Jeskai Delver just simply isn't a competitive deck. The list tries to do too many things at once and in the process it gives up too much from any one strategy. Delver and Geist don't follow the same strategy. And much more obviously, Path and Mana Leak should NOT be in the same deck. In fact, Path shouldn't be in the same deck as Delver, regardless of whether or not it runs Mana Leak. No deck based around gaining tempo advantages can ever afford giving their opponent tempo. So once you realize that Path is actively horrible in the list, and that Geist probably shouldn't be there either, the next best thing you get from the White splash (aside from SB) is Lightning Helix. But all that really does is catch you up on the life lost for splashing a third color in the first place. If you're going to splash into other colors you might as well go Green for Tarmogoyf or Black for Tasigur and unconditional cheap answers like Terminate and Murderous Cut. Not only are those cards more impactful, but they also flow along with your deck's overall strategy, unlike their White card counterparts.
Jeskai Delver just simply isn't a competitive deck. The list tries to do too many things at once and in the process it gives up too much from any one strategy. Delver and Geist don't follow the same strategy. And much more obviously, Path and Mana Leak should NOT be in the same deck. In fact, Path shouldn't be in the same deck as Delver, regardless of whether or not it runs Mana Leak. No deck based around gaining tempo advantages can ever afford giving their opponent tempo. So once you realize that Path is actively horrible in the list, and that Geist probably shouldn't be there either, the next best thing you get from the White splash (aside from SB) is Lightning Helix. But all that really does is catch you up on the life lost for splashing a third color in the first place. If you're going to splash into other colors you might as well go Green for Tarmogoyf or Black for Tasigur and unconditional cheap answers like Terminate and Murderous Cut. Not only are those cards more impactful, but they also flow along with your deck's overall strategy, unlike their White card counterparts.
If Jeskai was so bad pre-Khans, then how was it the only deck that did well in a large tournament for several months (top 16 at GP Kobe)? I understand why you can criticize it now because it doesn't have results, but when it had results you can't exactly say it was bad. Also, with Cruise it had much better results than Grixis did. Sure, it isn't doing well now, but it was the best Delver deck before Return to Ravnica, second best Delver deck before Cruise and after RTR, and the third best Delver deck with Cruise if you just look at results.
Lets just say right now is all about after TC banning, before TC banning it is definitely UR Delver the best archetype then Temur Delver.
Jeskai Delver wasn't that successful after TC is because they take way too much burn from shocklands, you need the mana to play turn 3 Geist so yeah, the deck only plays 3 basics.
U/R Delver after TC banning does still exists, there was one guy won a SCG IQ with UR delver recently, however the deck lose TC so the power level went down by a lot.
Temur Delver is fine, but I think it just can't beat better decks like Abzan etc.
Grixis Delver is kind of strong atm due to black delve cards like Tasigur, Murderous Cut, the deck can cast them easily using Scour. Another advantage the deck can use is Blood Moon.
Jeskai Delver just simply isn't a competitive deck. The list tries to do too many things at once and in the process it gives up too much from any one strategy. Delver and Geist don't follow the same strategy. And much more obviously, Path and Mana Leak should NOT be in the same deck. In fact, Path shouldn't be in the same deck as Delver, regardless of whether or not it runs Mana Leak. No deck based around gaining tempo advantages can ever afford giving their opponent tempo. So once you realize that Path is actively horrible in the list, and that Geist probably shouldn't be there either, the next best thing you get from the White splash (aside from SB) is Lightning Helix. But all that really does is catch you up on the life lost for splashing a third color in the first place. If you're going to splash into other colors you might as well go Green for Tarmogoyf or Black for Tasigur and unconditional cheap answers like Terminate and Murderous Cut. Not only are those cards more impactful, but they also flow along with your deck's overall strategy, unlike their White card counterparts.
If Jeskai was so bad pre-Khans, then how was it the only deck that did well in a large tournament for several months (top 16 at GP Kobe)? I understand why you can criticize it now because it doesn't have results, but when it had results you can't exactly say it was bad. Also, with Cruise it had much better results than Grixis did. Sure, it isn't doing well now, but it was the best Delver deck before Return to Ravnica, second best Delver deck before Cruise and after RTR, and the third best Delver deck with Cruise if you just look at results.
