I think you guys are underestimating having another 2/2 in sunblade elf that IS a sink for all that extra mana...at a 1-drop that you are happy to have as a 4 of. It applies pressure in the aggro plan and gives you more options for your mana. I think this card is quite where I want to be as an evolving old extended elf player. And with nykthos in my list I have an extra way to produce mana (its insurance for archdruid's benefit to the deck)
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I'm not entirely feeling the current sideboard, partly because Anger of the Gods negates the intended benefit of Vengevine. What would an answers focused sideboard look like for us?
Here are some cards I'm considering or will be using (please suggest more if you think of any):
Wilt-Leaf Liege/Obstinate Baloth/Thrun, as a threat that does not die to Anger/Bolt.
Another good reason to splash white instead of blue: the SB. Path to Exile, RIP, Stony Silence, Rule of Law.
And a few cards that I think are overrated: Skylasher, Vexing Shusher, Scryb Ranger. Yeah, on first inspection they say "I can beat up blue decks", but a lot of blue decks also play red. It's the red removal spells you have to watch out for, and sadly these guys die to a simple Bolt.
I've been thinking about elves recently because elves have always been fun to play (For me). So I thought I would run an idea by everyone here, I haven't done any playtesting on this idea so there are probably lots of numbers tweaks that need to happen. I just figured since I won't get to playtest it for another day or two at the earliest I would see what some people might suggest :
So there are a few interactions that I think could be very useful with Vialing and Elves :
Scryb Ranger + Fauna Shaman + Dryad Arbor = At its best here, where you use Dryad Arbor to activate the Shaman and then use Ranger to return the Dryad Arbor and untap the Fauna Shaman to be able to search up another creature.
Aether Vial + Dryad Arbor = God-hand Turn 1 : Forest, Vial, Go. End of Turn flash in dryad arbor. Allows for 3 mana on turn 2 with a vial at 1.
Elvish Champion + Lush Growth = Tons of man-lands in modern makes this somewhat attractive to test, as well if Tron gets more popular. Its a shame it doesn't cantrip or anything like that but against anything but Zoo it can be used to help hinder a fair amount of decks (thats the hope).
Vial + Viridian Zealot = The new 3 CMC elf might be better, but with a vial you might be able to save mana (and instant speed) artifact and enchantment destruction. With pod, affinity, and twin so popular I figure this isnt a horrible route to take.
Let me know what you guys think, I will let you know what I figure out after I get some testing in (even if I just chicken with it). I havent explored any splash colors, I figured the testing/sideboard would help to flesh that part out.
Still a little unsure about the sideboard, but I think I like where its at the for the most part. I might want to trade some things out/around for torpor orb(twin/RWU combo) and maybe Thorn of Amethyst(scapeshift / Jund / Control).
For my decisions on sideboard (let me know what you think plz) :
Lush Grow -> Helps vs tron or any deck that relies heavily on manlands. Happens to help with elvish champion. Still seems high on the cut list even though the deck feel super weak to tron.
Essence Warden -> Mostly for scapeshift, the hope is we can keep life out of reach of their combo. Can randomly help against 8rack, burn, affinity, pod (Sort of?), and twin (2x = never win.. 1x = pestermite only).
Setessan Tactics -> Might need more lords to really take advantage of this spell. Im not entirely sure where I would need it, but since green has a pseudo-removal spell I felt that having access to it was important.
Relic of Progenitus -> I felt this was overall better as a card than Grafdiggers Cage. Basically if I bring them in I bring them all in, and ideally with a few elvish visionary triggers (to dig to numbers 2 and 3) I can keep graveyards clear. This can go either way on being great or useless I know but it seems like having use against Snapcaster, Tarmogoyf, Living End, Gifts/Loam, and Pod was better than just hosing pod / snapcaster and nothing else.
She's a creature. They're going to pack as much removal and wrath as possible, so she probably wouldn't stick around; we need the effect to stick, and preferably multiply.
Anyway, as I said, I'm looking to overhaul the sideboard; not sure if that one will stay in or not.
I actually really like this duo aggro/combo deck. Slower than pure combo, but more resilient to blue/red. Not a big fan of the 2 faunas tho... I would simply up the warcaller count.
The sideboard is quite a mess but that's case by case I guess (I'm more of a 3-4 ofs, not 1-2 ofs).
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
That combo is basically a way to make the deck way more vulnerable to all kinds of hate than it was before. For that to work, you have to have Painter's alive, Dramatic and an Eldrazi in hand. And then you go "Dramatic Entrance" and they go "bolt Painter?", and you go "FFFUUUUUU..." Sorry but that's just waaaaaay too iffy. If the deck is having problems with UWR / UR based control, why would you want to run a combo that gets blown out by Lightning Bolt?
