You can reduce the land count according to the turbo xerox rule if u include Preordain in a list.
Greetings
King
I know, but I cannot go to 16 lands in Counter-Cat (it is a 4c Delver deck with Nacatl) without running the playset GP which in return makes the good aggro match-up worse which I really do not want.
Though, for other Delver decks, which are currently running 18-21 lands (UWR and Grixis on the higher end) would be able to cut 1-2 lands. Than again, 17 lands is the min I would run in Modern, even IF you have 12+ cantrips in your deck.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
So the thinking is: There ist the argument that Preordain would help combo getting more consistent to get aggro in check while boosting combo just this little bit to help combo not take over. To prove this right or wrong we need to test combo decks (Storm/Ad Nauseam would most likely play Preordain over Sleight of Hand), but we also need to look into Jeskai Control and UW Control if it can boost their strength. Also there is an argument talking about Delver strategies wanting Preordain, but looking into this is optional.
I honestly don't know what I would cut from Delver to make room. Serum Visions works better for setting up Delver flips and Thought Scour does a better job accelerating out Tasigur/Angler. Most lists run the full 4 of each and are not looking to cut either. Gitaxian Probe is usually run as a 3 or 4-of in lists also running Young Pyromancer, but I don't know if YP lists would want to cut Probe for Preordain, because the upside for Probe (free casting cost, see if the coast is clear) outweighs a minor upgrade in selection. Lists not running YP may include Preordain, but those lists are usually more aligned with "grixis control" that runs a lower curve and 4 Delvers. Short answer: it probably won't affect Delver much.
Also, in addition to adding Dredge, Bant Eldrazi needs to be on that list. Both those decks are nightmare matchups for almost any URx Uxx deck. I do not feel Preordain does anything to make the matchup better in a statistically relevant way.
Since my main Delver deck is Counter-Cat I can only talk about that deck.
My current Cantrip set-up is: 4 Serum Visions, 1 Faithless Looting, 2 Sleight of Hands
I would basically change the set-up to the following: 4 Preordain, 3 Serum Visions, 1 Faithless Looting (making a cut else where).
The Looting my look odd, but it is basically a BS for the deck in the Mid to Lategame with Flashback.
Yes, Visions is better with Delver, but when your other creatures are Nacatl, Goyf and Mandrills and you want to find your MD silverbullets (like Simic/Boros Charm, Send to Sleep,...) Preordain is just way better at doing so.
So yeah, a Preordain would affect Counter Cat in a big way, since it would be especially the manabase more stable while being better at finding what you need.
I just want to add something: I had a ~55-45 match-up with Counter Cat vs Eldrazi in the Eldrazi Winter (played roughly 40 games vs them) since I was executing the tempo plan way better. Of course, it helps, when you have access to stuff like Send to Sleep and Deflecting Palm + Isochron Szepter ^^
I played a little bit with UR Midrange Delver and UR Prowess Delver (with Abbot back when he was spoilered). Both decks would like Preordain more than Visions and would probably run the full 8 cantrips (up to 12 if you run Probe). This way, you can go down to 16-17 lands without a real problem (especially since the UR Fastland exists now).
Greetings,
Kathal
I guess if you are running a nontraditional Delver list with Goyfs and other green cards, it's going to want different things than the standard Tier 2 Grixis Delver list. I don't think that represents where Delver is at right now since Grixis is much more popular and successful. But I could see it helping the green (or straight UR) versions, which are currently buried in tier 3.
But I think the point is Preordain is not going to work miracles and make any of the Delver decks Tier 1 or really increase its game against the slew of current Tier 1 decks by all that much.
We could add my new love as well, Suicide Bloo(of some iteration)!
I mean, this deck is real. It put up 3 copies in the GP Top 64! Preordain could literally help it. Plus I don't mind playing that at all.
Can't support U at all as simple as it is.
Yes, it might look great in that deck (finding relevant stuff) but both the colour restrictions (you cannot run a 5c Aggro deck without Dorks, trust me, I tried and failed horrible) and the anti deck synergy (Preordain is a tempo card which enables it's value usually the turn after it got played, while the deck is an aggro deck, which wants to have business all the time and not cantrip into cantrip into nothing (especially when you have to pay mana for it)).
So the thinking is: There ist the argument that Preordain would help combo getting more consistent to get aggro in check while boosting combo just this little bit to help combo not take over. To prove this right or wrong we need to test combo decks (Storm/Ad Nauseam would most likely play Preordain over Sleight of Hand), but we also need to look into Jeskai Control and UW Control if it can boost their strength. Also there is an argument talking about Delver strategies wanting Preordain, but looking into this is optional.
