As moderators we know that the Twin/Bloom ban is causing a huge uproar right now. That being said, between Banned thread and How do you feel about the politics behind the twin ban threads, we've got most of the bases covered. This thread will be used to talk about the Modern Meta, and cards ONLY. Please follow these rules:
1. Be kind. Alot of people lost their decks, which is like losing a home team. Its hard for them. Do not spam or troll, or you will be infracted.
2. Keep the talk on the actual cards and meta of the format, not the politics. How do you feel about the politics behind the twin ban Thread is for that.
3. Do not talk about potential bans because of this. Banned thread is for that.
4. These are the only threads aside from the twin and bloom threads to talk about these subjects. Its big news, but rules are still rules.
The format has lot one of the most interactive decks that had a good matchup vs non interactive decks.
We will see the format shift more towards non interactivity. More decks will play past each other and either try to go under their opponent and be faster or go over them and be over the top.
The big mana decks will go over top of their opponents while the aggro decks and non interactive combo will try to simply be faster and ignore what the opponent is doing.
Edit: I also imagine it becomes more boring to watch because of this. The Pro Tour will probably be highly watched as people want to see if the pros can create a new deck or just the meta in general. If my prediction is true I think it will long term be a detriment to the format as people realize its just boring to watch two people play solitaire and see who wins first.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Play Scapeshift, you have an excellent Eldrazi matchup and you can probably also do well against Tron.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Play Scapeshift, you have an excellent Eldrazi matchup and you can probably also do well against Tron.
Does Scapeshift have a favorable matchup against Eldrazi or Tron? They tend to play a longer game which seems like a death sentence against both decks since payoffs like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger still do a number even if countered or remanded.
Is Delver poised for a resurgence? Assuming the new meta is Affinity and Tron dominated, isn't Delver good against both?
Twin and Jund made Delver bad but now Twin is dead and Jund presumably declines, anyone else think it's the right time to play a tempo deck?
RUG Delver could be decent. You have a clock in Goyf/Delver, burn for finishing games out and interaction in Remand/Leak/Snare to slow down aggro/combo.
Also, I've noticed a lot of people saying "Brews can come out of the woodwork now that Twin is gone."
Twin isn't what was keeping them at bay. It was dying to Turn 3 Karn, 10 poison damage on turn 3, Burn counting to 20, Arcbound Ravager equipped with plating that keeps them at bay. This isn't going to encourage brewing, in fact I say its going to discourage it. I hope you like Tron vs. Aggro because that's what the PT is going to be.
I think the best call for the new metagame is to just play Tron and pack a lot of anti-aggro cards.
Now that the main 'control/combo/blood moon' deck is gone. The meta is going to flood with greedy mana bases and lots of less interactive ramp like tron and eldrazi.
If I was going to play any deck I'd go for a fast blood moon deck. Griselshoal didn't get banned, can win before the big mana decks do anything, can blood moon you on turn 1-2 and can play 4 leylines in the board (no need for pact of negation anymore). No wonder Goryo's Vengeance has shot up in price suddenly.
Play Scapeshift, you have an excellent Eldrazi matchup and you can probably also do well against Tron.
Does Scapeshift have a favorable matchup against Eldrazi or Tron? They tend to play a longer game which seems like a death sentence against both decks since payoffs like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger still do a number even if countered or remanded.
I'm not sure about Scapeshift vs. Eldrazi post-board, but pre-board, I think Scapeshift is slightly favoured against Eldrazi Black (well, pre-OGW) and more favoured against RG Tron (though no longer hugely favoured as of BFZ). Eldrazi Black plays a little too much like Jund (which Scapeshift is more favoured against), and RG Tron faces an uphill battle if it can't stick Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.
I suspect Thought-Knot Seer pushes the Scapeshift matchup to even for Eldrazi Black, though. Luckily, RG Tron cannot support multiple TKS's pre-board because its hyper aggro matchups suck too much. Unfortunately, RG Tron will likely maindeck and/or sideboard Warping Wail, and double TKS post-board has been testing excellently for me as RG Tron against combo.
The post-board Scapeshift vs. RG Tron match-up might even be unfavourable for Scapeshift...uh oh...(well, I board in Slaughter Games as added insult to injury...)
I don't think Jund, Abzan or Tron will be able to hang in this meta - it's just too linear and fast. I'm not sure about Bx Eldrazi, but OGW has a number of cards which help it curve out much faster. Lots of moving parts here, but I don't see anything holding Bogles or Infect back now that the premiere combo + bolt-snap-bolt deck is gone.
