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What cards do you think should be banned or unbanned in Modern in the next announcement? (4/4/16 update)
Poll: What cards do you think should be BANNED?
Ended Apr 2, 2016
Poll: What cards do you think should be UNBANNED?
Ended Apr 2, 2016
When it comes off suspend, it is is cast for free. At that point it can be countered like any other spell. I will Remand Lotus Bloom all day to buy time against Ad Nauseam.
Edit: sorry, my wording was a bit off. I should have said "successfully suspend" meaning you have both the card and a blue source in your opening hand.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Which is why it should be fine to unban, right?
Currently trying to discover the quickest way to get the opponent from 20 to 0.
My ideal meta is where the average game does not end before turn 4 and both players actually have time to play magic. Don't get me wrong, that wasn't always my viewpoint, after spending most of my Modern play experience piloting Dredgevine, Affinity, Burn, etc. I liked that aspect of the format, but it inadvertently skewed my perspective on things, I only found that out after playing control, and to a larger extent playing mid range decks as well. It was after doing this that I saw just how flawed the format is, and it really made me agree to a somewhat large extent the pro's criticism that Modern is just a format where if you draw your sideboard card you win, if not you lose. Why do you think at the last pro-tour you saw so many pros just defaulting to coin flip linear decks like infect and such, because why bother trying to outskill your opponents when you can and will just lose to RNG by not drawing your sideboard tech that you need just to stay alive.
If there are players here who have only been piloting Aggro or Combo decks, I recommend branching out and trying other decks, you might be surprised that it gives you enlightening perspective on the matter. Also to further talk about the banning wishlists, its not that I want all of the decks I mentioned to be dead and gone, I just think some of the decks need to be slower to allow for a more diverse metagame.
Burn can easily afford to lose Atarka's or Skullcrack
Infect can afford to lose one of it's infect creatures
etc.
Though some decks in my opinion will need to be outright banned out of the format, obviously Eldrazi being the biggest one, we have never seen a deck warp the format as badly as this deck has in the entire history of the format. Goryo's will need to be killed off since the deck just kills on turn 2-3 which directly breaks the stated goals of the format. And tron, though it is not very obvious now, will become more obvious in time when you see mid range or even control players trying to go against tron and getting completely destroyed with ease, though if eye does get banned then perhaps that MIGHT be enough to make it pallet able though Ugin seems to be the major culprit for the deck currently.
and if the format slows down due of a lack of those unfun super fast decks than decks like lantern and tron ect pop up and make it unfun in an other way.
modern right now is basically: Leave modern alone and accept it for what it is or expect to be playing wackamole ban every year because something else broken will just "pop up"
"putting plugs in the ship isnt going to solve the problem long term" the ship needs to be rebuilt. That is the problem with modern
another option is better answers which seems to be the only logical explanation right now. problem is, how do these powerful answers enter modern through standard? .
answer: wizards needs to print there cards with standard AND modern in mind. how? raise the power level of standard a bit.
just my 2 cents.
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This seems like personal bias. I have never heard anyone say that Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is the major culprit for GR Tron. I've heard Eye of Ugin, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Tron lands, but never planeswalker Ugin. Please correct me if I misunderstood your post.
I hate Burn. I hate Infect. These are super quick, non-interactive decks. But they do not need anything banned at this moment. Not remotely. By the way, Skullcrack and Atarka's Command are decent answers to Grishoalbrand.
I think the point some others are trying to make is that more Midrange and Control is not everyone's idea of a better Modern. I personally wish Combo was stronger, then secondarily Control. But not everyone feels the same way. So, to neuter super quick Aggro and Combo, despite being a wonderful idea for many here, is not everyone's idea of a "better Modern." We'll see how Wizards feels about it...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I fundamentally disagree with your post. Firstly, the fact that skullcrack or atarka's command is good vs grishoalbrand is irrelevant since grishoalbrand is a deck that should be banned anyways since it breaks the turn 4 rule. And sure, it might not look like burn or infect and the biggest villains in the world right now, but thats because for the past couple months all of the data has been completely useless since eldrazi have been wrecking all of the tournaments, none of the data available to us today matters in the slightest, only AFTER eldrazi are gone will we see something resembling good date.
Though we already saw leading up to the Twin ban what was happening in the metagame, linear decks were on the rise and weren't slowing down a bit even with Twin in the format so we know this isn't a new problem.
You say you want combo to be better? In what way? Combo is already top tier depending on how you define it, whether its Goryos or otherwise, aggro decks have never been better in the format then they are now, and its suffocating, theres no variety in the format at all. Its either some stupid aggro deck that kills you before turn 4 or a combo deck that does the same, I think we should strive for a more diverse metagame where more archetypes are viable. Overall, you simply cannot say with a straight face that mid range is an overall viable archetype, you might cite Abzan Coco, but that isn't a mid range deck, its a combo deck, I say this because without the combo aspect, no one would even play that deck and it would have no game against eldrazi. And what about control archetypes? Where are those? No where even on the radar.