I honestly don't know what I would cut from Delver to make room. Serum Visions works better for setting up Delver flips and Thought Scour does a better job accelerating out Tasigur/Angler. Most lists run the full 4 of each and are not looking to cut either. Gitaxian Probe is usually run as a 3 or 4-of in lists also running Young Pyromancer, but I don't know if YP lists would want to cut Probe for Preordain, because the upside for Probe (free casting cost, see if the coast is clear) outweighs a minor upgrade in selection. Lists not running YP may include Preordain, but those lists are usually more aligned with "grixis control" that runs a lower curve and 4 Delvers. Short answer: it probably won't affect Delver much.
Also, in addition to adding Dredge, Bant Eldrazi needs to be on that list. Both those decks are nightmare matchups for almost any URx Uxx deck. I do not feel Preordain does anything to make the matchup better in a statistically relevant way.
Since my main Delver deck is Counter-Cat I can only talk about that deck.
My current Cantrip set-up is: 4 Serum Visions, 1 Faithless Looting, 2 Sleight of Hands
I would basically change the set-up to the following: 4 Preordain, 3 Serum Visions, 1 Faithless Looting (making a cut else where).
The Looting my look odd, but it is basically a BS for the deck in the Mid to Lategame with Flashback.
Yes, Visions is better with Delver, but when your other creatures are Nacatl, Goyf and Mandrills and you want to find your MD silverbullets (like Simic/Boros Charm, Send to Sleep,...) Preordain is just way better at doing so.
So yeah, a Preordain would affect Counter Cat in a big way, since it would be especially the manabase more stable while being better at finding what you need.
I just want to add something: I had a ~55-45 match-up with Counter Cat vs Eldrazi in the Eldrazi Winter (played roughly 40 games vs them) since I was executing the tempo plan way better. Of course, it helps, when you have access to stuff like Send to Sleep and Deflecting Palm + Isochron Szepter ^^
I played a little bit with UR Midrange Delver and UR Prowess Delver (with Abbot back when he was spoilered). Both decks would like Preordain more than Visions and would probably run the full 8 cantrips (up to 12 if you run Probe). This way, you can go down to 16-17 lands without a real problem (especially since the UR Fastland exists now).
Greetings,
Kathal
I guess if you are running a nontraditional Delver list with Goyfs and other green cards, it's going to want different things than the standard Tier 2 Grixis Delver list. I don't think that represents where Delver is at right now since Grixis is much more popular and successful. But I could see it helping the green (or straight UR) versions, which are currently buried in tier 3.
But I think the point is Preordain is not going to work miracles and make any of the Delver decks Tier 1 or really increase its game against the slew of current Tier 1 decks by all that much.
Expecting wonders from Preordain is false either way, since it is not that much better than Serum Vision. Ponder would be the calibre of cantrip Delver (and other decks) need to get better by a lot.
Also, the most traditional Delver deck (Canadian Tresh) is a RUG Delver deck with Mongoose, Goyf, Delver, Stifle, Wasteland, Daze and FoW. The most tempoy tempo deck in the whole game.
For Modern, the classic (and also most successful) Delver deck is RUG Delver, which has the highest amount of GP wins from any Delver deck (I think 3 overall?). Second place is UWR Delver, but that deck is basically dead after RTR, even though the Gifts SB plan was kinda funny
Nowadays Grixis is the "main" Delver deck but mainly because players like to play it more than other Delver variations even though I don't find it better than the other available Delver decks, especially RUG Delver and Counter-Cat.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Those decks were popular before Tasigur and Angler were printed. We can live in the past all we want, but those decks have not been successful in Modern for a very long time. Legacy Delver is completely irrelevant to Modern, unless we get to run Brainstorm and Force of Will.
So the thinking is: There ist the argument that Preordain would help combo getting more consistent to get aggro in check while boosting combo just this little bit to help combo not take over. To prove this right or wrong we need to test combo decks (Storm/Ad Nauseam would most likely play Preordain over Sleight of Hand), but we also need to look into Jeskai Control and UW Control if it can boost their strength. Also there is an argument talking about Delver strategies wanting Preordain, but looking into this is optional.
