After a bunch of games, I've decided not to run calciform pools, they just got in my way far, far too much. One thing I tried out that seems correct is I cut the 2 planeswalkers and a condemn for 3 kitchen finks. They give us the life gain that's missing from lightning helix which is still important, and is a great way to help pressure opposing walkers, more specifically liliana of the veil. Anytime I play against jund and they don't resolve liliana the game is easy, but if it ever resolves I can never come close to winning. The finks also helps handle incidental dorks that peck away at your life total. Like when a control player just jams a snapcaster for zero value or turns 2 and 3 to beat down with, or a handful of memnites from affinity. While these clowns aren't that dangerous, you have to handle them eventually and the finks stops all of the mediocre beats in their place.
I also cut the 26th land for a remand, which is something I am loathe to do, but with the significantly reduced amount of fetchlands, extra cantrips, and a pair of scry lands I seem to be able to get away with it just fine. And finally, last breath has been absolutely miserable so I'm using dismember in it's place, which is less miserable, albeit barely. Here's the current list I'm jamming with:
I'd play Condescend instead of Remand. Permanent answers are better in Control decks, you don't have many fetchlands disrupting the scrying, it can be cast for 1 mana with X=0 on a spell just to scry 2, scrying is better for digging for cards than drawing, and it is actually relevant in the late-game.
I'd play Condescend instead of Remand. Permanent answers are better in Control decks, you don't have many fetchlands disrupting the scrying, it can be cast for 1 mana with X=0 on a spell just to scry 2, scrying is better for digging for cards than drawing, and it is actually relevant in the late-game.
That's a card I haven't considered honestly. I think I still prefer remand though because while both cards are equally dead in the late game, and early on scry 2 and draw a card are very comparable, but remand really helps in counter wars with scapeshift or twin. I'll definitely try it out though. Don't get me wrong scry 2 is awesome at setting up your draws, especially with only 3 fetches, but I'm mainly in the market for something that can help against combo and not be dead against pod/jund in that slot. I'm already pushing it with a MD negate, mostly to tag a liliana from jund or pod in addition to being awesome in combo matches.
However I'm definitely with you in that control wants hard answers and not just delays. But if you're fighting over a lethal scapeshift, assuming you open with a hard counter, remand is as good as straight up counterspell in that spot which is the main reason I have it as a 1 of.
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I'd play Condescend instead of Remand. Permanent answers are better in Control decks, you don't have many fetchlands disrupting the scrying, it can be cast for 1 mana with X=0 on a spell just to scry 2, scrying is better for digging for cards than drawing, and it is actually relevant in the late-game.
That's a card I haven't considered honestly. I think I still prefer remand though because while both cards are equally dead in the late game, and early on scry 2 and draw a card are very comparable, but remand really helps in counter wars with scapeshift or twin. I'll definitely try it out though. Don't get me wrong scry 2 is awesome at setting up your draws, especially with only 3 fetches, but I'm mainly in the market for something that can help against combo and not be dead against pod/jund in that slot. I'm already pushing it with a MD negate, mostly to tag a liliana from jund or pod in addition to being awesome in combo matches.
However I'm definitely with you in that control wants hard answers and not just delays. But if you're fighting over a lethal scapeshift, assuming you open with a hard counter, remand is as good as straight up counterspell in that spot which is the main reason I have it as a 1 of.
Condescend isn't necessarily dead in the lat-game. If you have no better options, you can just increase the X value until you run out of mana if you really need to counter something. In my testing, Condescend is really strong against BGx, WUR, and Twin while being weaker against Scapeshift and Pod (though it still is useful there).
Condescend isn't necessarily dead in the lat-game. If you have no better options, you can just increase the X value until you run out of mana if you really need to counter something. In my testing, Condescend is really strong against BGx, WUR, and Twin while being weaker against Scapeshift and Pod (though it still is useful there).
Well I didn't mean dead as in land number 23, or a random nicol bolas in a UW deck, as it can still cry 2 and might be able to tag something of course. But it does have as much value late game (roughly) as remand in late game. They both get value and both have a chance to team up with something else to get full value (especialy in snapcaster mirrors). Besides, in standard I've certainly cast my share of syncopates for X=7. But that slot is more biased towards the combo side of the scale, but I'll check it out against them and see how it feels.
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What is everyone's thoughts on calciform pools? Whenever I try and run a pair in my list they're constantly just getting in the way and screwing up my curve. So far in a bunch of games I've only really be able to take advantage of making a ton of mana twice. And in those cases it was to activate 3 celestial colonnades while having snap+cryptic available in a game I was already winning. Anybody have some stories where they really pulled their weight and weren't just a case of "woo shiny" value plays?
