Could Kitchen Finks be banned? It is an odd choice, but it hurts pod and it's a card aggro and tempo both struggle against. I could see it happening. Alternatively, Voice of Resurgence hurts tempo and control, and is another pod staple.
Pod isn't dominating or breaking the turn 4 rule. It doesn't need a ban.
Seething Song needs to come off. It didn't speed up combo enough to consistently break the Turn 4 rule, and it would allow non-Scapeshift, non-Kiki, combo to be viable again.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I dont think combo needs a boost. It'd be good to see more viable fair decks, and I say that as a twin player.
That said Im not sure if seething song was really the problem card in storm. People keep suggesting banning grapeshot but if you really want to hurt the current version of storm while keeping other combo decks viable manamorphose is the card to go. Not that I'm suggesting this, but putting seething song into the format while taking manamorphose out would really neuter UR storm while making other combo decks viable, and I doubt they'd be oppressive.
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
GSZ has no purpose being banned. Chord of Calling is a way more powerful card. You don't have to actually pay mana, it can be any creature in your deck (no green-only downside), I mean what would GSZ ACTUALLY do? Ramp for a Dryad Arbor? Is that why it's still banned? Anything GSZ can do Chord of Calling can do better. That's like banning Stonehewer Giant and unbanning SFM. Just my two cents.
Could Kitchen Finks be banned? It is an odd choice, but it hurts pod and it's a card aggro and tempo both struggle against. I could see it happening. Alternatively, Voice of Resurgence hurts tempo and control, and is another pod staple.
Aside from Pod being fine, Kitchen Finks is one of the most important cards in the format to provide midrange/control with tools to not just die to aggro.
GSZ has no purpose being banned. Chord of Calling is a way more powerful card. You don't have to actually pay mana, it can be any creature in your deck (no green-only downside), I mean what would GSZ ACTUALLY do? Ramp for a Dryad Arbor? Is that why it's still banned? Anything GSZ can do Chord of Calling can do better. That's like banning Stonehewer Giant and unbanning SFM. Just my two cents.
GSZ is allegedly banned for reducing diversity in green decks. Basically every green midrangey deck wants to play it, which in turn encourages using a bunch of other cards (namely Dryad Arbor and various green silver bullets) and discourages playing nongreen creatures.
I think there's some truth to that argument, but I also think it was banned too soon. Philadelphia was a weird meta for a number of reasons, which were largely addressed by the other bans in that update, so I don't think it was fair to take the fact that all the green decks at that PT ran GSZ and extrapolate that to the future of the format. Jund rose to prominence not long after, and despite being a midrangey green deck I'm not really convinced that it actually wants GSZ. I doubt that the presence of GSZ would prevent Jund from appearing as a top-tier deck, either; it's hard to imagine that jamming Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, and Lightning Bolt into the same deck would ever not be a winning strategy.
It's possible that GSZ decks really would have dominated the format and stifled diversity, in which case the ban could have been justified, but it would have been nice to actually see what happened. I think it's a decent contender to be unbanned eventually, but I expect they're more likely to experiment with cards from the initial banlist before turning to things that were actually playable in the format at one point. (Wild Nacatl was an exception, but that ban was blatantly wrong in a way that something like GSZ wasn't.)
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1- GSZ needs to stay banned (and this coming from a toolbox/midrange player!), the only minimal chances that have GSZ is to switch the ban from GSZ to dryad arbor, but GSZ+Arbor is way too powerful
2-Finks, voice and other creatures will NEVER be banned, if pod becomes too much the ban will be pod itself (and right now pod is a t1 deck, but not a dominating deck in the format).
3-the formats need more unbans, not bans (and real unban, not switching like GSZ/arbor, batterskull/mystic, etc), i really hope that BBE unban in the future, but that its not happening while jund is tier 1/1,5
GSZ and Chord are apples and oranges. Anyone saying Chord is better, doesnt understand the roles each play in decks.
So now we are targeting all midrange decks by saying finks needs a ban? I agree if Pod gets out of hand, Wotc will ban Pod. But I also think Wotc has a close eye on the effects of new creatures in conjunction with Pod being played. I dont think we will see anything too much more crazy then voice for a while.
On Seething song, while it wa sin the format it lead to too many turn 3 wins according to Wotc's data from MTGO. I doubt we see Song come off any time soon.
GSZ and Chord are apples and oranges. Anyone saying Chord is better, doesnt understand the roles each play in decks.
Agreed. Chord is better in Pod. GSZ is better in decks like Junk, Zoo, and Hatebears.
So now we are targeting all midrange decks by saying finks needs a ban? I agree if Pod gets out of hand, Wotc will ban Pod. But I also think Wotc has a close eye on the effects of new creatures in conjunction with Pod being played. I dont think we will see anything too much more crazy then voice for a while.
While this is true, they do keep printing cards that slot into Pod. M15 had Reclamation Sage. Who knows what might be next?
On Seething song, while it wa sin the format it lead to too many turn 3 wins according to Wotc's data from MTGO. I doubt we see Song come off any time soon.
Agreed. The only way that that is happening is if we see some Storm swap bans.
Yeah the unban BBE + Jace plan seems to just lower diversity across the board from making GBx variants all into jund being strictly better again to all tier 2 decks dying to the increased power level of these 2 cards. It's hard to say if that's what would happen but it's not a "safe" unban by any means.
Perhaps a good way to explain the power of Green Sun's Zenith is to pull up something they said when they banned Deathrite Shaman:
"but normally playing mana acceleration comes at the cost of playing cards that are less powerful in the late game. Deathrite Shaman, however, is powerful at all stages of the game."
And that's basically Green Sun's Zenith in a nutshell. It's a turn 1 mana dork (into Dryad Arbor) that stays relevant no matter how long the game goes on, just like Deathrite Shaman. Granted, it doesn't have the side effect of being great graveyard hate, but the two cards are surprisingly similar in regards to their power when you get right down to it.
