Who the **** cares if they can now unban some blue cards when (if) those decks become strong, they WILL BE BANNED.
Yeah, this is the big problem. It just opens the floodgates to anything being banned as long as its Tier 1. It also spikes ban mania to new levels. Tron and Affinity could easily be next just because they do well in Top 8s. Their overall metagame share doesn't even seem to matter to Wizards, which suggests Wizards has a significantly less nuanced view of metagames than we do as a community or as individuals. I'm not super concerned about the metagame adapting (it probably will), but I'm deeply worried about how this affects investment in the format and buying in to its top decks.
I am 100% behind Wotc's decision. I don't exactly see why many people think this comes out of the blue. Sure, Twin may not have had Pod's numbers, but it WAS, and make no mistake about it, the most constistent deck win-wise in the history of the format.
The problem behind the ban as I understand it is twofold: i) That it makes people hesitant to invest in Modern, ii) Fear that "the broken things" twin kept in check will creep out the closet.
Pertaining to i) As was the case with Pod, so is the case with Twin. Sure some cards will lose its value but most of them have a home elsewhere. Someone who has Twin, depending on the Variant, can easily play WUR control, UW, Delver or Grixis control. I don't get the big fuss behind it. As with Pod, many people were outraged that they lost their money. Still, CoCo crept up under us and many of those cards found a home elsewhere. (even in Little Kid abzan). Are the decks tier 1? Maybe not, but the argument here is not that I paid x amount of money and hence I expect to have a tier one deck winning everything, but the argument is I paid x amount of money and my money is wasted down the drain. Evidently it's not.
One could argue that the Bloom players are "screwed" money wise since besides from Prime Time, Visions, Stirrings or what have you, the rest of the deck is flushed down the toilet. Them I could understand somewhat.
Pertaining to ii) Everything you and I say is speculation at best at this point. Maybe a new "demon" will rise maybe not. Maybe people will brew or change an archetype to combat the incoming Colorless Menace as you speak of. I am not really afraid for the rise of affinity, as Sam Black put it today "its power level is capped" meaning that it DOES fold to targetted hate, I would be more worried about Tron, which as I have advocated previously I wanted banned a while ago, which seems to require a diverse amount of hate/angles or attack. Perhaps Scapeshift will rise to dominate Tron. (Althought the NEW-LAMOG, can turn out to be problematic in that regard)That said, as it has been the case in the past, something, be it a deck, card(s), will find their way through the Modern format and things will return to a relative balance.
Also, no-one is looking at the positive side of things. Possibly many exciting new things will pop up, decks that were considered too slow, or folding to twin, random brews, whatever. Again as with i) this is mere speculation, the effect of the twin ban is unknown. However, what is conceivable, and AF in his tweet, mentioned, is that cards that are on the BL/cards which we have been discussing here but deemed too powerful if they ended up in twin are now up for grabs. Example? His comment on AV, which is up FOR DISCUSSION.
Finally, another point and my major complain against everyone who hates on the banlist and something direct at KTK: (No offence but in your Nexus article you don't discuss this).First of all, we knew, from La Pille's podcast interview that as long as Modern is a PT format, things will change, meaning people will see their decks banned. Everyone however when this was brought up by various people two months ago in this very forum, seemed very dissmisive and considered the notion that a "pillar deck" would get the axe, far-fetched. Well, I enjoy, and play almost exclusively, apart from the few Legacy and Cube games I register, only Modern. I love seeing the PROs playing Modern at the PT, and I would like that to continue. I do not know if my deck gets banned, or cards from my deck get banned in the future, I have spent over 2000$ foiling out a Tier 2 at best Modern Deck in Esper Draw-Go which has Snappys and Cryptics and all the Blue sweetness, but I am always entertaining the possibility that Snap or Cryptic or what have you could get banned, a remote possibility for the later case, but a possibility, and I invest knowingly. That is one thing that people shouldn't forget: All of you invest knowingly. So don't act all surprised when things happen. The reason you invest and play this game is because you love it. If you get frustrated by it at points, you are free to leave, but don't act all self-righteous about it. I did the same when BBE got the Axe. I up and quit Modern for a year, that's how long my frustration took. But in that time I played Legacy, or something else. But I was taught a lesson: You play a format, unlike Legacy or Vintage, in which the market value can be very volatile, and is affected, because the format is actively supported, by Competitive events.