For what it's worth, for people wanting to go the more aggro route, I definitely would run four Warcallers before considering even one Imperious Perfect. Warcaller can double as a backup one-drop Elf if that's what you need to get Heritage online; Perfect can't.
Also don't see why that list didn't run all four Caverns. It's not legendary and it can tap for generic to help pay for Pact or Stampede. Almost every other spell in the entire deck is an Elf. What's the downside to four Cavern? Makes control m/u that much better for us.
I talked to him on the Twitters and he says based on his experiences, it's a safe unban. I only skimmed the videos but I agree based on that; it seems to put the deck on an even keel with all the removal around. In other words, it's exactly what we need.
On a related note, I'm going to test Chord of Calling post-M15 (once the price completely tanks).
I've been thinking about elves recently because elves have always been fun to play (For me). So I thought I would run an idea by everyone here, I haven't done any playtesting on this idea so there are probably lots of numbers tweaks that need to happen. I just figured since I won't get to playtest it for another day or two at the earliest I would see what some people might suggest :
So there are a few interactions that I think could be very useful with Vialing and Elves :
Scryb Ranger + Fauna Shaman + Dryad Arbor = At its best here, where you use Dryad Arbor to activate the Shaman and then use Ranger to return the Dryad Arbor and untap the Fauna Shaman to be able to search up another creature.
Aether Vial + Dryad Arbor = God-hand Turn 1 : Forest, Vial, Go. End of Turn flash in dryad arbor. Allows for 3 mana on turn 2 with a vial at 1.
Elvish Champion + Lush Growth = Tons of man-lands in modern makes this somewhat attractive to test, as well if Tron gets more popular. Its a shame it doesn't cantrip or anything like that but against anything but Zoo it can be used to help hinder a fair amount of decks (thats the hope).
Vial + Viridian Zealot = The new 3 CMC elf might be better, but with a vial you might be able to save mana (and instant speed) artifact and enchantment destruction. With pod, affinity, and twin so popular I figure this isnt a horrible route to take.
Let me know what you guys think, I will let you know what I figure out after I get some testing in (even if I just chicken with it). I havent explored any splash colors, I figured the testing/sideboard would help to flesh that part out.
On a related note, I'm going to test Chord of Calling post-M15 (once the price completely tanks).
Don't wait, test it now. Testing can be done with proxies, right? Let us know how it works for you. This isn't a budget thread, discussion here isn't limited to cards we have. Discuss the best possible list! If chord is needed, it's needed.
Regarding the Sunblade Elf topic: like mentioned before, I guess the card's just inferior to Joraga Warcaller. The only upside I see in Sunblade Elf is, that it's a 2/2 if played for G, but the pump-effect of Joraga Warcaller works just way better with the deck's way to produce mana. Under normal circumstances, you have to tap a good amount of your Elves to reach the +1+1 of Sunblade Elfs ability, which means your creatures can't attack and the pump is mainly useless. If you just used all the mana to kick your Joraga Warcaller instead, your team will swing for even more damage next turn, can be immune to Infest, Anger of the Gods and so on. Plus it's simply more mana-efficient, so Elvish Archdruid can't be an argument pro Sunblade Elf neither.
Strongly agree. No way Sunblade is a better mana sink than Joraga. For one thing, Warcaller is a mana sink that can fuel an immediately lethal attack. Got five mana and a bunch of elves? +2/+2 the team and swing in. If it's Sunblade you have to wait another turn for him to get out of summoning sickness. Warcaller, being a lord, can affect combat math / clock as soon as he arrives. Primary drawback is he can't be Chorded in like Perfect can as an instant-speed combat trick, but that's not really a major argument.
Yes, you're losing that +1+1 from Sunblade Elf here, but imo that doesn't outweight those upsides of Joraga Warcaller.
The great advantage of Warcaller is it plays to the deck's strength of being able to switch gears from aggro to combo or combo to aggro in the space of a single turn. Warcaller can be a lord or a one-drop for heritage / cloudstone abuse, whatever you happen to need at the moment. Sunblade can never be anything but Nettle Sentinel #'s 5-8.
Further, I don't think Beck // Call is a great card, but if you want to play it, it's good enough if you make adjustements to your deck and playstyle. Considering the U-issue, you can easily produce UU during your comboturn by waiting with your landdrop until you find a fetchland or a Breeding Pool. Just consider every blue source higher than greens and try to keep them open as long as possible. The fact that Beck costs GU is plain bad and requires more manasources as you start the combo, which leads to difficulties with our mana-engines.
*Sigh*. Everyone keeps saying this in this thread, and I keep pointing out that Manamorphose exists, and everyone keeps acting like I didn't even say it. Don't tell me the card isn't good enough for Modern, it's a combo staple. I run it in my build and its only flaw is that it can make some mulligan decisions trickier. When we don't need it it's a free cycle, when we do need it it's mana fixing, and if you have Nettle+Heritage online it becomes a mana generating Ritual. It fixes for Beck mid-combo turn without slowing us down. I've actually used a Manamorphose to cast a second Beck during a combo turn and draw two cards per creature (though that doesn't happen often). And it reduces our reliance on multicolor lands or having to keep a hand with Breeding Pool / Fetch in order to have a hope of Beck.
