Otherwise, oldschool attrition-y MU's are probably one of the better bets. It can't value its way through jund removal/advantage, especially when it's not playing something like company. In retrospect, that's probably what made humans such a great meta-call: people not playing their BGx midrange decks.
That's an interesting hypothesis, could very well be true. Removal heavy decks can destroy that Humans deck, but if you're light on interaction their synergies quickly build to a crescendo.
Otherwise, oldschool attrition-y MU's are probably one of the better bets. It can't value its way through jund removal/advantage, especially when it's not playing something like company. In retrospect, that's probably what made humans such a great meta-call: people not playing their BGx midrange decks.
That's an interesting hypothesis, could very well be true. Removal heavy decks can destroy that Humans deck, but if you're light on interaction their synergies quickly build to a crescendo.
I'd say the tough matchups are decks which run maindeck sweepers. Humans can (should) be able to (on average) brute-force its way through the couple of spot-removal spells a jund type deck would draw before the game was over. The hand disruption and meddling mage interactions are a strong game against jund and similar decks.
There will always be games where your gbx player draws six removal spells and one threat and just gets there, but in aggregate I believe humans has the edge in this matchup. Aether vial is also a huge step-up in terms of being able to quickly deploy that front-loaded disruption in an overwhelming way before the midrange deck has a chance to settle into a grindy game. Collected company is a grinding tool for decks like this, but I'd say humans doesn't really want to be playing a grindy game.
Also remember that while midrange decks in modern play maybe 6+ removal spells, they need to be jamming a sturdy threat on curve to be winning a game against decks like humans. If they are curving out with Bob or goyf, they'll be spending their mana in a way which opens them up to being blown out by a quick disruptive start from the humans deck. Also bear in mind that if the midrange player sits back on removal and tries to play the 1-for-1 game, they'll on average run out of interaction faster than the entirely-creatures deck will run out of threats.
On balance, I think gbx decks are a fine matchup. Very skill dependant but on paper, not scary at all.
I think the tougher matchups are ones like UW control or jeskai control/tempo which intend right from the start to just sit back and pick things off with removal and so have a different kind of game plan and probably more individual pieces of removal in the 75 to achieve this plan.
Just wanted to chime in and mention how well he knew his match ups. His post win write up on SCG gave a very insightful read on his tron opponent that was setting up ugin through Thalia 2.0 that sealed the game. The mulligan decisions are pretty insightful too.
I think the deck has legs personally. If you're a turn slower then other aggro decks nut hands but have upwards of 12 cards to fight combo (Thalia 1.0, freebooter, and meddling mage) you're in a good position. Despite how strong his main decklist was for combo, he still slogged through matchups that weren't great for him and crushed the tournament like purk said.
I do agree that T1-2 interaction into blood moon can be brutal for the deck. But that's basically a two of out if sideboards on Rxx decks usually, and you can tax it or meddling mage it.
For what it's worth, I agree with his assessment of coco in the deck. He's low enough to the ground that vial is just better.
With the printing of Kambul I began to wonder when the humans deck was going to get enough tacked on to the creatures to be an issue. What has historically been a safe tribe to stick crap like Thalia 1.0s ability on is kinda screwy with the lords. Considering how popular INN and SoI are, they may be getting other lord down the road because human tribal is part of the plane's theme. They better make sure they keep the deck in mind so we don't end up with just a better fish filled with 2-3 cmc lords and disrupting for days.
Otherwise, oldschool attrition-y MU's are probably one of the better bets. It can't value its way through jund removal/advantage, especially when it's not playing something like company. In retrospect, that's probably what made humans such a great meta-call: people not playing their BGx midrange decks.
That's an interesting hypothesis, could very well be true. Removal heavy decks can destroy that Humans deck, but if you're light on interaction their synergies quickly build to a crescendo.
I'd say the tough matchups are decks which run maindeck sweepers. Humans can (should) be able to (on average) brute-force its way through the couple of spot-removal spells a jund type deck would draw before the game was over. The hand disruption and meddling mage interactions are a strong game against jund and similar decks.