Calciform pools is a fantastic card and I think its one of the main reasons to go UW. They're just really strong value. Excess mana at the end of your turns can always be put into it for use later. They don't ETB tapped so I'm actually quite confused how they can mess up your curve. If its mana fixing that is your issue, then its likely that your mana base needs to be adjusted, but i'm skeptical that running most lands other than calciform are helpful.
They help to ensure that you have mana to win counterwars, and they can keep allowing you to have access to mana if you aren't able to draw your lands. For what they do, they're very solid additions.
They "effectively" ETB tapped because you can't tap them for colored mana the same turn unless you pay an extra 1 colorless to filter which is what has happened to me many more times than being able to utilize the extra mana. I played 20ish games with them always in my opener (so I can see how they work at the start of a game) and another 10 with them just in the deck naturally. When I tried them they required me to drop down to only 3/4 basics to be 90% sure I can cast cryptic on 4 which is not where I want to be. If they're your 4th land you aren't casting cryptic that turn, the same goes for colonnade, coast, and any temples, so I'm not really happy with considering them as a dual land for mana fixing purposes.
Also it is super awkward playing a 2 color deck that folds to blood moon. I think that in a more tap out oriented version of the deck they'd be fine, like with a full compliment of walkers and titans. I prefer to have my lands come out untapped, 90% painless, and on time without rolling over to a blood moon. I think that the value in that is greater than what the pools adds, which isn't something the UWR versions can claim either.
I'm legitimately confused how it adding colorless mana is the same as effectively ETB tapped. Its not the same and I don't honestly see how it can completely destroy your tempo. Obviously its not great if its your only land, but that's like saying you shouldn't run Tec Edge because it doesnt tap for U or W. I'd certainly play it over the UW temple which actually does harm your ability to curve out, which is your biggest complaint of the card.
I think a lot of your issues from it come more to your manabase not being optimized for them, or for the deck you are trying to play in general, over the card. After looking at the list you posted, I don't really know why you are running Glacial fortress over Seachrome Coast. Its certainly less reliable. I also don't like the UW temple. Plus you could probably up the number of Mystic gates since you are running so many colored mana symbols. Those are just some suggestions, and it's partially my personal preference, but if curving out is so bad, then for the life of me I don't understand so many Glacial fortress (which are more likely to ETB tapped at crucial moments than Seachrome) or the UW temple at all.
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If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
I'm legitimately confused how it adding colorless mana is the same as effectively ETB tapped. Its not the same and I don't honestly see how it can completely destroy your tempo. Obviously its not great if its your only land, but that's like saying you shouldn't run Tec Edge because it doesnt tap for U or W. I'd certainly play it over the UW temple which actually does harm your ability to curve out, which is your biggest complaint of the card.
I think a lot of your issues from it come more to your manabase not being optimized for them, or for the deck you are trying to play in general, over the card. After looking at the list you posted, I don't really know why you are running Glacial fortress over Seachrome Coast. Its certainly less reliable. I also don't like the UW temple. Plus you could probably up the number of Mystic gates since you are running so many colored mana symbols. Those are just some suggestions, and it's partially my personal preference, but if curving out is so bad, then for the life of me I don't understand so many Glacial fortress (which are more likely to ETB tapped at crucial moments than Seachrome) or the UW temple at all.
I'm saying that the pools effectively come out tapped for the purposes of considering them as a dual land or a mana fixer, while tectonic edge is more of a spell than a land. In order to get colored mana from the pools you have to tap 1 mana and it to add the first charge counter which sets you back a lot in the early turns. Later on that's perfectly fine, but I just hate seeing them in my opener. As for the glacials, if you consider them as a pseudo two drop they come out untapped a very large portion of the time on turn 2, with over 90% regularity on turn 3, and are nearly guaranteed on turn 4 which is the key turn. Sechrome coast and calciform pools are not able to provide a colored source on turn 4 when combined with 3 tec edge and 4 colonnades. As for the u/w temples, I absolutely swear by them and I would play more if I could, but the ETB tapped line of text is a real cost so I'm holding it at 2. ETB tapped on them has the same problem with turn 4 as a ton of other duals, but before and after the scry 1 is very good. Simply being able to see more cards is worth running just the two.
However I have considered adding another mystic gate. While I might not be able to do something like path an attacker then post combat mana leak or remand, but at least I will be able to cast those spells without having to sink an extra mana into the pools to turn it into a poor man's dual land in the early game. And no my mana base is not optimized for the pools in the list I posted, I was running an entirely different one when I was trying out the pools with noticeably less basics and a playset of seachromes.
EDIT: For the numbers that I'm using in regards to glacial fortress I'm using Frank Karstens article on CFB which recommends 13 plains/island cards for the glacial to come out untapped on turn 2 with 90% probability and 12 for turn 3 and my list has 12 basics (including fetches and shocks).
