@ktkenshinx
Random question, since in your list UR Twin and RUG Twin are listed separately, will they be having separate premiers?
In practice, it's one of those things that makes more sense for them to be discussed together. Like UWR Kiki Control and UWR Control. We could split the threads, but I think that would just create two discussions with fewer overall participants.
I still think that All-In Twin should be split from UR/RUG Twin.
@ktkenshinx
Random question, since in your list UR Twin and RUG Twin are listed separately, will they be having separate premiers?
In practice, it's one of those things that makes more sense for them to be discussed together. Like UWR Kiki Control and UWR Control. We could split the threads, but I think that would just create two discussions with fewer overall participants.
I still think that All-In Twin should be split from UR/RUG Twin.
I agree that splitting pure combo Twin from Tempo Twin is probably a good call.
...Anyone still play pure combo Twin? It's basically disappeared from MTGO.
I agree that splitting pure combo Twin from Tempo Twin is probably a good call.
...Anyone still play pure combo Twin? It's basically disappeared from MTGO.
Meh, it just seems like such an annoying and nuanced distinction to enforce in the threads. It also seems like a situation where most people would just be in the UR Tempo/RUG Twin thread with a bunch of confused people in the UR Combo Twin version. I'm totally fine with separating them for classification purposes to figure out the metagame, but it just doesn't seem all that productive for forum purposes.
Meh, it just seems like such an annoying and nuanced distinction to enforce in the threads. It also seems like a situation where most people would just be in the UR Tempo/RUG Twin thread with a bunch of confused people in the UR Combo Twin version. I'm totally fine with separating them for classification purposes to figure out the metagame, but it just doesn't seem all that productive for forum purposes.
Would merging the various URx Delver primers be a possibility in the future? All of them run the same core of delver, snapcaster, counters, burn, and from what I've seen in various decklists the splashes only dictate the flex slots in the normal lists. I play UWR delver, but I've found myself routinely visiting the UR, URB, and URG primers as well because most of the discussion is relevant to all 4 versions. This is especially relevant with Monastry Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise being tested.
Now, I have no clue whether the lone guy on Ascendancy Storm ever beat any of the other 3-1's with hate, but if s/he did...
I fear this will become the typical post-KTK Daily. RG Tron, Living End, Ad Nauseam, and BGx Midrange will pop their heads in more often than this, but I suspect Bogles/Merfolk/GW Hatebears will fall off the map and all the anti-Ascendancy hate will remain and not entirely work.
(Oh yeah, there's also a Burn deck with 4 Treasure Cruise. The Draw 3 in Aggro Decks days begin.)
I suspect the MTGO Modern meta will warp around Ascendancy Storm, possibly to the point that Ascendancy Storm hoses non-Burn aggro harder than Thopter-Sword ever could.
Now, I have no clue whether the lone guy on Ascendancy Storm ever beat any of the other 3-1's with hate, but if s/he did...
I fear this will become the typical post-KTK Daily. RG Tron, Living End, Ad Nauseam, and BGx Midrange will pop their heads in more often than this, but I suspect Bogles/Merfolk/GW Hatebears will fall off the map and all the anti-Ascendancy hate will remain and not entirely work.
(Oh yeah, there's also a Burn deck with 4 Treasure Cruise. The Draw 3 in Aggro Decks days begin.)
I suspect the MTGO Modern meta will warp around Ascendancy Storm, possibly to the point that Ascendancy Storm hoses non-Burn aggro harder than Thopter-Sword ever could.
I'm not so sure it will but only time will tell. How many results do we have now I know that there where a couple top 8s in the first few days after release, but I haven't heard too much more after that. Is anyone collecting the results in a concise manner?
I feel like Ascendancy Storm is over-hyped. It will push other linear decks since it gold fishes faster than they do but it is softer to disruption than they are. I believe it is unhealthy for the meta since aggro is much worse with it in the format and it pushes the format to tempo and maybe control. I think the real winner of post Khan's modern is probably Delver cruise decks.