Regarding the other engines that we're able to play, I think that Intruder Alarm is bad. Most of the times, it's just a huge mana ritual, that has to be played before your acutal comboturn. Unlike Cloudstone Curio, Lead the Stampede or Beck // Call it isn't able to negate it's card-disadvantage, unless you're playing bad cards to make it work.
Agree with this. Alarm costs us a card that it never pays back. Add to this the side effect that it actually makes an enemy combo (twin) even easier for them to assemble, and I think Alarm's inferiority to Curio is patently obvious.
Lastly, I'm not playing the deck in tournaments anymore, but I wasn't that shocked to see people playing Anger of the Gods as their massremoval nowadays, because we got access to white in our sideboards (or should have, if we play Beck // Call), making Mark of Asylum an even better choice for Elves now. Most decks bring only removal to interact with us after sidboarding and a huge amount of these removals is damage-based. Nearly every one except Path to Exile and Dismember.
Good idea! I think I will start testing this. I already maindeck one Temple Garden so I can fetch it at need. Just don't forget that UWR will plan to go endstep Cryptic bouncing Mark, mainstep Anger wipe the team. Ie., same plan they run against bogles. You have to hold the Mark until the right moment, but don't hold it too long or they'll Clique it to the bottom. :\
Joraga Warcaller is a 3- or 5-drop that is sometimes a 1. Sunblade Elf is a 1-drop that is sometimes a 5. That's the difference. Your 1s are important because Heritage Druid basically makes them free. Furthermore, Warcaller forces you to commit to the amount you casted it for - if you play it as a 1-drop early for Heritage Druid, you can't take that back later if you need it as a 5.
Take, for example, a hand of 2 lands, Heritage Druid, 1-drop, Elvish Archdruid, Sunblade Elf, and some other card. You can perform this sequence:
T1 land, 1-drop
T2 land, HD, Sunblade Elf, Archdruid
T3 pump & swing (three 3/3s)
Now replace Sunblade Elf with Joraga Warcaller...what can you do? You can cast it as a 1-drop and swing on T3 with three 2/2s (worse than above). Or maybe T1 1-drop, T2 Archdruid, T3 HD, Warcaller for 3 or 5. Still slower than above.
Sunblade Elf needs more Elves to tap for its ability: this is why you should play Lead the Stampede. If When you reveal a bunch of 1-drops or an Archdruid with it, you can just cast them and use them to pay for the cost next turn. I mentioned earlier that 1s are important, this is one such case.
Let's say I have 2 lands and 5 guys (inclusive of Sunblade Elf). If I didn't have anything to cast, next turn I'm only attacking with one 2/2 and a 3/3 if I use Sunblade Elf to pump. However if I have Lead the Stampede and end up revealing three 1-drops (which I cast), next turn I can attack with four 2/2s and a 3/3. Much better.
Mana sink = no gas: Not true. Sometimes your draws just suck. Sometimes you have a decent aggro hand, with only a bunch of mana dorks and an Archdruid. Sunblade Elf makes those hands better - the aggro hand, for example, would result in a bunch of 2/2s, but with Sunblade Elf, you get to put Archdruid's mana-making to good use and attack with 3/3s instead.
I'll repeat this: 1-drops are very important. In the Lead the Stampede version, after maxing out on HDs, Sentinels and mana dorks you have 3-4 slots leftover for 1s. So the question is "what is the best 1-drop to fill those slots?" - I've gone through multiple candidates (Boreal Druid, Essence Warden, Twinblade Slasher, Joraga Warcaller) but in the end I think Sunblade Elf is the best 1-drop for those extra slots.
Look at every example you rebutted. You casted Warcaller for at least 3 in each of them.
In one of the examples you said "assume we have another 1-drop", that's basically saying Warcaller is amazing if you draw perfectly every time. That's not going to happen. I mean, you already admitted that this deck is inconsistent. Sometimes you will mulligan to 6, sometimes that 7th card will be a land or Visionary or Lead the Stampede. Sunblade Elf needs one less piece than Warcaller to do its thing, that's why it's better.
If you think that you will cast Joraga Warcaller more often as a 3 or 5, then go ahead and play him instead. Or better yet, play some other lord like Ezuri or Imperious Perfect. However in my experience it's more often that you'd want a 1 which has the option of being a mana sink later.
Short version: 1 with the option of dumping 5 mana into later > choose one and stick with it forever: 1, 3, 5.
Piece = seventh card, which you had assumed will always be a 1-drop.