Perhaps a good way to explain the power of Green Sun's Zenith is to pull up something they said when they banned Deathrite Shaman:
"but normally playing mana acceleration comes at the cost of playing cards that are less powerful in the late game. Deathrite Shaman, however, is powerful at all stages of the game."
And that's basically Green Sun's Zenith in a nutshell. It's a turn 1 mana dork (into Dryad Arbor) that stays relevant no matter how long the game goes on, just like Deathrite Shaman. Granted, it doesn't have the side effect of being great graveyard hate, but the two cards are surprisingly similar in regards to their power when you get right down to it.
And their reasoning for the DRS ban was ridiculed by almost everyone. DRS was banned for making BGx too good. I am not sure why they didn't just list that as their reason, but that is the truth.
That is why it makes BGx too good tho, with DRS it has on curve powerful threats and the best disruption. Taking away DRS leaves them with subotimal 1 cmc cards as apposed to a one drop that is incredible on turn 1 and also a fine topdeck late in the game
And their reasoning for the DRS ban was ridiculed by almost everyone. DRS was banned for making BGx too good. I am not sure why they didn't just list that as their reason, but that is the truth.
They did list that as the reason. They said it in a kinda roundabout way, but that's really what they said.
I actually meant my comment more in the context of the Chord of Calling vs. Green Sun's Zenith thing, but I guess I didn't put it into that context. Speaking of which, let's give a more in-depth response to that...
GSZ has no purpose being banned. Chord of Calling is a way more powerful card.
Oh, right. That's why in Legacy, you see Chord of Calling and... oh, wait, that's not true. You see very little Chord of Calling in Legacy. And when you do, it's always in addition to 4x Green Sun's Zenith. And from what I can tell, Chord of Calling wasn't seeing real play when Green Sun's Zenith was available in Modern. This includes the Birthing Pod decks that existed back then.
Green Sun's Zenith costs XG. Chord of Calling costs XGGG. Costing two extra colored mana is a big deal. Yes, convoke can reduce it, but it requires you to have creatures in play to tap for it. It requires far more setup than Green Sun's Zenith. This means two things. First, it's not as good. Second, it's far more particular in what decks it can work in. For example, do you see any variant of Zoo playing Chord of Calling? No. But you can bet that Big Zoo would be jamming that Green Sun's Zenith, kinda like it was before the banning. Green Sun's Zenith is way way way more versatile, even if it can only get Green creatures. And honestly, Chord of Calling's mana cost means that you have to be playing it in a heavily Green deck anyway, so it's not like some deck with almost no Green creatures would be limited to only Chord of Calling, as they wouldn't play it anyway.
You don't have to actually pay mana, it can be any creature in your deck (no green-only downside),
You're right you don't have to pay mana if you have enough creatures in play. The fact you need creatures to be able to make it cost less is a very key balancing factor here.
But it's interesting you say "you don't have to actually pay mana." Okay... how often do you see a Chord of Calling get cast without any mana used at all, with everything being done off of convoke? Quite rarely, actually.
I mean what would GSZ ACTUALLY do? Ramp for a Dryad Arbor? Is that why it's still banned? Anything GSZ can do Chord of Calling can do better.
Odd you claim that anything GSZ can do Chord of Calling can do better... immediately after you notice something GSZ can do that Chord of Calling can't, which is to ramp into Dryad Arbor.
Chord of Calling takes several turns to even be castable, and then a few more before you can really be casting it more profitably (in terms of mana) than Green Sun's Zenith. And that's if your opponent doesn't simply kill off your creatures, kind of setting the Chord of Calling back.
You're looking at Green Sun's Zenith's power wrong. It's not really so much a tutor as a mana dork that becomes a tutor after the first turn. Hence my Deathrite Shaman comparison; it's a card that provides mana acceleration on turn 1 and then does a whole lot of other useful things afterwards. That's something that basically any deck can make use of as long as it's in the right colors. Chord of Calling, on the other hand, is just a useful card for a creature-based combo deck to find combo pieces with. You can expect to see Green Sun's Zenith in a whole lot more decks than Chord of Calling is played in (and most likely would replace Chord of Calling in the decks it is run in).
That's like banning Stonehewer Giant and unbanning SFM. Just my two cents.
These two situations aren't even remotely comparable.
I think everyone is forgetting that BBE and Jace are just too slow for the format. BBE is essentially: "cast one random maybe relevant spell in your deck" for 4 mana. The 3/3 is essentially irrelevant except in the BGx mirror and POSSIBLY the UWR match. But with combo decks winning on turn 4, BBE costing 4 (which Bob hates to begin with), and BBE whiffing half the time, I think it is a fine candidate for unbanning. Honestly, I wouldn't even play it if they unbanned it right now. Though I admit it probably should not exist simultaneously with DRS. As a Jund player, I'm partial to DRS coming off the ban list, because he is fine honestly, but that's another story entirely. He is too versatile, but certainly not too powerful. We should be worrying about the "too powerful" cards instead of little 1 drop mana dorks.
And Jace is just 4 mana sorcery speed brainstorm, followed by you getting killed by Affinity, smacked by Goyf, or comboed out on. Way too slow to be banned.
On another note, is it the general consensus that combo is overrepresented, aggro/control/tempo are underrepresented, and comboless midrange is sort of mediocre due to the power level of combo?
If so,
1) What is causing combo to be overrepresented?
2) What is causing aggro/control/tempo to be underrepresented?
3) How can we safely give comboless midrange more tools to work with?