Seems to me that Infect might be the biggest winner here, and maybe Bogles.
I see lots of people concerned that Tron will become even more prevalent (it already is near the top). With the format moving to linear decks, it seems like Tron's best punching bag (jund) won't be around for Tron to kick around; and the same linear decks taking Jund down have positive Tron matchups.
Is there a flaw in this thinking? My understanding is that tron has poor Infect, Burn, grishoalbrand and Affinity matchups, which leaves it poorly positioned against all the linear decks that had mediocre or poor twin matchups.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I see lots of people concerned that Tron will become even more prevalent (it already is near the top). With the format moving to linear decks, it seems like Tron's best punching bag (jund) won't be around for Tron to kick around; and the same linear decks taking Jund down have positive Tron matchups.
Is there a flaw in this thinking? My understanding is that tron has poor Infect, Burn, grishoalbrand and Affinity matchups, which leaves it poorly positioned against all the linear decks that had mediocre or poor twin matchups.
Tron devotes 2/3rds of its sb for Twin. Without Twin, it can play an anti-aggro sb pretty effectively. It'll probably be bad g1 against infect, but I wouldn't be shocked if it could manage to be favored against aggro in post-board games.
The obvious winners are Infect, Affinity, Tron, and Bx Eldrazi. The question to me is what is good against these decks, or at least most of these decks? What other decks are going to round out tier one in modern. I don't think Jund, Junk, or Grixis have the speed to really keep up with both Infect and Affinity, while also being able to hate on the big mana lands.
grixisbrand and grishoalbrand got so much better with twin gone since they no longer have to deal with maindeck dispel and control aspects hindering the deck. I wouldn't be surprised if ya see an uptick in grisselbrand decks since they are really good against tron based decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
See, I could see a RUG deck with some ramp like hierarch or lotus cobra that still packs kiki-jiki for a combo win. Tempo and ramp early with cobras and goyf, you could still combo win turn four. Sort of how rug twin won before.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
One thing I can say for sure, with a reasonable amount of confidence here, is that Bloodmoon x4 is a fantastic start to cracking the meta. Assuming Twin is essentially dead (I have my reservations, I still think the deck is still completely viable), the only other major deck that isn't fazed is burn (skred red doesnt count lol). Tron, the Eldrazi decks, jund, zoo, b/w tokens, infect, affinty, I could go on. Bloodmoon is going to be crazy good.
One thing I can say for sure, with a reasonable amount of confidence here, is that Bloodmoon x4 is a fantastic start to cracking the meta. Assuming Twin is essentially dead (I have my reservations, I still think the deck is still completely viable), the only other major deck that isn't fazed is burn (skred red doesnt count lol). Tron, the Eldrazi decks, jund, zoo, b/w tokens, infect, affinty, I could go on. Bloodmoon is going to be crazy good.
Affinity has Blood Moon in its sideboard reasonably often, so Blood Moon is definitely not at its hottest against them.
One thing I can say for sure, with a reasonable amount of confidence here, is that Bloodmoon x4 is a fantastic start to cracking the meta. Assuming Twin is essentially dead (I have my reservations, I still think the deck is still completely viable), the only other major deck that isn't fazed is burn (skred red doesnt count lol). Tron, the Eldrazi decks, jund, zoo, b/w tokens, infect, affinty, I could go on. Bloodmoon is going to be crazy good.
I mostly disagree with that analysis.
Decks Blood Moon is good against:
Tron
Bx Eldrazi (Not game-winning, needs fast clock in combination with blood moon)
Jund (Likely going to drop out of tier 1, so not too relevant)
Decks that can ignore Blood Moon:
Zoo (Plays blood moon in the sideboard, has 4 basics + 5ish mana dorks, etc)
Affinity (seriously?... the deck universally boards blood moon itself, and can kill you by turn 3, utterly useless here)
Infect (Can kill you turn 2. Easily kill by turn 3, can easily fetch basics to play around blood moon, also runs 4 dorks to mana-fix)
Decks I'm not sure about:
BW Tokens (Plays at least 4 basics, and 4 fetches. Might not play around maindecked blood moons game 1?)
Mainboarded Blood Moon are not as good as you think. If you accelerate them out turn 2 with Simian Spirit Guide they can definitely catch your opponent off-guard, but then you run into the consistency issues of top-decking SSGs later in the game.