"Before Return to Ravnica" was over 2 years ago. I wasn't thinking that far back.
Jeskai Delver just simply isn't a competitive deck. The list tries to do too many things at once and in the process it gives up too much from any one strategy. Delver and Geist don't follow the same strategy. And much more obviously, Path and Mana Leak should NOT be in the same deck. In fact, Path shouldn't be in the same deck as Delver, regardless of whether or not it runs Mana Leak. No deck based around gaining tempo advantages can ever afford giving their opponent tempo. So once you realize that Path is actively horrible in the list, and that Geist probably shouldn't be there either, the next best thing you get from the White splash (aside from SB) is Lightning Helix. But all that really does is catch you up on the life lost for splashing a third color in the first place. If you're going to splash into other colors you might as well go Green for Tarmogoyf or Black for Tasigur and unconditional cheap answers like Terminate and Murderous Cut. Not only are those cards more impactful, but they also flow along with your deck's overall strategy, unlike their White card counterparts.
If Jeskai was so bad pre-Khans, then how was it the only deck that did well in a large tournament for several months (top 16 at GP Kobe)? I understand why you can criticize it now because it doesn't have results, but when it had results you can't exactly say it was bad. Also, with Cruise it had much better results than Grixis did. Sure, it isn't doing well now, but it was the best Delver deck before Return to Ravnica, second best Delver deck before Cruise and after RTR, and the third best Delver deck with Cruise if you just look at results.
"Before Return to Ravnica" was over 2 years ago. I wasn't thinking that far back.
Yeah, but you also weren't remembering the Cruise era correctly or the pre-Cruise era correctly.
Jeskai Delver just simply isn't a competitive deck. The list tries to do too many things at once and in the process it gives up too much from any one strategy. Delver and Geist don't follow the same strategy. And much more obviously, Path and Mana Leak should NOT be in the same deck. In fact, Path shouldn't be in the same deck as Delver, regardless of whether or not it runs Mana Leak. No deck based around gaining tempo advantages can ever afford giving their opponent tempo. So once you realize that Path is actively horrible in the list, and that Geist probably shouldn't be there either, the next best thing you get from the White splash (aside from SB) is Lightning Helix. But all that really does is catch you up on the life lost for splashing a third color in the first place. If you're going to splash into other colors you might as well go Green for Tarmogoyf or Black for Tasigur and unconditional cheap answers like Terminate and Murderous Cut. Not only are those cards more impactful, but they also flow along with your deck's overall strategy, unlike their White card counterparts.
If Jeskai was so bad pre-Khans, then how was it the only deck that did well in a large tournament for several months (top 16 at GP Kobe)? I understand why you can criticize it now because it doesn't have results, but when it had results you can't exactly say it was bad. Also, with Cruise it had much better results than Grixis did. Sure, it isn't doing well now, but it was the best Delver deck before Return to Ravnica, second best Delver deck before Cruise and after RTR, and the third best Delver deck with Cruise if you just look at results.
"Before Return to Ravnica" was over 2 years ago. I wasn't thinking that far back.
Yeah, but you also weren't remembering the Cruise era correctly or the pre-Cruise era correctly.
I disagree with that, but I know Jeskai Delver is your deck so us parsing the numbers differently and getting different results isn't going to sway either of us.
Jeskai Delver just simply isn't a competitive deck. The list tries to do too many things at once and in the process it gives up too much from any one strategy. Delver and Geist don't follow the same strategy. And much more obviously, Path and Mana Leak should NOT be in the same deck. In fact, Path shouldn't be in the same deck as Delver, regardless of whether or not it runs Mana Leak. No deck based around gaining tempo advantages can ever afford giving their opponent tempo. So once you realize that Path is actively horrible in the list, and that Geist probably shouldn't be there either, the next best thing you get from the White splash (aside from SB) is Lightning Helix. But all that really does is catch you up on the life lost for splashing a third color in the first place. If you're going to splash into other colors you might as well go Green for Tarmogoyf or Black for Tasigur and unconditional cheap answers like Terminate and Murderous Cut. Not only are those cards more impactful, but they also flow along with your deck's overall strategy, unlike their White card counterparts.