If the meta gets pushed towards Control/Tempo decks, that seems like a good spot for an aggro deck to be in. IMO, if this does happen it could just be a case like in Legacy where a deck like Goblins has to just hope it doesn't have to play that Tendrils deck round 1.
If the meta gets pushed towards Control/Tempo decks, that seems like a good spot for an aggro deck to be in. IMO, if this does happen it could just be a case like in Legacy where a deck like Goblins has to just hope it doesn't have to play that Tendrils deck round 1.
The interesting thing about JA Storm is that its best police deck is an aggro deck: Burn. That has historically not been the case of other Modern combo decks, and it is one reason that aggro has been so absent from the format. Burn, however, is easily the best game 1 deck against JA Storm in the format, and one of the top 3 best decks in games 2-3. Between their removal, their speedy clock that doesn't allow for recovery, and those maindecked Eidolons, the deck is just very strong against JA Storm. Add to that its other strong matches (Burn was tier 1 BEFORE JA Storm hit the scene), and you have an aggro deck that is likely to endure alongside Affinity for at least a few months.
The big loser in all of this is hard control. UWR Control decks already had a rough time against Affinity and BGx Midrange, but now has to deal with Burn (it's here to stay) and JA Storm (super resilient to clockless control). That doesn't mean blue is dead. Delver, UWR Midrange, and Twin strategies all remain very viable. Indeed, UR Delver becomes a lot stronger, as you suggested in your post. That's both because of the metagame context and also because of new tools like Cruise and maybe Swiftspear.
Meh, it just seems like such an annoying and nuanced distinction to enforce in the threads. It also seems like a situation where most people would just be in the UR Tempo/RUG Twin thread with a bunch of confused people in the UR Combo Twin version. I'm totally fine with separating them for classification purposes to figure out the metagame, but it just doesn't seem all that productive for forum purposes.
Would merging the various URx Delver primers be a possibility in the future? All of them run the same core of delver, snapcaster, counters, burn, and from what I've seen in various decklists the splashes only dictate the flex slots in the normal lists. I play UWR delver, but I've found myself routinely visiting the UR, URB, and URG primers as well because most of the discussion is relevant to all 4 versions. This is especially relevant with Monastry Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise being tested.
Please no. I worked hard to get WUR Delver to get attention. It would stop being as special without its own thread. Besides, if that happened decks like Grixis Delver that don't get results would be grouped with decks like UR Delver that do. Grixis and WUR Twin have separate threads from UR/RUG Twin. Junk, BUG, and Rock have separate threads from Jund. The Delver decks should remain separate.
Meh, it just seems like such an annoying and nuanced distinction to enforce in the threads. It also seems like a situation where most people would just be in the UR Tempo/RUG Twin thread with a bunch of confused people in the UR Combo Twin version. I'm totally fine with separating them for classification purposes to figure out the metagame, but it just doesn't seem all that productive for forum purposes.
Would merging the various URx Delver primers be a possibility in the future? All of them run the same core of delver, snapcaster, counters, burn, and from what I've seen in various decklists the splashes only dictate the flex slots in the normal lists. I play UWR delver, but I've found myself routinely visiting the UR, URB, and URG primers as well because most of the discussion is relevant to all 4 versions. This is especially relevant with Monastry Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise being tested.
Please no. I worked hard to get WUR Delver to get attention. It would stop being as special without its own thread. Besides, if that happened decks like Grixis Delver that don't get results would be grouped with decks like UR Delver that do. Grixis and WUR Twin have separate threads from UR/RUG Twin. Junk, BUG, and Rock have separate threads from Jund. The Delver decks should remain separate.
Agree.
As a UR player a thread with all the versions would become too diluted between people arguing to cut Bob for TC, or how many Helix and Boros charm play, or if tarmo is always good with delve. If i do care about splash i visit those threads and maybe post a question to see different opinion, but merge the threads is just useless.
- L
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"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Time for a metagame check in! Since KTK got legalized, the metagame has had some huge changes from the pre-KTK world. Burn and UR Delver are way up. BGx Midrange is way down. A number of decks in the middle have fluctuated as a result. Here are the current top 10 most-played decks on MTGO and in paper. I'll give both their frequencies in the pat few weeks, and their frequencies in the past few months.