Does anyone have any experience running Tamiyo, the Moon Sage in their deck? I kno the CMC 5 at sorcery spell frightens people but she was so good in standard when she was available, I have to think she is at least debateable in a UW control shell. Her +1 is great against a lot of things (keeping a pod tapped, filter lands for greedy manabases etc), her - can be very relevant in some games and her ultimate is infinite CA.
I have had a lot of success playing Ajana V in UWR control, who shares some characteristics (+1 and game winning ult) that I have to feel she at least deserves to be in the discussion for the deck as a wincon.
Does anyone have any experience running Tamiyo, the Moon Sage in their deck? I kno the CMC 5 at sorcery spell frightens people but she was so good in standard when she was available, I have to think she is at least debateable in a UW control shell. Her +1 is great against a lot of things (keeping a pod tapped, filter lands for greedy manabases etc), her - can be very relevant in some games and her ultimate is infinite CA.
I have had a lot of success playing Ajana V in UWR control, who shares some characteristics (+1 and game winning ult) that I have to feel she at least deserves to be in the discussion for the deck as a wincon.
As much as I love Tammy (and trust me I sure do) I don't think she's viable in a format with pestermites and resto angels. I barely got to play her much when she was around in standard because resto was such a blow out. And 5 mana sorceries in modern need to essentially act like battle of wits. By that I mean if you get to untap with [5 drop du jour] you win the game. They're just too hard to resolve and survive to untap with in most game 1s.
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I'm legitimately confused how it adding colorless mana is the same as effectively ETB tapped. Its not the same and I don't honestly see how it can completely destroy your tempo. Obviously its not great if its your only land, but that's like saying you shouldn't run Tec Edge because it doesnt tap for U or W. I'd certainly play it over the UW temple which actually does harm your ability to curve out, which is your biggest complaint of the card.
I think a lot of your issues from it come more to your manabase not being optimized for them, or for the deck you are trying to play in general, over the card. After looking at the list you posted, I don't really know why you are running Glacial fortress over Seachrome Coast. Its certainly less reliable. I also don't like the UW temple. Plus you could probably up the number of Mystic gates since you are running so many colored mana symbols. Those are just some suggestions, and it's partially my personal preference, but if curving out is so bad, then for the life of me I don't understand so many Glacial fortress (which are more likely to ETB tapped at crucial moments than Seachrome) or the UW temple at all.
I'm saying that the pools effectively come out tapped for the purposes of considering them as a dual land or a mana fixer, while tectonic edge is more of a spell than a land. In order to get colored mana from the pools you have to tap 1 mana and it to add the first charge counter which sets you back a lot in the early turns. Later on that's perfectly fine, but I just hate seeing them in my opener. As for the glacials, if you consider them as a pseudo two drop they come out untapped a very large portion of the time on turn 2, with over 90% regularity on turn 3, and are nearly guaranteed on turn 4 which is the key turn. Sechrome coast and calciform pools are not able to provide a colored source on turn 4 when combined with 3 tec edge and 4 colonnades. As for the u/w temples, I absolutely swear by them and I would play more if I could, but the ETB tapped line of text is a real cost so I'm holding it at 2. ETB tapped on them has the same problem with turn 4 as a ton of other duals, but before and after the scry 1 is very good. Simply being able to see more cards is worth running just the two.
However I have considered adding another mystic gate. While I might not be able to do something like path an attacker then post combat mana leak or remand, but at least I will be able to cast those spells without having to sink an extra mana into the pools to turn it into a poor man's dual land in the early game. And no my mana base is not optimized for the pools in the list I posted, I was running an entirely different one when I was trying out the pools with noticeably less basics and a playset of seachromes.
EDIT: For the numbers that I'm using in regards to glacial fortress I'm using Frank Karstens article on CFB which recommends 13 plains/island cards for the glacial to come out untapped on turn 2 with 90% probability and 12 for turn 3 and my list has 12 basics (including fetches and shocks).
We have differences of opinion, you seem to highly value the temple where I think they do very little compared to the pools.
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If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
We have differences of opinion, you seem to highly value the temple where I think they do very little compared to the pools.
That's fine, we can agree to disagree. At least you can say what your reasons are as opposed to just reading off the rules text to me which I can respect, if nothing else it makes for a decent discussion.
What are you running in the way of removal? I've taken a big liking to condemn because it gets around persist and can tag anything that's hitting you (namely goyfs and angels) unlike a lot of burn spells. Though I think some number of dismember is needed because not every creature needs to attack to be a threat like bobs or a pestermite with a twin being cast on it. But the 4 life is such a big deal without lightning helix to snapcaster back at some point which is why I'm choosing to run some number (undecided on how many in total) of kitchen finks.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
We have differences of opinion, you seem to highly value the temple where I think they do very little compared to the pools.
That's fine, we can agree to disagree. At least you can say what your reasons are as opposed to just reading off the rules text to me which I can respect, if nothing else it makes for a decent discussion.