Here are my thoughts:
1) Turn 4 is too fast. I am starting to really consider opting for a turn 5 rule. Too many decks do too many things that are too unfair these days, too quickly. Alot of the time I feel like games are, for all intents and purposes, over on turn 2-3. Turn 4 rule means decks are winning turn 3, with consistency at turn 4. We need to bump it up to an occasional turn 4, with consistency at turn 5, for combo at least. I think WoTC should also find some way to limit the max playable CMC of cards on turn X as well. For example, 6-7 mana cards on turn 3 should be require a god hand of like 5-6 specific cards, such as 3 mana dorks and 3 lands.
2) Affinity is shutting out aggro hard. It is too fast and too strong, and has access to too many tools at too little a cost.
Control is being shut down by the prominence of non-interactive cards like Birthing Pod, Etched Champion, Thrun, etc. We can't expect a deck whose job is to keep the board in check to do so when such overwhelmingly fantastic answers are available to the strategy.
As others have stated, Snap/Bolt sort of shuts down tempo. There are no good free counters in the format, which is a problem for the archetype. I for one would be fine with a Disrupting Shoal upgrade for the format, something in between it and FoW. A slightly worse Daze perhaps.
3) Comboless midrange needs more variety in the 1-2 cmc slot in order to be be quick enough if things stay how they are. There aren't enough playable 1 drops in general, nor are there many midrange creatures worth playing at 2. The 1 drops that are playable are mediocre cantrips, mana dorks, and discard (which really just gets burned by your opponent drawing any even remotely good card). I've said it before, but things like Blood Moon are not healthy for this format, a format where playing 3 colors already hurts you, and where 3 drops like Blood Moon come down turn 2 if you really want them to (Mox Opal/Springleaf for Affinity, Simian Spirit Guide for Living End, Mana Dorks for Pod, etc.)
The other day I was playing against 4 color Living End in a Modern FNM. He, on the play, turn 2 Blood Moons me, instantly ending the game, and during game 2, after being hit with Inquisition, resolves Living End on turn 2 for 4 massive guys followed by Blood Moon turn 3. Great game Wizards. I think I actually dropped, disgusted that a 4 color tier 2 deck maindecking Blood Moon was capable of beating Jund. It's the total lack of interactivity as early as turn 2-3 that leaves that bad taste in my mouth.
My opinion of Modern is slowly degrading, though I feel bottlenecked into playing the format. Standard is too pricey, rotating, and is too weak. Legacy is too pricey by far and too full of degeneracy, and is essentially a less powerful Vintage, and Vintage is too underplayed, and obviously extremely costly, even with 10 proxies! EDH is casual, obviously, so that doesn't help. Duel Commander is a pretty solid format, but with Duals (among other staples) going up and up and up, building optimal decks is tougher and tougher.
What does everyone thing about the questions I have posed?
BBE and Jace are both fair cards, I think they are safe in the current meta. BUT if the meta shifted to a more control/midrange route then we are looking at some powerful bombs.
1) Turn 4 is perfect. The only combo deck I see consistently killing turn 4 is Twin, only agro deck is Affinity. Pod usually doesn't win until the mid game or late game if their midrange plan fails. Honestly, it just sounds like you don't like combo.
2) Affinity isn't even good, there is SO MUCH HATE on that deck. And even then, unless they get a good hand they wont be killing you that fast. As for free counter spells, I don't think they would be fair in modern. Modern is meant to be different from Legacy and Legacy is known as being a FoW fueled format. Also 2 for 1'ing yourself to save a creature isn't that great.
3)Combo-less midrange decks need nothing. Most midrange decks have disruption turn 1, serum visions, fetch land, or bird. That's plenty variety. Blood Moon is PERFECT for this format. Being able to blow out your opponent with 1 card, punishing them for running a greedy mana base, is just fair. Otherwise there is no incentive to play a single or 2 color deck other than budget reasons.
Living End has been running Blood Moon for awhile, ive seen people doing it at my LGS for over a month now.
Your opinion on the format is pretty accurate (when comparing formats) but reasons for hating it aren't fair/reasonable. It seems you want to play some midrange-grindy format with little to no variance which is basically Jund's dream. But that isn't what some people enjoy, some people like playing combo decks (real combo and not real combo like Storm vs Twin) and aggressive decks like Affinity (which every color has enough hate for, and Control if they like countering everything and burning you out. This is the only format I feel represents all of this. Standard is all midrange/agro/UW stuff. Legacy is combo/Delver/brewer format and Vintage is just Storm/Gush/MUD and BUG.
Honestly, it sounds like you hate everything that is good about Magic as a game.
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U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
Oh, right. That's why in Legacy, you see Chord of Calling and... oh, wait, that's not true. You see very little Chord of Calling in Legacy. And when you do, it's always in addition to 4x Green Sun's Zenith. And from what I can tell, Chord of Calling wasn't seeing real play when Green Sun's Zenith was available in Modern. This includes the Birthing Pod decks that existed back then.
This is simply wrong. The Birthing Pod decks almost always played Chord of Calling, but rarely played GSZ.
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You're looking at Green Sun's Zenith's power wrong. It's not really so much a tutor as a mana dork that becomes a tutor after the first turn. Hence my Deathrite Shaman comparison; it's a card that provides mana acceleration on turn 1 and then does a whole lot of other useful things afterwards. That's something that basically any deck can make use of as long as it's in the right colors. Chord of Calling, on the other hand, is just a useful card for a creature-based combo deck to find combo pieces with. You can expect to see Green Sun's Zenith in a whole lot more decks than Chord of Calling is played in (and most likely would replace Chord of Calling in the decks it is run in).
I guess I can return the favor. The big difference and the reason why DRS is actually stronger than GSZ is that you have to chose a "mode" with GSZ. When you chose to fetch Dryad Arbor, you only have a bad mana dork that probably won't contribute anything to your late game. And it isn't even certain that you can search for Dryad Arbor, because you could have drawn into it and then you are even stuck with a bad land. DRS will always be graveyard hate, certain damage, lifegain and mana dork, no matter when you play it. And the assumption that every deck can use it if the play G is also probably wrong. If my deck is built on efficiency and doesn't have a toolbox, I don't think that GSZ would be a good choice for me. You set yourself up for another way to hate the deck and paying 1 more mana for every green creature is unatractive if you don't cover enough bases with your toolbox.