Paper actually looks a lot healthier than MTGO right now, with even Burn and UR Delver not exceeding Affinity's share from the summer. MTGO, however, looks really ugly, with that awful Burn share and the virtual disappearance of BGx Midrange. Cost plays a HUGE factor in this (Burn is the cheapest tier 1 deck by a substantial amount), but so do deck and metagame factors.
I have added a new tab to the spreadsheet: "Metagame - Post KTK". It is the third tab of the spreadsheet (I'm having trouble directly linking to single sheets in a google spreadsheet, so you have to go there manually).
This tab tracks JUST the Post KTK results for online and paper events. Hopefully it will help people get a sense as to the differences in the metagames, and how that can inform discussion.
wat. does no one play twin anymore? what happened in the last few months! haven't been keeping up with developments.
With the rise of Delver and Burn Twin doesnt have the match ups it once did. BGx decks are down also. RWU control is not even on the list. All because of a couple cards.
wat. does no one play twin anymore? what happened in the last few months! haven't been keeping up with developments.
With the rise of Delver and Burn Twin doesnt have the match ups it once did. BGx decks are down also. RWU control is not even on the list. All because of a couple cards.
Why isn't WUR doing well? Burn is becoming more creature-based and WUR still has Helix+Snapcaster+Removal. And WUR is also still the favorite against Delver, especially if it is running Remand or Dig Through Time to balance out Delver having Treasure Cruise. And Delver cutting interaction and a decrease in BGx can only be good for WUR. I just don't see a logical reason for why it isn't winning.
wat. does no one play twin anymore? what happened in the last few months! haven't been keeping up with developments.
With the rise of Delver and Burn Twin doesnt have the match ups it once did. BGx decks are down also. RWU control is not even on the list. All because of a couple cards.
makes sense. after playing for the first time in a long while tonight, and the first time since khans, i can see why the meta has shifted the way it has. tempo twin gets out tempo-ed by actual tempo decks (delver) and tempo decks are now resilient enough to fight control match ups. time to break out them delvers.. though i don't have treasure cruises, young pyros, or swiftspears. haha
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
wat. does no one play twin anymore? what happened in the last few months! haven't been keeping up with developments.
With the rise of Delver and Burn Twin doesnt have the match ups it once did. BGx decks are down also. RWU control is not even on the list. All because of a couple cards.
Why isn't WUR doing well? Burn is becoming more creature-based and WUR still has Helix+Snapcaster+Removal. And WUR is also still the favorite against Delver, especially if it is running Remand or Dig Through Time to balance out Delver having Treasure Cruise. And Delver cutting interaction and a decrease in BGx can only be good for WUR. I just don't see a logical reason for why it isn't winning.
From my experience, URW is too slow with too many come into play tapped lands. Remand doesnt deal with things just puts them off a turn in most cases. With Delver it rarely puts it off for a turn, but it gets recast and pumps the prowess triggers. By the time you can snapcaster into something you are down so much it is difficult to come back. In short, UWR has to play a different game against burn and Delver decks then against the rest of the field, and the deck doesnt have that type of flexibility.
i actually think its not so much about the flexibility of the WUR control as it is delver's ability to circumvent tempo's traditional weakness. with delver, swiftspear, snapcasters, and cheap instants/sorceries, the deck plays traditionally. those cards are meant to peak early when efficiency is valued over power. coupled with a lack of card advantage, the deck fizzles out after turn 4 or 5 when more powerful, high curve cards come online. so delver's performance looks like this:
but with the addition of treasure cruise, the fall off isn't as severe and the deck retains its efficiency much longer than decks of those types should.
control is the opposite. it starts slow and doesn't get to its full power until turn 6 or 7. that's one reason why they have long adapted red, because its early game removal is vital in trying to get to the late game.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
In regards to current meta being filled with aggro and burn decks, I would like to just ask if it is more viable for a control type of decks or mid range kinda of decks? And also does combo decks survive well in a aggro and burn heavy meta as well? Thx.