If Jeskai was so bad pre-Khans, then how was it the only deck that did well in a large tournament for several months (top 16 at GP Kobe)? I understand why you can criticize it now because it doesn't have results, but when it had results you can't exactly say it was bad. Also, with Cruise it had much better results than Grixis did. Sure, it isn't doing well now, but it was the best Delver deck before Return to Ravnica, second best Delver deck before Cruise and after RTR, and the third best Delver deck with Cruise if you just look at results.
"Before Return to Ravnica" was over 2 years ago. I wasn't thinking that far back.
Yeah, but you also weren't remembering the Cruise era correctly or the pre-Cruise era correctly.
I disagree with that, but I know Jeskai Delver is your deck so us parsing the numbers differently and getting different results isn't going to sway either of us.
Grixis Delver got basically no results in the entire Treasure Cruise era. How can you possibly say that it did better than WUR Delver (or at least UR Delver splashing white), which got a top 16 at GP Madrid and was played at the World Championships? Similarly, both Grixis and RUG were getting almost no results pre-Khans, while WUR Delver got a top 16 at GP Kobe. Sure, based on results it wasn't the best Delver deck then, but it certainly wasn't the worst.
(Black for Tasigur and unconditional cheap answers like Terminate and Murderous Cut. Not only are those cards more impactful, but they also flow along with your deck's overall strategy, unlike their White card counterparts.) well said man! Ive been toying around with the 3 delver archtypes and I agree that grixis is the best of he 3 but is it tier 1 yet? its putting up really good results.
(Black for Tasigur and unconditional cheap answers like Terminate and Murderous Cut. Not only are those cards more impactful, but they also flow along with your deck's overall strategy, unlike their White card counterparts.) well said man! Ive been toying around with the 3 delver archtypes and I agree that grixis is the best of he 3 but is it tier 1 yet? its putting up really good results.
No but it already got into the Tier 2 section of the forum. It may become Tier 1 later down the road. If it can help reduce the numbers of the non-interactive decks than Im all for it.
If it can help reduce the numbers of the non-interactive decks than Im all for it.
Delver tends to be pretty good at that. There's so much cheap disruption.
True.
Though from playing it myself I have noticed that there is definitely stuff that is tough to deal with and that can quickly lead to losing the game.
Takes a bit getting used to when you have a BG/x background like me which has an easier time in that regard thanks to discard and the best removal in the format.
I think it's a fine deck and Im curious how high it will reach but I don't think I will ever make it my main deck. It just doesn't fit my play style that well. Im playing the deck way more cautiously and defensively than I probably should.
Grixis Delver is kind of strong atm due to black delve cards like Tasigur, Murderous Cut, the deck can cast them easily using Scour. Another advantage the deck can use is Blood Moon.
Just curious, why does the Blood Moon advantage go to Delver? All 4 UR Delver variants are able to utilize Blood Moon. Does Grixis do it better than the other 3?
Grixis Delver is kind of strong atm due to black delve cards like Tasigur, Murderous Cut, the deck can cast them easily using Scour. Another advantage the deck can use is Blood Moon.
Just curious, why does the Blood Moon advantage go to Delver? All 4 UR Delver variants are able to utilize Blood Moon. Does Grixis do it better than the other 3?
U/R doesn't have great finishers like Geist or Tasigur to close the game out after a moon.
Geist needs W and U if you want to cast it after a blood moon. Tasigur only needs B, so you can keep your single island up for countermagic. You can sometimes sneak a t2 Tasigur in and a t3 Blood Moon. The other Delver variations lack this line of play.Well, except RUG, which has Goyf. But RUG and UR both lack decent removal vs opposing goofs/rhino's.
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“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
According to some stats based websites, Grixis Delver is not between 8-10% of the online meta. It looks like people are discovering how ridiculously powerful this deck is.
According to some stats based websites, Grixis Delver is not between 8-10% of the online meta. It looks like people are discovering how ridiculously powerful this deck is.
Good thing I traded for some Polluted Deltas and Bloodstained Mires today.
According to some stats based websites, Grixis Delver is not between 8-10% of the online meta. It looks like people are discovering how ridiculously powerful this deck is.