I guess I can return the favor. The big difference and the reason why DRS is actually stronger than GSZ is that you have to chose a "mode" with GSZ. When you chose to fetch Dryad Arbor, you only have a bad mana dork that probably won't contribute anything to your late game. And it isn't even certain that you can search for Dryad Arbor, because you could have drawn into it and then you are even stuck with a bad land. DRS will always be graveyard hate, certain damage, lifegain and mana dork, no matter when you play it. And the assumption that every deck can use it if the play G is also probably wrong. If my deck is built on efficiency and doesn't have a toolbox, I don't think that GSZ would be a good choice for me. You set yourself up for another way to hate the deck and paying 1 more mana for every green creature is unatractive if you don't cover enough bases with your toolbox.
You only search for dryad arbor on the first turn, can someone run the numbers for drawing 1 of your 4 GSZ and your 1 dryad arbor? Even then GSZ just functions as any other creature, now it is 'just' a tutor.
The problem is that the toolbox of green creatures is so strong, and the existence of GSZ in your deck makes these hosers a 5 of for every draw step as opposed to a one of. The reason you can print such powerful hosers is that outside of their effect they are usually bad when drawn in multiples or against the wrong deck, lessening the ability to run many copies (especially main!). Allowing any deck running GSZ to access them consistently narrows the construction of most green creature decks. At worst you can just find a beater for one mana more.
Now I'm not sure where I sit on the GSZ ban fence, I think that most green decks in this format don't exactly exist in the higher tiers on the back of a creature game plan so I'm not particularly sure what decks are being narrowed in construction. In fact I could almost say that green hatebears and the like could use the boost GSZ gives them.
If you figure the turn 4 rule is keeping 2 of the fastest and consistent combos out of the format, that says a lot. There just are not enough low costing policing cards across all colors to keep combo under control. Modern is combo players paradise.
2) What is causing aggro/control/tempo to be underrepresented?
This is 3 questions wrapped into one.
Aggro is underrepresented because of the turn 4 rule. There is no reason to play an inconsistent, fragile aggro deck when you can play a more consistent less fragile combo deck. Not to mention combo can just ignore aggro and play out its game plan with no worry of aggro beating them before the combo can go off.
Control is underrepresented because there are too many decks in the format and not enough room in the 75 to build for them all. You can build a control deck to deal with about 75% of the meta at one time and hope you dont run into the other 25% of the meta to top in an event. Also there are a few combo decks very resilient to control.
Tempo is lacking because of the speed of the format. If the tempo deck misses a draw or a land drop they are too far behind to catch up in a majority of cases. Tempo is just not consistent enough to be a regular player in most events.
3) How can we safely give comboless midrange more tools to work with?
Not sure they can without screwing up Standard and/or Modern. DRS is a great example.
You only search for dryad arbor on the first turn, can someone run the numbers for drawing 1 of your 4 GSZ and your 1 dryad arbor? Even then GSZ just functions as any other creature, now it is 'just' a tutor.
The problem is that the toolbox of green creatures is so strong, and the existence of GSZ in your deck makes these hosers a 5 of for every draw step as opposed to a one of. The reason you can print such powerful hosers is that outside of their effect they are usually bad when drawn in multiples or against the wrong deck, lessening the ability to run many copies (especially main!). Allowing any deck running GSZ to access them consistently narrows the construction of most green creature decks. At worst you can just find a beater for one mana more.
Now I'm not sure where I sit on the GSZ ban fence, I think that most green decks in this format don't exactly exist in the higher tiers on the back of a creature game plan so I'm not particularly sure what decks are being narrowed in construction. In fact I could almost say that green hatebears and the like could use the boost GSZ gives them.
With my mathematic skills (cough) I think it is ~4,7% on the play and ~6% on the draw without mulligan.
I know that GSZ is a good card, but given that the decks that would be improved by it are having a great amount of problems right now, I think that GSZ would be safe. Before the banning of GSZ we had three kinds of decks: The Midrange Combo decks that played Chord and Pod instead of GSZ to be able to search for all their combo pieces, the removal heavy GRx decks that also didn't play GSZ and the toolbox decks with GSZ. With GW hatebears not being able to make the numbers for established I only see the first two decks being competitive, which narrows the format down for me.
I know that GSZ is a good card, but given that the decks that would be improved by it are having a great amount of problems right now, I think that GSZ would be safe. Before the banning of GSZ we had three kinds of decks: The Midrange Combo decks that played Chord and Pod instead of GSZ to be able to search for all their combo pieces, the removal heavy GRx decks that also didn't play GSZ and the toolbox decks with GSZ.
None of those decks were good at PT Philadelphia, which was the only high-level Modern event in which GSZ was legal. There was one green creature deck (Blue Zoo) that did well, and it ran GSZ. That is all the real data we have about a format where GSZ is legal, which is why I said before that they should have waited longer. Banning a card only good in creature decks after an event where creature decks were generally awful doesn't really make sense.
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You only search for dryad arbor on the first turn, can someone run the numbers for drawing 1 of your 4 GSZ and your 1 dryad arbor? Even then GSZ just functions as any other creature, now it is 'just' a tutor.
The problem is that the toolbox of green creatures is so strong, and the existence of GSZ in your deck makes these hosers a 5 of for every draw step as opposed to a one of. The reason you can print such powerful hosers is that outside of their effect they are usually bad when drawn in multiples or against the wrong deck, lessening the ability to run many copies (especially main!). Allowing any deck running GSZ to access them consistently narrows the construction of most green creature decks. At worst you can just find a beater for one mana more.
