We got to the point where no deck can have a 50-50 or even 40-60 against all decks.
Either its going to be tron or something like infect or a combo deck that will give you an unwinnable matchup in a region of 30-70.
Just accept it and move on.
My decks were almost always losing or lose to tron. 2 stony silence and 4 fulminators will deplete your sideboard and i am still losing. I accepted it and move on.
There are 30 other different angles of attack and i can manage all the other ones if i just concede to tron in a diverse meta so that what i am doing.
When the tron players sits across me i know the resulta and this is frustrating.
Sadly or not, you have to give people a ramp deck to toy with if they want to players one.
Eldrazi were banned, bloom was banned, there is really nothing else.
Modern is not the format where the best players will win most of the times because even reid duke will fall to a mediocre tron This if he s on Jund. (Only chapin was winning that xD).
But it is one that an inexperienced player on a budget deck with fatties can do 4-0 at a local tour.
Legacy is another story. You cannot win miracles if u re on a budget nic for for example.
Standard is more of a format for a dominant deck in gw decks.
I dont know the solution to all of this.
There doesnt need to be a solution to this, if tron is the one bad matchup you face in a 4 round local event, you end up going 3-1. That is a 75% win rate. If your upset with a 75% win rate, you shouldnt be doing anything competitive, especially not a game based on variance
If your losing more than this, you either need to get better, tune your deck, or perhaps just switch your deck
If your facing tron more than once consistently locally, you really need to sit down and think about what you care more about, winning or your pet deck
Unofortunately a 75% win rate at a GP (11-4), is gambling on min cash at most GPs, your win rate has to clock in at almost 90% if you want to go to the Pro Tour. Which the current system is setup, doing it through Modern is inherently more difficult than any other GP format on the circuit. But if Modern is not meant for being a Pro Tour format, why am I the PPTQ player subject to suffering through the matchup lottery nature of Modern if it doesn't even feed into a Modern Pro Tour?
We got to the point where no deck can have a 50-50 or even 40-60 against all decks.
Either its going to be tron or something like infect or a combo deck that will give you an unwinnable matchup in a region of 30-70.
Just accept it and move on.
My decks were almost always losing or lose to tron. 2 stony silence and 4 fulminators will deplete your sideboard and i am still losing. I accepted it and move on.
There are 30 other different angles of attack and i can manage all the other ones if i just concede to tron in a diverse meta so that what i am doing.
When the tron players sits across me i know the resulta and this is frustrating.
Sadly or not, you have to give people a ramp deck to toy with if they want to players one.
Eldrazi were banned, bloom was banned, there is really nothing else.
Modern is not the format where the best players will win most of the times because even reid duke will fall to a mediocre tron This if he s on Jund. (Only chapin was winning that xD).
But it is one that an inexperienced player on a budget deck with fatties can do 4-0 at a local tour.
Legacy is another story. You cannot win miracles if u re on a budget nic for for example.
Standard is more of a format for a dominant deck in gw decks.
I dont know the solution to all of this.
There doesnt need to be a solution to this, if tron is the one bad matchup you face in a 4 round local event, you end up going 3-1. That is a 75% win rate. If your upset with a 75% win rate, you shouldnt be doing anything competitive, especially not a game based on variance
If your losing more than this, you either need to get better, tune your deck, or perhaps just switch your deck
If your facing tron more than once consistently locally, you really need to sit down and think about what you care more about, winning or your pet deck
Unofortunately a 75% win rate at a GP (11-4), is gambling on min cash at most GPs, your win rate has to clock in at almost 90% if you want to go to the Pro Tour. Which the current system is setup, doing it through Modern is inherently more difficult than any other GP format on the circuit. But if Modern is not meant for being a Pro Tour format, why am I the PPTQ player subject to suffering through the matchup lottery nature of Modern if it doesn't even feed into a Modern Pro Tour?
Most PPTQs are dropping Modern in favor of Standard or limited. You're welcome to follow suit.
On vacation and still had to jump in to reply to this new, and particularly vocal, bout of anti-Modern sentiment. Always happy to see not much changes in this thread!