There will always be games where your gbx player draws six removal spells and one threat and just gets there, but in aggregate I believe humans has the edge in this matchup. Aether vial is also a huge step-up in terms of being able to quickly deploy that front-loaded disruption in an overwhelming way before the midrange deck has a chance to settle into a grindy game. Collected company is a grinding tool for decks like this, but I'd say humans doesn't really want to be playing a grindy game.
Also remember that while midrange decks in modern play maybe 6+ removal spells, they need to be jamming a sturdy threat on curve to be winning a game against decks like humans. If they are curving out with Bob or goyf, they'll be spending their mana in a way which opens them up to being blown out by a quick disruptive start from the humans deck. Also bear in mind that if the midrange player sits back on removal and tries to play the 1-for-1 game, they'll on average run out of interaction faster than the entirely-creatures deck will run out of threats.
On balance, I think gbx decks are a fine matchup. Very skill dependant but on paper, not scary at all.
I think the tougher matchups are ones like UW control or jeskai control/tempo which intend right from the start to just sit back and pick things off with removal and so have a different kind of game plan and probably more individual pieces of removal in the 75 to achieve this plan.
You're right, GBx seems even enough to be competitive. I should've been more specific; I was thinking of Jeskai Control or something like the Mardu Reveler I'm currently running. Humans are a dream match-up for those opponents. Kill the scarier creatures one-by-one and then finish the game off at your leisure. That type of deck isn't overly represented at the moment though. Humans very well could have legs.
For what it's worth, I have been playing a GWub Human Company list that has done very well for me the past 3 months. Although Kitesail Freebooter is just better in the deck, Sin Collector really preys on hands that are slightly removal light or weak to Humans. In the creature matchups, getting super early and scaling stronger pressure out immediately and finishing it off with some combination of Reflector Mage and Path to Exile is enough to make opponents vomit.
Not counting IDs with this deck, I was 30-4. My friend had a rough evening with it tonight at 2-2, which put him at 13-3 total with the deck (the previous loss being a scoop). This deck has also gotten me the highest percentage of 2-0 wins ever since other decks that I played that got bannings. I don't feel that this deck autoscoops at all to removal.dec. It's just much tougher to play around all of the removal that you can face.
Titanshift has a positive matchup vs. Humans. The way that Humans beats Titanshift is to have a Champion of the Parish large enough to withstand Anger of the Gods and then getting lethal with it before Titanshift does insane amounts of damage. If Titanshift keeps Champ and Lieutenant small enough and doesn't have a slow or poor hand, they usually win. I'd put the matchup at 60/40 at worst for Titanshift.
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Is this a real deck or just a flash in the pan that'll disappear quickly into tier 3? Can it adapt? What kind of meta shift would destroy it?
Check the post above. I haven't played Collins' deck. I could try it or have a friend try it, but I personally prefer Collected Company over Aether Vial. It is definitely very strong. The only 2 decks in which I've had a higher win percentage with, playing over 30 sanctioned matches with, has been Grishoalbrand (but has since went down to around 73%) and Eye of Ugin Eldrazi. I have played Modern since forever and at least tried every single strong Tier 1 or Tier 2 deck.
Humans is very strong. After losing at a bunch of PPTQs with Titanshift, I was nearly ready to switch to Humans. Luckily for me, I didn't switch, but honestly I'm pretty sure I would have gotten there with Humans too. Right now, I would say that the decks to play if Humans gets popular is Titanshift or Affinity (there are knockout cards vs. Affinity, but if they are not drawn, the matchup is bad for Humans). Grixis Shadow should beat this deck too. Aether Vial complicates things, but I always felt that I needed some Collected Companies to resolve to beat GDS.
It will certainly not fall to Tier 3. Not any time soon. I originally heard about Human Company making waves online - Magnus Lantto 5-0ing a bunch of Leagues with Humans. Since I was on other decks, I was hesitant to try it. Eventually I saw an FNM player run a budget version, then over the course of 2 weeks have it optimized (outside of Noble Hierarch, which took a bit longer). I was paired against him a lot in the next month, going 3-2. But our matches were the most stressful to me, mostly because my other matches were 2-0s. So I decided to test it at home. I noticed that CONTROL EXTRAORDINAIRE, Gabriel Nassif, a guy who I adored back in the Cruel Control of Standard days (he and Wafo-Tapa were my idols), was running WHAAAAT!!! Humans. That surprised me, so I watched some vids and I got attached to the deck.