What are you running in the way of removal? I've taken a big liking to condemn because it gets around persist and can tag anything that's hitting you (namely goyfs and angels) unlike a lot of burn spells. Though I think some number of dismember is needed because not every creature needs to attack to be a threat like bobs or a pestermite with a twin being cast on it. But the 4 life is such a big deal without lightning helix to snapcaster back at some point which is why I'm choosing to run some number (undecided on how many in total) of kitchen finks.
I put this deck down mostly because I really wanted to play with Gifts Ungiven which I thought changed the deck too much to try and encorporate in here. When I played this deck regularly, I was running 4 Paths, 2 Detention Spheres, and 3 Supreme verdicts. I was mostly running a list similar to soorani where my goal was to try and land a planeswalker on a mostly empty field and then grind out an advantage from there.
UW is so broad, that there are many different ways it can go. I think lots of people on this board prefer a more aggressive but reactive list than what I was playing. That doesnt make one better than another, it probably just vaires in playstyle. I really do think that a Tap out control list is better for UW than simply trying to be more reactive.
An argument against pools is an argument that is steeped in: speculation, a few bad experiences, or none at all.
It is an absolutely fine card to run and it is comparable to an etb land in some scenarios, but not all...which cannot be said for temples. Temples are probably fine too, but it is an actual etb land when everything is said and done, which when filling the slots of two calciform pools will have a far more variable impact on the game.
Those who want to play expensive sorcery-speed cards and have back up when casting them would do well to run pools, since that is one of the primary reasons to run them.
Hey, I'm currently testing this deck for GP Madrid (a long run, heh) and thought it could be useful posting my games on youtube. Here is my playlist, I will fill it gradually. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL63wR7IAICDV0F3f8sSElPEjYiZAGfWaI
I haven't got cliques yet and white fetches instead of blue ones for the same money reason.
Feel free to rip this deck apart. I put this together at the beginning of Modern in 2012 and it did very well for me. I got a Top 8 in a big tournament and barely missed 2 other Top 8s in 3 big tournaments. At FNM style tournaments, it did pretty well also. I know Abrupt Decay being printed really hurts this deck, but is there something else I'm missing? Should I change up some cards? I already changed about 10 cards.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'm a Dredgevine player for the last two years. For some reason, this deck style has been very attractive. I have been playtesting a lot on Cockatrice with a few different control builds. I started with UWR Control and it was just really hard to play coming from a combo deck standpoint. I switched to UW Control (while I lost Ajani Vengeant, Lightning Helix, Lightning Bolt, and Anger of the Gods, I became more consistent).
I currently play test a UW Superfriends variant of this type of deck. While I agree on Sun Titan and Baneslayer Angel as amazing finishers, I play Consecrated Sphinx as my finisher. Combined with Jace Beleren, I draw four cards the turn Sphinx comes down, plus two more the next upkeep if my opponent untaps. I use all the good stuff and a singleton Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, which combined with Gideon Jura ends games. Don't rule out combinations with amazing planeswalkers.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Hey, that sounds like an interesting concept! Can you post your working decklist?
It's still a work in progress and my numbers are definitely nowhere near finished. I would eventually like to take this to a PTQ as it will hopefully be more consistent than Dredgevine.
As I said, I'm still working on numbers. I've had to tweak a few things, but I like the build so far. With 2 colors, I don't really need mana fixing. I've never been a fan of fetch lands. 26 helps me hit my land drops when I need them. Ghostly Prison is a surprise to most aggro decks, especially G1. It helps slow down the field. Jace Beleren is straight card advantage and I let people use him as a target until I can land a Tamiyo, the Moon Sage or Gideon Jura. I've definitely lost my fair share of games, but some of my numbers are to help combat the meta I've been seeing on Cockatrice. Any suggestions are nice!
Well, I tried my Caw Blade list at FNM with 30 players.
Round 1 vs. Esper Mill. Both games were fairly close; I was nearly milled except game 2 was safer because he got stuck on 2 ands. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Affinity. Game 1 is bad for me. He beats me on turn 3 with Infect and Arcbound Ravager. I beat him in game 2 after landing a turn 2 Stony Silence. He has 2 Darksteel Citadel and Springleaf Drum out only. He plays some 1/1s, but they can't deal with many Hawks and Vendilion Clique. In the final game, I do Squadron Hawk into Vendilion Clique into Supreme Verdict into Stony Silence and another Hawk. He does a Thoughtcast, which gets him 2 Etched Champion. He races my Celestial Colonnade, but he has a lot of flying blockers (2 Ornithopter, 2 Inkmoth Nexus, and 1 Blinkmoth Nexus. I don't see an opening to swing with many Hawks and 1/1 Spirits. He eventually beats me when I can't draw anything else but lands. I nearly had enough mana to double Celestial Colonnade, although 1 had 2 infect counters on it. I still had a land in hand. 1-2.