Now I'm not sure where I sit on the GSZ ban fence, I think that most green decks in this format don't exactly exist in the higher tiers on the back of a creature game plan so I'm not particularly sure what decks are being narrowed in construction. In fact I could almost say that green hatebears and the like could use the boost GSZ gives them.
With my mathematic skills (cough) I think it is ~4,7% on the play and ~6% on the draw without mulligan.
I know that GSZ is a good card, but given that the decks that would be improved by it are having a great amount of problems right now, I think that GSZ would be safe. Before the banning of GSZ we had three kinds of decks: The Midrange Combo decks that played Chord and Pod instead of GSZ to be able to search for all their combo pieces, the removal heavy GRx decks that also didn't play GSZ and the toolbox decks with GSZ. With GW hatebears not being able to make the numbers for established I only see the first two decks being competitive, which narrows the format down for me.
To be honest even with GSZ I would see no reason to play a midrange deck that is not BGx. The power level in those colors is just so high that I dont really see those decks coming even close to competing with Jund/Junk/BG Rock.
And their reasoning for the DRS ban was ridiculed by almost everyone. DRS was banned for making BGx too good. I am not sure why they didn't just list that as their reason, but that is the truth.
They did list that as the reason. They said it in a kinda roundabout way, but that's really what they said.
That's what they implied, but they said it in a confusing way.
GSZ has no purpose being banned. Chord of Calling is a way more powerful card.
Oh, right. That's why in Legacy, you see Chord of Calling and... oh, wait, that's not true. You see very little Chord of Calling in Legacy. And when you do, it's always in addition to 4x Green Sun's Zenith. And from what I can tell, Chord of Calling wasn't seeing real play when Green Sun's Zenith was available in Modern. This includes the Birthing Pod decks that existed back then.
Source for GSZ often being in Pod needed. It is really bad in there. The cards that Chord fetches for are generally nongreen. Restoration Angel. Archangel of Thune. Murderous Redcap. Ranger of Eos. Entomber Exarch. Ethersworn Canonist.
Green Sun's Zenith costs XG. Chord of Calling costs XGGG. Costing two extra colored mana is a big deal. Yes, convoke can reduce it, but it requires you to have creatures in play to tap for it. It requires far more setup than Green Sun's Zenith. This means two things. First, it's not as good. Second, it's far more particular in what decks it can work in. For example, do you see any variant of Zoo playing Chord of Calling? No. But you can bet that Big Zoo would be jamming that Green Sun's Zenith, kinda like it was before the banning. Green Sun's Zenith is way way way more versatile, even if it can only get Green creatures. And honestly, Chord of Calling's mana cost means that you have to be playing it in a heavily Green deck anyway, so it's not like some deck with almost no Green creatures would be limited to only Chord of Calling, as they wouldn't play it anyway.
Big Zoo getting a boost would be a good thing.
I mean what would GSZ ACTUALLY do? Ramp for a Dryad Arbor? Is that why it's still banned? Anything GSZ can do Chord of Calling can do better.
Odd you claim that anything GSZ can do Chord of Calling can do better... immediately after you notice something GSZ can do that Chord of Calling can't, which is to ramp into Dryad Arbor.
Chord of Calling takes several turns to even be castable, and then a few more before you can really be casting it more profitably (in terms of mana) than Green Sun's Zenith. And that's if your opponent doesn't simply kill off your creatures, kind of setting the Chord of Calling back.
You're looking at Green Sun's Zenith's power wrong. It's not really so much a tutor as a mana dork that becomes a tutor after the first turn. Hence my Deathrite Shaman comparison; it's a card that provides mana acceleration on turn 1 and then does a whole lot of other useful things afterwards. That's something that basically any deck can make use of as long as it's in the right colors. Chord of Calling, on the other hand, is just a useful card for a creature-based combo deck to find combo pieces with. You can expect to see Green Sun's Zenith in a whole lot more decks than Chord of Calling is played in (and most likely would replace Chord of Calling in the decks it is run in).
While I agree that GSZ is more powerful than Chord, it would not replace Chord in decks like Pod. However, since it very well might be played in Jund, I have a better idea. A triple unban of GSZ, Jace, and BBE. Thoughts?
If you figure the turn 4 rule is keeping 2 of the fastest and consistent combos out of the format, that says a lot. There just are not enough low costing policing cards across all colors to keep combo under control. Modern is combo players paradise.
I don't think that this is the reason. Aggro would be even worse with combo being unplayable/slower, because then midrange and control can stop boarding against combo and can increase their answers against creatures. The problem, as far as I can see, is the design magic has for agressive creatures. The creatures with the best stats are all basicly blank. The cardgames I played where aggro was highly competitive didn't just give agressive creatures just more attack and defense, they instead gave them abilities to disrupt and slow down the oponent or dodge removal. Aggro per definition has to pick now the blank beaters, which results in them being a one trick pony and soft to any kind of hate.
Aggro is underrepresented because of the turn 4 rule. There is no reason to play an inconsistent, fragile aggro deck when you can play a more consistent less fragile combo deck. Not to mention combo can just ignore aggro and play out its game plan with no worry of aggro beating them before the combo can go off.
Aggro decks are the most consistent decks in the format. The problem like I said above is that aggro decks are class canon decks that often even have problems against the same hate cards you play against the two most popular combo decks. Anger of the Gods for example is one of the best cards against Pod and Small Zoo, Path to Exile deals with Exarch and Goyf etc. But Aggro doesn't have the ways to protect itself from this hatecards like Twin/Pod can without including not so agressive cards, which would make them midrange.
Control is underrepresented because there are too many decks in the format and not enough room in the 75 to build for them all. You can build a control deck to deal with about 75% of the meta at one time and hope you dont run into the other 25% of the meta to top in an event. Also there are a few combo decks very resilient to control.