I personally think that the deck is stronger than Knightfall, which is close to Tier 1 in my opinion. Humans may very well be Tier 1 or very close to it. Knightfall would be if you could control how often you get the Knight Retreat combo, but you can't. Personally I feel that these decks would do the best vs. it in this order.
1. Grixis Control
1.5 Titanshift
2. Jeskai Control
3. Junk Midrange
4. Jund Midrange
I actually think that Affinity is number 2 and Big Tron is certainly up there (in addition to E Tron when they All is Dust) because Affinity is just too fast. There are not many chances to get Izzet Staticaster or Orzhov Pontiff, depending on which you play, in time.
I think the main problem for decks is that the decks that overload on removal like Grixis Control just straight up fail vs. decks that don't care about that, like Titanshift.
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This is a very bad matchup for ET. Hoping for an All Is Dust isn't a match-winning strategy.
No, I know this. The Human Company list that I run is different from Collins' Mullen's list. It isn't a match winning strategy by a far stretch, but as an opponent, you have to be wary of the card. For some decks, Humans being one, it's tough not to go all-in somewhat vs. a deck like E Tron that has a 1 sided sweeper.
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I'm curious to see if this deck inspires midrange to make a resurgence.
Probably not as long as Titanshift and Storm are top decks in the format. Never mind that Eldrazi refuses to go away.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Jeskai and UW control.
That's an interesting hypothesis, could very well be true. Removal heavy decks can destroy that Humans deck, but if you're light on interaction their synergies quickly build to a crescendo.
I'd say the tough matchups are decks which run maindeck sweepers. Humans can (should) be able to (on average) brute-force its way through the couple of spot-removal spells a jund type deck would draw before the game was over. The hand disruption and meddling mage interactions are a strong game against jund and similar decks.
There will always be games where your gbx player draws six removal spells and one threat and just gets there, but in aggregate I believe humans has the edge in this matchup. Aether vial is also a huge step-up in terms of being able to quickly deploy that front-loaded disruption in an overwhelming way before the midrange deck has a chance to settle into a grindy game. Collected company is a grinding tool for decks like this, but I'd say humans doesn't really want to be playing a grindy game.
Also remember that while midrange decks in modern play maybe 6+ removal spells, they need to be jamming a sturdy threat on curve to be winning a game against decks like humans. If they are curving out with Bob or goyf, they'll be spending their mana in a way which opens them up to being blown out by a quick disruptive start from the humans deck. Also bear in mind that if the midrange player sits back on removal and tries to play the 1-for-1 game, they'll on average run out of interaction faster than the entirely-creatures deck will run out of threats.
On balance, I think gbx decks are a fine matchup. Very skill dependant but on paper, not scary at all.
I think the tougher matchups are ones like UW control or jeskai control/tempo which intend right from the start to just sit back and pick things off with removal and so have a different kind of game plan and probably more individual pieces of removal in the 75 to achieve this plan.
I think the deck has legs personally. If you're a turn slower then other aggro decks nut hands but have upwards of 12 cards to fight combo (Thalia 1.0, freebooter, and meddling mage) you're in a good position. Despite how strong his main decklist was for combo, he still slogged through matchups that weren't great for him and crushed the tournament like purk said.
I do agree that T1-2 interaction into blood moon can be brutal for the deck. But that's basically a two of out if sideboards on Rxx decks usually, and you can tax it or meddling mage it.
For what it's worth, I agree with his assessment of coco in the deck. He's low enough to the ground that vial is just better.
With the printing of Kambul I began to wonder when the humans deck was going to get enough tacked on to the creatures to be an issue. What has historically been a safe tribe to stick crap like Thalia 1.0s ability on is kinda screwy with the lords. Considering how popular INN and SoI are, they may be getting other lord down the road because human tribal is part of the plane's theme. They better make sure they keep the deck in mind so we don't end up with just a better fish filled with 2-3 cmc lords and disrupting for days.