Round 3 vs. Mono Green Wave. His list is less consistent, but more explosive. He does 2 Genesis Wave for 11 and 14 in the 1st game. This was after I failed to draw a 3rd land and got Plow Undered. The 2nd game has me getting through eventually when he overextends into Supreme Verdict, then I Snapcaster Mage/Supreme Verdict, then Vendilion Clique with Batterskull and Sword of Feast and Famine on it. This protects me from an Ooze and other stuff that he keeps drawing. The final game is similar to this game, except he doesn't keep drawing gas and I have countermagic this time. I let a Beastmaster Ascension resolve and it gets to 5 counters before I do lethal. I gain control of a mana dork with Vedalken Shackles and it helps me hit him with Celestial Colonnade and leave countermagic open. 2-1.
Round 4 vs. Griselbrand Reanimator. This is his own list and has all 5 colors. He has been playing these type decks for a long time now. In the 1st game, I counter some stuff and ship a Goryo's Vengeance with Vendilion Clique. Still on the 6th turn, I need to draw my 1st land drawn of the game in order to activate Celestial Colonnade in order to do lethal. Instead he has 1 card I don't know about and when I do Cryptic Command to tap all of his creatures and Emrakul, he does Izzet Charm and I have only 1 mana (or I would have swung for lethal with the Colonnade last turn instead of leaving him at 3 life. I am at 15 life because I shocked twice to leave up countermagic. I think one of these was a mistake, but I didn't know what he had. In the 2nd game, I ship a Dispel with Vendilion Clique, but he drew another Dispel and I didn't draw a 5th land in order to cast Swan Song in response to his Dispel on my Cryptic Command on his Griselbrand (cast off Fist of the Suns). I would have been able to Surgical Extraction the Griselbrands, leaving him with Emrakul to beat me. 0-2.
Round 5 vs. Top Control. In the 1st game, I have a slow draw and scoop eventually when he has control of the top of my library and Ensnaring Bridge out. The 2nd game is similar, but I keep attacking with my 4 Squadron Hawks. The 1st turn, he does sees the top of my library with Mishra's Bauble and mills the Stony Silence. I am about to concede because it looks like he has control of the game, but he can't discard the last card in his hand to not let my Hawks attack for 4 with him at 3 and Ensnaring Bridge out again. The last game has him Thought Scour on my Stony Silence. However, I had one in my original hand and play it right away. He is about to scoop, but keeps playing. I play Spell Pierce, Snapcaster Mage/Spell Pierce, Mana Leak, and Snapcaster Mage/Mana Leak on 3 Ensnaring Bridge and something else that could have hurt me. Then I swing with the Snapcaster Mages and Squadron Hawks. He kept up with the gas, but my hand had too many counterspells. 2-1.
I finish 3-2, but I think I had good tiebreakers because the guy who I beat in the final round was 3-1 and I was 2-2 before I faced him.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Could Momentary Blink be useful in UW Control? I used to play it a lot in Pauper on MtGO and good creatures with ETB effects turn it into a versatile card. Blink for life, or to save a creature, or to cantrip, etc. That question aside, would like to put forward this deck list in order to ask the question about whether Ephara would fit into UW control? I think it produces a deck with decent inevitability and she combos well with Supreme Verdict if that were added.
Test it more is my advice because the numbers of things pretty clearly indicate that it has not been tested.
I've played half a dozen games with this list (against infect, green ramp (of some sort), BW tokens). And a similar number of games with a previous list. The card counts are based around activating Ephara so that the deck has strong inevitability. I believe the Fetters and one of the Remands should be cut for 3x Cryptic. I suspect Mutavault should be cut from 3x to 2x, and probably cut one Plumeveil for a fourth SSS. Although Plumeveil is very good for ambushes with Ephara. I don't think this deck can afford to cut a land... but can you suggest any other adjustments?
Has anyone looked at Wafo's esper list that placed in the top of the last GP? Its basically UW with 4 esper charms in the MB and 3 thoughtseize in the SB. I am wondering what ppl's take on it is from a UW side of things. I myself have some misgivings if those 7 cards are worth the splash into B for, the mana becomes much worse and we lose caliform pools which i think is a large reason to play a draw-go style of control.
What could a UW only deck use in the place of those effects, the thoughtseize prolly get replaced with some form of hard counters, ie negates but the versatility of the esper charm is hard to find somewhere else (draw 2 for 3 CMC is unbelieveable value, instant speed discard is very underrated and maindeckable answers to splinter twin, blood moon and other fun enchantments can make game 1s winanable.)