Modern is NEVER going to have a deck with a 50-50 or better matchup against the field. Sam Stoddard said as much in a past article and that's not changing: "when your worst matchup is the mirror, that's a good sign something is going to get banned" (or something to that effect). All past decks that fit that mold, notably Eldrazi and also Twin, to a lesser and more contentious extent, got banned because they did have 50%+ win rates against basically everything else and the format warped around them as a result. When a metagame devolves into the best DTB and the anti-DTBs (that STILL lose to the DTB), something is getting banned.
Any player that doesnt like that situation shouldn't play Modern. It would be like going into Standard and complaining there are no viable combo decks. Or Legacy and whining about being unable to play Merfolk anymore. Different formats have different rules and conditions, and Modern's is clearly one where every deck will have some bad matchups against other top-tier decks. If players don't like that, don't play Modern.
We got to the point where no deck can have a 50-50 or even 40-60 against all decks.
Either its going to be tron or something like infect or a combo deck that will give you an unwinnable matchup in a region of 30-70.
Just accept it and move on.
My decks were almost always losing or lose to tron. 2 stony silence and 4 fulminators will deplete your sideboard and i am still losing. I accepted it and move on.
There are 30 other different angles of attack and i can manage all the other ones if i just concede to tron in a diverse meta so that what i am doing.
When the tron players sits across me i know the resulta and this is frustrating.
Sadly or not, you have to give people a ramp deck to toy with if they want to players one.
Eldrazi were banned, bloom was banned, there is really nothing else.
Modern is not the format where the best players will win most of the times because even reid duke will fall to a mediocre tron This if he s on Jund. (Only chapin was winning that xD).
But it is one that an inexperienced player on a budget deck with fatties can do 4-0 at a local tour.
Legacy is another story. You cannot win miracles if u re on a budget nic for for example.
Standard is more of a format for a dominant deck in gw decks.
I dont know the solution to all of this.
There doesnt need to be a solution to this, if tron is the one bad matchup you face in a 4 round local event, you end up going 3-1. That is a 75% win rate. If your upset with a 75% win rate, you shouldnt be doing anything competitive, especially not a game based on variance
If your losing more than this, you either need to get better, tune your deck, or perhaps just switch your deck
If your facing tron more than once consistently locally, you really need to sit down and think about what you care more about, winning or your pet deck
Unofortunately a 75% win rate at a GP (11-4), is gambling on min cash at most GPs, your win rate has to clock in at almost 90% if you want to go to the Pro Tour. Which the current system is setup, doing it through Modern is inherently more difficult than any other GP format on the circuit. But if Modern is not meant for being a Pro Tour format, why am I the PPTQ player subject to suffering through the matchup lottery nature of Modern if it doesn't even feed into a Modern Pro Tour?
Most PPTQs are dropping Modern in favor of Standard or limited. You're welcome to follow suit.
I wish I was in the position to make that decision locally. But I am not.
Modern would be fine if it were completely removed from competitive play, its just my opinion, but the pptq grinders have to deal with an entire modern season. Most of the players ive talked to who are serious grinders dont like modern for two main reasons, both of which I think i can mostly agree with:
1. Matchups are the most important factor to success.This is due to the fact that modern creates many "90-10"(obvious exaggerations) match ups.
2. Sideboard cards make or break games.
This leads to games feeling very luck based, where metagaming for a large event feels impossible.
Im glad nothing was banned or unbanned, and im glad they took modern off the pro tour, but the format as a whole needs some kind of overhaul.
WotC: "X is Banned"
Thread: "Rabble! rabble! rabble! Modern sucks"
WotC: "Nothing Banned, Nothing Unbanned"
Thrad: "Rabble! Rabble! Rabble! Modern sucks"
I for one am thankful Modern is still part of qualifying season so I'm not forced to play standard all the damn time. I get to play strategies that are not available in other formats in a competitive setting. If there was no outlet for competitive play (PPTQ, GP, etc), then the format would simply die off which isn't in anyone's interest. If a player doesn't enjoy the format, they are free to pursue other endeavors. No one is forcing them to sign up for their local PPTQ. No one is forcing them to invest in the format.
After playing two years almost exclusively modern I have to say that I really can't see the validity of the complains about the format not having a constant 55% deck. There are facts about modern and you CAN play around them. I am not gonna repeat the arguments many have said, it is simple, study the meta game, study your preferable decks, master the ins and outs of decks and you will reach a point where YOU will have a 55%+ win ration (and not your deck).