Finally I would like to point out as food for thought, that in other games, most notably Hearthstone, the similar behavior pertaining to Bans/Netfs that Wotc has exhibited is prominent. Decks and Cards, i.e. Warrior/Commander in HS, have been nerfed because, even though they were not "Broken" as Amulet-Brokeness, they were very consistent and kept up on winning events, as with Twin. In HS, as in MTG this led many to claim: OH noes, I quit, my money, my x my y, but eventually, something else was born, or something else became the number one deck, until it will get nerfed or something will surpass it. This is the nature of Change in a dynamic format/game, in which Competition dictates change. If you don't like this concept of Change, then by all means, invest in Legacy. (and complain about the absense of GPTs/High-Caliber events).
I just want to point out... It's not speculation. Twin has ALWAYS kept linear decks in check. That's why you played Twin over control. With this update control IS dead. That is not simply speculation but the cold-hard truth.
Look at every top 8 where control was present. Multiple Twin decks were also present. There is a reason for that.
Who the **** cares if they can now unban some blue cards when (if) those decks become strong, they WILL BE BANNED.
Yeah, this is the big problem. It just opens the floodgates to anything being banned as long as its Tier 1. It also spikes ban mania to new levels. Tron and Affinity could easily be next just because they do well in Top 8s. Their overall metagame share doesn't even seem to matter to Wizards, which suggests Wizards has a significantly less nuanced view of metagames than we do as a community or as individuals. I'm not super concerned about the metagame adapting (it probably will), but I'm deeply worried about how this affects investment in the format and buying in to its top decks.
I think Wizards should be more inclined to ban based on metagame diversity NOW rather than picking out top 8s through pro tours over the years. It doesnt make sense to pull last years pro tour top 8s to compare with bannings now.
I also wanted to talk about the "blue decks" that Splinter Twin had suppressed considering that those blue decks are good at preying on Twin. Against Jeskai or Esper one of the ways to win with Twin was to use Keranos, God of Storms and Blood Moon to grind out the games, as the Twin combo is vulnerable to removal from those blue decks.
As much as I hate considering MORE bans, with this announcement I wonder if abrupt decay should also get the ax. It was necessary to keep twin in check, but now without that threat, all it does is keep any low cmc cards down. There are a lot of 3 drops that don't see play because of this card, and banning it (while maybe printing a counterable replacement) could open things up pretty well.
Edit: And now we should free DTT!
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Overall, I feel that this Twin ban is an unnecessary move. I don't really see the reason to replace the Twin share of the meta with more linear decks like bogles, infect, tron, elves, etc. I can't see how that could possible be good for the PT or the wider metagame as a whole. It's not like twin was all over every top8.
Maybe it will make more sense when we see the spring release as we saw with Pod ban into Collected Company printing last year.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Thats really it. I have a ton of weak decks, especially online, that are not T1 but 2-2.5, do I just play those because then I can skip under the radar? Is that what we really want to be playing here?
"Dont get too good with that deck, hope it doesnt get any new pieces, you may just get banned to 'shake things up'."
Thats really what we are going to have to accept as a community?
I thought they grew out of this banning pattern when they let Wild Nacatl off the ban list. That ban didn't do anything to bring variety to those type of decks in Modern (all it did was make Affnity the uncontested king of beatdown) and I anticipate that something broadly similar will end up happening after this one. Can't tell for sure how exactly at this point but my gut feeling tells me this was a bad decision on WotC part that came about simply due to the fact that Modern is a PT format.
The thing that irritates me the most about this announcement is that it brings us back to the old days of Modern B&R annual changes where nothing was sacred or sane. There is no force on Earth that can convince me that they didn't ban Splinter Twin just to make certain it didn't figure prominently at the upcoming PT. After all is said and done the one fault Twin decks had was that they were the Pro's choice. Everything else is just rationalization and denial.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
One can only assume at this point that they are afraid of it in Lantern control. They've just made changes that strengthen aggro even further so there seems to be little reason to be afraid of the thopter/sword "combo".