I'd add that they banned the cards that would remove or smoothen this problem.
3) How can we safely give comboless midrange more tools to work with?
The easiest way is encouraging the use of hatebears. The unbanning of GSZ and a swap ban from SFM to Batterskull would help such strategies by giving them consistency/ the ability to push through with cards that can't normally go past normal beaters. Another option would be printing hatebears with better stats.
To be honest even with GSZ I would see no reason to play a midrange deck that is not BGx. The power level in those colors is just so high that I dont really see those decks coming even close to competing with Jund/Junk/BG Rock.
I am not sure about this. GWB with Zenith is certainly tempting, but even if it would be the strongest GSZ deck, it would play very differently than the current GBx decks. With GSZ you will probably play at least the playset of Noble Hierach and at least a small toolbox with GW creatures. This won't allow you to play the complete suit of Thoughtseize, Bob, Liliana, Abrupt Decay and Lingering Souls.
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Pod isn't dominating or breaking the turn 4 rule. It doesn't need a ban.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
That said Im not sure if seething song was really the problem card in storm. People keep suggesting banning grapeshot but if you really want to hurt the current version of storm while keeping other combo decks viable manamorphose is the card to go. Not that I'm suggesting this, but putting seething song into the format while taking manamorphose out would really neuter UR storm while making other combo decks viable, and I doubt they'd be oppressive.
Aside from Pod being fine, Kitchen Finks is one of the most important cards in the format to provide midrange/control with tools to not just die to aggro.
I think there's some truth to that argument, but I also think it was banned too soon. Philadelphia was a weird meta for a number of reasons, which were largely addressed by the other bans in that update, so I don't think it was fair to take the fact that all the green decks at that PT ran GSZ and extrapolate that to the future of the format. Jund rose to prominence not long after, and despite being a midrangey green deck I'm not really convinced that it actually wants GSZ. I doubt that the presence of GSZ would prevent Jund from appearing as a top-tier deck, either; it's hard to imagine that jamming Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, and Lightning Bolt into the same deck would ever not be a winning strategy.
It's possible that GSZ decks really would have dominated the format and stifled diversity, in which case the ban could have been justified, but it would have been nice to actually see what happened. I think it's a decent contender to be unbanned eventually, but I expect they're more likely to experiment with cards from the initial banlist before turning to things that were actually playable in the format at one point. (Wild Nacatl was an exception, but that ban was blatantly wrong in a way that something like GSZ wasn't.)
2-Finks, voice and other creatures will NEVER be banned, if pod becomes too much the ban will be pod itself (and right now pod is a t1 deck, but not a dominating deck in the format).
3-the formats need more unbans, not bans (and real unban, not switching like GSZ/arbor, batterskull/mystic, etc), i really hope that BBE unban in the future, but that its not happening while jund is tier 1/1,5
So now we are targeting all midrange decks by saying finks needs a ban? I agree if Pod gets out of hand, Wotc will ban Pod. But I also think Wotc has a close eye on the effects of new creatures in conjunction with Pod being played. I dont think we will see anything too much more crazy then voice for a while.
On Seething song, while it wa sin the format it lead to too many turn 3 wins according to Wotc's data from MTGO. I doubt we see Song come off any time soon.
Agreed. Chord is better in Pod. GSZ is better in decks like Junk, Zoo, and Hatebears.
While this is true, they do keep printing cards that slot into Pod. M15 had Reclamation Sage. Who knows what might be next?
Agreed. The only way that that is happening is if we see some Storm swap bans.
It all depends on what else was unbanned first.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
"but normally playing mana acceleration comes at the cost of playing cards that are less powerful in the late game. Deathrite Shaman, however, is powerful at all stages of the game."
And that's basically Green Sun's Zenith in a nutshell. It's a turn 1 mana dork (into Dryad Arbor) that stays relevant no matter how long the game goes on, just like Deathrite Shaman. Granted, it doesn't have the side effect of being great graveyard hate, but the two cards are surprisingly similar in regards to their power when you get right down to it.
And their reasoning for the DRS ban was ridiculed by almost everyone. DRS was banned for making BGx too good. I am not sure why they didn't just list that as their reason, but that is the truth.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I actually meant my comment more in the context of the Chord of Calling vs. Green Sun's Zenith thing, but I guess I didn't put it into that context. Speaking of which, let's give a more in-depth response to that...
Oh, right. That's why in Legacy, you see Chord of Calling and... oh, wait, that's not true. You see very little Chord of Calling in Legacy. And when you do, it's always in addition to 4x Green Sun's Zenith. And from what I can tell, Chord of Calling wasn't seeing real play when Green Sun's Zenith was available in Modern. This includes the Birthing Pod decks that existed back then.
Green Sun's Zenith costs XG. Chord of Calling costs XGGG. Costing two extra colored mana is a big deal. Yes, convoke can reduce it, but it requires you to have creatures in play to tap for it. It requires far more setup than Green Sun's Zenith. This means two things. First, it's not as good. Second, it's far more particular in what decks it can work in. For example, do you see any variant of Zoo playing Chord of Calling? No. But you can bet that Big Zoo would be jamming that Green Sun's Zenith, kinda like it was before the banning. Green Sun's Zenith is way way way more versatile, even if it can only get Green creatures. And honestly, Chord of Calling's mana cost means that you have to be playing it in a heavily Green deck anyway, so it's not like some deck with almost no Green creatures would be limited to only Chord of Calling, as they wouldn't play it anyway.
You're right you don't have to pay mana if you have enough creatures in play. The fact you need creatures to be able to make it cost less is a very key balancing factor here.
But it's interesting you say "you don't have to actually pay mana." Okay... how often do you see a Chord of Calling get cast without any mana used at all, with everything being done off of convoke? Quite rarely, actually.
Odd you claim that anything GSZ can do Chord of Calling can do better... immediately after you notice something GSZ can do that Chord of Calling can't, which is to ramp into Dryad Arbor.