I honestly don't know what I would cut from Delver to make room. Serum Visions works better for setting up Delver flips and Thought Scour does a better job accelerating out Tasigur/Angler. Most lists run the full 4 of each and are not looking to cut either. Gitaxian Probe is usually run as a 3 or 4-of in lists also running Young Pyromancer, but I don't know if YP lists would want to cut Probe for Preordain, because the upside for Probe (free casting cost, see if the coast is clear) outweighs a minor upgrade in selection. Lists not running YP may include Preordain, but those lists are usually more aligned with "grixis control" that runs a lower curve and 4 Delvers. Short answer: it probably won't affect Delver much.
Also, in addition to adding Dredge, Bant Eldrazi needs to be on that list. Both those decks are nightmare matchups for almost any URx Uxx deck. I do not feel Preordain does anything to make the matchup better in a statistically relevant way.
Since my main Delver deck is Counter-Cat I can only talk about that deck.
My current Cantrip set-up is: 4 Serum Visions, 1 Faithless Looting, 2 Sleight of Hands
I would basically change the set-up to the following: 4 Preordain, 3 Serum Visions, 1 Faithless Looting (making a cut else where).
The Looting my look odd, but it is basically a BS for the deck in the Mid to Lategame with Flashback.
Yes, Visions is better with Delver, but when your other creatures are Nacatl, Goyf and Mandrills and you want to find your MD silverbullets (like Simic/Boros Charm, Send to Sleep,...) Preordain is just way better at doing so.
So yeah, a Preordain would affect Counter Cat in a big way, since it would be especially the manabase more stable while being better at finding what you need.
I just want to add something: I had a ~55-45 match-up with Counter Cat vs Eldrazi in the Eldrazi Winter (played roughly 40 games vs them) since I was executing the tempo plan way better. Of course, it helps, when you have access to stuff like Send to Sleep and Deflecting Palm + Isochron Szepter ^^
I played a little bit with UR Midrange Delver and UR Prowess Delver (with Abbot back when he was spoilered). Both decks would like Preordain more than Visions and would probably run the full 8 cantrips (up to 12 if you run Probe). This way, you can go down to 16-17 lands without a real problem (especially since the UR Fastland exists now).
Greetings,
Kathal
I guess if you are running a nontraditional Delver list with Goyfs and other green cards, it's going to want different things than the standard Tier 2 Grixis Delver list. I don't think that represents where Delver is at right now since Grixis is much more popular and successful. But I could see it helping the green (or straight UR) versions, which are currently buried in tier 3.
But I think the point is Preordain is not going to work miracles and make any of the Delver decks Tier 1 or really increase its game against the slew of current Tier 1 decks by all that much.
Grixis Delver is a solid Tier 2 right now. The biggest thing that differentiates solid Tier 2 decks from Tier 1 is popularity. Getting a powerful cantrip, which would be the MOST powerful cantrip in the format, off the banned list would skyrocket the popularity of any deck that could run it. For that reason alone I could easily see Delver in Tier 1 and staying there if Preordain were unbanned.
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Grixis Delver would only skyrocket to Tier 1 if we got Brainstorm. I'm not even positive I would want Preordain at all in a YP build of Grixis Delver, as mentioned in the reasons above. Preordain is actually worse than Thought Scour in a deck running Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command,and delve creatures.
Grixis Delver would only skyrocket to Tier 1 if we got Brainstorm. I'm not even positive I would want Preordain at all in a YP build of Grixis Delver, as mentioned in the reasons above. Preordain is actually worse than Thought Scour in a deck running Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command,and delve creatures.
If you play Serum Visions, and you do, you totally want Preordain, as it's a strict upgrade.
Unless you want to flip Delver, then it's actually worse. And in finding specific sideboard cards in the first 3 turns, it's about the same. Let's look at a simplified example using Stony Silence and both Serum Visions and Preordain and see how much "strictly better" Preordain is in a fast format:
Scenario Serum Visions
T1: Serum Visions, draw something, scry Stony Silence on top.
T2: Draw and play Stony Silence.
T1: something
T2: Serum Visions, draw something, scry Stony Silence to top.
T3: Draw and play Stony Silence.
Scenario Preordain
T1: Preordain, find Stony Silence as second card. Can either draw now, or scry to top for next turn. Can't be played this turn regardless. Vulnerable to Thoughtseize effects if in hand.
T2: Play Stony Silence, either from hand or after drawing.
T1: something
T2: Preordain, draw Stony Silence. Can't be played this turn anyway. Vulnerable to Thoughtseize effects.
T3: Play Stony Silence.
In all scenarios, the turn it lands does not change.