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
While I always thougth that twin was bannable, but it was able to hang around for too long that i thought that Wizards had accepted it as part of the format, that was a surprise.
I'm really hoping that this is a case of "can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs", i.e. they're banning Twin so that they can unban AV later. I have been against the unbanning of AV in the past on the grounds that Twin would play it, but now that Twin is gone, I say, bring it on. You want to play Goblin Dark-Dwellers to combo with AV, be my guest.
I guess #banlistlogic applies in this case, even though it's usually a terrible predictor of bans and unbans (see: SFM). Print Bounding Krasis = they're going to ban Twin. Don't forget Breaching Hippocamp.
If my memory serves me correctly the UWR draw-go decks faded out around the same time that Tempo Twin took over All-in Twin*, after Dickmann won a GP with Tempo Twin. I do think that that sequence of events was related and have argued for Twin being better than UWR draw-go in the past, because it has an instant win combo. Now that Twin is gone it's time to find out if UWR will rise to the challenge again, or if another control deck with combo wincon (Scapeshift) will take over Twin's role. Or, worst of all, if the format just degenerates into PT Philadephia 2011.
*For all you kids out there, there once was a stretch of time when Twin played Sleight of Hand and Kiki-Jiki. The goal was to combo off ASAP with Spellskite/Dispel/Mizzium Skin/Pact of Negation backup, which is nothing like the Twin of today.
Yawn. Maybe they should change the rule to "no goldfishing before turn 4"? To combo turn 2 with bloom you needed like 5 specific cards in your opening hand lmao.
As much as I hate considering MORE bans, with this announcement I wonder if abrupt decay should also get the ax. It was necessary to keep twin in check, but now without that threat, all it does is keep any low cmc cards down. There are a lot of 3 drops that don't see play because of this card, and banning it (while maybe printing a counterable replacement) could open things up pretty well.
Edit: And now we should free DTT!
answers do not get banned, in fact answers are weak compared to threats and it will not be DTT but AV that is definately getting unbanned in a couple of anouncements from now
My point is that it's an answer that very much stifles the format. And AV isn't even that good right now with all the Bx eldrazi decks running around. They can just pull it out of suspend and in to your yard like nothing.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Interestingly enough, there are some other cards that reduce diversity in their shards in ways similar to Twin. If twin can be banned for being jammed into all URx decks, what about Goyf in Gxx? Liliana in BXX? Snapcaster in Uxx?
We can probably take away the lesson that no card is safe, and any "best deck" in the format will see a ban if it holds that title for any extended period of time - no matter by how small the margin.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Twin banned... didn't see that coming. Twin didn't seem that oppressive... nor was it a turn four rule violator... it was just good. What next? Can we just play a homebrew for a few years that's a tier 8 pile of the worst cards until every other deck is banned? This ban is disgusting, coming from someone who never liked Twin, never wanted to buy into to twin. But I did think that Twin was healthy. Other top tier decks are Jund, Junk, Affinity, Merfolk, Burn, Zoo, ect. and now with twin banned, I can't find reason to play anything else. Grishoalbrand will rise, once people are playing it, it will be banned. The only good and seemingly safe combo deck is knightfall... which will be banned eventually because every other combo deck has been. Twin, Storm, amulet bloom. This was a mistake by WOTC. Amulet bloom had it coming. Twin was just, in my opinion, healthy. whats the point of playing a good deck to win if it will just get banned you win with it? This was a stupid move, whoever came up with "Twin should be banned" was high. I would say it would be fine if they unbanned Jace, ancestral visions, and some cantrips, so that control was viable. But they didn't.
I usually rolled my eyes and shook my head whenever Modern players freaked out about certain bans and claimed they were going to quit, but now I find myself joining them. My faith in the Modern format is gone and I'm gathering a lot of my cards together to liquify and turn into Legacy cards.