It is a format with THOUSANDS of cards and options. People used to complain about not having options when specific decks were dominant (and for good reason). Now people complain about the format being too diverse. In reality it is not. It is as diverse as the amount of cards allow it to be with moderation from wizards.
It has gotten to the point where people are arguing against the format itself for being what it is. It is like arguing that booster draft is not skill based because you can always get a bad pool. The fact of the matter is that you CAN play with said variance and you can win even with a bad pool. Study the cards, study the set and you will be in a good spot.
In modern, study the meta game, study the current trends, tune your deck based on your local/international meta game knowledge and you will be in a good spot, definitely above 55%+ win ratio if you are skilled enough.
In standard you have to figure out the best out of 7-10 decks and master it.
There are different requirements for different formats and I see absolutely no reason why modern shouldn't be competitive.
We got to the point where no deck can have a 50-50 or even 40-60 against all decks.
Either its going to be tron or something like infect or a combo deck that will give you an unwinnable matchup in a region of 30-70.
Just accept it and move on.
My decks were almost always losing or lose to tron. 2 stony silence and 4 fulminators will deplete your sideboard and i am still losing. I accepted it and move on.
There are 30 other different angles of attack and i can manage all the other ones if i just concede to tron in a diverse meta so that what i am doing.
When the tron players sits across me i know the resulta and this is frustrating.
Sadly or not, you have to give people a ramp deck to toy with if they want to players one.
Eldrazi were banned, bloom was banned, there is really nothing else.
Modern is not the format where the best players will win most of the times because even reid duke will fall to a mediocre tron This if he s on Jund. (Only chapin was winning that xD).
But it is one that an inexperienced player on a budget deck with fatties can do 4-0 at a local tour.
Legacy is another story. You cannot win miracles if u re on a budget nic for for example.
Standard is more of a format for a dominant deck in gw decks.
I dont know the solution to all of this.
There doesnt need to be a solution to this, if tron is the one bad matchup you face in a 4 round local event, you end up going 3-1. That is a 75% win rate. If your upset with a 75% win rate, you shouldnt be doing anything competitive, especially not a game based on variance
If your losing more than this, you either need to get better, tune your deck, or perhaps just switch your deck
If your facing tron more than once consistently locally, you really need to sit down and think about what you care more about, winning or your pet deck
Unofortunately a 75% win rate at a GP (11-4), is gambling on min cash at most GPs, your win rate has to clock in at almost 90% if you want to go to the Pro Tour. Which the current system is setup, doing it through Modern is inherently more difficult than any other GP format on the circuit. But if Modern is not meant for being a Pro Tour format, why am I the PPTQ player subject to suffering through the matchup lottery nature of Modern if it doesn't even feed into a Modern Pro Tour?
8 people in the entire event clock in that 90% win rate at that particular event on that particular day with that particular deck. The next week, that player has a much lower win rate at a different particular event with the same particular deck. You cant take one 12 round event to judge the win rate of yourself or a certain deck. You can look at the broader picture over several events. You can go to a standard GP with bant company or GW tokens after practicing with the deck and testing against the field rigorously for weeks, then go 0-3 drop (happened to me) and either blame it on yourself, the format, or variance, but none of that matters because that one individual event means nothing in the large scale. You see people like hoogland top 32ing 6+ modern events in a row with the same deck then you claim the opposite for the format.
In addition, you see pros constantly complaining about how top heavy gp payouts are, this isnt news and cannot be used as an argument against the game, only the way WotC pays out their high level events
goryo's vengeance is not broken now, but I can envision a future in which some other consistency tool gets printed to push the deck hard enough to be unfair.
goryo's vengeance is not broken now, but I can envision a future in which some other consistency tool gets printed to push the deck hard enough to be unfair.
If Preordain was legal Goryo's Vengeance would suddenly have a new consistency tool, no?