If you want to run more than 4 Cantrips (which is quite common btw) than you want Visions in addition to Prerodain.
Greetings,
Kathal
This is possible for some decks. It's very unlikely for Delver drcks; especially Grixis Delver, which is currently the most popular and most successful variant.
Grixis Delver would only skyrocket to Tier 1 if we got Brainstorm. I'm not even positive I would want Preordain at all in a YP build of Grixis Delver, as mentioned in the reasons above. Preordain is actually worse than Thought Scour in a deck running Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command,and delve creatures.
If you play Serum Visions, and you do, you totally want Preordain, as it's a strict upgrade.
Unless you want to flip Delver, then it's actually worse.
Preordain is exactly as good at flipping Delver as Serum Visions; you see the same number of cards. If at least one is an Instant or Sorcery, you leave it on top and get the transformation; if neither are, you put them both on the bottom and get a random card. The only difference is whether it's put on top or second from the top.
Granted, it can be less convenient to have Preordain, because if you have a card you want to scry to the bottom and an Instant/Sorcery, then you have to draw the unwanted card in order to have the Instant/Sorcery transform the Delver. But it is no worse at the actual act of transforming the Delver of Secrets.
Additionally, in every instance that does not involve having an un-transformed Delver in play (which will be most cases), Preordain is better. And even the above lack of "convenience" requires the specific situation of you having a card you'd prefer to put on the bottom of the library in conjunction with an Instant/Sorcery. If neither card is an Instant/Sorcery, or only one is an Instant/Sorcery and you're interesting in drawing the non-Instant/Sorcery, Serum Visions has no advantage.
If you want evidence that Delver decks would prefer Preordain, look at Delver Pauper decks. Both cards are legal, but Preordain is always played over Serum Visions. And there isn't any critical difference between the formats that would cause a change (as is the case for Brainstorm, which is eschewed in Pauper due to lack of fetchlands), so if Preordain is better there in Delver decks, it should be better here in Delver decks.
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Warning for Modern banlist discussion outside of the official thread -ktkenshinx-
If you want to focus four paragraphs on one line without addressing the rest of the point, that's fine. Focusing specifically on Delver flipping, Serum "digs" a hypothetical 4 cards deep (1 draw, 2 possible bottom scrys 1 unknown random card), where Preordain can only "dig" 3 (2 known scrys, 1 unknown draw). While both give 3 possible opportunities to flip (2 known 1 unknown), the card in-hand can give a small (but measurable) addition in information about the unknown card (which could influence fetching/shuffling). So with that in mind, Serum is better at specifically making Delver flip.
That being said, it's hardly a deal breaker, I just argue that because if we're going to nit pick, I'll gladly nit pick Preordain might be better overall for the deck, and if unbanned, I'd probably run some number of them. But I also realize that whatever minuscule advantage that is gained is mostly irrelevant in the kinds of matches that currently define Modern (as demonstrated in the above examples).
Focusing specifically on Delver flipping, Serum "digs" a hypothetical 4 cards deep (1 draw, 2 possible bottom scrys 1 unknown random card), where Preordain can only "dig" 3 (2 known scrys, 1 unknown draw). While both give 3 possible opportunities to flip (2 known 1 unknown), the card in-hand can give a small (but measurable) addition in information about the unknown card (which could influence fetching/shuffling). So with that in mind, Serum is better at specifically making Delver flip.
Why did you add an unknown random card to the effect of serum visions but not to preordain? If you scry two and draw, or if you draw and scry 2, you end up with an unknown card on top of the library either way.
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Focusing specifically on Delver flipping, Serum "digs" a hypothetical 4 cards deep (1 draw, 2 possible bottom scrys 1 unknown random card), where Preordain can only "dig" 3 (2 known scrys, 1 unknown draw). While both give 3 possible opportunities to flip (2 known 1 unknown), the card in-hand can give a small (but measurable) addition in information about the unknown card (which could influence fetching/shuffling). So with that in mind, Serum is better at specifically making Delver flip.
Why did you add an unknown random card to the effect of serum visions but not to preordain? If you scry two and draw, or if you draw and scry 2, you end up with an unknown card on top of the library either way.
I am mistaken, it's the same depth. In Serum Visions, if you draw, scry bottom, scry bottom, you're going to draw your 4th card from the top next turn. In Preordain, if you scry bottom, scry bottom, you draw a random card and still draw the 4th card from the top on the next turn. It's been a long week. ^_^;; That was never my major point though, the main point was that whatever advantage gained by preordain is extremely minimal and unbanning it is not going to do all that much to help these decks.