I'm actually like, less excited for the Pro Tour. It seems like it's just gonna be piles of linear thrown at each other & sideboard cards roulette.
That said, what maindeck cards can Tron or BG Eldrazi play to combat Burn/Affinity/Infect?
Some lists were already playing Spellskite main for Twin, but he's also great vs. Infect if they're not packing Twisted Image.
Has anyone mentioned Merfolk? Do they fold to the first Wurmcoil or Ostone/Pyroclasm?
I'm actually like, less excited for the Pro Tour. It seems like it's just gonna be piles of linear thrown at each other & sideboard cards roulette.
That said, what maindeck cards can Tron or BG Eldrazi play to combat Burn/Affinity/Infect?
Some lists were already playing Spellskite main for Twin, but he's also great vs. Infect if they're not packing Twisted Image.
Has anyone mentioned Merfolk? Do they fold to the first Wurmcoil or Ostone/Pyroclasm?
While I don't own Merfolk, and could be VERY wrong as I haven't gotten to play it much, in my Tron-infested meta (15/28 at last modern FNM), the deck does tend to fold to the first O-Stone. Wurmcoil you can occasionally beat past, and sometimes you've got enough lords out to make Pyroclasm irrelevant. Then again, there are just as many times Pyroclasm or Wurmcoil shut you down cold.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks WUBEsper ControlBUW URStormRU RGForest BelcherGR
To-Do List WModern Death and TaxesW WLegacy Death and TaxesW
I dont see why a Twin-less meta wouldnt just be Burn/Infect/Goryo/Zoo and win before anyone else can get Tron online.
Without the deck that slows people down, just jam your cards thoughtlessly and swing.
In my humble opinion, the format will devolve into Tron/Heartless Eldrazi or Bx Eldrazi on the top-end, and Affinity/Burn/Infect/Grishoalbanned on the bottom end. There is no room in modern anymore for midrange. I literally don't know if Naya Company is even fast enough to remain a relevant part of the meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks
Modern -
GWU Eldrazi
GU Infect
GWUR Knightfall
GWB Company
WG Death & Taxes
GWR Company
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1. Be kind. Alot of people lost their decks, which is like losing a home team. Its hard for them. Do not spam or troll, or you will be infracted.
2. Keep the talk on the actual cards and meta of the format, not the politics. How do you feel about the politics behind the twin ban Thread is for that.
3. Do not talk about potential bans because of this. Banned thread is for that.
4. These are the only threads aside from the twin and bloom threads to talk about these subjects. Its big news, but rules are still rules.
We will see the format shift more towards non interactivity. More decks will play past each other and either try to go under their opponent and be faster or go over them and be over the top.
The big mana decks will go over top of their opponents while the aggro decks and non interactive combo will try to simply be faster and ignore what the opponent is doing.
Edit: I also imagine it becomes more boring to watch because of this. The Pro Tour will probably be highly watched as people want to see if the pros can create a new deck or just the meta in general. If my prediction is true I think it will long term be a detriment to the format as people realize its just boring to watch two people play solitaire and see who wins first.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Does Scapeshift have a favorable matchup against Eldrazi or Tron? They tend to play a longer game which seems like a death sentence against both decks since payoffs like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger still do a number even if countered or remanded.
RUG Delver could be decent. You have a clock in Goyf/Delver, burn for finishing games out and interaction in Remand/Leak/Snare to slow down aggro/combo.
In my experience the Tron matchup was miserable for Delver
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Twin isn't what was keeping them at bay. It was dying to Turn 3 Karn, 10 poison damage on turn 3, Burn counting to 20, Arcbound Ravager equipped with plating that keeps them at bay. This isn't going to encourage brewing, in fact I say its going to discourage it. I hope you like Tron vs. Aggro because that's what the PT is going to be.
I think the best call for the new metagame is to just play Tron and pack a lot of anti-aggro cards.
You are dead wrong, Twin was Delver's best metchup, Jund is 50/50, Affinity slightly favored and Tron very unfavored (Grixis Delver).
If I was going to play any deck I'd go for a fast blood moon deck. Griselshoal didn't get banned, can win before the big mana decks do anything, can blood moon you on turn 1-2 and can play 4 leylines in the board (no need for pact of negation anymore). No wonder Goryo's Vengeance has shot up in price suddenly.
