I prefer Curio because it gets you infinite draw and infinite mana (even if it is slower), but I haven't tested Alarm yet (will be soon) so maybe it's fine. Will be adding it to the options section either way. Lead seems terrible in your list.
Half my deck is creatures so on average I will at least hit 2 dudes which can be enough to keep the combo going or just win especially with intruder alarm.
Also people have to be careful with the Imperious perfect and intruder alarm interaction. making a billion tokens when you need to cast regal force Isn't the best idea.
What I mean is with Curio you can get infinite mana and infinite draw, and with Beck you can get infinite mana and infinite draw. If you're running Intruder Alarm and Beck, with Alarm you can get only infinite mana, and with Beck you can get infinite mana and draw. Of course you can combine them, but the point is with an Alarm build, you have fewer opportunities for infinite draw. That's not to say Alarm's upsides don't outweigh its downsides, though (they might).
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Yeah she's the closest but she's still no Symbiote/Quirion Ranger. I do need to test her again to see if she's good enough despite that.
Your list looks pretty tight. Lead instead of Curio is interesting. I don't like Nykthos anymore, not even the one; feels like it does more harm than good. Could be wrong but yeah. I might use 2 Dryad Arbor if you're using 4 Ranger. How have Lead and Ranger been for you?
Nykthos helps me hardcast Craterhoof Behemoth if/when my combo starts to fizzle.
Leads and Rangers are fantastic. I love the pro-blue ability
But I think I'll go the 2 Dryad Arbor plan
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
After some tinkering/solitaire testing on MTGO, here's my new list.... didn't know Cloudstone Curio could be THIS good It also makes Nykthos irrelevant, no wonder you didn't like it anymore.
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Nykthos is still relevant; I just found it screws up my opening hands more often than it helps with mana. Both situations are rare so I just cut it. Glad to see you liking Curio; it's a great card. I wish it was faster but eh, it does the job pretty well.
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
What are you using the Scryb Ranger on if you aren't running Elvish Archdruid? Is it just because Elves don't usually have all their land drops, so this makes one more mana out of a forest as well as untapping an Elvish Mystic?
If you are going to a GW versions of Elves have you tested putting in Mirror Entity? It is on the high CMC side, but is even a better dump for mana than the Sunblade Elf. I had one in my elves deck at the beginning of Modern when I mistook the modern framed Wirewood Symbiote to be Modern legal.
What are you using the Scryb Ranger on if you aren't running Elvish Archdruid? Is it just because Elves don't usually have all their land drops, so this makes one more mana out of a forest as well as untapping an Elvish Mystic?
I discussed the various uses of Scryb Ranger previously.
If you are going to a GW versions of Elves have you tested putting in Mirror Entity? It is on the high CMC side, but is even a better dump for mana than the Sunblade Elf. I had one in my elves deck at the beginning of Modern when I mistook the modern framed Wirewood Symbiote to be Modern legal.
My trouble with M.E. is it adds a color (white), and it's often less mana efficient at mass-pumping than Craterhoof Behemoth, plus doesn't grant trample or have haste, nor can you Pact for it. Its only advantage over 'Hoof is that it's an Elf. That's it. I guess you can pay for early beats with it but I think that's really inefficient also when compared to just running out Archdruids.
And as a win-con, it stinks. On a board with eight 1/1 Elves including MI, it would cost 2W to cast M.E. and then essentially 9 to make them all 9/9's, without gaining haste or trample. That's a total of 12 mana. It would cost only 5GGG to make them all 9/9 tramplers with 'Hoof, plus 'Hoof himself would be a 14/14 haste trampler. There's just no comparison between these two win-cons, 'Hoof is better by a mile.
Ezuri is also a less mana efficient 'Hoof. He might be considered if you are interested in his regen ability, but Path can still snipe your critical combo pieces despite Ezuri so I see him as being of limited utility. I tested him for quite a while but he was consistently underwhelming, whereas 'Hoof consistently kills if he lands on a board full of Elves. They basically have to have Fog or Torpor Orb, or to counter him.
If you are going to a GW versions of Elves have you tested putting in Mirror Entity? It is on the high CMC side, but is even a better dump for mana than the Sunblade Elf. I had one in my elves deck at the beginning of Modern when I mistook the modern framed Wirewood Symbiote to be Modern legal.
My trouble with M.E. is it adds a color (white), and it's often less mana efficient at mass-pumping than Craterhoof Behemoth, plus doesn't grant trample or have haste, nor can you Pact for it. Its only advantage over 'Hoof is that it's an Elf. That's it. I guess you can pay for early beats with it but I think that's really inefficient also when compared to just running out Archdruids.