The point is this format needs to be massively and overwhelmingly be overhauled, and the only way to do it properly is to ban a LOT of cards all at once to solve a whole host of structural problems. Unbans could certainly help a bit, SFM is probably the best candidate for unbanning since it would help the metagame in the exact ways that we need, and since its already been set up as the GP promo, the price won't explode nearly as much as what would happen with say an AV unban etc. But make no mistake, when infect and burn are winning games on turn 3, or even turn 2 in the case of infect, Wotc can't ignore it forever, they will eventually have to nerf the decks, they might as well just rip the band-aid off and do it sooner rather than later, and as far as I'm concerned, it couldn't come fast enough.
We need archetype diversity in Modern, right now we do not have it, pre-eldrazi we still did not have it.
I will once again say that Grishoalbrand has yet to do anything relevant to deserve a ban. The Turn 4 Rule has been pretty consistent in its definition which Grishoalbrand does not fully meet.
1. The violating deck must be winning “on turn three (or earlier)“ - The Grishoalbrand deck CAN do this
2. The violating deck must be achieving these wins “consistently/frequently“ - This portion is debatable. Grishoalbrand is very much a glass-cannon deck that can be interrupted (SB cards such as Leylines, pithing needle) and can fizzle out while attempting to combo. I haven't seen any numbers on how often the deck does win before T4 in ACTUAL games, not just goldfishing and until I do, I will err on the side of caution. The generally accepted numbers for meeting this requirement is 24-30% win rate before Turn 4.
3. The violating deck must be “top-tier“- Grishoalbrand definitely DOES NOT meet this criteria. All varieties of Griselbrand are an estimated 1.3% of the meta game and only making up 1.7% of Day 2 metas at bigger events (source).
Can it be banned? Sure, anything is possible. Should it? I'd vehemently argue no, not at this time. If it starts putting up Bloom like numbers, then we can start having a legitimate conversation about it. Banning Goryo's Vengeance at this point would be like banning Ad Nauseam just because.
*edited for clarity*
A Combo deck needs to be banned because it can possibly win before turn 4? This is not the way that Wizards works. If a Combo deck wins after turn 4, what's the point in playing it when Affinity, Infect, and Burn can win by turn 4 or earlier? What's the use of playing turn 5 Combo when Jund can win by turn 5, while playing disruption? My point is that not every deck has to win on the same turn.
In what ways do I wish Combo was better? Firstly, Grishoalbrand is a Tier 2 deck at best. Jund has had better results in the past 6 months than Grishoalbrand. Do you honestly mean to tell me that competitively you'd rather take Grishoalbrand to a GPT over Jund? I wish that Summer Bloom was not banned. That deck did not need to be banned. It was a very elegant deck that hit at different angles that no other deck did.
You said that I can't say that Midrange is viable with a straight face? It's much easier to say that Midrange has been much more viable than Combo ever since late 2011. I can even cite times when Deathrite Shaman pushed it over the edge. You must have looooved those times? (with BG Deathrite Shaman/Tectonic Edge and Ajundi)
Right now is an aberration. Eldrazi is clearly Tier 0 and is not going to be around soon. Yes, that Aggro deck will be gone. Then we will be back to an all-Aggro metagame, but one where nothing is clearly Tier 0. Midrange decks historically eat up Aggro, so I doubt Jund players are going to be super sad in this meta.
You must hate Eggs and Storm as well. These types of decks can also win on turn 3. Without disruption, they win on turn 3 probably more often than Grishoalbrand, which is less hurt by disruption.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)You say that Mid range has had a better track record then combo in this format but 2/5 pro tour wins by Twin say otherwise. Also we need to move past this notion that Jund/Junk is the only mid range deck that is allowed to exist, they are simply the best right now, and for the most part are essentially the same deck since they both use the same core of card (lily, Gofy, etc). And the fact that you didn't want Bloom banned because the deck attacked on a unique angle further proves my point that although our archetype diversity is complete garbage, our deck diversity is almost too good, there are simply too many angles to cover with any reasonable consistency. This isn't as big of a deal if your just playing some solitaire linear deck where you don't overly care what your opponent is doing anyway, but when your playing fair decks this is the one irreconcilable issue that continually pops up, we need to make the best linear decks in the format weaker overall so that people lean on sideboard cards less and less and have more time within a given game to even draw their sideboard cards in the first place, the only way to do this is to slow the format down, whether this is done by banning certain cards or unbanning others I really don't care. But in my opinion without outright banning of certain cards, no amount of unbannings will fix the issues that this format has.
once gain it is the combination of these degenerate strategies for the most part is what makes modern an un interactive format.
how do we fix it? read my comment above....