Using the Modern Nexus top decks page stats, we see Grixis Delver with about a 3.9% MTGO share and a 1.8% paper share. But that's in the period from 3/1 to 4/12, and we know that Grixis Delver only really took off in the later weeks of March. But if we look at that last week of March (3/23) through the present, we see Grixis Delver at a much more commanding 6.7% of the MTGO metagame. Paper sees a parallel rise to 2.9%, which isn't quite as dramatic but is still consistent with the upward trend.
Also, in having looked over some "deeper dive" MTGO datasets (all finishes, not just 4-0/3-1 ones), Grixis Delver is about that common at all levels of a daily. Expect to see it in somewhere between 6%-8% of your games, but also expect this number to keep inching up as more people enjoy the deck. If this gets a big paper finish in the June GPs, this is an archetype that could easily just blow up.
If this gets a big paper finish in the June GPs, this is an archetype that could easily just blow up.
Not to mention that Star City Games will be running more Modern Opens. If this deck does well in a tournament and/or gets a feature match, it would be a huge boost to the deck's popularity.
If this gets a big paper finish in the June GPs, this is an archetype that could easily just blow up.
Not to mention that Star City Games will be running more Modern Opens. If this deck does well in a tournament and/or gets a feature match, it would be a huge boost to the deck's popularity.
Ugh, I am in a bitter/sweet spot with the deck's popularity: I love seeing the deck make a dent in the format, but I hate that because its popularity grows, so does the price of the cards that I need in paper form!!!! Its not like Scalding Tarns and Snapcaster Mages are ever going to be cheap until another reprint, but this will make them rise until at least BFZ. Also Blood Moon has jumped a few dollars recently probably because of the 2 sideboard slots for the deck as well.
I would disagree completely. Each of those cards sees play in Twin, which is way more popular. While I wouldn't be surprised that Delver is pushing demand for the cards somewhat, the lion's share is likely from Twin.
I would disagree completely. Each of those cards sees play in Twin, which is way more popular. While I wouldn't be surprised that Delver is pushing demand for the cards somewhat, the lion's share is likely from Twin.
This.
I really only came to building this deck because I already owned all the cards because of Twin and BG/x. And Delver of Secrets and Young Pyromancer are commons and uncommons respectively. Not really a bank-breaking investment.
I just feel like BUG delver is a very watered down BG shell trying to use Delver + soft permission instead of a more threat dense shell using Siege Rhino, Lingering Souls, Voice, etc. which just sounds better on paper.
Also Modern BUG doesn't have Jace or DRS or Daze or Force of Will, which is probably a big reason why it isn't played much in modern.
WUR feels bad to me. I'd rather just take out the Delvers and play Jeskai Midrange (which is a better deck in the sense that it sometimes puts up results).
What's funny is that now I'm building WUR Midrange lol. I like it better than WUR Delver.
Temur > UR > Grixis > Jeskai
With TC:
UR > Temur > Grixis > Jeskai
Post-TC:
Grixis > Temur > UR > Jeskai
Jeskai Delver just simply isn't a competitive deck. The list tries to do too many things at once and in the process it gives up too much from any one strategy. Delver and Geist don't follow the same strategy. And much more obviously, Path and Mana Leak should NOT be in the same deck. In fact, Path shouldn't be in the same deck as Delver, regardless of whether or not it runs Mana Leak. No deck based around gaining tempo advantages can ever afford giving their opponent tempo. So once you realize that Path is actively horrible in the list, and that Geist probably shouldn't be there either, the next best thing you get from the White splash (aside from SB) is Lightning Helix. But all that really does is catch you up on the life lost for splashing a third color in the first place. If you're going to splash into other colors you might as well go Green for Tarmogoyf or Black for Tasigur and unconditional cheap answers like Terminate and Murderous Cut. Not only are those cards more impactful, but they also flow along with your deck's overall strategy, unlike their White card counterparts.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
If Jeskai was so bad pre-Khans, then how was it the only deck that did well in a large tournament for several months (top 16 at GP Kobe)? I understand why you can criticize it now because it doesn't have results, but when it had results you can't exactly say it was bad. Also, with Cruise it had much better results than Grixis did. Sure, it isn't doing well now, but it was the best Delver deck before Return to Ravnica, second best Delver deck before Cruise and after RTR, and the third best Delver deck with Cruise if you just look at results.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Jeskai Delver wasn't that successful after TC is because they take way too much burn from shocklands, you need the mana to play turn 3 Geist so yeah, the deck only plays 3 basics.