And as a win-con, it stinks. On a board with eight 1/1 Elves including MI, it would cost 2W to cast M.E. and then essentially 9 to make them all 9/9's, without gaining haste or trample. That's a total of 12 mana. It would cost only 5GGG to make them all 9/9 tramplers with 'Hoof, plus 'Hoof himself would be a 14/14 haste trampler. There's just no comparison between these two win-cons, 'Hoof is better by a mile.
Ezuri is also a less mana efficient 'Hoof. He might be considered if you are interested in his regen ability, but Path can still snipe your critical combo pieces despite Ezuri so I see him as being of limited utility. I tested him for quite a while but he was consistently underwhelming, whereas 'Hoof consistently kills if he lands on a board full of Elves. They basically have to have Fog or Torpor Orb, or to counter him.
Oh I was asking in response to izzetmage's thought on adding white to the deck to allow Sunblade Elf to work.
If he's brewing a deck that allowed him to sink 4W for +1/+1, I'm curious about his thoughts on Mirror Entity as it functionally does the same thing, but more efficiently for the activated ability, but less on the cost to put on the board.
My deck is mostly mono-g and can't run it. I used to have it, when I thought Wirewood Symbiote was legal. It was nice because you could then get infinite mana via Elvish Archdruid + Mirror Entity + Wirewood Symbiote.
Just feed in 1 mana to the Entity to make the Symbiote an Elf.
Tap the Archdruid for GGG
Return the now elf symbiote to your hand and untap the archdruid
Play the brand new symbiote leaving GG
Activate the Entity again leaving G and you are ready to start the cycle again.
My deck is mostly mono-g and can't run it. I used to have it, when I thought Wirewood Symbiote was legal. It was nice because you could then get infinite mana via Elvish Archdruid + Mirror Entity + Wirewood Symbiote.
Just feed in 1 mana to the Entity to make the Symbiote an Elf.
Tap the Archdruid for GGG
Return the now elf symbiote to your hand and untap the archdruid
Play the brand new symbiote leaving GG
Activate the Entity again leaving G and you are ready to start the cycle again.
LOL, I like that. Handily gets around Wirewood's "once per turn" limit which is the only thing keeping it in check. Impressive! Did you come up with that? And how well did it work for you? I suppose Mirror Entity is too expensive for Legacy (where it could team up with Wirewood). I suppose we're left to hope for a Standard reprint of Wirewood, which is probably just too good.
Edit: but, y'know, there is a Mirror Entity infinite mana combo that IS Modern-legal: Double Devoted Druid. In fact, I used to run it as an alt win-con in my Standard Mirror Entity combo deck (Venser-Lark).
On top of that, it helps to make sure my combo dosen't fizzle, it can make me draw another card with Dryad Arbor and the pro blue + flying can become handy as well.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Mirror Entity is a bad Ezuri, without Symbiote. I'm opposed to anything that cannot be casted for GGG, i.e. what you get after a Heritage Druid activation.
The reason I'm playing Sunblade Elf goes much deeper than just "find a guy that you can sink mana into". It HAS to be a 1-drop, and an Elf, because of Heritage Druid. Just to give an example of why 1-drops are so important, here's a play that is only possible with 1s: T1 land, 1-drop; T2 land, 1-drop, Heritage Druid, 3-drop. You can't do that if the 1-drop was a 2 or more.
I'm playing Sunblade Elf not just because it has a pump effect, but because it has a pump effect AND is a 1-drop. I mean if I just wanted something that pumps I could play Selesnya Guildmage or additional Ezuris. When they tack on "hey, Sunblade Elf is a pretty good attacker too", well, how can I say no?
LOL, I like that. Handily gets around Wirewood's "once per turn" limit which is the only thing keeping it in check. Impressive! Did you come up with that? And how well did it work for you? I suppose Mirror Entity is too expensive for Legacy (where it could team up with Wirewood). I suppose we're left to hope for a Standard reprint of Wirewood, which is probably just too good.
I did come up with it. No one else would, since everyone else knows Symbiote is not Modern Legal =).
As for how it worked: I only goldfished with it. But I remember it enabling more turn 3 wins than before. The thing was, that not only were you making infinite mana with the combo, but you had a nice sink for the mana. It was quite easy to be attacking with 2 500/500s on turn 3.
So here's hoping Wirewood Symbiote becomes modern legal in the near future.
ktkenshinx, I hope you don't mind my asking, but this seemed a bit sudden. Was izzetmage consulted on the closing of the previous thread? I am not trying to make waves, nor attack destroyermaker's list (which is certainly fine), but I feel that a lot of other ideas were developed in the old thread that are not represented in destroyermaker's OP.
destroyermaker, would you be opposed to including some alternative builds from the old thread in your OP? There are more than one way to skin a cat or make infinity little green men. Is that what is "coming soon" that you referenced? That being said, I like the layout in your OP, with the full card art.