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agreed! this format needs to slow down a turn. no turn 2 wins allowed at all is my proposition, no matter how silly the bans, we need to set a bar.
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First, I struggle to think of a more effective way to completely torpedo the format.
Second, this sounds suspiciously like a violation of the thread's rules about not discussing banning multiple cards. It's wildly unprecedented, totally unsupported by anything Wizards has said or done, and effectively amounts to spam.Nevermind. We're in a lawless satellite of the banlist thread.
Right now the competitive scene for modern is kind of a joke. When the only deck that works is aggro and the few others that exist are fringe, all because there are too many tools to enable fast kills, you end up with a format like this. It's not even about eldrazi anymore. Even if we took away eldrazi the format was already going heavily aggro even on the FNM level.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
No other format operates that way. There are turn one kills in Legacy and Vintage, and turn three kills in Standard. They just aren't very likely, given the internal strength of the win-condition and the external context of the format. Modern is the same way. We don't need to ban Assault Strobe and Immolating Souleater because players are too black-and-white to realize a rule like the "turn four rule" needs some degree of discretion. Quick kills are banned if they are consistent and top-tier. Your Fling and Wall of Blood deck is neither, so we aren't banning one of those two pieces just to categorically enforce a rule in the strictest sense of its terms. That's ridiculous and would lead to FAR more issues than the ambiguities around the turn four rule would.
I agree Modern is too fast and has too many high variance matchups and decks. The solution is not more bans. The solution is better generic answers and more unbans to encourage and reward the decks playing those generic answers. I also don't think we need a "solution" to this right now, because there are no turn four rule violators right now. The closest is Grishoalbrand, but we really have no idea how this deck performs in a Twinless, post-Eldrazi world.
I can't argue the first point. Wizards did ban Summer Bloom, so there's really nothing else I can do.
Living End is not Tier 1. Living End may be decent in this Eldrazi meta because it does well vs. creature decks (and this is the whole meta), but UW Eldrazi with 4 RIP has better game vs. them. Living End will be back down to Tier 2-3 when Eldrazi "rotates," despite most of the rest of the meta still being creature decks. Infect is not really Combo to me. Maybe pumping creatures and attacking with those creatures is Combo. Wizard's definition probably fits this. LSV agrees with you. I personally HATE playing Infect. Abzan Company has a Combo in it. The way the games play out usually don't vibe with this. In a more non-interactive metagame, of course Abzan players are going to jam the combo, but against something like Burn, they'll just gain some life and swing with some creatures - hardly very combo-like. Against something like Infect, they'll Chord for Melira on turn 3-4 and then swing with some creatures. Affinity is Combo? The main reason people think Affinity is "combo" is that it has high impact cards and really tough decisions; the kind that some people don't attribute to playing Aggro. But guess what? Some Aggro can be tough to play. It's not all 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop, are you dead?
Twin has combo, but the games don't always play out like that. If you look at Twin and Jund ever since Modern started, Jund has been better much more often. It simply has more results, which is part of the reason that it has had bannings while Twin took quite a while to have something hit. But I agree with you that Twin was the "poster boy" for how Wizards wanted Combo to be in Modern. It can win on turn 4 - no sooner, and it has a winning sub game as well.
But I get it. I have played UW Control in many shapes and forms in many formats against Jund. I have loved these 50/50 battles. They were very fun. We definitely do need more of this. I don't want an all Aggro format, especially when someone is going to call some of those decks, "Combo." I don't want any extremes. Before the Twin/Bloom banning, the meta was VERY diverse in my opinion. There were SO many options and nothing was overbearing (except I guess post ban everyone can jump on the bandwagon and say that Twin and Bloom won every tournament). I felt like that was a good format. It could have had more Control. I have been one of those who have fought for Control to be viable. I personally think Counterspell is fine, along with many other controversial things.
*To me, a "Combo" format is like when UR Storm was THE deck in Extended for a few months. I went to an Extended PTQ where I was 2-2 vs. the mirror (UR Storm) and 4-0 vs. other decks. I finished out of the top 8 that day simply because I won 50% of the die rolls (every single match went to 3 games with the player playing first winning). That is the definition of a Combo meta. Right now, we barely have any true Combo decks. We just have creatures and turning them sideways. It's perfect for anyone learning Magic.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I like these ideas but they seem just as mystical as my idea to nerf all tier 1+2 turn 2 decks..