Yes and no. It would obviously have a tool to increase consistency, but requires the third color (hurts aggro mu) and isn't necessarily enough consistency to put it "over the top"
I guess it would depend on the version, but likely it would only replace Serum Visions in the grixis builds which have largely fallen out of favor because they aren't consistent enough to justify the heavier fetch / shock manabase. I'd argue the best shell for Goryo's w/ Preordain would be the Kentaro Yamamoto style Griselbrand / Emrakul version (PT OGW) which is a much more "fair" version of the deck, relies on the combat step, and can't win at instant speed.
no changes was correct this time around, and I agree. I feel that the format will eventually have to see a few cards go, but their time has not yet come:
simian spirit guide only really exists to push the speed rules in modern. The day that banning it doesn't make Ad Nauseum go away as a deck is probably the day it hits the short list to get the axe.
goryo's vengeance is not broken now, but I can envision a future in which some other consistency tool gets printed to push the deck hard enough to be unfair.
Otherwise, ban list looks reasonably stable for the time being and I hope to see no major changes for a good long while. Other cards could eventually come off the banned list, especially the more expensive (mana cost wise) ones, but I don't forsee that happening with the current state of Magic Design and powerlevel, as WOTC would want to couple those unbans with a supply increase.
In no way can Nacatl ban be compared to deathrire. That card does everything and even legacy players call it a one mana walker.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
If a deck beats everything, then everyone plays it. If everyone plays it, it doesnt beat everything anymore since it doesn't beat the mirror. Therefore you end up with either a skill based mirror (caw blade) or a luck based mirror (eldrazi) both of which take things out of your control. Skill based because face it, if you arent able to succeed in modern with the current tools, your skill is lacking (how many modern opens has hoogland t32d in a row now?) and luck based mirrors are just that, luck based
Well how do you succeed in the current Modern? I can't beat Soul Sisters with Burn. Do I need to Jared Boettcher my opponent's deck? Do I need to Fabrizio Anteri my deck? The only solution I can come up with is cheat or play a different deck, which is the case with all the decks I've tested in the Modern format. Since you're clearly saying I'm lacking skill, you obviously believe you are a better player than me, so how do you beat your unwinnable matchups? I clearly should have started cheating against Tron players who always have turn 3 Karn every game when I play Jund. Notice a pattern here? Outside of monopolizing a certain deck in my area, I can't eliminate bad matchups in Modern.
ok, I actually play Burn and Tron, so I know something about these things. First, Tron does not 'always have t3 Karn', that is the ideal hand for the deck, I would say maybe 1/4 games on a solid day. if it is happening significantly more than that, you are just unlucky, if it happens every time, your opponent IS CHEATING. Tron is not an infinite automatic win combo, but it is a combo deck, and it is geared to do extremely well against midrange decks. as for Sisters, when I sleeve up Burn, I don't worry about fringe playable decks, which that is. in either one, if that is a huge part of your meta, SB harder. if you actually want to eliminate bad matchups entirely and have every game come down to skill, it is actually very simple 1) sell your cards 2) walk away 3) buy a nice chess set. I really hate being an ass, but no format will have a deck with no bad MU's for long. Eldrazi was just a few months ago, wasthat fun for you? because that is what it looks like.
alternately, if you think that your skill is on a level where you deserve to do well, go design a deck that does well against everything. my suggestion is a control base with 15anti-'every flavor of aggro' cards in the SB. the players who can't accept bad matchups are vastly outnumbered by the people who want diversity, Wizardswill always cater to the more profitable group
Eldrazi was fun for me, I won a lot of matches of Magic. I punished people who made the mistake of bringing something else to a tournament. The only people that complained about that period of time were the people who didn't have the resources to obtain the deck and the people who were extremely attached to their pet deck. And I never claimed that I was skilled at Magic since it has been pointed out by bfrie that I'm not very good at Magic so I don't know where you got your idea of my skill level from.
That is not true. Many people had the disposable income for eldrazi but to some winning is not everything if the game is boring to them. The fun of magic is in being able to face enough different decks to have it be interesting. If you want symetrical balance play s game where all players have the same tools.
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
In what way is this different from Legacy? Even the mighty Miracles doesn't fulfill the qualities you want.
ok, I actually play Burn and Tron, so I know something about these things. First, Tron does not 'always have t3 Karn', that is the ideal hand for the deck, I would say maybe 1/4 games on a solid day. if it is happening significantly more than that, you are just unlucky, if it happens every time, your opponent IS CHEATING.