I hate to see all the work that went into the old thread get swept aside, is all I'm saying. I hope that some of the ideas that were discussed there can be brought into the discussion here.
As far as I know, izzetmage was happy to hand off the reins to a different user. A lot of threads went through this kind of update and in every case the old OP was consulted before the switch.
In regards to the primer, a primer should reflect all versions of the deck, whether or not an OP agrees with them. For example, when I did the Restore Balance thread, I presented on both the Borderpost version and the No-Post version, even though I personally believed that the No-Post version was much better at the time. If destroyer doesn't want to write a section on a different version (whether due to disinterest, lack of experience, etc.), that's totally fine; someone else can just write it and he can paste it in the primer.
So feel free to send ideas for updates to destroyer. And remember that destroyer has only had the primer for a week or so. More updates are probably on his radar already! Everyone wants this thread to be the number 1 place for Combo Elves discussion online, and we can only get there if every "version" of the deck gets represented.
Life's Legacy is worse than Elvish Visionary 90% of the time.
Reclamation Sage: obvious upgrade to Viridian Shaman. Sounds nice since it's Pactable, but there are two downsides to it: 1) it costs 3 mana instead of 2 (Seal of Primordium, Deglamer) or 1 (Nature's Claim) and 2) it's sorcery-speed. I think you'd only want 1 in the SB, and you'd play traditional artifact/enchantment hate in the other slots.
Elves is best when using Elves to blow up stuff instead of non-Elf stuff, with rare exception (Abrupt Decay being the only one I can think of, because it hits lots more stuff).
Has anyone tried taking the Elves deck to a more Legacy-style approach? Something to where it's not all-in on the combo, and can play the aggro-midrange plan with a black splash? I know that Legacy Elves uses Glimpse as a Divination or Harmonize for G from time to time, and that we don't have the same luxury, but we at least have an "I Win" button in the form of Dramatic Entrance and Summoner's Pact:
We're not all in on combo; we have Archdruid for aggro and win that way fairly often.
Legacy Elves puts that stuff sideboard because it doesn't need it for a lot of matchups, as we don't. It's still interesting and I'd like to see test results, but I'm pretty confident it's suboptimal. If you're going all in on G/B (which is the only way I'd try this, besides the Legacy method), you want Abrupt Decay in the main.
Dramatic Entrance/Summoner's Pact is cute as a pseudo-Natural Order. I think if it's good, it's only good if you go all in, and add 4x Fauna Shaman. I feel like the difference between 5 and 8 mana might be too small to matter a lot of the time and we'd be better off going the traditional route.
Also people have to be careful with the Imperious perfect and intruder alarm interaction. making a billion tokens when you need to cast regal force Isn't the best idea.
Scryb Ranger
I use 4 of her.
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Arbor Elf
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Scryb Ranger
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Regal Force
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Beck // Call
4x Lead the Stampede
3x Summoner's Pact
Lands: 18
4x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Breeding Pool
2x Dryad Arbor
My sideboard resolves around my meta, lots of artifacts/enchantments hate
Thoughts on the deck?
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
Your list looks pretty tight. Lead instead of Curio is interesting. I don't like Nykthos anymore, not even the one; feels like it does more harm than good. Could be wrong but yeah. I might use 2 Dryad Arbor if you're using 4 Ranger. How have Lead and Ranger been for you?
Leads and Rangers are fantastic. I love the pro-blue ability
But I think I'll go the 2 Dryad Arbor plan
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
4x Arbor Elf
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Scryb Ranger
2x Dryad Arbor
1x Regal Force
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Beck // Call
4x Summoner's Pact
3x Cloudstone Curio
Lands: 16
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Forest
3x Breeding Pool
1x Temple Garden
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
What are you using the Scryb Ranger on if you aren't running Elvish Archdruid? Is it just because Elves don't usually have all their land drops, so this makes one more mana out of a forest as well as untapping an Elvish Mystic?
If you are going to a GW versions of Elves have you tested putting in Mirror Entity? It is on the high CMC side, but is even a better dump for mana than the Sunblade Elf. I had one in my elves deck at the beginning of Modern when I mistook the modern framed Wirewood Symbiote to be Modern legal.
Mirror Entity played as additional Ezuri, Renegade Leader in that deck.
I discussed the various uses of Scryb Ranger previously.
My trouble with M.E. is it adds a color (white), and it's often less mana efficient at mass-pumping than Craterhoof Behemoth, plus doesn't grant trample or have haste, nor can you Pact for it. Its only advantage over 'Hoof is that it's an Elf. That's it. I guess you can pay for early beats with it but I think that's really inefficient also when compared to just running out Archdruids.