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On the unban side, AV is a good start to incentivizing and rewarding interactive decks. I expect we see it in July if blue decks stay at their current (i.e. their pre-Eldrazi, post-Twin) share. As for new cards that go through Standard, I'm sure R&D can figure it out. Just put limits on cards that make them worse in Standard and better in non-rotating formats. For example:
Not Horribly Awry 2UU
Instant
Land Delve (Each land card you exile from your graveyard while casting this spell pays for 1.)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost four or less.
R&D can screw around with the templating, power, keywords, etc. The idea is to design a card that does what Modern needs it to do but doesn't function that way in Standard. With no fetchlands, this card couldn't trigger until at earliest turn three off Evolving Wilds. And again, although I'm sure we can come up with Standard scenarios where this is too good, I'm not a designer! I'm sure the actual designers could figure this out if they had a clear mission to make a Modern playable counterspell that didn't break Standard.
I guess my issue with this idea is WILL wizards put time in and engineer standard/modern cards to help modern. I hope so because honestly other than an av unban, and your "print answer card" suggestions, I only see slowing this format down as the final option ( at least the top decks, tier 1 and 2)
point is: SOMETHING has to be done this year. and im very much wishing it happens soon.
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I don't think this is a bad thing. Tron could stand to lose some of its inevitability against slow midrange and control decks.
Also as LEH pointed out, there are more tools for Tron to use such as Ugin and the new Eldrazi threats.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Eldrazi Temple and Eldrazi Mimic gets banned.
Ancestral Vision gets unbanned.
What I think will happen:
Eye of Ugin gets banned.
Nothing gets unbanned.
The former is just my opinion and the later is my prediction. Neither are objective facts.
I personally took their statement during the GP that they would only ban one of the lands at most, since they didn't want to kill the deck (reminder it's my personal assumption, not a fact). The real issue is the explosive starts of Mimics at the start of games that has to be addressed, even if it's not a 100% occurrence (same way Bloom doesn't always T2 Titan). Removing Eye does solve the solution, but personally I doubt it slows it down that much better for the slower match-ups, since Temples can be stacked and Vesuva can copy temples. It will be slower for sure, but I'm just doubting its slow enough.
So the problem is simply Mimic. So all we have to remove it to prevent turn 1 Mimic Rushes and remove Temple so that the deck can't stack Sol Lands turn after turn and Vesuva copying Eye is pointless. Yes, turn 1 multiple Endless Ones is still possible, but honestly if that it all they can do, I don't feel that's broken in any way (Affinity almost does the same thing anyway).
As for Visions, I just think they almost definitely won't release more than 1 card for this announcement (if they even do, that is), but considering they said they banned Twin to see diversity in the UR decks, I'd say they release a tool to assist them to support their point. (Which is why I think Visions is better choice than Sword of the Meek and Bloodbraid Elf at the moment. Also, Splinter Twin's not getting off the list it just got on so quickly, let's face it.)
Not sure about this one, I think at best it would be borderline playable as a 1 or 2 of, especially when Tron will be a thing again I don't think that people would play this instead of Mana Leak or Remand.
And if you are already uncertain that this card which probably isn't even good enough might be too good for Standard you can see how hopeless the situation in terms of Standard printable counterspells really is.
Problem is that against control when the game goes into topdeck mode then Tron is nowhere near as strong as it used to be. Even drawing a land tutor like Sylvan Scrying would win you the game as you could fetch out Eye and tutor for a finisher. You won't be able to do that anymore if Eye gets banned. Like 8 of your topdecks are bad which completely takes a chunk out of the powerlevel of Tron.
I think with banning just Temple then Eldrazi will still be strong but won't be completely broken, which I think would mean Modern will be in a good place again. And you wouldn't cripple Tron which for us Tron players is a massive plus. It's okay that Eldrazi be a top tier deck it's not okay that it warps the format. Currently with both Eye AND Temple it is format warping but with Temple gone and Eye remaining I think the deck is fine still top tier but fine.
Perhaps, but I'm personally not too convinced that letting Mimic exist with Eye is a good idea. Even if they can't cast Thought-Knot Seer turn 2, a couple of Matter Reshapers swinging for 6 on the second turn still sounds rather fast and painful. But I guess they could afford to let the format test itself out with that scenario for another 3 months, it certainly can't be more broken than it currently is, at the very least.
Well, that's just my opinion and I doubt anything will change it in the short-term at least, so now all is left to wait for the actual announcement.
Yes this is a fair commment I totally respect where you are coming from. I personally would love if they banned Temple and left Eye in and let it see how it plays out, and if Eldrazi remained broken despite Temple gone then they can ban Eye too. For me this is what I'm hoping for but what I am expecting is that they just take the safer route and ban Eye straight out.
As you say, just got to wait for the actual announcement.