I'm not sure about Scapeshift vs. Eldrazi post-board, but pre-board, I think Scapeshift is slightly favoured against Eldrazi Black (well, pre-OGW) and more favoured against RG Tron (though no longer hugely favoured as of BFZ). Eldrazi Black plays a little too much like Jund (which Scapeshift is more favoured against), and RG Tron faces an uphill battle if it can't stick Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.
I suspect Thought-Knot Seer pushes the Scapeshift matchup to even for Eldrazi Black, though. Luckily, RG Tron cannot support multiple TKS's pre-board because its hyper aggro matchups suck too much. Unfortunately, RG Tron will likely maindeck and/or sideboard Warping Wail, and double TKS post-board has been testing excellently for me as RG Tron against combo.
The post-board Scapeshift vs. RG Tron match-up might even be unfavourable for Scapeshift...uh oh...(well, I board in Slaughter Games as added insult to injury...)
Tier 1:
Affinity
Burn
Infect
Bogles
Bx Eldrazi
Grishoalbrand
UWx Control
I don't think Jund, Abzan or Tron will be able to hang in this meta - it's just too linear and fast. I'm not sure about Bx Eldrazi, but OGW has a number of cards which help it curve out much faster. Lots of moving parts here, but I don't see anything holding Bogles or Infect back now that the premiere combo + bolt-snap-bolt deck is gone.
Seems to me that Infect might be the biggest winner here, and maybe Bogles.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Is there a flaw in this thinking? My understanding is that tron has poor Infect, Burn, grishoalbrand and Affinity matchups, which leaves it poorly positioned against all the linear decks that had mediocre or poor twin matchups.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Tron devotes 2/3rds of its sb for Twin. Without Twin, it can play an anti-aggro sb pretty effectively. It'll probably be bad g1 against infect, but I wouldn't be shocked if it could manage to be favored against aggro in post-board games.
Not having to dedicate any slots to twin while having to account for all the new popular decks is going to be interesting to see.
I really hate that twin has been banned but it's certainly made the modern pro tour very exciting.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Affinity has Blood Moon in its sideboard reasonably often, so Blood Moon is definitely not at its hottest against them.
I mostly disagree with that analysis.
Decks Blood Moon is good against:
Tron
Bx Eldrazi (Not game-winning, needs fast clock in combination with blood moon)
Jund (Likely going to drop out of tier 1, so not too relevant)
Decks that can ignore Blood Moon:
Zoo (Plays blood moon in the sideboard, has 4 basics + 5ish mana dorks, etc)
Affinity (seriously?... the deck universally boards blood moon itself, and can kill you by turn 3, utterly useless here)
Infect (Can kill you turn 2. Easily kill by turn 3, can easily fetch basics to play around blood moon, also runs 4 dorks to mana-fix)
Decks I'm not sure about:
BW Tokens (Plays at least 4 basics, and 4 fetches. Might not play around maindecked blood moons game 1?)
Mainboarded Blood Moon are not as good as you think. If you accelerate them out turn 2 with Simian Spirit Guide they can definitely catch your opponent off-guard, but then you run into the consistency issues of top-decking SSGs later in the game.
Modern -
That said, what maindeck cards can Tron or BG Eldrazi play to combat Burn/Affinity/Infect?
Some lists were already playing Spellskite main for Twin, but he's also great vs. Infect if they're not packing Twisted Image.
Has anyone mentioned Merfolk? Do they fold to the first Wurmcoil or Ostone/Pyroclasm?
While I don't own Merfolk, and could be VERY wrong as I haven't gotten to play it much, in my Tron-infested meta (15/28 at last modern FNM), the deck does tend to fold to the first O-Stone. Wurmcoil you can occasionally beat past, and sometimes you've got enough lords out to make Pyroclasm irrelevant. Then again, there are just as many times Pyroclasm or Wurmcoil shut you down cold.
WUBEsper ControlBUW
URStormRU
RGForest BelcherGR
To-Do List
WModern Death and TaxesW
WLegacy Death and TaxesW
Without the deck that slows people down, just jam your cards thoughtlessly and swing.
Spirits
In my humble opinion, the format will devolve into Tron/Heartless Eldrazi or Bx Eldrazi on the top-end, and Affinity/Burn/Infect/Grishoalbanned on the bottom end. There is no room in modern anymore for midrange. I literally don't know if Naya Company is even fast enough to remain a relevant part of the meta.
Modern -