If you think that you will cast Joraga Warcaller more often as a 3 or 5, then go ahead and play him instead. Or better yet, play some other lord like Ezuri or Imperious Perfect. However in my experience it's more often that you'd want a 1 which has the option of being a mana sink later.
Short version: 1 with the option of dumping 5 mana into later > choose one and stick with it forever: 1, 3, 5.
Piece = seventh card, which you had assumed will always be a 1-drop.
But Warcaller IS a 1 with the option of being a mana sink later - bounce him with Curio and recast as a lord.
Any thoughts on the use of Weird Harvest as a multi-creature tutor? I haven't gotten a chance to test it myself yet but in theory it could get you 3 combo pieces for 5 mana, which seems pretty good. The downside is mitigated by the fact that it's likely you'll win the turn after you cast it, so it may not be good against decks that run Linvala or some similar hoser, but against most decks it shouldn't be a problem if they get a few creatures out of it too.
Any thoughts on the use of Weird Harvest as a multi-creature tutor? I haven't gotten a chance to test it myself yet but in theory it could get you 3 combo pieces for 5 mana, which seems pretty good. The downside is mitigated by the fact that it's likely you'll win the turn after you cast it, so it may not be good against decks that run Linvala or some similar hoser, but against most decks it shouldn't be a problem if they get a few creatures out of it too.
This would only work on a turn you go for the win, theres no way you can let your opponent go searching for 2-3 creatures and let them deploy first.
Any thoughts on the use of Weird Harvest as a multi-creature tutor? I haven't gotten a chance to test it myself yet but in theory it could get you 3 combo pieces for 5 mana, which seems pretty good. The downside is mitigated by the fact that it's likely you'll win the turn after you cast it, so it may not be good against decks that run Linvala or some similar hoser, but against most decks it shouldn't be a problem if they get a few creatures out of it too.
People have not only tested it, it used to see play in some successful lists. LSV once ran it in his Grapeshot Elves combo list. So clearly the card has some potential. I personally prefer Summoners' Pact as a combo turn tutor because free is better than any amount of mana. With enough Elves out, Craterhoof Behemoth can make Summoners' Pact a free spell, because you don't have to pay for Pacts if you win first. I don't know if we need more than four tutor effects. Pact is definitely the first four. If we need tutors 5-8 I think WH is definitely the first option to explore.
But I think you're drastically underestimating the dangers of letting your opponent resolve whatever they find with WH. There are so many creatures that wreck us, it's not even funny. Against Pod, Twin, and UWR, you simply cannot let them untap after WH or they wreck you. UWR doesn't even need to untap - maybe all they need is to fetch Clique or Restoration Angel, or just Snapcaster for that Bolt in their yard to kill your combo piece and leave you dead in the water. Almost every creature in their deck has flash and they tend to play draw-go a lot. How can you just blindly WH into untapped islands? The downside risks are just horrific.
You also have to consider Chord of Calling. It only gets one creature and costs one more mana, but the advantage of being instant speed is very, very important. I have seen lists that ran Chord plus Ezuri to beat wraths, or would just go beatdown and Chord in the Heritage Druid when they had a window. I've even seen one person board in Yeva, Nature's Herald, Chord for her, and then go off generating elves on the opponent's end step. Having instant speed or flash is nothing to scoff at, and WH's sorcery slowness is its biggest weakness.
Any thoughts on the use of Weird Harvest as a multi-creature tutor? I haven't gotten a chance to test it myself yet but in theory it could get you 3 combo pieces for 5 mana, which seems pretty good. The downside is mitigated by the fact that it's likely you'll win the turn after you cast it, so it may not be good against decks that run Linvala or some similar hoser, but against most decks it shouldn't be a problem if they get a few creatures out of it too.
I play with and fully endorse Weird Harvest. But it plays very differently than Summoner's Pact and takes getting used to play correctly.
On turn 3 you start with Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Arbor Elf, Elvish Archdruid, and two Forests. Tap all 9 mana you have and dump 7 into Weird Harvest finding Regal Force, two Arbor Elves, and two Nettle Sentinels.
Use your last 2 mana to play the Nettle Sentinels and tap for 3 mana.
Play an Arbor Elf and tap for 3 more mana so 5 in the pool.
Play the other Arbor Elf and tap for 3 mana. 7 in the pool.
Play the Regal Force and draw 9 cards and have access to 3 mana.
If you were playing Pact + Craterhoof Behemoth you won't be able to win on that turn. You'd have a 10/10 and 8/8 trample for that turn.
Below are a list of decks based on Weird Harvest's effectiveness on a non-combo turn, (i.e. letting them have a turn with the creatures)
Great match-ups for Weird Harvest:
Tron, Gifts, Eggs 2.0, Scapeshift, Storm, Ad Nauseum
I play with and fully endorse Weird Harvest. But it plays very differently than Summoner's Pact and takes getting used to play correctly.