You're right, GBx seems even enough to be competitive. I should've been more specific; I was thinking of Jeskai Control or something like the Mardu Reveler I'm currently running. Humans are a dream match-up for those opponents. Kill the scarier creatures one-by-one and then finish the game off at your leisure. That type of deck isn't overly represented at the moment though. Humans very well could have legs.
Not counting IDs with this deck, I was 30-4. My friend had a rough evening with it tonight at 2-2, which put him at 13-3 total with the deck (the previous loss being a scoop). This deck has also gotten me the highest percentage of 2-0 wins ever since other decks that I played that got bannings. I don't feel that this deck autoscoops at all to removal.dec. It's just much tougher to play around all of the removal that you can face.
Titanshift has a positive matchup vs. Humans. The way that Humans beats Titanshift is to have a Champion of the Parish large enough to withstand Anger of the Gods and then getting lethal with it before Titanshift does insane amounts of damage. If Titanshift keeps Champ and Lieutenant small enough and doesn't have a slow or poor hand, they usually win. I'd put the matchup at 60/40 at worst for Titanshift.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Is this a real deck or just a flash in the pan that'll disappear quickly into tier 3? Can it adapt? What kind of meta shift would destroy it?
Check the post above. I haven't played Collins' deck. I could try it or have a friend try it, but I personally prefer Collected Company over Aether Vial. It is definitely very strong. The only 2 decks in which I've had a higher win percentage with, playing over 30 sanctioned matches with, has been Grishoalbrand (but has since went down to around 73%) and Eye of Ugin Eldrazi. I have played Modern since forever and at least tried every single strong Tier 1 or Tier 2 deck.
Humans is very strong. After losing at a bunch of PPTQs with Titanshift, I was nearly ready to switch to Humans. Luckily for me, I didn't switch, but honestly I'm pretty sure I would have gotten there with Humans too. Right now, I would say that the decks to play if Humans gets popular is Titanshift or Affinity (there are knockout cards vs. Affinity, but if they are not drawn, the matchup is bad for Humans). Grixis Shadow should beat this deck too. Aether Vial complicates things, but I always felt that I needed some Collected Companies to resolve to beat GDS.
It will certainly not fall to Tier 3. Not any time soon. I originally heard about Human Company making waves online - Magnus Lantto 5-0ing a bunch of Leagues with Humans. Since I was on other decks, I was hesitant to try it. Eventually I saw an FNM player run a budget version, then over the course of 2 weeks have it optimized (outside of Noble Hierarch, which took a bit longer). I was paired against him a lot in the next month, going 3-2. But our matches were the most stressful to me, mostly because my other matches were 2-0s. So I decided to test it at home. I noticed that CONTROL EXTRAORDINAIRE, Gabriel Nassif, a guy who I adored back in the Cruel Control of Standard days (he and Wafo-Tapa were my idols), was running WHAAAAT!!! Humans. That surprised me, so I watched some vids and I got attached to the deck.
I personally think that the deck is stronger than Knightfall, which is close to Tier 1 in my opinion. Humans may very well be Tier 1 or very close to it. Knightfall would be if you could control how often you get the Knight Retreat combo, but you can't. Personally I feel that these decks would do the best vs. it in this order.
1. Grixis Control
1.5 Titanshift
2. Jeskai Control
3. Junk Midrange
4. Jund Midrange
I actually think that Affinity is number 2 and Big Tron is certainly up there (in addition to E Tron when they All is Dust) because Affinity is just too fast. There are not many chances to get Izzet Staticaster or Orzhov Pontiff, depending on which you play, in time.
I think the main problem for decks is that the decks that overload on removal like Grixis Control just straight up fail vs. decks that don't care about that, like Titanshift.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)This is a very bad matchup for ET. Hoping for an All Is Dust isn't a match-winning strategy.
No, I know this. The Human Company list that I run is different from Collins' Mullen's list. It isn't a match winning strategy by a far stretch, but as an opponent, you have to be wary of the card. For some decks, Humans being one, it's tough not to go all-in somewhat vs. a deck like E Tron that has a 1 sided sweeper.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)-
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My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
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