U/R Delver after TC banning does still exists, there was one guy won a SCG IQ with UR delver recently, however the deck lose TC so the power level went down by a lot.
Temur Delver is fine, but I think it just can't beat better decks like Abzan etc.
Grixis Delver is kind of strong atm due to black delve cards like Tasigur, Murderous Cut, the deck can cast them easily using Scour. Another advantage the deck can use is Blood Moon.
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Yeah, but you also weren't remembering the Cruise era correctly or the pre-Cruise era correctly.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Grixis Delver got basically no results in the entire Treasure Cruise era. How can you possibly say that it did better than WUR Delver (or at least UR Delver splashing white), which got a top 16 at GP Madrid and was played at the World Championships? Similarly, both Grixis and RUG were getting almost no results pre-Khans, while WUR Delver got a top 16 at GP Kobe. Sure, based on results it wasn't the best Delver deck then, but it certainly wasn't the worst.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
decks playing:
none
No but it already got into the Tier 2 section of the forum. It may become Tier 1 later down the road. If it can help reduce the numbers of the non-interactive decks than Im all for it.
Delver tends to be pretty good at that. There's so much cheap disruption.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
This is exactly why I wish Dig Through Time was still legal. Dig was certainly strong, but it helped keep the non-interactive decks in check.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
True.
Though from playing it myself I have noticed that there is definitely stuff that is tough to deal with and that can quickly lead to losing the game.
Takes a bit getting used to when you have a BG/x background like me which has an easier time in that regard thanks to discard and the best removal in the format.
I think it's a fine deck and Im curious how high it will reach but I don't think I will ever make it my main deck. It just doesn't fit my play style that well. Im playing the deck way more cautiously and defensively than I probably should.
U/R doesn't have great finishers like Geist or Tasigur to close the game out after a moon.
Geist needs W and U if you want to cast it after a blood moon. Tasigur only needs B, so you can keep your single island up for countermagic. You can sometimes sneak a t2 Tasigur in and a t3 Blood Moon. The other Delver variations lack this line of play.Well, except RUG, which has Goyf. But RUG and UR both lack decent removal vs opposing goofs/rhino's.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Using the Modern Nexus top decks page stats, we see Grixis Delver with about a 3.9% MTGO share and a 1.8% paper share. But that's in the period from 3/1 to 4/12, and we know that Grixis Delver only really took off in the later weeks of March. But if we look at that last week of March (3/23) through the present, we see Grixis Delver at a much more commanding 6.7% of the MTGO metagame. Paper sees a parallel rise to 2.9%, which isn't quite as dramatic but is still consistent with the upward trend.
Also, in having looked over some "deeper dive" MTGO datasets (all finishes, not just 4-0/3-1 ones), Grixis Delver is about that common at all levels of a daily. Expect to see it in somewhere between 6%-8% of your games, but also expect this number to keep inching up as more people enjoy the deck. If this gets a big paper finish in the June GPs, this is an archetype that could easily just blow up.
Not to mention that Star City Games will be running more Modern Opens. If this deck does well in a tournament and/or gets a feature match, it would be a huge boost to the deck's popularity.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Ugh, I am in a bitter/sweet spot with the deck's popularity: I love seeing the deck make a dent in the format, but I hate that because its popularity grows, so does the price of the cards that I need in paper form!!!! Its not like Scalding Tarns and Snapcaster Mages are ever going to be cheap until another reprint, but this will make them rise until at least BFZ. Also Blood Moon has jumped a few dollars recently probably because of the 2 sideboard slots for the deck as well.
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Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
This.
I really only came to building this deck because I already owned all the cards because of Twin and BG/x. And Delver of Secrets and Young Pyromancer are commons and uncommons respectively. Not really a bank-breaking investment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpwfLeLrNsg&feature=autoshare
Also Modern BUG doesn't have Jace or DRS or Daze or Force of Will, which is probably a big reason why it isn't played much in modern.
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