Grixis Delver would only skyrocket to Tier 1 if we got Brainstorm. I'm not even positive I would want Preordain at all in a YP build of Grixis Delver, as mentioned in the reasons above. Preordain is actually worse than Thought Scour in a deck running Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command,and delve creatures.
If you play Serum Visions, and you do, you totally want Preordain, as it's a strict upgrade.
Unless you want to flip Delver, then it's actually worse. And in finding specific sideboard cards in the first 3 turns, it's about the same. Let's look at a simplified example using Stony Silence and both Serum Visions and Preordain and see how much "strictly better" Preordain is in a fast format:
Scenario Serum Visions
T1: Serum Visions, draw something, scry Stony Silence on top.
T2: Draw and play Stony Silence.
T1: something
T2: Serum Visions, draw something, scry Stony Silence to top.
T3: Draw and play Stony Silence.
Scenario Preordain
T1: Preordain, find Stony Silence as second card. Can either draw now, or scry to top for next turn. Can't be played this turn regardless. Vulnerable to Thoughtseize effects if in hand.
T2: Play Stony Silence, either from hand or after drawing.
T1: something
T2: Preordain, draw Stony Silence. Can't be played this turn anyway. Vulnerable to Thoughtseize effects.
T3: Play Stony Silence.
In all scenarios, the turn it lands does not change.
If you want to run more than 4 Cantrips (which is quite common btw) than you want Visions in addition to Prerodain.
Greetings,
Kathal
This is possible for some decks. It's very unlikely for Delver drcks; especially Grixis Delver, which is currently the most popular and most successful variant.
Preordain would be a instant include in Grixis Delver, digs just as deep has the added benefit of letting you potentially draw and cast your removal now instead of next turn which could be the difference between maintaining board parity or being run over by your next untap step.
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Warning for Modern banlist discussion outside of the official thread -ktkenshinx-
Path to Exile is really good against Eldrazi and Dredge. White has the best sideboard cards. Tron is basically a green deck anyway, so the splash color is mostly used for sideboard cards.
I tried Tom Ross's 75 of GW Tron from his recent Open win. I feel like the White splash is just better right now for the reasons that were mentioned. Dredge is hated on by 2 Relic of Progenitus in the main and 2 Rest in Peace and Ravenous Trap in the side. Path to Exile is actually good against Infect when paired with Blessed Alliance and Warping Wail. I went 4-0-1 at FNM, beating Junk Delirium, Bring to Light, UB Control, and Hatebears, while IDing to UWR Spell Queller. Our FNM was smaller because we went from Free FNMs to $5, but it still was 5 rounds.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Grixis delver would play preordain over visions. Visions is better at flipping delver, but a huge problem with delver is that it "draws the wrongoing half of the deck," meaning ito needs a burn spell but draws a counterspell and so on, and preordain would solve that. I don't know if that would make delver tier 1 though, especially with dredge and bant eldrazi in the metagame.
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Grixis delver would play preordain over visions. Visions is better at flipping delver, but a huge problem with delver is that it "draws the wrongoing half of the deck," meaning ito needs a burn spell but draws a counterspell and so on, and preordain would solve that. I don't know if that would make delver tier 1 though, especially with dredge and bant eldrazi in the metagame.
that's the biggest problem I had with delver decks when playing it, sometimes you just draw the wrong half of the deck. Preordain would be great for that situation
Delver seems like it would have a hard time with a lot of the tier one decks right now. my buddy and I were discussing this last night
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Reminder: you are not allowed to discuss banned cards in this thread. This thread is only for discussing the current metagame, not for discussing banlist testing, the hypothetical impact of a banned card, or reasons that card should be unbanned. The forum rules are very clear on this point.
Regardless of how many times you participated in the Preordain conversation in the past few pages, you only received a single warning/infraction for your posts. Please take that conversation elsewhere. In addition to the banlist thread, staff have opened up a general "State of Modern" thread where you can talk about various topics together. Either of those threads are appropriate places to talk about Preordain.
Carry on with the metagame discussion, but no more (un)banning talk!
I was wondering if we could get a discussion going not necessarily about the power level of dredge, but rather the constraints that prevent decks from side-boarding or main-boarding effectively against it. Basically, I'd like for us to talk about what makes it different from other decks.