Chord of Calling takes several turns to even be castable, and then a few more before you can really be casting it more profitably (in terms of mana) than Green Sun's Zenith. And that's if your opponent doesn't simply kill off your creatures, kind of setting the Chord of Calling back.
You're looking at Green Sun's Zenith's power wrong. It's not really so much a tutor as a mana dork that becomes a tutor after the first turn. Hence my Deathrite Shaman comparison; it's a card that provides mana acceleration on turn 1 and then does a whole lot of other useful things afterwards. That's something that basically any deck can make use of as long as it's in the right colors. Chord of Calling, on the other hand, is just a useful card for a creature-based combo deck to find combo pieces with. You can expect to see Green Sun's Zenith in a whole lot more decks than Chord of Calling is played in (and most likely would replace Chord of Calling in the decks it is run in).
These two situations aren't even remotely comparable.
And Jace is just 4 mana sorcery speed brainstorm, followed by you getting killed by Affinity, smacked by Goyf, or comboed out on. Way too slow to be banned.
On another note, is it the general consensus that combo is overrepresented, aggro/control/tempo are underrepresented, and comboless midrange is sort of mediocre due to the power level of combo?
If so,
1) What is causing combo to be overrepresented?
2) What is causing aggro/control/tempo to be underrepresented?
3) How can we safely give comboless midrange more tools to work with?
Here are my thoughts:
1) Turn 4 is too fast. I am starting to really consider opting for a turn 5 rule. Too many decks do too many things that are too unfair these days, too quickly. Alot of the time I feel like games are, for all intents and purposes, over on turn 2-3. Turn 4 rule means decks are winning turn 3, with consistency at turn 4. We need to bump it up to an occasional turn 4, with consistency at turn 5, for combo at least. I think WoTC should also find some way to limit the max playable CMC of cards on turn X as well. For example, 6-7 mana cards on turn 3 should be require a god hand of like 5-6 specific cards, such as 3 mana dorks and 3 lands.
2) Affinity is shutting out aggro hard. It is too fast and too strong, and has access to too many tools at too little a cost.
Control is being shut down by the prominence of non-interactive cards like Birthing Pod, Etched Champion, Thrun, etc. We can't expect a deck whose job is to keep the board in check to do so when such overwhelmingly fantastic answers are available to the strategy.
As others have stated, Snap/Bolt sort of shuts down tempo. There are no good free counters in the format, which is a problem for the archetype. I for one would be fine with a Disrupting Shoal upgrade for the format, something in between it and FoW. A slightly worse Daze perhaps.
3) Comboless midrange needs more variety in the 1-2 cmc slot in order to be be quick enough if things stay how they are. There aren't enough playable 1 drops in general, nor are there many midrange creatures worth playing at 2. The 1 drops that are playable are mediocre cantrips, mana dorks, and discard (which really just gets burned by your opponent drawing any even remotely good card). I've said it before, but things like Blood Moon are not healthy for this format, a format where playing 3 colors already hurts you, and where 3 drops like Blood Moon come down turn 2 if you really want them to (Mox Opal/Springleaf for Affinity, Simian Spirit Guide for Living End, Mana Dorks for Pod, etc.)
The other day I was playing against 4 color Living End in a Modern FNM. He, on the play, turn 2 Blood Moons me, instantly ending the game, and during game 2, after being hit with Inquisition, resolves Living End on turn 2 for 4 massive guys followed by Blood Moon turn 3. Great game Wizards. I think I actually dropped, disgusted that a 4 color tier 2 deck maindecking Blood Moon was capable of beating Jund. It's the total lack of interactivity as early as turn 2-3 that leaves that bad taste in my mouth.
My opinion of Modern is slowly degrading, though I feel bottlenecked into playing the format. Standard is too pricey, rotating, and is too weak. Legacy is too pricey by far and too full of degeneracy, and is essentially a less powerful Vintage, and Vintage is too underplayed, and obviously extremely costly, even with 10 proxies! EDH is casual, obviously, so that doesn't help. Duel Commander is a pretty solid format, but with Duals (among other staples) going up and up and up, building optimal decks is tougher and tougher.
What does everyone thing about the questions I have posed?
BBE and Jace are both fair cards, I think they are safe in the current meta. BUT if the meta shifted to a more control/midrange route then we are looking at some powerful bombs.
1) Turn 4 is perfect. The only combo deck I see consistently killing turn 4 is Twin, only agro deck is Affinity. Pod usually doesn't win until the mid game or late game if their midrange plan fails. Honestly, it just sounds like you don't like combo.
2) Affinity isn't even good, there is SO MUCH HATE on that deck. And even then, unless they get a good hand they wont be killing you that fast. As for free counter spells, I don't think they would be fair in modern. Modern is meant to be different from Legacy and Legacy is known as being a FoW fueled format. Also 2 for 1'ing yourself to save a creature isn't that great.
3)Combo-less midrange decks need nothing. Most midrange decks have disruption turn 1, serum visions, fetch land, or bird. That's plenty variety. Blood Moon is PERFECT for this format. Being able to blow out your opponent with 1 card, punishing them for running a greedy mana base, is just fair. Otherwise there is no incentive to play a single or 2 color deck other than budget reasons.
Living End has been running Blood Moon for awhile, ive seen people doing it at my LGS for over a month now.
Your opinion on the format is pretty accurate (when comparing formats) but reasons for hating it aren't fair/reasonable. It seems you want to play some midrange-grindy format with little to no variance which is basically Jund's dream. But that isn't what some people enjoy, some people like playing combo decks (real combo and not real combo like Storm vs Twin) and aggressive decks like Affinity (which every color has enough hate for, and Control if they like countering everything and burning you out. This is the only format I feel represents all of this. Standard is all midrange/agro/UW stuff. Legacy is combo/Delver/brewer format and Vintage is just Storm/Gush/MUD and BUG.