Esper charm is a good card, but it is a heavy color requirement but its abilities are generically worth it. I mean try it out, right? I have used esper charm before and all the modes were useful at some point. The instant speed draw plus destroy splinter twin, blood moon and other random enchantments is good in Modern considering.
I really like what youve done with this deck, I play the USA Control with a few tweaks here to compliment my play style but I might adapt to something along these lines. Have you had significant play testing with it? If so do you see anything that you would change?
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I'd play Condescend instead of Remand. Permanent answers are better in Control decks, you don't have many fetchlands disrupting the scrying, it can be cast for 1 mana with X=0 on a spell just to scry 2, scrying is better for digging for cards than drawing, and it is actually relevant in the late-game.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That's a card I haven't considered honestly. I think I still prefer remand though because while both cards are equally dead in the late game, and early on scry 2 and draw a card are very comparable, but remand really helps in counter wars with scapeshift or twin. I'll definitely try it out though. Don't get me wrong scry 2 is awesome at setting up your draws, especially with only 3 fetches, but I'm mainly in the market for something that can help against combo and not be dead against pod/jund in that slot. I'm already pushing it with a MD negate, mostly to tag a liliana from jund or pod in addition to being awesome in combo matches.
However I'm definitely with you in that control wants hard answers and not just delays. But if you're fighting over a lethal scapeshift, assuming you open with a hard counter, remand is as good as straight up counterspell in that spot which is the main reason I have it as a 1 of.
Condescend isn't necessarily dead in the lat-game. If you have no better options, you can just increase the X value until you run out of mana if you really need to counter something. In my testing, Condescend is really strong against BGx, WUR, and Twin while being weaker against Scapeshift and Pod (though it still is useful there).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Well I didn't mean dead as in land number 23, or a random nicol bolas in a UW deck, as it can still cry 2 and might be able to tag something of course. But it does have as much value late game (roughly) as remand in late game. They both get value and both have a chance to team up with something else to get full value (especialy in snapcaster mirrors). Besides, in standard I've certainly cast my share of syncopates for X=7. But that slot is more biased towards the combo side of the scale, but I'll check it out against them and see how it feels.
I'm legitimately confused how it adding colorless mana is the same as effectively ETB tapped. Its not the same and I don't honestly see how it can completely destroy your tempo. Obviously its not great if its your only land, but that's like saying you shouldn't run Tec Edge because it doesnt tap for U or W. I'd certainly play it over the UW temple which actually does harm your ability to curve out, which is your biggest complaint of the card.
I think a lot of your issues from it come more to your manabase not being optimized for them, or for the deck you are trying to play in general, over the card. After looking at the list you posted, I don't really know why you are running Glacial fortress over Seachrome Coast. Its certainly less reliable. I also don't like the UW temple. Plus you could probably up the number of Mystic gates since you are running so many colored mana symbols. Those are just some suggestions, and it's partially my personal preference, but if curving out is so bad, then for the life of me I don't understand so many Glacial fortress (which are more likely to ETB tapped at crucial moments than Seachrome) or the UW temple at all.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
I'm saying that the pools effectively come out tapped for the purposes of considering them as a dual land or a mana fixer, while tectonic edge is more of a spell than a land. In order to get colored mana from the pools you have to tap 1 mana and it to add the first charge counter which sets you back a lot in the early turns. Later on that's perfectly fine, but I just hate seeing them in my opener. As for the glacials, if you consider them as a pseudo two drop they come out untapped a very large portion of the time on turn 2, with over 90% regularity on turn 3, and are nearly guaranteed on turn 4 which is the key turn. Sechrome coast and calciform pools are not able to provide a colored source on turn 4 when combined with 3 tec edge and 4 colonnades. As for the u/w temples, I absolutely swear by them and I would play more if I could, but the ETB tapped line of text is a real cost so I'm holding it at 2. ETB tapped on them has the same problem with turn 4 as a ton of other duals, but before and after the scry 1 is very good. Simply being able to see more cards is worth running just the two.
However I have considered adding another mystic gate. While I might not be able to do something like path an attacker then post combat mana leak or remand, but at least I will be able to cast those spells without having to sink an extra mana into the pools to turn it into a poor man's dual land in the early game. And no my mana base is not optimized for the pools in the list I posted, I was running an entirely different one when I was trying out the pools with noticeably less basics and a playset of seachromes.
EDIT: For the numbers that I'm using in regards to glacial fortress I'm using Frank Karstens article on CFB which recommends 13 plains/island cards for the glacial to come out untapped on turn 2 with 90% probability and 12 for turn 3 and my list has 12 basics (including fetches and shocks).
I have had a lot of success playing Ajana V in UWR control, who shares some characteristics (+1 and game winning ult) that I have to feel she at least deserves to be in the discussion for the deck as a wincon.