On turn 3 you start with Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Arbor Elf, Elvish Archdruid, and two Forests. Tap all 9 mana you have and dump 7 into Weird Harvest finding Regal Force, two Arbor Elves, and two Nettle Sentinels.
Use your last 2 mana to play the Nettle Sentinels and tap for 3 mana.
Play an Arbor Elf and tap for 3 more mana so 5 in the pool.
Play the other Arbor Elf and tap for 3 mana. 7 in the pool.
Play the Regal Force and draw 9 cards and have access to 3 mana.
What good is ending in that board state, aside from drawing a new hand to rebuild post wrath? Your opponent just fetches something awful and wrecks you before you untap. Ie., UWr just cliques you and pushes whatever you need the most, untaps, hits you for three, then verdicts. You're left with a hand of probably 3 lands and a few mana dorks, and 3/4 of your Nettles are now dead in the yard. :\
If you were playing Pact + Craterhoof Behemoth you won't be able to win on that turn. You'd have a 10/10 and 8/8 trample for that turn.
What with shocklands, 16-18 trample damage can often win games.
Below are a list of decks based on Weird Harvest's effectiveness on a non-combo turn, (i.e. letting them have a turn with the creatures)
Great match-ups for Weird Harvest:
Tron, Gifts, Eggs 2.0, Scapeshift, Storm, Ad Nauseum
Above Average:
Jund, Junk, UWr Control
Below Average:
Pod, Merfolk, Affinity, Living End
Poor:
Twin
I agree that Twin is a terrible m/u but how do you see UWr as good? They will be sitting there with untapped mana. If they have Cryptic then they just fetch Snaps and tap you out twice while punching you to death. If they don't have cryptic they can get Snaps and bolt-snap-bolt your combo enabler guys, or Clique to push one of the pieces you fetched for with the first one on the stack. Everyone in their deck has flash and their removal suite vs. your combo pieces is just crazy. And god help you if they're running Staticaster.
IMO UWr is already a miserable matchup and just becomes more hopeless if we are using WH instead of a tutor that only helps us. :\
Play the Regal Force and draw 9 cards and have access to 3 mana.
What good is ending in that board state, aside from drawing a new hand to rebuild post wrath? Your opponent just fetches something awful and wrecks you before you untap. Ie., UWr just cliques you and pushes whatever you need the most, untaps, hits you for three, then verdicts. You're left with a hand of probably 3 lands and a few mana dorks, and 3/4 of your Nettles are now dead in the yard. :\
You don't end in this board state. You now have all the pieces of the Combo besides a Cloudstone Curio on the board and you've just gone through 23 cards. Chances are high one of them is your Curio. Add in Manamorphose and Abundant Growth and you will hit the Curio and win this turn. It isn't 18 damage from Craterhoof and hope they have no blockers and shocked themselves. You will combo and do 3,000,000 points of damage.
Below are a list of decks based on Weird Harvest's effectiveness on a non-combo turn, (i.e. letting them have a turn with the creatures)
Great match-ups for Weird Harvest:
Tron, Gifts, Eggs 2.0, Scapeshift, Storm, Ad Nauseum
Above Average:
Jund, Junk, UWr Control
Below Average:
Pod, Merfolk, Affinity, Living End
Poor:
Twin
I agree that Twin is a terrible m/u but how do you see UWr as good? They will be sitting there with untapped mana. If they have Cryptic then they just fetch Snaps and tap you out twice while punching you to death. If they don't have cryptic they can get Snaps and bolt-snap-bolt your combo enabler guys, or Clique to push one of the pieces you fetched for with the first one on the stack. Everyone in their deck has flash and their removal suite vs. your combo pieces is just crazy. And god help you if they're running Staticaster.
IMO UWr is already a miserable matchup and just becomes more hopeless if we are using WH instead of a tutor that only helps us. :\
I am generally casting Weird Harvest before Cryptic Mana comes up and I also run Root Maze in my main. With all of their fetch lands this usually holds them up long enough. but I don't have any UWr players at my LGS, so this is just from my own testing. So I'll agree that UWr is probably a below average place to use Weird Harvest.
The rest of the match ups I play against at my LGS. I will say that my Junk player does have Ethersworn Canonist they fetch for, which sometimes messes up my plans. But in that case I go for a more Lord oriented fetch and make my creatures more efficient.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Here are some cards I'm considering or will be using (please suggest more if you think of any):
Here are some cards that hurt us a lot (please suggest more if you think of any):
Rough matchups (please suggest more if you think of any):
I wonder also if we should splash black for Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, and/or Surgical Extraction as in Legacy.
Another good reason to splash white instead of blue: the SB. Path to Exile, RIP, Stony Silence, Rule of Law.