However, it is considered non-viable to effectively use these cards. What are the meta-game constraints that prevent this from being so? Intuitively, it seems as if conditions like this have existed before, with cards like creeping corrosion, stony silence and ancient grudge being largely irrelevant except against Affinity. Similarly fulminator mage, avalanche riders, non-hatebears ghost quarters and sowing salt are mainly for Tron. As a reminder, graveyard hate isn't useless, it hits a fair few cards that are relevant to the metagame (Tarmogoyf, random shenanigans like Knight of the Reliquary). It's not amazing, but its generalized usefulness is about on par with that of other targeted hate cards.
Mainboard:
I would argue that the primary reason that the current meta, especially the online meta is weak to dredge is that it does not sufficiently answer dredge in the mainboard for Game 1, when Dredge's win rate is sky-high. For example: Scavenging Ooze and Anger of the Gods are fantastic answers to Dredge. Indeed: manadork -> scooze + remove dredger on t2 almost certainly wins Jund/Junk/Hatebears/Knightfall the match. Alternatively, Anger cast at any point when multiple amalgams or ghasts are on board will almost certainly win the game. If the dredge player declines to recur many creatures, then the deck's clock is quite slow; one tarmogoyf is just as strong as a bloodghast and a prized amalgalm combined.
Why then, is this not happening? This is a little more unclear. I have several theories:
1. The metagame forces players not to adopt answers in the mainboard. Scooze is insufficient against the meta because of Infect. We need Tarmogoyf's fat butt in order to win. Anger of the gods is not necessarily relevant against other midrange decks like eldrazi and junk.
2. Aggro decks are very dominant, so decks with later fundamental turns, like RG titan and Jund, and may have a good matchup against dredge, are not viable enough to sufficiently counter the deck. Dredge is simply the best anti-aggro deck, which makes it the best deck.
3. Players have simply not adapted their mainboards as of yet. There are combinations of cards that are sufficient answers to both dredge and the rest of the metagame. E.G. Some variant of collected company can combine answers in scavenging ooze, spellskite, etc. in a profitable manner. Some variant of Jund with a different balance of cards can effectively neutralize much of the aggro meta, etc.
I disagree with you that cards like Rest In Peace, Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, Ravenous Trap, etc. are not viable answers to them. It's the same as something like Crumble to Dust or Stony Silence, where it's boarded specifically for one deck and is very good against them. Dredge boards some number of cards like Nature's Claim, but it's difficult to get access to them because you have to draw into them with no filter as opposed to dredging into them like they would otherwise do with their threats/answers. I've seen a lot of games of dredge where they just fold to early answers like Rest In Peace.
People could board in a lot of different answers, they're just lazy about doing it. Surgical and Relic are both generic answers that anyone can play, but they don't see the deck being problematic enough. It's really not any different than Crumble or Stony Silence, you board it specifically for the one matchup and hope that it does its job. It's very similar to Stony Silence in a lot of ways because it's an early answer that you want to come down before they get rolling. Just to formally state it, most of the cards I'd play against dredge are bad in other matchups and don't really do much of anything, I'm certainly not boarding any of them against Tarmogoyf or Snapcaster. I can perhaps board some in against Abzan CoCo if I think they're playing the combo game against me, but the graveyard hate is largely for this matchup.
Modern is always going to be a format where you need to budget your sideboard correctly. If you don't want to board for certain matchups, you accept the consequences of that. Dredge is meant to be a deck good against aggro because it plays sticky creatures that recur themselves. It should be throwing enough things under the bus to run an opponent out of resources. Where it's supposed to struggle is against combo decks or decks that go over the top on them. A deck like Storm should be a bad matchup because they have very few ways to interact with them, especially mainboard. The problem is people just keep running decks that lose to Conflagrate against them and thinking it's okay.
is anyone else seeing UR breach lists around? they're built similarly to the UR twin lists of old, just with 4 through the breach and 4 Emrakul instead
is anyone else seeing UR breach lists around? they're built similarly to the UR twin lists of old, just with 4 through the breach and 4 Emrakul instead
my buddy are having success with the list
Isn't that just worse than kiki/exarch though? breach and kiki same cmc but exarch is a card where emrakul is not? Most TTB lists I've seen are RG valakut or RBx for goryo's.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
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I know, but I cannot go to 16 lands in Counter-Cat (it is a 4c Delver deck with Nacatl) without running the playset GP which in return makes the good aggro match-up worse which I really do not want.