I'm a bit worried about the meta game getting stagnant with Burn and Delver on top. The issue seems to be that both decks are VERY good at what they do in a way that would require changes to a lot of decks' pre-board plans. But a lot of the decks that would do well against Delver have unfavorable Burn matchups and vice versa. If what you do is answer creatures and treasure cruises, then you're most likely vulnerable to getting domed for 20. If you pack a few awkward life gain spells or countermagic for burn then you can pretty easily get tempo-ed out by Delver.
What sort of strategies do people see as a way to take on both Burn and Delver?
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Current Decks
Standard: Mono Red #GetSwol
Elsewhere: Random Brews All Day, Erreday
~
I'm a bit worried about the meta game getting stagnant with Burn and Delver on top. The issue seems to be that both decks are VERY good at what they do in a way that would require changes to a lot of decks' pre-board plans. But a lot of the decks that would do well against Delver have unfavorable Burn matchups and vice versa. If what you do is answer creatures and treasure cruises, then you're most likely vulnerable to getting domed for 20. If you pack a few awkward life gain spells or countermagic for burn then you can pretty easily get tempo-ed out by Delver.
What sort of strategies do people see as a way to take on both Burn and Delver?
I still think that All-In Twin should be split from UR/RUG Twin.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I agree that splitting pure combo Twin from Tempo Twin is probably a good call.
...Anyone still play pure combo Twin? It's basically disappeared from MTGO.
Meh, it just seems like such an annoying and nuanced distinction to enforce in the threads. It also seems like a situation where most people would just be in the UR Tempo/RUG Twin thread with a bunch of confused people in the UR Combo Twin version. I'm totally fine with separating them for classification purposes to figure out the metagame, but it just doesn't seem all that productive for forum purposes.
Would merging the various URx Delver primers be a possibility in the future? All of them run the same core of delver, snapcaster, counters, burn, and from what I've seen in various decklists the splashes only dictate the flex slots in the normal lists. I play UWR delver, but I've found myself routinely visiting the UR, URB, and URG primers as well because most of the discussion is relevant to all 4 versions. This is especially relevant with Monastry Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise being tested.
I suspect the MTGO Modern meta will warp around Ascendancy Storm, possibly to the point that Ascendancy Storm hoses non-Burn aggro harder than Thopter-Sword ever could.
I'm not so sure it will but only time will tell. How many results do we have now I know that there where a couple top 8s in the first few days after release, but I haven't heard too much more after that. Is anyone collecting the results in a concise manner?
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
The interesting thing about JA Storm is that its best police deck is an aggro deck: Burn. That has historically not been the case of other Modern combo decks, and it is one reason that aggro has been so absent from the format. Burn, however, is easily the best game 1 deck against JA Storm in the format, and one of the top 3 best decks in games 2-3. Between their removal, their speedy clock that doesn't allow for recovery, and those maindecked Eidolons, the deck is just very strong against JA Storm. Add to that its other strong matches (Burn was tier 1 BEFORE JA Storm hit the scene), and you have an aggro deck that is likely to endure alongside Affinity for at least a few months.
The big loser in all of this is hard control. UWR Control decks already had a rough time against Affinity and BGx Midrange, but now has to deal with Burn (it's here to stay) and JA Storm (super resilient to clockless control). That doesn't mean blue is dead. Delver, UWR Midrange, and Twin strategies all remain very viable. Indeed, UR Delver becomes a lot stronger, as you suggested in your post. That's both because of the metagame context and also because of new tools like Cruise and maybe Swiftspear.
-Arel the Whisperer
Please no. I worked hard to get WUR Delver to get attention. It would stop being as special without its own thread. Besides, if that happened decks like Grixis Delver that don't get results would be grouped with decks like UR Delver that do. Grixis and WUR Twin have separate threads from UR/RUG Twin. Junk, BUG, and Rock have separate threads from Jund. The Delver decks should remain separate.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Agree.