And a few cards that I think are overrated: Skylasher, Vexing Shusher, Scryb Ranger. Yeah, on first inspection they say "I can beat up blue decks", but a lot of blue decks also play red. It's the red removal spells you have to watch out for, and sadly these guys die to a simple Bolt.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
4 AEther Vial
3 Cloudstone Curio
2 Lush Growth
Creatures
3 Dryad Arbor
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
3 Arbor Elf
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Viridian Zealot
2 Elvish Archdruid
2 Elvish Champion
2 Imperious Perfect
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
17 Forest
So there are a few interactions that I think could be very useful with Vialing and Elves :
Scryb Ranger + Fauna Shaman + Dryad Arbor = At its best here, where you use Dryad Arbor to activate the Shaman and then use Ranger to return the Dryad Arbor and untap the Fauna Shaman to be able to search up another creature.
Aether Vial + Dryad Arbor = God-hand Turn 1 : Forest, Vial, Go. End of Turn flash in dryad arbor. Allows for 3 mana on turn 2 with a vial at 1.
Elvish Champion + Lush Growth = Tons of man-lands in modern makes this somewhat attractive to test, as well if Tron gets more popular. Its a shame it doesn't cantrip or anything like that but against anything but Zoo it can be used to help hinder a fair amount of decks (thats the hope).
Vial + Viridian Zealot = The new 3 CMC elf might be better, but with a vial you might be able to save mana (and instant speed) artifact and enchantment destruction. With pod, affinity, and twin so popular I figure this isnt a horrible route to take.
Let me know what you guys think, I will let you know what I figure out after I get some testing in (even if I just chicken with it). I havent explored any splash colors, I figured the testing/sideboard would help to flesh that part out.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
4 AEther Vial
2 Cloudstone Curio
3 Lead the Stampede
Lords
2 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Archdruid
3 Elvish Champion
Utility
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Viridian Zealot
4 Heritage Druid
3 Dryad Arbor
3 Arbor Elf
3 Elvish Mystic
Beatdowm
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Nettle Sentinel
Lands
12 Forest
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Lush Growth
1 Viridian Zealot
3 Essence Warden
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3 Setessan Tactics
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Eternal Witness
Still a little unsure about the sideboard, but I think I like where its at the for the most part. I might want to trade some things out/around for torpor orb(twin/RWU combo) and maybe Thorn of Amethyst(scapeshift / Jund / Control).
For my decisions on sideboard (let me know what you think plz) :
Lush Grow -> Helps vs tron or any deck that relies heavily on manlands. Happens to help with elvish champion. Still seems high on the cut list even though the deck feel super weak to tron.
Essence Warden -> Mostly for scapeshift, the hope is we can keep life out of reach of their combo. Can randomly help against 8rack, burn, affinity, pod (Sort of?), and twin (2x = never win.. 1x = pestermite only).
Setessan Tactics -> Might need more lords to really take advantage of this spell. Im not entirely sure where I would need it, but since green has a pseudo-removal spell I felt that having access to it was important.
Relic of Progenitus -> I felt this was overall better as a card than Grafdiggers Cage. Basically if I bring them in I bring them all in, and ideally with a few elvish visionary triggers (to dig to numbers 2 and 3) I can keep graveyards clear. This can go either way on being great or useless I know but it seems like having use against Snapcaster, Tarmogoyf, Living End, Gifts/Loam, and Pod was better than just hosing pod / snapcaster and nothing else.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
Anyway, as I said, I'm looking to overhaul the sideboard; not sure if that one will stay in or not.
The sideboard is quite a mess but that's case by case I guess (I'm more of a 3-4 ofs, not 1-2 ofs).
Kinda feels like my 9th place elves deck back when lorwyn block was standard, I had 4x Bramblewood Paragon,4x Wren's Run Vanquisher and 4x Imperious Perfect.
Here's an idea to be tested:
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Painter's Servant
3x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Kozilek, Butcher of of Truth
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Regal Force
4x Dramatic Entrance
4x Summoner's Pact
Lands: 19
7x Forest
4x Mity Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Cavern of Souls
Obvious combo : Painter's Servant + Summoner's Pact + Dramatic Entrance + any fatty
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
more regal force (over Kozilek)
Progenitus (over Emrakul)
be better because you get to skip the whole painter's servant without sacrificing too much power?
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
That combo is basically a way to make the deck way more vulnerable to all kinds of hate than it was before. For that to work, you have to have Painter's alive, Dramatic and an Eldrazi in hand. And then you go "Dramatic Entrance" and they go "bolt Painter?", and you go "FFFUUUUUU..." Sorry but that's just waaaaaay too iffy. If the deck is having problems with UWR / UR based control, why would you want to run a combo that gets blown out by Lightning Bolt?
For what it's worth, for people wanting to go the more aggro route, I definitely would run four Warcallers before considering even one Imperious Perfect. Warcaller can double as a backup one-drop Elf if that's what you need to get Heritage online; Perfect can't.