I think someone did some calculations and the average amount of Turn 3 Karns was something like 20% (averaging on the play and on the draw), which fits with my personal experiences. That's assuming zero disruption, though.
Tron is a perfectly fine deck and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it existing.
What's even the line for why Tron is bad anymore anyway? That it suppresses control? That canard might have worked when control was bad, but there's a Tier 1 control deck right now. That it suppresses other decks? I guess that explains why Jund, Abzan Company, and UWR Control, all decks that Tron is really good against (particularly the latter two) are in the Tier 1 forum.
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
In what way is this different from Legacy? Even the mighty Miracles doesn't fulfill the qualities you want.
Actually Miracles basically fulfills the qualities I want because Miracles actually beats all the non-decks in the format aside from 12-POST and MUD. Which are literally non-factors in the format. Eldrazi and Abrupt Decay decks don't crush Miracles. There's a reason Miracles had the most representation in the top 8's of the double Legacy GP weekend. It's literally better than everything else and it's hard to argue against that when the results clearly show that. Unless you are like a stone master like Rodrigo Togores with ANT, I really cannot see why you wouldn't play Miracles other than card availability (if you want to win).
We got to the point where no deck can have a 50-50 or even 40-60 against all decks.
Either its going to be tron or something like infect or a combo deck that will give you an unwinnable matchup in a region of 30-70.
Just accept it and move on.
My decks were almost always losing or lose to tron. 2 stony silence and 4 fulminators will deplete your sideboard and i am still losing. I accepted it and move on.
There are 30 other different angles of attack and i can manage all the other ones if i just concede to tron in a diverse meta so that what i am doing.
When the tron players sits across me i know the resulta and this is frustrating.
Sadly or not, you have to give people a ramp deck to toy with if they want to players one.
Eldrazi were banned, bloom was banned, there is really nothing else.
Modern is not the format where the best players will win most of the times because even reid duke will fall to a mediocre tron This if he s on Jund. (Only chapin was winning that xD).
But it is one that an inexperienced player on a budget deck with fatties can do 4-0 at a local tour.
Legacy is another story. You cannot win miracles if u re on a budget nic for for example.
Standard is more of a format for a dominant deck in gw decks.
I dont know the solution to all of this.
There doesnt need to be a solution to this, if tron is the one bad matchup you face in a 4 round local event, you end up going 3-1. That is a 75% win rate. If your upset with a 75% win rate, you shouldnt be doing anything competitive, especially not a game based on variance
If your losing more than this, you either need to get better, tune your deck, or perhaps just switch your deck
If your facing tron more than once consistently locally, you really need to sit down and think about what you care more about, winning or your pet deck
Unofortunately a 75% win rate at a GP (11-4), is gambling on min cash at most GPs, your win rate has to clock in at almost 90% if you want to go to the Pro Tour. Which the current system is setup, doing it through Modern is inherently more difficult than any other GP format on the circuit. But if Modern is not meant for being a Pro Tour format, why am I the PPTQ player subject to suffering through the matchup lottery nature of Modern if it doesn't even feed into a Modern Pro Tour?
8 people in the entire event clock in that 90% win rate at that particular event on that particular day with that particular deck. The next week, that player has a much lower win rate at a different particular event with the same particular deck. You cant take one 12 round event to judge the win rate of yourself or a certain deck. You can look at the broader picture over several events. You can go to a standard GP with bant company or GW tokens after practicing with the deck and testing against the field rigorously for weeks, then go 0-3 drop (happened to me) and either blame it on yourself, the format, or variance, but none of that matters because that one individual event means nothing in the large scale. You see people like hoogland top 32ing 6+ modern events in a row with the same deck then you claim the opposite for the format.
In addition, you see pros constantly complaining about how top heavy gp payouts are, this isnt news and cannot be used as an argument against the game, only the way WotC pays out their high level events
This guy gets it. Qualifying for events through top 8s takes mostly luck and that is in any large tournament. If you are constantly in the top 32 you are doing well you just have not lucked out to a top 8 yet. I believe payouts should be distributed further down in placings because a big portion of going from top 32 to top 8 is luck.