Though, for other Delver decks, which are currently running 18-21 lands (UWR and Grixis on the higher end) would be able to cut 1-2 lands. Than again, 17 lands is the min I would run in Modern, even IF you have 12+ cantrips in your deck.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I guess if you are running a nontraditional Delver list with Goyfs and other green cards, it's going to want different things than the standard Tier 2 Grixis Delver list. I don't think that represents where Delver is at right now since Grixis is much more popular and successful. But I could see it helping the green (or straight UR) versions, which are currently buried in tier 3.
But I think the point is Preordain is not going to work miracles and make any of the Delver decks Tier 1 or really increase its game against the slew of current Tier 1 decks by all that much.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Mixed it up with Zooicide
Yeah, that deck definitely wants Preordain.
Expecting wonders from Preordain is false either way, since it is not that much better than Serum Vision. Ponder would be the calibre of cantrip Delver (and other decks) need to get better by a lot.
Also, the most traditional Delver deck (Canadian Tresh) is a RUG Delver deck with Mongoose, Goyf, Delver, Stifle, Wasteland, Daze and FoW. The most tempoy tempo deck in the whole game.
For Modern, the classic (and also most successful) Delver deck is RUG Delver, which has the highest amount of GP wins from any Delver deck (I think 3 overall?). Second place is UWR Delver, but that deck is basically dead after RTR, even though the Gifts SB plan was kinda funny
Nowadays Grixis is the "main" Delver deck but mainly because players like to play it more than other Delver variations even though I don't find it better than the other available Delver decks, especially RUG Delver and Counter-Cat.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Unless you want to flip Delver, then it's actually worse. And in finding specific sideboard cards in the first 3 turns, it's about the same. Let's look at a simplified example using Stony Silence and both Serum Visions and Preordain and see how much "strictly better" Preordain is in a fast format:
Scenario Serum Visions
T1: Serum Visions, draw something, scry Stony Silence on top.
T2: Draw and play Stony Silence.
T1: something
T2: Serum Visions, draw something, scry Stony Silence to top.
T3: Draw and play Stony Silence.
Scenario Preordain
T1: Preordain, find Stony Silence as second card. Can either draw now, or scry to top for next turn. Can't be played this turn regardless. Vulnerable to Thoughtseize effects if in hand.
T2: Play Stony Silence, either from hand or after drawing.
T1: something
T2: Preordain, draw Stony Silence. Can't be played this turn anyway. Vulnerable to Thoughtseize effects.
T3: Play Stony Silence.
In all scenarios, the turn it lands does not change.
This is possible for some decks. It's very unlikely for Delver drcks; especially Grixis Delver, which is currently the most popular and most successful variant.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Granted, it can be less convenient to have Preordain, because if you have a card you want to scry to the bottom and an Instant/Sorcery, then you have to draw the unwanted card in order to have the Instant/Sorcery transform the Delver. But it is no worse at the actual act of transforming the Delver of Secrets.
Additionally, in every instance that does not involve having an un-transformed Delver in play (which will be most cases), Preordain is better. And even the above lack of "convenience" requires the specific situation of you having a card you'd prefer to put on the bottom of the library in conjunction with an Instant/Sorcery. If neither card is an Instant/Sorcery, or only one is an Instant/Sorcery and you're interesting in drawing the non-Instant/Sorcery, Serum Visions has no advantage.
If you want evidence that Delver decks would prefer Preordain, look at Delver Pauper decks. Both cards are legal, but Preordain is always played over Serum Visions. And there isn't any critical difference between the formats that would cause a change (as is the case for Brainstorm, which is eschewed in Pauper due to lack of fetchlands), so if Preordain is better there in Delver decks, it should be better here in Delver decks.
That being said, it's hardly a deal breaker, I just argue that because if we're going to nit pick, I'll gladly nit pick Preordain might be better overall for the deck, and if unbanned, I'd probably run some number of them. But I also realize that whatever minuscule advantage that is gained is mostly irrelevant in the kinds of matches that currently define Modern (as demonstrated in the above examples).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Why did you add an unknown random card to the effect of serum visions but not to preordain? If you scry two and draw, or if you draw and scry 2, you end up with an unknown card on top of the library either way.