I would be less enraged by this if they actually unbanned some blue based cards. I far as I can tell the only blue decks now are grixis control, scapeshift and a little delver. I really dont see other blue decks filling the gap twin leaves. This just makes people way more cautious about modern as a format. People dont want expensive rotating formats.
As far as summer bloom... well I actually really like the decks and though it worked in a very unique creative way. I am sad to see it go but not remotely surprised.
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
Could they reprint/unban some sweet blue cards that were previously kept out of Modern because of Twin?
Counterspell in Shadows?
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I did my rant already in the Twin forum and I'm not even a Twin deck player. This is just idiotic. Does wizards only have this one section of time in January to ban cards or can they do it at any point of the year? With a void of sane reasoning being found in the explanation for why they banned twin, the only reason I can think of for banning it is they got something in the future design space that would basically break splinter twin if it was left in the format. I.e, something they have in R&D for Shadows over Innistrad.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I usually rolled my eyes and shook my head whenever Modern players freaked out about certain bans and claimed they were going to quit, but now I find myself joining them. My faith in the Modern format is gone and I'm gathering a lot of my cards together to liquify and turn into Legacy cards.
Good job, Wizards.
If anyone says this guy is ridiculous, remember one day your tier 3 scepter combo deck that folds to abrupt decay will be tier 1 and then you'll eat a ban. As the beheading of the kings of modern continues eventually YOUR deck WILL be next.
Banning Twin is a big mistake. Now the format will be divided among those who go big with Tron or Eldrazis, and those who go fast with random aggro or solitaire combo, with nothing viable in the middle. I hope they correct the mistake in the next announcement.
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Who is truer: you who are, or you who are to be?
Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
No Sword unban? Still? This is getting stupid. That card has been safe for a long time now, and with Twin and Grixis pushed down to tier 2, the format needs another viable control deck.
they've commented on sword, they said it makes lantern control more abnoxious than it already is, so no it's not getting unbanned it semms
Apparently whomever does these ban lists doesn't spend a single minute playing Modern.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
No Sword unban? Still? This is getting stupid. That card has been safe for a long time now, and with Twin and Grixis pushed down to tier 2, the format needs another viable control deck.
they've commented on sword, they said it makes lantern control more abnoxious than it already is, so no it's not getting unbanned it semms
Apparently whomever does these ban lists doesn't spend a single minute playing Modern.
It's because AF is a ******* joke. A not funny super racist/controversial joke that has a punchline along the lines of "put them in the oven" or "we should just hang them" and makes you sick at hearing it.
They didn't unban Sword of the Meek because it would make Lantern Control too good (help it's poor matchups)? lolololoololkololollolololoollo wait, you're serious?
I am just going to put this out there for all of you guys. The move was done not only for the Pro Tour, but to get your ass to play some Standard. Right now Standard FNMs are averaging fewer players than Modern ones. I am only a Modern player and I and 3 other Modern players (2 of them play Standard as well) were gone to the GP Oakland last week. Someone this week told me that Standard was 17 players and Modern was 40. Standard makes money and unless some of you are willing to make the sacrifice to play a *****ty format, then we will continue with preposterous bans and NO unbans. Please do what's right for others. Please.
Until then I am going to play the ***** out of Bogles; probably moving the 4 Stony Silence to the mainboard eventually. (Good against Tron...check, good against Affinity the next deck to get banned...check, good against Spellskite/Engineered Explosives...check)
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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Yeah, this is the big problem. It just opens the floodgates to anything being banned as long as its Tier 1. It also spikes ban mania to new levels. Tron and Affinity could easily be next just because they do well in Top 8s. Their overall metagame share doesn't even seem to matter to Wizards, which suggests Wizards has a significantly less nuanced view of metagames than we do as a community or as individuals. I'm not super concerned about the metagame adapting (it probably will), but I'm deeply worried about how this affects investment in the format and buying in to its top decks.
I just want to point out... It's not speculation. Twin has ALWAYS kept linear decks in check. That's why you played Twin over control. With this update control IS dead. That is not simply speculation but the cold-hard truth.