Honestly, it sounds like you hate everything that is good about Magic as a game.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
This is simply wrong. The Birthing Pod decks almost always played Chord of Calling, but rarely played GSZ.
I guess I can return the favor. The big difference and the reason why DRS is actually stronger than GSZ is that you have to chose a "mode" with GSZ. When you chose to fetch Dryad Arbor, you only have a bad mana dork that probably won't contribute anything to your late game. And it isn't even certain that you can search for Dryad Arbor, because you could have drawn into it and then you are even stuck with a bad land. DRS will always be graveyard hate, certain damage, lifegain and mana dork, no matter when you play it. And the assumption that every deck can use it if the play G is also probably wrong. If my deck is built on efficiency and doesn't have a toolbox, I don't think that GSZ would be a good choice for me. You set yourself up for another way to hate the deck and paying 1 more mana for every green creature is unatractive if you don't cover enough bases with your toolbox.
You only search for dryad arbor on the first turn, can someone run the numbers for drawing 1 of your 4 GSZ and your 1 dryad arbor? Even then GSZ just functions as any other creature, now it is 'just' a tutor.
The problem is that the toolbox of green creatures is so strong, and the existence of GSZ in your deck makes these hosers a 5 of for every draw step as opposed to a one of. The reason you can print such powerful hosers is that outside of their effect they are usually bad when drawn in multiples or against the wrong deck, lessening the ability to run many copies (especially main!). Allowing any deck running GSZ to access them consistently narrows the construction of most green creature decks. At worst you can just find a beater for one mana more.
Now I'm not sure where I sit on the GSZ ban fence, I think that most green decks in this format don't exactly exist in the higher tiers on the back of a creature game plan so I'm not particularly sure what decks are being narrowed in construction. In fact I could almost say that green hatebears and the like could use the boost GSZ gives them.
If you figure the turn 4 rule is keeping 2 of the fastest and consistent combos out of the format, that says a lot. There just are not enough low costing policing cards across all colors to keep combo under control. Modern is combo players paradise.
This is 3 questions wrapped into one.
Aggro is underrepresented because of the turn 4 rule. There is no reason to play an inconsistent, fragile aggro deck when you can play a more consistent less fragile combo deck. Not to mention combo can just ignore aggro and play out its game plan with no worry of aggro beating them before the combo can go off.
Control is underrepresented because there are too many decks in the format and not enough room in the 75 to build for them all. You can build a control deck to deal with about 75% of the meta at one time and hope you dont run into the other 25% of the meta to top in an event. Also there are a few combo decks very resilient to control.
Tempo is lacking because of the speed of the format. If the tempo deck misses a draw or a land drop they are too far behind to catch up in a majority of cases. Tempo is just not consistent enough to be a regular player in most events.
Not sure they can without screwing up Standard and/or Modern. DRS is a great example.
With my mathematic skills (cough) I think it is ~4,7% on the play and ~6% on the draw without mulligan.
I know that GSZ is a good card, but given that the decks that would be improved by it are having a great amount of problems right now, I think that GSZ would be safe. Before the banning of GSZ we had three kinds of decks: The Midrange Combo decks that played Chord and Pod instead of GSZ to be able to search for all their combo pieces, the removal heavy GRx decks that also didn't play GSZ and the toolbox decks with GSZ. With GW hatebears not being able to make the numbers for established I only see the first two decks being competitive, which narrows the format down for me.
To be honest even with GSZ I would see no reason to play a midrange deck that is not BGx. The power level in those colors is just so high that I dont really see those decks coming even close to competing with Jund/Junk/BG Rock.
That's what they implied, but they said it in a confusing way.
Source for GSZ often being in Pod needed. It is really bad in there. The cards that Chord fetches for are generally nongreen. Restoration Angel. Archangel of Thune. Murderous Redcap. Ranger of Eos. Entomber Exarch. Ethersworn Canonist.
Big Zoo getting a boost would be a good thing.
While I agree that GSZ is more powerful than Chord, it would not replace Chord in decks like Pod. However, since it very well might be played in Jund, I have a better idea. A triple unban of GSZ, Jace, and BBE. Thoughts?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I don't think that this is the reason. Aggro would be even worse with combo being unplayable/slower, because then midrange and control can stop boarding against combo and can increase their answers against creatures. The problem, as far as I can see, is the design magic has for agressive creatures. The creatures with the best stats are all basicly blank. The cardgames I played where aggro was highly competitive didn't just give agressive creatures just more attack and defense, they instead gave them abilities to disrupt and slow down the oponent or dodge removal. Aggro per definition has to pick now the blank beaters, which results in them being a one trick pony and soft to any kind of hate.
Aggro decks are the most consistent decks in the format. The problem like I said above is that aggro decks are class canon decks that often even have problems against the same hate cards you play against the two most popular combo decks. Anger of the Gods for example is one of the best cards against Pod and Small Zoo, Path to Exile deals with Exarch and Goyf etc. But Aggro doesn't have the ways to protect itself from this hatecards like Twin/Pod can without including not so agressive cards, which would make them midrange.
I'd add that they banned the cards that would remove or smoothen this problem.
The easiest way is encouraging the use of hatebears. The unbanning of GSZ and a swap ban from SFM to Batterskull would help such strategies by giving them consistency/ the ability to push through with cards that can't normally go past normal beaters. Another option would be printing hatebears with better stats.
I am not sure about this. GWB with Zenith is certainly tempting, but even if it would be the strongest GSZ deck, it would play very differently than the current GBx decks. With GSZ you will probably play at least the playset of Noble Hierach and at least a small toolbox with GW creatures. This won't allow you to play the complete suit of Thoughtseize, Bob, Liliana, Abrupt Decay and Lingering Souls.