And as a win-con, it stinks. On a board with eight 1/1 Elves including MI, it would cost 2W to cast M.E. and then essentially 9 to make them all 9/9's, without gaining haste or trample. That's a total of 12 mana. It would cost only 5GGG to make them all 9/9 tramplers with 'Hoof, plus 'Hoof himself would be a 14/14 haste trampler. There's just no comparison between these two win-cons, 'Hoof is better by a mile.
Ezuri is also a less mana efficient 'Hoof. He might be considered if you are interested in his regen ability, but Path can still snipe your critical combo pieces despite Ezuri so I see him as being of limited utility. I tested him for quite a while but he was consistently underwhelming, whereas 'Hoof consistently kills if he lands on a board full of Elves. They basically have to have Fog or Torpor Orb, or to counter him.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
If he's brewing a deck that allowed him to sink 4W for +1/+1, I'm curious about his thoughts on Mirror Entity as it functionally does the same thing, but more efficiently for the activated ability, but less on the cost to put on the board.
My deck is mostly mono-g and can't run it. I used to have it, when I thought Wirewood Symbiote was legal. It was nice because you could then get infinite mana via Elvish Archdruid + Mirror Entity + Wirewood Symbiote.
LOL, I like that. Handily gets around Wirewood's "once per turn" limit which is the only thing keeping it in check. Impressive! Did you come up with that? And how well did it work for you? I suppose Mirror Entity is too expensive for Legacy (where it could team up with Wirewood). I suppose we're left to hope for a Standard reprint of Wirewood, which is probably just too good.
Edit: but, y'know, there is a Mirror Entity infinite mana combo that IS Modern-legal: Double Devoted Druid. In fact, I used to run it as an alt win-con in my Standard Mirror Entity combo deck (Venser-Lark).
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
The reason I'm playing Sunblade Elf goes much deeper than just "find a guy that you can sink mana into". It HAS to be a 1-drop, and an Elf, because of Heritage Druid. Just to give an example of why 1-drops are so important, here's a play that is only possible with 1s: T1 land, 1-drop; T2 land, 1-drop, Heritage Druid, 3-drop. You can't do that if the 1-drop was a 2 or more.
I'm playing Sunblade Elf not just because it has a pump effect, but because it has a pump effect AND is a 1-drop. I mean if I just wanted something that pumps I could play Selesnya Guildmage or additional Ezuris. When they tack on "hey, Sunblade Elf is a pretty good attacker too", well, how can I say no?
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
As for how it worked: I only goldfished with it. But I remember it enabling more turn 3 wins than before. The thing was, that not only were you making infinite mana with the combo, but you had a nice sink for the mana. It was quite easy to be attacking with 2 500/500s on turn 3.
So here's hoping Wirewood Symbiote becomes modern legal in the near future.
As far as I know, izzetmage was happy to hand off the reins to a different user. A lot of threads went through this kind of update and in every case the old OP was consulted before the switch.
In regards to the primer, a primer should reflect all versions of the deck, whether or not an OP agrees with them. For example, when I did the Restore Balance thread, I presented on both the Borderpost version and the No-Post version, even though I personally believed that the No-Post version was much better at the time. If destroyer doesn't want to write a section on a different version (whether due to disinterest, lack of experience, etc.), that's totally fine; someone else can just write it and he can paste it in the primer.
So feel free to send ideas for updates to destroyer. And remember that destroyer has only had the primer for a week or so. More updates are probably on his radar already! Everyone wants this thread to be the number 1 place for Combo Elves discussion online, and we can only get there if every "version" of the deck gets represented.
Reclamation Sage: obvious upgrade to Viridian Shaman. Sounds nice since it's Pactable, but there are two downsides to it: 1) it costs 3 mana instead of 2 (Seal of Primordium, Deglamer) or 1 (Nature's Claim) and 2) it's sorcery-speed. I think you'd only want 1 in the SB, and you'd play traditional artifact/enchantment hate in the other slots.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Elves is best when using Elves to blow up stuff instead of non-Elf stuff, with rare exception (Abrupt Decay being the only one I can think of, because it hits lots more stuff).
4 Arbor Elf
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal Force
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Dramatic Entrance
3 Summoner's Pact
6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Overgrown Tomb
Thoughts?
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
EDH
Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G
Legacy Elves puts that stuff sideboard because it doesn't need it for a lot of matchups, as we don't. It's still interesting and I'd like to see test results, but I'm pretty confident it's suboptimal. If you're going all in on G/B (which is the only way I'd try this, besides the Legacy method), you want Abrupt Decay in the main.
Dramatic Entrance/Summoner's Pact is cute as a pseudo-Natural Order. I think if it's good, it's only good if you go all in, and add 4x Fauna Shaman. I feel like the difference between 5 and 8 mana might be too small to matter a lot of the time and we'd be better off going the traditional route.
We absolutely have the luxury of value Becks.
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
EDH
Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G