As much as I love Tammy (and trust me I sure do) I don't think she's viable in a format with pestermites and resto angels. I barely got to play her much when she was around in standard because resto was such a blow out. And 5 mana sorceries in modern need to essentially act like battle of wits. By that I mean if you get to untap with [5 drop du jour] you win the game. They're just too hard to resolve and survive to untap with in most game 1s.
We have differences of opinion, you seem to highly value the temple where I think they do very little compared to the pools.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
That's fine, we can agree to disagree. At least you can say what your reasons are as opposed to just reading off the rules text to me which I can respect, if nothing else it makes for a decent discussion.
What are you running in the way of removal? I've taken a big liking to condemn because it gets around persist and can tag anything that's hitting you (namely goyfs and angels) unlike a lot of burn spells. Though I think some number of dismember is needed because not every creature needs to attack to be a threat like bobs or a pestermite with a twin being cast on it. But the 4 life is such a big deal without lightning helix to snapcaster back at some point which is why I'm choosing to run some number (undecided on how many in total) of kitchen finks.
I put this deck down mostly because I really wanted to play with Gifts Ungiven which I thought changed the deck too much to try and encorporate in here. When I played this deck regularly, I was running 4 Paths, 2 Detention Spheres, and 3 Supreme verdicts. I was mostly running a list similar to soorani where my goal was to try and land a planeswalker on a mostly empty field and then grind out an advantage from there.
UW is so broad, that there are many different ways it can go. I think lots of people on this board prefer a more aggressive but reactive list than what I was playing. That doesnt make one better than another, it probably just vaires in playstyle. I really do think that a Tap out control list is better for UW than simply trying to be more reactive.
Gerry relatively recently highlighted a UW deck that was doing well. Again its more tapout than I think this board would prefer, but its been doing well. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28772_Daily-Digest-UW-Control.html
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
It is an absolutely fine card to run and it is comparable to an etb land in some scenarios, but not all...which cannot be said for temples. Temples are probably fine too, but it is an actual etb land when everything is said and done, which when filling the slots of two calciform pools will have a far more variable impact on the game.
Those who want to play expensive sorcery-speed cards and have back up when casting them would do well to run pools, since that is one of the primary reasons to run them.
I haven't got cliques yet and white fetches instead of blue ones for the same money reason.
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
Spells
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
2 Jace Beleren
Artifacts
1 Sword if Feast and Famine
1 Sword if Ice and Fire
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Steelshaper´s Gift
Lands
3 Seachrome Coast
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Hallowed Fountain
7 Island
2 Moorland Haunt
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Stony Silence
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Wrath of God
2 Swan Song
1 Batterskull
2 Engineered Explosives
Feel free to rip this deck apart. I put this together at the beginning of Modern in 2012 and it did very well for me. I got a Top 8 in a big tournament and barely missed 2 other Top 8s in 3 big tournaments. At FNM style tournaments, it did pretty well also. I know Abrupt Decay being printed really hurts this deck, but is there something else I'm missing? Should I change up some cards? I already changed about 10 cards.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I currently play test a UW Superfriends variant of this type of deck. While I agree on Sun Titan and Baneslayer Angel as amazing finishers, I play Consecrated Sphinx as my finisher. Combined with Jace Beleren, I draw four cards the turn Sphinx comes down, plus two more the next upkeep if my opponent untaps. I use all the good stuff and a singleton Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, which combined with Gideon Jura ends games. Don't rule out combinations with amazing planeswalkers.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
1 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers: (8)
2 Gideon Jura
2 Elsepth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace Beleren
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Spells: (23)
2 Detention Sphere
2 Ghostly Prison
4 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Telling Time
4 Celestial Collonade
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
3 Plains
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Celestial Purge
2 Condemn
1 Dispel
4 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Negate
1 Spell Snare
1 Wrath of God
As I said, I'm still working on numbers. I've had to tweak a few things, but I like the build so far. With 2 colors, I don't really need mana fixing. I've never been a fan of fetch lands. 26 helps me hit my land drops when I need them. Ghostly Prison is a surprise to most aggro decks, especially G1. It helps slow down the field. Jace Beleren is straight card advantage and I let people use him as a target until I can land a Tamiyo, the Moon Sage or Gideon Jura. I've definitely lost my fair share of games, but some of my numbers are to help combat the meta I've been seeing on Cockatrice. Any suggestions are nice!
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Round 1 vs. Esper Mill. Both games were fairly close; I was nearly milled except game 2 was safer because he got stuck on 2 ands. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Affinity. Game 1 is bad for me. He beats me on turn 3 with Infect and Arcbound Ravager. I beat him in game 2 after landing a turn 2 Stony Silence. He has 2 Darksteel Citadel and Springleaf Drum out only. He plays some 1/1s, but they can't deal with many Hawks and Vendilion Clique. In the final game, I do Squadron Hawk into Vendilion Clique into Supreme Verdict into Stony Silence and another Hawk. He does a Thoughtcast, which gets him 2 Etched Champion. He races my Celestial Colonnade, but he has a lot of flying blockers (2 Ornithopter, 2 Inkmoth Nexus, and 1 Blinkmoth Nexus. I don't see an opening to swing with many Hawks and 1/1 Spirits. He eventually beats me when I can't draw anything else but lands. I nearly had enough mana to double Celestial Colonnade, although 1 had 2 infect counters on it. I still had a land in hand. 1-2.
