondering about a way to do something about that Abrupt Decay killing our Delvers.
Definitely this, Goyf is awesome if you can afford him. Pretty good post a few above mine describes the line of play for UR or RUG Delver, just protect tha rock all day (shouts out Bobbito).
Undefeated all weekend: I went 2-0 (vs. Gravecrawler) 2-1 (vs. Ooze and Goyf game 1 with no Threads) 2-0 (vs. the mirror with a black splash) Friday night and 2-0 2-0 2-0 (vs. BW Tokens, Naya Pod, and Gifts control) Saturday afternoon running my UR list with no Vendilion Clique (I'll post the list below). This deck is really strong but I am going to invest in some Tarmogoyfs just because I love playing with them so much. I think the main issue with Goyf is that splashing green means I'll have a lot more deckbuilding choices to make, whereas I think my UR list is already pretty optimal. Forked Bolt? Pillar of Flame? Flame Slash? Vedalken Shackles?
To all those having success with Spellstutter Sprite, good on ye. Really love this guy and glad he's shining in Modern; I remember when they released him I had a good couple weeks tearing up Vintage with SSS and Grim Lavamancer. UR is a great archetype in this format since basically all our spells are the best they can be (Serum Visions in place of Ponder is the only real exception); we get Bolt, Clique, Remand, Electrolyze... so much value in one pile. Very happy the discussion's finally rolling and more people are being exposed to the deck.
My current list, so far undefeated:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
Instant/Sorcery (27)
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
2 Izzet Charm
2 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
2 Burst Lightning
1 Mana Leak
3 Telling Time
1 Spell Snare
1 Magma Jet
1 Vapor Snag
2 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
5 Island
1 Mountain
2 Sulfur Falls
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Variance, that's what.
I'm on 22 lands and I mulled 5 games out of the total 8 games to 1 land hands up from 0 land or 1 Mutavault hands. Also got stuck on 1 land 4 out of the 5 games for at least 1 turn after mulling to 6.
I won all 3 games I've played, but that's not as much a testament of the deck as other decks I'm playing against being home brews that aren't nearly as powerful as netdecks, even if they fall under the common archetypes.
Are UR Delver proponents seriously not familiar with Xerox Theory?
Yes, I consistently cast Cryptic Command. Yes, it often wins me the game when I draw it. I wouldn't want more than two, and I wouldn't run it in splashier lists, but it's entirely supportable - and probably too good to neglect - in UR.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
You have a 24% chance of having 1 land or less with 8 cards and 31% with 7 cards. Those are odds. That's odds I'd rather not be playing with. That means you'll have to mull about 1/3 of your hands, which is miserable.
There's little reason not to play with more lands. If you have extra lands, you can just place them on the bottom with Telling Time, Magma Jet, and/or Serum Visions. You get more keepable hands, and you get to play with Mutavault, which is an extra 4 threats.
You also CANNOT afford to be cantripping the first 2 turns because you are not a combo deck. If the opponent sticks a Pyromancer's Ascension, Dark Confidant, or Voice of Resurgence during those turns, you're as good as dead because as a Tempo deck, you lack the answers to deal with threats that go through counters.
Whatever you say dude. All I know is I'm very happy with the places 18-land-Command has taken me.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Yes. Clique is at best a clock on top of disruption, at worst a three mana Peek that requires a removal. Decks run it as a 2 of, and quite frankly, that's a pretty comfortable spot for the card. I know one possibility is Grim Lavamancer.
It works, it really does. My list only runs 18 lands, but plays 4 serum visions, 2 telling time, and 3 magma jets...these early spells are ridiculously good at helping you find lands if you need them. I don't know for sure, but I seriously doubt I've failed to hit 4 lands in a game with my delver build.
I am looking for your help in trying to figure out what the fairest and most accurate way is to handle these threads. Should they be combined into one? Should they remain distinct? What do you guys think?
There's a Delver deck and there's Scion deck, but they're basically the same shell. There's also a Young Pyromancer version and a Spelllstutter version. These all belong under the same URx Tempo deck.
Mono U should be a different deck, and U/B should be a different deck because these decks play out differently and have much different cards.
Incidentally, the differences between UWR Midrange and UWR Control are also often hard to detect. The big indicator there, at least for me, is Geist. If I see a Geist, it's not counted as UWR Control. But as with Delver/Faeries, that distinction can often be lost when you don't have access to full lists. And even then, it's hard to tell when a deck crosses from Control to Midrange.
I do like the idea of combining both into a URx Tempo primer, consolidating discussion in both threads. Do you think that would muddle the conversation too much? Or is there enough overlap that it would make sense and even add voices to your deck development?