Also don't see why that list didn't run all four Caverns. It's not legendary and it can tap for generic to help pay for Pact or Stampede. Almost every other spell in the entire deck is an Elf. What's the downside to four Cavern? Makes control m/u that much better for us.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
I talked to him on the Twitters and he says based on his experiences, it's a safe unban. I only skimmed the videos but I agree based on that; it seems to put the deck on an even keel with all the removal around. In other words, it's exactly what we need.
On a related note, I'm going to test Chord of Calling post-M15 (once the price completely tanks).
I really like Viridian Zealot as an answer to Torpor Orb.
Don't wait, test it now. Testing can be done with proxies, right? Let us know how it works for you. This isn't a budget thread, discussion here isn't limited to cards we have. Discuss the best possible list! If chord is needed, it's needed.
Strongly agree. No way Sunblade is a better mana sink than Joraga. For one thing, Warcaller is a mana sink that can fuel an immediately lethal attack. Got five mana and a bunch of elves? +2/+2 the team and swing in. If it's Sunblade you have to wait another turn for him to get out of summoning sickness. Warcaller, being a lord, can affect combat math / clock as soon as he arrives. Primary drawback is he can't be Chorded in like Perfect can as an instant-speed combat trick, but that's not really a major argument.
The great advantage of Warcaller is it plays to the deck's strength of being able to switch gears from aggro to combo or combo to aggro in the space of a single turn. Warcaller can be a lord or a one-drop for heritage / cloudstone abuse, whatever you happen to need at the moment. Sunblade can never be anything but Nettle Sentinel #'s 5-8.
*Sigh*. Everyone keeps saying this in this thread, and I keep pointing out that Manamorphose exists, and everyone keeps acting like I didn't even say it. Don't tell me the card isn't good enough for Modern, it's a combo staple. I run it in my build and its only flaw is that it can make some mulligan decisions trickier. When we don't need it it's a free cycle, when we do need it it's mana fixing, and if you have Nettle+Heritage online it becomes a mana generating Ritual. It fixes for Beck mid-combo turn without slowing us down. I've actually used a Manamorphose to cast a second Beck during a combo turn and draw two cards per creature (though that doesn't happen often). And it reduces our reliance on multicolor lands or having to keep a hand with Breeding Pool / Fetch in order to have a hope of Beck.
Agree with this. Alarm costs us a card that it never pays back. Add to this the side effect that it actually makes an enemy combo (twin) even easier for them to assemble, and I think Alarm's inferiority to Curio is patently obvious.
Good idea! I think I will start testing this. I already maindeck one Temple Garden so I can fetch it at need. Just don't forget that UWR will plan to go endstep Cryptic bouncing Mark, mainstep Anger wipe the team. Ie., same plan they run against bogles. You have to hold the Mark until the right moment, but don't hold it too long or they'll Clique it to the bottom. :\
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Take, for example, a hand of 2 lands, Heritage Druid, 1-drop, Elvish Archdruid, Sunblade Elf, and some other card. You can perform this sequence:
T1 land, 1-drop
T2 land, HD, Sunblade Elf, Archdruid
T3 pump & swing (three 3/3s)
Now replace Sunblade Elf with Joraga Warcaller...what can you do? You can cast it as a 1-drop and swing on T3 with three 2/2s (worse than above). Or maybe T1 1-drop, T2 Archdruid, T3 HD, Warcaller for 3 or 5. Still slower than above.
Sunblade Elf needs more Elves to tap for its ability: this is why you should play Lead the Stampede.
IfWhen you reveal a bunch of 1-drops or an Archdruid with it, you can just cast them and use them to pay for the cost next turn. I mentioned earlier that 1s are important, this is one such case.Let's say I have 2 lands and 5 guys (inclusive of Sunblade Elf). If I didn't have anything to cast, next turn I'm only attacking with one 2/2 and a 3/3 if I use Sunblade Elf to pump. However if I have Lead the Stampede and end up revealing three 1-drops (which I cast), next turn I can attack with four 2/2s and a 3/3. Much better.
Mana sink = no gas: Not true. Sometimes your draws just suck. Sometimes you have a decent aggro hand, with only a bunch of mana dorks and an Archdruid. Sunblade Elf makes those hands better - the aggro hand, for example, would result in a bunch of 2/2s, but with Sunblade Elf, you get to put Archdruid's mana-making to good use and attack with 3/3s instead.
I'll repeat this: 1-drops are very important. In the Lead the Stampede version, after maxing out on HDs, Sentinels and mana dorks you have 3-4 slots leftover for 1s. So the question is "what is the best 1-drop to fill those slots?" - I've gone through multiple candidates (Boreal Druid, Essence Warden, Twinblade Slasher, Joraga Warcaller) but in the end I think Sunblade Elf is the best 1-drop for those extra slots.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Look at every example you rebutted. You casted Warcaller for at least 3 in each of them.