Round 3 vs. Mono Green Wave. His list is less consistent, but more explosive. He does 2 Genesis Wave for 11 and 14 in the 1st game. This was after I failed to draw a 3rd land and got Plow Undered. The 2nd game has me getting through eventually when he overextends into Supreme Verdict, then I Snapcaster Mage/Supreme Verdict, then Vendilion Clique with Batterskull and Sword of Feast and Famine on it. This protects me from an Ooze and other stuff that he keeps drawing. The final game is similar to this game, except he doesn't keep drawing gas and I have countermagic this time. I let a Beastmaster Ascension resolve and it gets to 5 counters before I do lethal. I gain control of a mana dork with Vedalken Shackles and it helps me hit him with Celestial Colonnade and leave countermagic open. 2-1.
Round 4 vs. Griselbrand Reanimator. This is his own list and has all 5 colors. He has been playing these type decks for a long time now. In the 1st game, I counter some stuff and ship a Goryo's Vengeance with Vendilion Clique. Still on the 6th turn, I need to draw my 1st land drawn of the game in order to activate Celestial Colonnade in order to do lethal. Instead he has 1 card I don't know about and when I do Cryptic Command to tap all of his creatures and Emrakul, he does Izzet Charm and I have only 1 mana (or I would have swung for lethal with the Colonnade last turn instead of leaving him at 3 life. I am at 15 life because I shocked twice to leave up countermagic. I think one of these was a mistake, but I didn't know what he had. In the 2nd game, I ship a Dispel with Vendilion Clique, but he drew another Dispel and I didn't draw a 5th land in order to cast Swan Song in response to his Dispel on my Cryptic Command on his Griselbrand (cast off Fist of the Suns). I would have been able to Surgical Extraction the Griselbrands, leaving him with Emrakul to beat me. 0-2.
Round 5 vs. Top Control. In the 1st game, I have a slow draw and scoop eventually when he has control of the top of my library and Ensnaring Bridge out. The 2nd game is similar, but I keep attacking with my 4 Squadron Hawks. The 1st turn, he does sees the top of my library with Mishra's Bauble and mills the Stony Silence. I am about to concede because it looks like he has control of the game, but he can't discard the last card in his hand to not let my Hawks attack for 4 with him at 3 and Ensnaring Bridge out again. The last game has him Thought Scour on my Stony Silence. However, I had one in my original hand and play it right away. He is about to scoop, but keeps playing. I play Spell Pierce, Snapcaster Mage/Spell Pierce, Mana Leak, and Snapcaster Mage/Mana Leak on 3 Ensnaring Bridge and something else that could have hurt me. Then I swing with the Snapcaster Mages and Squadron Hawks. He kept up with the gas, but my hand had too many counterspells. 2-1.
I finish 3-2, but I think I had good tiebreakers because the guy who I beat in the final round was 3-1 and I was 2-2 before I faced him.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)-------------
3x Ephara, God of the Polis
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Plumeveil
1x Quickling
3x Restoration Angel
3x Spellstutter Sprite
3x Vendilion Clique
----------------
3x Detention Sphere
2x Faith's Fetters
4x Path to Exile
4x Remand
2x Spell Snare
Lands (26)
----------
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Island
4x Marsh Flats
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Mutavault
2x Plains
2x Tectonic Edge
I've played half a dozen games with this list (against infect, green ramp (of some sort), BW tokens). And a similar number of games with a previous list. The card counts are based around activating Ephara so that the deck has strong inevitability. I believe the Fetters and one of the Remands should be cut for 3x Cryptic. I suspect Mutavault should be cut from 3x to 2x, and probably cut one Plumeveil for a fourth SSS. Although Plumeveil is very good for ambushes with Ephara. I don't think this deck can afford to cut a land... but can you suggest any other adjustments?
What could a UW only deck use in the place of those effects, the thoughtseize prolly get replaced with some form of hard counters, ie negates but the versatility of the esper charm is hard to find somewhere else (draw 2 for 3 CMC is unbelieveable value, instant speed discard is very underrated and maindeckable answers to splinter twin, blood moon and other fun enchantments can make game 1s winanable.)
I really like what youve done with this deck, I play the USA Control with a few tweaks here to compliment my play style but I might adapt to something along these lines. Have you had significant play testing with it? If so do you see anything that you would change?