As a UR player a thread with all the versions would become too diluted between people arguing to cut Bob for TC, or how many Helix and Boros charm play, or if tarmo is always good with delve. If i do care about splash i visit those threads and maybe post a question to see different opinion, but merge the threads is just useless.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
MTGO: 7/17 - 10/20
1. Burn: 14.5%
2. Melira Pod: 10%
3. UR Delver: 8.5%
4. Affinity: 8%
5. Scapeshift: 4.5%
6. UWR Control: 4%
7. Merfolk: 4%
8. RG Tron: 3.5%
9. Amulet of Vigor: 3.5%
10. UWR Midrange: 3.5%
PAPER: 7/17 - 10/20
1. Affinity: 11%
2. BG Rock: 7.5%
3. Burn: 7.5%
4. Melira Pod: 6%
5. RUG Twin: 5.5%
6. Jund: 5.5%
7. UR Twin: 5%
8. Scapeshift: 5%
9. Merfolk: 4%
10. UR Delver: 4%
And here are the frequencies in just the past two weeks. Some big differences...
MTGO: 10/3 - 10/20
1. Burn: 18.5%
2. UR Delver: 9%
3. Melira Pod: 7.5%
4. Affinity: 7.5%
5. Scapeshift: 4%
6. UWR Control: 4%
7. Merfolk: 4%
8. UWR Midrange: 4%
9. RG Tron: 3.5%
10. Amulet of Vigor: 3%
PAPER: 10/1 - 10/20
1. Burn: 8.5%
2. UR Delver: 8%
3. Melira Pod: 7%
4. Affinity: 7%
5. Scapeshift: 6.5%
6. Jund: 6%
7. BG Rock: 4.5%
8. Kiki Pod: 4.5%
9. UR Twin: 4%
10. RUG Twin: 3.5%
Paper actually looks a lot healthier than MTGO right now, with even Burn and UR Delver not exceeding Affinity's share from the summer. MTGO, however, looks really ugly, with that awful Burn share and the virtual disappearance of BGx Midrange. Cost plays a HUGE factor in this (Burn is the cheapest tier 1 deck by a substantial amount), but so do deck and metagame factors.
This tab tracks JUST the Post KTK results for online and paper events. Hopefully it will help people get a sense as to the differences in the metagames, and how that can inform discussion.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
With the rise of Delver and Burn Twin doesnt have the match ups it once did. BGx decks are down also. RWU control is not even on the list. All because of a couple cards.
Why isn't WUR doing well? Burn is becoming more creature-based and WUR still has Helix+Snapcaster+Removal. And WUR is also still the favorite against Delver, especially if it is running Remand or Dig Through Time to balance out Delver having Treasure Cruise. And Delver cutting interaction and a decrease in BGx can only be good for WUR. I just don't see a logical reason for why it isn't winning.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
makes sense. after playing for the first time in a long while tonight, and the first time since khans, i can see why the meta has shifted the way it has. tempo twin gets out tempo-ed by actual tempo decks (delver) and tempo decks are now resilient enough to fight control match ups. time to break out them delvers.. though i don't have treasure cruises, young pyros, or swiftspears. haha
From my experience, URW is too slow with too many come into play tapped lands. Remand doesnt deal with things just puts them off a turn in most cases. With Delver it rarely puts it off for a turn, but it gets recast and pumps the prowess triggers. By the time you can snapcaster into something you are down so much it is difficult to come back. In short, UWR has to play a different game against burn and Delver decks then against the rest of the field, and the deck doesnt have that type of flexibility.
but with the addition of treasure cruise, the fall off isn't as severe and the deck retains its efficiency much longer than decks of those types should.
control is the opposite. it starts slow and doesn't get to its full power until turn 6 or 7. that's one reason why they have long adapted red, because its early game removal is vital in trying to get to the late game.
Merged with Metagame thread
-ktkenshinx-
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
What sort of strategies do people see as a way to take on both Burn and Delver?
Standard: Mono Red #GetSwol
Elsewhere: Random Brews All Day, Erreday
~
Something with Lightning Helices.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.