Look at every top 8 where control was present. Multiple Twin decks were also present. There is a reason for that.
I think Wizards should be more inclined to ban based on metagame diversity NOW rather than picking out top 8s through pro tours over the years. It doesnt make sense to pull last years pro tour top 8s to compare with bannings now.
I also wanted to talk about the "blue decks" that Splinter Twin had suppressed considering that those blue decks are good at preying on Twin. Against Jeskai or Esper one of the ways to win with Twin was to use Keranos, God of Storms and Blood Moon to grind out the games, as the Twin combo is vulnerable to removal from those blue decks.
Edit: And now we should free DTT!
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Maybe it will make more sense when we see the spring release as we saw with Pod ban into Collected Company printing last year.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
"Dont get too good with that deck, hope it doesnt get any new pieces, you may just get banned to 'shake things up'."
Thats really what we are going to have to accept as a community?
Spirits
The thing that irritates me the most about this announcement is that it brings us back to the old days of Modern B&R annual changes where nothing was sacred or sane. There is no force on Earth that can convince me that they didn't ban Splinter Twin just to make certain it didn't figure prominently at the upcoming PT. After all is said and done the one fault Twin decks had was that they were the Pro's choice. Everything else is just rationalization and denial.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Still no unban is sad.
I guess #banlistlogic applies in this case, even though it's usually a terrible predictor of bans and unbans (see: SFM). Print Bounding Krasis = they're going to ban Twin. Don't forget Breaching Hippocamp.
If my memory serves me correctly the UWR draw-go decks faded out around the same time that Tempo Twin took over All-in Twin*, after Dickmann won a GP with Tempo Twin. I do think that that sequence of events was related and have argued for Twin being better than UWR draw-go in the past, because it has an instant win combo. Now that Twin is gone it's time to find out if UWR will rise to the challenge again, or if another control deck with combo wincon (Scapeshift) will take over Twin's role. Or, worst of all, if the format just degenerates into PT Philadephia 2011.
*For all you kids out there, there once was a stretch of time when Twin played Sleight of Hand and Kiki-Jiki. The goal was to combo off ASAP with Spellskite/Dispel/Mizzium Skin/Pact of Negation backup, which is nothing like the Twin of today.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
My point is that it's an answer that very much stifles the format. And AV isn't even that good right now with all the Bx eldrazi decks running around. They can just pull it out of suspend and in to your yard like nothing.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
We can probably take away the lesson that no card is safe, and any "best deck" in the format will see a ban if it holds that title for any extended period of time - no matter by how small the margin.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
FREE SPLINTER TWIN
Good job, Wizards.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Current Modern Banlist Discussion (1/18/2016 update - Nirvana's Twin Bloom)
As far as summer bloom... well I actually really like the decks and though it worked in a very unique creative way. I am sad to see it go but not remotely surprised.
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
Counterspell in Shadows?
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If anyone says this guy is ridiculous, remember one day your tier 3 scepter combo deck that folds to abrupt decay will be tier 1 and then you'll eat a ban. As the beheading of the kings of modern continues eventually YOUR deck WILL be next.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Apparently whomever does these ban lists doesn't spend a single minute playing Modern.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
It's because AF is a ******* joke. A not funny super racist/controversial joke that has a punchline along the lines of "put them in the oven" or "we should just hang them" and makes you sick at hearing it.
I am just going to put this out there for all of you guys. The move was done not only for the Pro Tour, but to get your ass to play some Standard. Right now Standard FNMs are averaging fewer players than Modern ones. I am only a Modern player and I and 3 other Modern players (2 of them play Standard as well) were gone to the GP Oakland last week. Someone this week told me that Standard was 17 players and Modern was 40. Standard makes money and unless some of you are willing to make the sacrifice to play a *****ty format, then we will continue with preposterous bans and NO unbans. Please do what's right for others. Please.
Until then I am going to play the ***** out of Bogles; probably moving the 4 Stony Silence to the mainboard eventually. (Good against Tron...check, good against Affinity the next deck to get banned...check, good against Spellskite/Engineered Explosives...check)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)