In one of the examples you said "assume we have another 1-drop", that's basically saying Warcaller is amazing if you draw perfectly every time. That's not going to happen. I mean, you already admitted that this deck is inconsistent. Sometimes you will mulligan to 6, sometimes that 7th card will be a land or Visionary or Lead the Stampede. Sunblade Elf needs one less piece than Warcaller to do its thing, that's why it's better.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Short version: 1 with the option of dumping 5 mana into later > choose one and stick with it forever: 1, 3, 5.
Piece = seventh card, which you had assumed will always be a 1-drop.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
But Warcaller IS a 1 with the option of being a mana sink later - bounce him with Curio and recast as a lord.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
This would only work on a turn you go for the win, theres no way you can let your opponent go searching for 2-3 creatures and let them deploy first.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
People have not only tested it, it used to see play in some successful lists. LSV once ran it in his Grapeshot Elves combo list. So clearly the card has some potential. I personally prefer Summoners' Pact as a combo turn tutor because free is better than any amount of mana. With enough Elves out, Craterhoof Behemoth can make Summoners' Pact a free spell, because you don't have to pay for Pacts if you win first. I don't know if we need more than four tutor effects. Pact is definitely the first four. If we need tutors 5-8 I think WH is definitely the first option to explore.
But I think you're drastically underestimating the dangers of letting your opponent resolve whatever they find with WH. There are so many creatures that wreck us, it's not even funny. Against Pod, Twin, and UWR, you simply cannot let them untap after WH or they wreck you. UWR doesn't even need to untap - maybe all they need is to fetch Clique or Restoration Angel, or just Snapcaster for that Bolt in their yard to kill your combo piece and leave you dead in the water. Almost every creature in their deck has flash and they tend to play draw-go a lot. How can you just blindly WH into untapped islands? The downside risks are just horrific.
You also have to consider Chord of Calling. It only gets one creature and costs one more mana, but the advantage of being instant speed is very, very important. I have seen lists that ran Chord plus Ezuri to beat wraths, or would just go beatdown and Chord in the Heritage Druid when they had a window. I've even seen one person board in Yeva, Nature's Herald, Chord for her, and then go off generating elves on the opponent's end step. Having instant speed or flash is nothing to scoff at, and WH's sorcery slowness is its biggest weakness.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
On turn 3 you start with Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Arbor Elf, Elvish Archdruid, and two Forests. Tap all 9 mana you have and dump 7 into Weird Harvest finding Regal Force, two Arbor Elves, and two Nettle Sentinels.
Use your last 2 mana to play the Nettle Sentinels and tap for 3 mana.
Play an Arbor Elf and tap for 3 more mana so 5 in the pool.
Play the other Arbor Elf and tap for 3 mana. 7 in the pool.
Play the Regal Force and draw 9 cards and have access to 3 mana.
If you were playing Pact + Craterhoof Behemoth you won't be able to win on that turn. You'd have a 10/10 and 8/8 trample for that turn.
Great match-ups for Weird Harvest:
Tron, Gifts, Eggs 2.0, Scapeshift, Storm, Ad Nauseum
Above Average:
Jund, Junk, UWr Control
Below Average:
Pod, Merfolk, Affinity, Living End
Poor:
Twin
What good is ending in that board state, aside from drawing a new hand to rebuild post wrath? Your opponent just fetches something awful and wrecks you before you untap. Ie., UWr just cliques you and pushes whatever you need the most, untaps, hits you for three, then verdicts. You're left with a hand of probably 3 lands and a few mana dorks, and 3/4 of your Nettles are now dead in the yard. :\
What with shocklands, 16-18 trample damage can often win games.
I agree that Twin is a terrible m/u but how do you see UWr as good? They will be sitting there with untapped mana. If they have Cryptic then they just fetch Snaps and tap you out twice while punching you to death. If they don't have cryptic they can get Snaps and bolt-snap-bolt your combo enabler guys, or Clique to push one of the pieces you fetched for with the first one on the stack. Everyone in their deck has flash and their removal suite vs. your combo pieces is just crazy. And god help you if they're running Staticaster.
IMO UWr is already a miserable matchup and just becomes more hopeless if we are using WH instead of a tutor that only helps us. :\
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
I am generally casting Weird Harvest before Cryptic Mana comes up and I also run Root Maze in my main. With all of their fetch lands this usually holds them up long enough. but I don't have any UWr players at my LGS, so this is just from my own testing. So I'll agree that UWr is probably a below average place to use Weird Harvest.
The rest of the match ups I play against at my LGS. I will say that my Junk player does have Ethersworn Canonist they fetch for, which sometimes messes up my plans. But in that case I go for a more Lord oriented fetch and make my creatures more efficient.
Modern: UWR Control
EDH: Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Phelddagrif
Glissa, the Traitor
Rosheen Meanderer
RIP Jimmy foREVer