A big part of why we actuslly play out tournaments is due to the variance. Sure skill is a larger portion of magic than luck bht the luck is still significant enough to determine your tournament. In chess there could be some that is beyond everyone dlse that the spectator portion could be a bit boring imo unless you are trying to lesrn.
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
In what way is this different from Legacy? Even the mighty Miracles doesn't fulfill the qualities you want.
Actually Miracles basically fulfills the qualities I want because Miracles actually beats all the non-decks in the format aside from 12-POST and MUD. Which are literally non-factors in the format. Eldrazi and Abrupt Decay decks don't crush Miracles. There's a reason Miracles had the most representation in the top 8's of the double Legacy GP weekend. It's literally better than everything else and it's hard to argue against that when the results clearly show that. Unless you are like a stone master like Rodrigo Togores with ANT, I really cannot see why you wouldn't play Miracles other than card availability (if you want to win).
Miraclea has like a 55%-60% mwp against the field minus post, mud and eldrazi. According to you, 75% isnt enough, so no, miracles does not fulfill what your asking for
By the way, Dig and TC are now banned in Duel Commander. That gives them the dubious honor of being banned in Modern, Legacy, Duel Commander, Pauper (TC only), and the next closest thing to being banned in Vintage. Skullclamp and Misstep ain't got ***** on TC and Dig (well, other than Clamp being banned in Standard).
I don't ever see TC coming off. Dig, I could see coming off in a relatively distant future in which the powerlevel of the format has been pushed a good bit further. I'm talking in a 2-3 years timespan, similar to the amount of time it took to unban grave-troll and find out that dredge really wasn't oppressive.
As far as "nacatl treatment", I just meant that DRS could serve its time, and the metagame could evolve to a point where the reasons it was banned no longer are relevant. A good one would be this value dredge deck getting ANOTHER piece and pushing for tier 1 status.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Modern would be fine if it were completely removed from competitive play, its just my opinion, but the pptq grinders have to deal with an entire modern season. Most of the players ive talked to who are serious grinders dont like modern for two main reasons, both of which I think i can mostly agree with:
1. Matchups are the most important factor to success.This is due to the fact that modern creates many "90-10"(obvious exaggerations) match ups.
2. Sideboard cards make or break games.
This leads to games feeling very luck based, where metagaming for a large event feels impossible.
Im glad nothing was banned or unbanned, and im glad they took modern off the pro tour, but the format as a whole needs some kind of overhaul.
that seems to be the consensus among most grinders around here too. I mean some grinders enjoy it but they're few and far in between. I mean I'm fine with no bannings and unbannings.
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
In what way is this different from Legacy? Even the mighty Miracles doesn't fulfill the qualities you want.
Actually Miracles basically fulfills the qualities I want because Miracles actually beats all the non-decks in the format aside from 12-POST and MUD. Which are literally non-factors in the format. Eldrazi and Abrupt Decay decks don't crush Miracles. There's a reason Miracles had the most representation in the top 8's of the double Legacy GP weekend. It's literally better than everything else and it's hard to argue against that when the results clearly show that. Unless you are like a stone master like Rodrigo Togores with ANT, I really cannot see why you wouldn't play Miracles other than card availability (if you want to win).
Miracles does EXACTLY what ktkenshinx quoted a wizards employee on what bannable decks do, have majority 50/50 or greater matchups against most of the field. There is no good reason for miracles existing in legacy in it's current state.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Modern would be fine if it were completely removed from competitive play, its just my opinion, but the pptq grinders have to deal with an entire modern season. Most of the players ive talked to who are serious grinders dont like modern for two main reasons, both of which I think i can mostly agree with:
1. Matchups are the most important factor to success.This is due to the fact that modern creates many "90-10"(obvious exaggerations) match ups.
2. Sideboard cards make or break games.
This leads to games feeling very luck based, where metagaming for a large event feels impossible.