I am mistaken, it's the same depth. In Serum Visions, if you draw, scry bottom, scry bottom, you're going to draw your 4th card from the top next turn. In Preordain, if you scry bottom, scry bottom, you draw a random card and still draw the 4th card from the top on the next turn. It's been a long week. ^_^;; That was never my major point though, the main point was that whatever advantage gained by preordain is extremely minimal and unbanning it is not going to do all that much to help these decks.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Preordain would be a instant include in Grixis Delver, digs just as deep has the added benefit of letting you potentially draw and cast your removal now instead of next turn which could be the difference between maintaining board parity or being run over by your next untap step.
maybe I'm missing the reason
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
In addition to what others said, white also gives you Blessed Alliance which is fantastic against infect
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)that's the biggest problem I had with delver decks when playing it, sometimes you just draw the wrong half of the deck. Preordain would be great for that situation
Delver seems like it would have a hard time with a lot of the tier one decks right now. my buddy and I were discussing this last night
Regardless of how many times you participated in the Preordain conversation in the past few pages, you only received a single warning/infraction for your posts. Please take that conversation elsewhere. In addition to the banlist thread, staff have opened up a general "State of Modern" thread where you can talk about various topics together. Either of those threads are appropriate places to talk about Preordain.
Carry on with the metagame discussion, but no more (un)banning talk!
Sideboard:
Dredge can be effectively hated out by several sideboard options: Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Leyline of the Void, surgical extraction, even Yixlid Jailer.
However, it is considered non-viable to effectively use these cards. What are the meta-game constraints that prevent this from being so? Intuitively, it seems as if conditions like this have existed before, with cards like creeping corrosion, stony silence and ancient grudge being largely irrelevant except against Affinity. Similarly fulminator mage, avalanche riders, non-hatebears ghost quarters and sowing salt are mainly for Tron. As a reminder, graveyard hate isn't useless, it hits a fair few cards that are relevant to the metagame (Tarmogoyf, random shenanigans like Knight of the Reliquary). It's not amazing, but its generalized usefulness is about on par with that of other targeted hate cards.
Mainboard:
I would argue that the primary reason that the current meta, especially the online meta is weak to dredge is that it does not sufficiently answer dredge in the mainboard for Game 1, when Dredge's win rate is sky-high. For example: Scavenging Ooze and Anger of the Gods are fantastic answers to Dredge. Indeed: manadork -> scooze + remove dredger on t2 almost certainly wins Jund/Junk/Hatebears/Knightfall the match. Alternatively, Anger cast at any point when multiple amalgams or ghasts are on board will almost certainly win the game. If the dredge player declines to recur many creatures, then the deck's clock is quite slow; one tarmogoyf is just as strong as a bloodghast and a prized amalgalm combined.
Why then, is this not happening? This is a little more unclear. I have several theories:
1. The metagame forces players not to adopt answers in the mainboard. Scooze is insufficient against the meta because of Infect. We need Tarmogoyf's fat butt in order to win. Anger of the gods is not necessarily relevant against other midrange decks like eldrazi and junk.
2. Aggro decks are very dominant, so decks with later fundamental turns, like RG titan and Jund, and may have a good matchup against dredge, are not viable enough to sufficiently counter the deck. Dredge is simply the best anti-aggro deck, which makes it the best deck.
3. Players have simply not adapted their mainboards as of yet. There are combinations of cards that are sufficient answers to both dredge and the rest of the metagame. E.G. Some variant of collected company can combine answers in scavenging ooze, spellskite, etc. in a profitable manner. Some variant of Jund with a different balance of cards can effectively neutralize much of the aggro meta, etc.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
People could board in a lot of different answers, they're just lazy about doing it. Surgical and Relic are both generic answers that anyone can play, but they don't see the deck being problematic enough. It's really not any different than Crumble or Stony Silence, you board it specifically for the one matchup and hope that it does its job. It's very similar to Stony Silence in a lot of ways because it's an early answer that you want to come down before they get rolling. Just to formally state it, most of the cards I'd play against dredge are bad in other matchups and don't really do much of anything, I'm certainly not boarding any of them against Tarmogoyf or Snapcaster. I can perhaps board some in against Abzan CoCo if I think they're playing the combo game against me, but the graveyard hate is largely for this matchup.
Modern is always going to be a format where you need to budget your sideboard correctly. If you don't want to board for certain matchups, you accept the consequences of that. Dredge is meant to be a deck good against aggro because it plays sticky creatures that recur themselves. It should be throwing enough things under the bus to run an opponent out of resources. Where it's supposed to struggle is against combo decks or decks that go over the top on them. A deck like Storm should be a bad matchup because they have very few ways to interact with them, especially mainboard. The problem is people just keep running decks that lose to Conflagrate against them and thinking it's okay.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
my buddy are having success with the list
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG