In regards to UR Delver, I am just wondering, which splash is the best iteration of Delver right now, Temur, Grixis, Jeskai, or just straight UR Delver with no splash?
Edit: Which one amongst these variants would be the best choice in a field currently full of Twin, Affinity, Infect, Burn, Junk, Abzan Liege, and Tron, and why?
This was discussion was brought up in the WUR Delver thread and I am creating a separate thread in the hopes of moving the discussion away from the premier so it can focus on what specific cards to include, that kind of stuff. Anyways, in regards to URx Delver, I am just wondering, which splash is the best iteration of Delver right now, Temur, Grixis, Jeskai, or just straight UR Delver with no splash?
If MTGO is any indication, Grixis is by FAR the most-played version. There was basically 0 Delver in any form for a month or so after the 1/19 bannings, and now it's almost all Grixis all the time. This suggests to me that the Delver players have switched to the most viable build and are playing it. It is also possible that there's a lot of hype surrounding Grixis Delver so they have all just picked up the list to follow popular trends, and that another Delver build is secretly better. But given that Grixis Delver has a higher win rate and higher conversion rate than the other builds, this seems unlikely.
It is very close between Grixis and WUR. I'd say that Geist of Saint Traft and Tasigur are comparable, Path to Exile and Murderous Cut are comparable, and Terminate and Lightning Helix are comparable. WUR has better sideboard cards, so I have to lean towards WUR overall. That said, Grixis is having better results right now. Grixis also seems strictly better than RUG (Tasigur is very similar to Tarmogoyf and Grixis has better removal) and UR Delver got a lot worse now that it has no delve spells.
What about BUG delver? You get access to Abrupt Decay, as well as Goyf/Scooze, as well as the small upside of having an easier time activating Tasigur.
What about BUG delver? You get access to Abrupt Decay, as well as Goyf/Scooze, as well as the small upside of having an easier time activating Tasigur.
What about BUG delver? You get access to Abrupt Decay, as well as Goyf/Scooze, as well as the small upside of having an easier time activating Tasigur.
The deck plays a lot differently without red. Imagine if you're 3 points shy of lethal, no bolt, or 6 points shy of lethal, no bolt-snap-bolt.
What about BUG delver? You get access to Abrupt Decay, as well as Goyf/Scooze, as well as the small upside of having an easier time activating Tasigur.
The deck plays a lot differently without red. Imagine if you're 3 points shy of lethal, no bolt, or 6 points shy of lethal, no bolt-snap-bolt.
That single play is why there are two fair "macroarchetypes" that tend to show up as fair decks, bgx and urx. Urx of course being tempo oriented because cards like snapcaster, bolt, clique, remand, pyromancers etc skew decks torwards those powerful cards
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Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
What about BUG delver? You get access to Abrupt Decay, as well as Goyf/Scooze, as well as the small upside of having an easier time activating Tasigur.
The deck plays a lot differently without red. Imagine if you're 3 points shy of lethal, no bolt, or 6 points shy of lethal, no bolt-snap-bolt.
That single play is why there are two fair "macroarchetypes" that tend to show up as fair decks, bgx and urx. Urx of course being tempo oriented because cards like snapcaster, bolt, clique, remand, pyromancers etc skew decks torwards those powerful cards
Okey, I see. I'm still going to test BUG delver in my local modern league, just because BUG is my favorite color combination. Although the bolt-snap-bolt argument is true, I still think the 'bad' delver decks have a relatively high floor due to the individual cards powerlevel. For instance Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse are in my opinion some of the best removal in modern (alongside bolt and path). But the BUG delver wants to be grindier, and snapping/Tasiguring back removal/counterspells instead of threats.
The problem with Sultai Delver is that you eventually realise you'd just rather drop Delver of Secrets and then before you know it you're just playing BGx midrange.
And at that point, you realize you're better off dropping the blue, adding white, and bringing in Siege Rhino, Voice, Path, Lingering Souls, etc. and you'd have a much, much better deck.
UR just doesn't have the raw gas now that Treasure Cruise is gone. It's very easy to just run out of stuff, and unlike BGx decks, your topdecks aren't nearly as good as your opponents.
WUR feels bad to me. I'd rather just take out the Delvers and play Jeskai Midrange (which is a better deck in the sense that it sometimes puts up results).
RUG also feels worse than Grixis. Tarmogoyf is a good card, but Tasigur plays much of the same role (a beater that can come down on T2 and act as a major clock) and is bigger than Goyf in the earlier stages of the game. In addition, you get much more powerful removal in the form of Murderous Cut and Terminate, which take care of Delver's historic problem of dealing with fat buffoons.
I would have said that UR Delver is probably the best pre-FRF, but with Tasigur and the Black removal options, Grixis is clearly superior (and has the results to back that up).
I completely agree, but it sometimes puts up results (which is more than you can say for Jeskai Delver).
I honestly think that the only reason why Jeskai Delver isn't putting up results is because no one is playing it. It used to be a tier 1 deck before Return to Ravnica. Since then, while it has gotten worse due to Junk gaining a lot of tools, it has gained several useful cards. It is certainly stronger than WUR Midrange (WUR Midrange is too slow to fight to fast decks and has too low of a power-level to fight the fair decks) and is stronger than most of the Delver decks (UR Delver dies to a single Abrupt Decay and is terrible in the late-game and RUG Delver is just a strictly worse Grixis Delver that has similar problems to UR Delver but with a slightly better late-game).
The Grixis version even got me playing it even though Im not normally into aggressive strategies but I kinda like it.
Especially like the use of Deprive. For a deck that doesn't have much use for many lands it's basically Counterspell.
It's possible. I know some people were messing around with Jeskai Delver when TC was a thing. I'm just not sure what the deck gets over Grixis. Geist doesn't strike me as particularly more powerful than Tasigur. Path is nice, but I feel like Murderous Cut generally does what you want it to do.
It might just need some more people on it like Bloom Titan did, but I just don't think it's that much better than the other options to make it worth it.
It's possible. I know some people were messing around with Jeskai Delver when TC was a thing. I'm just not sure what the deck gets over Grixis. Geist doesn't strike me as particularly more powerful than Tasigur. Path is nice, but I feel like Murderous Cut generally does what you want it to do.
It might just need some more people on it like Bloom Titan did, but I just don't think it's that much better than the other options to make it worth it.
Geist and Tasigur are about equal, they are just better in different matchups (Tasigur is better against decks with a lot of creatures and Geist is better against decks without a lot of creatures). Path to Exile and Murderous Cut are similarly equal. Lightning Helix and Terminate are also about equal. The thing that I think makes WUR a better deck is that, despite their maindeck cards being about equal, WUR has much better sideboard cards.
It's possible. I know some people were messing around with Jeskai Delver when TC was a thing. I'm just not sure what the deck gets over Grixis. Geist doesn't strike me as particularly more powerful than Tasigur. Path is nice, but I feel like Murderous Cut generally does what you want it to do.
It might just need some more people on it like Bloom Titan did, but I just don't think it's that much better than the other options to make it worth it.
Geist and Tasigur are about equal, they are just better in different matchups (Tasigur is better against decks with a lot of creatures and Geist is better against decks without a lot of creatures). Path to Exile and Murderous Cut are similarly equal. Lightning Helix and Terminate are also about equal. The thing that I think makes WUR a better deck is that, despite their maindeck cards being about equal, WUR has much better sideboard cards.
Woah there. Terminate kills everything for two mana. Lightning Helix kills maybe something for two mana.
Pretty noticeable in the Abzan matchup for example.
Sure you gain 3 life but since you are so often the beatdown anyway in matchups I feel that it doesn't really matter as much as it does in slower decks which want to stabilize.
Terminate is the entire reason to play BR over RW. It's just such an incredibly efficient removal spell. It only gets overshadowed because Path to Exile is a thing.
It's possible. I know some people were messing around with Jeskai Delver when TC was a thing. I'm just not sure what the deck gets over Grixis. Geist doesn't strike me as particularly more powerful than Tasigur. Path is nice, but I feel like Murderous Cut generally does what you want it to do.
It might just need some more people on it like Bloom Titan did, but I just don't think it's that much better than the other options to make it worth it.
Geist and Tasigur are about equal, they are just better in different matchups (Tasigur is better against decks with a lot of creatures and Geist is better against decks without a lot of creatures). Path to Exile and Murderous Cut are similarly equal. Lightning Helix and Terminate are also about equal. The thing that I think makes WUR a better deck is that, despite their maindeck cards being about equal, WUR has much better sideboard cards.
Woah there. Terminate kills everything for two mana. Lightning Helix kills maybe something for two mana.
Pretty noticeable in the Abzan matchup for example.
Sure you gain 3 life but since you are so often the beatdown anyway in matchups I feel that it doesn't really matter as much as it does in slower decks which want to stabilize.
Grixis has a terrible Burn matchup. Lightning Helix solves that problem. Also, Lightning Helix is a lot better when you are on the beatdown because you can use it as a Burn spell. Terminate helps remove blockers, but Lightning Helix helps kill the opponent directly.
Just to throw a question out there for people to discuss.
Between Grixis and Jeskai Delver, which deck is better in a field currently full of Twin, Affinity, Infect, Burn, Junk, and to a lesser degree Abzan Liege and Tron, and why?
Just to throw 2 questions out there for people to discuss.
1. In a head to head matchup between Grixis and Jeskai Delver, which deck is more favored and why?
2. In a field currently full of Twin, Affinity, Infect, Burn, Junk, and to a lesser degree Abzan Liege and Tron, between Grixis or Jeskai Delver which deck is the better choice and why?
1. I think Jeskai is favored as long as the Grixis player isn't running Liliana of the Veil. Lightning Helix is better against Grixis than Terminate is against Jeskai, giving your opponent an extra land with path to Exile doesn't matter much in the Delver semi-mirror, and Grixis (without Liliana) has big problems answering a Geist of Saint Traft.
2. I'd argue that it would be Jeskai. It is better against Affinity, Tron, and Burn similar against Infect and Twin, and worse against Abzan Liege and Junk pre-board (after sideboard Jeskai is better off than Grixis because of Mirran Crusader).
I would argue the opposite. Jeskai is going to have a real problem getting a threat to stick, as Geist trades with any of Grixis's creatures and Grixis also packs a ton of removal for the other stuff. Tasigur does NOT die to any of Jeskai's creatures and requires Path to answer. If Path eats a counter, then it's downhill from there.
2. I'd argue that it would be Jeskai. It is better against Affinity, Tron, and Burn similar against Infect and Twin, and worse against Abzan Liege and Junk pre-board (after sideboard Jeskai is better off than Grixis because of Mirran Crusader).
How is Jeskai better against Tron, Infect and Twin than Grixis? Grixis has the removal for Twin in both Terminate and Murderous cut that stop the Twin combo cold and that blow out an Infect creature if they don't have valid protection. Yes, Jeskai can counter Wurmcoil with Path, but Grixis also has the opportunity to answer Tron with Dreadbore.
Like I get that you like Jeskai, but when it's putting up literally no results in the meta he's describing, while Grixis is (and is doing fairly well at a 50% win rate), I can't see how your argument is supported by the numbers or the meta.
I would actually disagree. While the option is available, no Grixis Delver list plays hand disruption. It's like the most anti-tempo play you can do.
Grixis Twin, on the other hand, usually plays 3-4 hand disruption main and it makes the Twin mirror actually pretty good.
Edit: I would also like to take this time to say that I don't think Jeskai Delver is a bad deck or that you shouldn't play it. If you like Jeskai and you like Delver, run it. It's pretty fun.
However, Grixis seems to be the most competitive of the Delver lists since the FRF ban list update. Hell, it's the ONLY competitive list (check out mtgtop8's UR Aggro. Every list on there is Grixis). Arguing that it's not more competitive when the numbers clearly back it up seems kind of silly to me.
I would argue the opposite. Jeskai is going to have a real problem getting a threat to stick, as Geist trades with any of Grixis's creatures and Grixis also packs a ton of removal for the other stuff. Tasigur does NOT die to any of Jeskai's creatures and requires Path to answer. If Path eats a counter, then it's downhill from there.
I actually am playing 3 Valorous Stance maindeck, which solves a lot of my problems with Jeskai Delver. It is versatile removal that can also be protection. It kills Tasigur too, so Tasigur isn't exactly invincible.
2. I'd argue that it would be Jeskai. It is better against Affinity, Tron, and Burn similar against Infect and Twin, and worse against Abzan Liege and Junk pre-board (after sideboard Jeskai is better off than Grixis because of Mirran Crusader).
How is Jeskai better against Tron, Infect and Twin than Grixis? Grixis has the removal for Twin in both Terminate and Murderous cut that stop the Twin combo cold and that blow out an Infect creature if they don't have valid protection. Yes, Jeskai can counter Wurmcoil with Path, but Grixis also has the opportunity to answer Tron with Dreadbore.
I already told you, I am running 4 Paths and 3 Valorous Stance maindeck. Problems solved. Also, since when is Grixis Delver running maindeck Dreadbores?
Like I get that you like Jeskai, but when it's putting up literally no results in the meta he's describing, while Grixis is (and is doing fairly well at a 50% win rate), I can't see how your argument is supported by the numbers or the meta.
It isn't, I am basing it off of theory. I sincerely doubt that as many people are playing Jeskai Delver as Grixis Delver and Grixis Delver has gotten a lot more time being featured than jeskai has.
I would actually disagree. While the option is available, no Grixis Delver list plays hand disruption. It's like the most anti-tempo play you can do.
Grixis Twin, on the other hand, usually plays 3-4 hand disruption main and it makes the Twin mirror actually pretty good.
Edit: I would also like to take this time to say that I don't think Jeskai Delver is a bad deck or that you shouldn't play it. If you like Jeskai and you like Delver, run it. It's pretty fun.
However, Grixis seems to be the most competitive of the Delver lists since the FRF ban list update. Hell, it's the ONLY competitive list (check out mtgtop8's UR Aggro. Every list on there is Grixis). Arguing that it's not more competitive when the numbers clearly back it up seems kind of silly to me.
I am not arguing that it has better competitive results. I am arguing that in theory it is a stronger deck.
Edit: Which one amongst these variants would be the best choice in a field currently full of Twin, Affinity, Infect, Burn, Junk, Abzan Liege, and Tron, and why?
EDIT: That said, don't play Delver right now. It's just a losing proposition.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
If MTGO is any indication, Grixis is by FAR the most-played version. There was basically 0 Delver in any form for a month or so after the 1/19 bannings, and now it's almost all Grixis all the time. This suggests to me that the Delver players have switched to the most viable build and are playing it. It is also possible that there's a lot of hype surrounding Grixis Delver so they have all just picked up the list to follow popular trends, and that another Delver build is secretly better. But given that Grixis Delver has a higher win rate and higher conversion rate than the other builds, this seems unlikely.
It is very close between Grixis and WUR. I'd say that Geist of Saint Traft and Tasigur are comparable, Path to Exile and Murderous Cut are comparable, and Terminate and Lightning Helix are comparable. WUR has better sideboard cards, so I have to lean towards WUR overall. That said, Grixis is having better results right now. Grixis also seems strictly better than RUG (Tasigur is very similar to Tarmogoyf and Grixis has better removal) and UR Delver got a lot worse now that it has no delve spells.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The nonred versions of Delver aren't great.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That single play is why there are two fair "macroarchetypes" that tend to show up as fair decks, bgx and urx. Urx of course being tempo oriented because cards like snapcaster, bolt, clique, remand, pyromancers etc skew decks torwards those powerful cards
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Okey, I see. I'm still going to test BUG delver in my local modern league, just because BUG is my favorite color combination. Although the bolt-snap-bolt argument is true, I still think the 'bad' delver decks have a relatively high floor due to the individual cards powerlevel. For instance Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse are in my opinion some of the best removal in modern (alongside bolt and path). But the BUG delver wants to be grindier, and snapping/Tasiguring back removal/counterspells instead of threats.
And at that point, you realize you're better off dropping the blue, adding white, and bringing in Siege Rhino, Voice, Path, Lingering Souls, etc. and you'd have a much, much better deck.
UR just doesn't have the raw gas now that Treasure Cruise is gone. It's very easy to just run out of stuff, and unlike BGx decks, your topdecks aren't nearly as good as your opponents.
WUR feels bad to me. I'd rather just take out the Delvers and play Jeskai Midrange (which is a better deck in the sense that it sometimes puts up results).
RUG also feels worse than Grixis. Tarmogoyf is a good card, but Tasigur plays much of the same role (a beater that can come down on T2 and act as a major clock) and is bigger than Goyf in the earlier stages of the game. In addition, you get much more powerful removal in the form of Murderous Cut and Terminate, which take care of Delver's historic problem of dealing with fat buffoons.
I would have said that UR Delver is probably the best pre-FRF, but with Tasigur and the Black removal options, Grixis is clearly superior (and has the results to back that up).
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I honestly think that the only reason why Jeskai Delver isn't putting up results is because no one is playing it. It used to be a tier 1 deck before Return to Ravnica. Since then, while it has gotten worse due to Junk gaining a lot of tools, it has gained several useful cards. It is certainly stronger than WUR Midrange (WUR Midrange is too slow to fight to fast decks and has too low of a power-level to fight the fair decks) and is stronger than most of the Delver decks (UR Delver dies to a single Abrupt Decay and is terrible in the late-game and RUG Delver is just a strictly worse Grixis Delver that has similar problems to UR Delver but with a slightly better late-game).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Especially like the use of Deprive. For a deck that doesn't have much use for many lands it's basically Counterspell.
It might just need some more people on it like Bloom Titan did, but I just don't think it's that much better than the other options to make it worth it.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Geist and Tasigur are about equal, they are just better in different matchups (Tasigur is better against decks with a lot of creatures and Geist is better against decks without a lot of creatures). Path to Exile and Murderous Cut are similarly equal. Lightning Helix and Terminate are also about equal. The thing that I think makes WUR a better deck is that, despite their maindeck cards being about equal, WUR has much better sideboard cards.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Woah there.
Terminate kills everything for two mana.
Lightning Helix kills maybe something for two mana.
Pretty noticeable in the Abzan matchup for example.
Sure you gain 3 life but since you are so often the beatdown anyway in matchups I feel that it doesn't really matter as much as it does in slower decks which want to stabilize.
Grixis has a terrible Burn matchup. Lightning Helix solves that problem. Also, Lightning Helix is a lot better when you are on the beatdown because you can use it as a Burn spell. Terminate helps remove blockers, but Lightning Helix helps kill the opponent directly.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Between Grixis and Jeskai Delver, which deck is better in a field currently full of Twin, Affinity, Infect, Burn, Junk, and to a lesser degree Abzan Liege and Tron, and why?
1. I think Jeskai is favored as long as the Grixis player isn't running Liliana of the Veil. Lightning Helix is better against Grixis than Terminate is against Jeskai, giving your opponent an extra land with path to Exile doesn't matter much in the Delver semi-mirror, and Grixis (without Liliana) has big problems answering a Geist of Saint Traft.
2. I'd argue that it would be Jeskai. It is better against Affinity, Tron, and Burn similar against Infect and Twin, and worse against Abzan Liege and Junk pre-board (after sideboard Jeskai is better off than Grixis because of Mirran Crusader).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
How is Jeskai better against Tron, Infect and Twin than Grixis? Grixis has the removal for Twin in both Terminate and Murderous cut that stop the Twin combo cold and that blow out an Infect creature if they don't have valid protection. Yes, Jeskai can counter Wurmcoil with Path, but Grixis also has the opportunity to answer Tron with Dreadbore.
Like I get that you like Jeskai, but when it's putting up literally no results in the meta he's describing, while Grixis is (and is doing fairly well at a 50% win rate), I can't see how your argument is supported by the numbers or the meta.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Grixis Twin, on the other hand, usually plays 3-4 hand disruption main and it makes the Twin mirror actually pretty good.
Edit: I would also like to take this time to say that I don't think Jeskai Delver is a bad deck or that you shouldn't play it. If you like Jeskai and you like Delver, run it. It's pretty fun.
However, Grixis seems to be the most competitive of the Delver lists since the FRF ban list update. Hell, it's the ONLY competitive list (check out mtgtop8's UR Aggro. Every list on there is Grixis). Arguing that it's not more competitive when the numbers clearly back it up seems kind of silly to me.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I actually am playing 3 Valorous Stance maindeck, which solves a lot of my problems with Jeskai Delver. It is versatile removal that can also be protection. It kills Tasigur too, so Tasigur isn't exactly invincible.
I already told you, I am running 4 Paths and 3 Valorous Stance maindeck. Problems solved. Also, since when is Grixis Delver running maindeck Dreadbores?
It isn't, I am basing it off of theory. I sincerely doubt that as many people are playing Jeskai Delver as Grixis Delver and Grixis Delver has gotten a lot more time being featured than jeskai has.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I am not arguing that it has better competitive results. I am arguing that in theory it is a stronger deck.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.