Im glad nothing was banned or unbanned, and im glad they took modern off the pro tour, but the format as a whole needs some kind of overhaul.
that seems to be the consensus among most grinders around here too. I mean some grinders enjoy it but they're few and far in between. I mean I'm fine with no bannings and unbannings.
they need to give the more fair and grindy strategies maindeckable hate or ban alot of things, one or the other. print a card that can kill a creature, or remove a graveyard, or kill an artifact/enchantment/ or destroy a nonbasic land all in one.. ect. and the cmc would have to be low enough for it to be efficient/fast enough for this fast format. but there in lies the problem that something like that in standard would be OP and were stuck with what we have. so it seems modern is doomed to be what it is; a game that relies on matchups and hate cards more than it does skill and you wonder why pros/players whine all the time about modern. hmmm I wonder.
Unofortunately a 75% win rate at a GP (11-4), is gambling on min cash at most GPs, your win rate has to clock in at almost 90% if you want to go to the Pro Tour. Which the current system is setup, doing it through Modern is inherently more difficult than any other GP format on the circuit. But if Modern is not meant for being a Pro Tour format, why am I the PPTQ player subject to suffering through the matchup lottery nature of Modern if it doesn't even feed into a Modern Pro Tour?
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Modern is NEVER going to have a deck with a 50-50 or better matchup against the field. Sam Stoddard said as much in a past article and that's not changing: "when your worst matchup is the mirror, that's a good sign something is going to get banned" (or something to that effect). All past decks that fit that mold, notably Eldrazi and also Twin, to a lesser and more contentious extent, got banned because they did have 50%+ win rates against basically everything else and the format warped around them as a result. When a metagame devolves into the best DTB and the anti-DTBs (that STILL lose to the DTB), something is getting banned.
Any player that doesnt like that situation shouldn't play Modern. It would be like going into Standard and complaining there are no viable combo decks. Or Legacy and whining about being unable to play Merfolk anymore. Different formats have different rules and conditions, and Modern's is clearly one where every deck will have some bad matchups against other top-tier decks. If players don't like that, don't play Modern.
I wish I was in the position to make that decision locally. But I am not.
1. Matchups are the most important factor to success.This is due to the fact that modern creates many "90-10"(obvious exaggerations) match ups.
2. Sideboard cards make or break games.
This leads to games feeling very luck based, where metagaming for a large event feels impossible.
Im glad nothing was banned or unbanned, and im glad they took modern off the pro tour, but the format as a whole needs some kind of overhaul.
We will rebuild.
Thread: "Rabble! rabble! rabble! Modern sucks"
WotC: "Nothing Banned, Nothing Unbanned"
Thrad: "Rabble! Rabble! Rabble! Modern sucks"
I for one am thankful Modern is still part of qualifying season so I'm not forced to play standard all the damn time. I get to play strategies that are not available in other formats in a competitive setting. If there was no outlet for competitive play (PPTQ, GP, etc), then the format would simply die off which isn't in anyone's interest. If a player doesn't enjoy the format, they are free to pursue other endeavors. No one is forcing them to sign up for their local PPTQ. No one is forcing them to invest in the format.
It is a format with THOUSANDS of cards and options. People used to complain about not having options when specific decks were dominant (and for good reason). Now people complain about the format being too diverse. In reality it is not. It is as diverse as the amount of cards allow it to be with moderation from wizards.
It has gotten to the point where people are arguing against the format itself for being what it is. It is like arguing that booster draft is not skill based because you can always get a bad pool. The fact of the matter is that you CAN play with said variance and you can win even with a bad pool. Study the cards, study the set and you will be in a good spot.
In modern, study the meta game, study the current trends, tune your deck based on your local/international meta game knowledge and you will be in a good spot, definitely above 55%+ win ratio if you are skilled enough.
In standard you have to figure out the best out of 7-10 decks and master it.
There are different requirements for different formats and I see absolutely no reason why modern shouldn't be competitive.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
8 people in the entire event clock in that 90% win rate at that particular event on that particular day with that particular deck. The next week, that player has a much lower win rate at a different particular event with the same particular deck. You cant take one 12 round event to judge the win rate of yourself or a certain deck. You can look at the broader picture over several events. You can go to a standard GP with bant company or GW tokens after practicing with the deck and testing against the field rigorously for weeks, then go 0-3 drop (happened to me) and either blame it on yourself, the format, or variance, but none of that matters because that one individual event means nothing in the large scale. You see people like hoogland top 32ing 6+ modern events in a row with the same deck then you claim the opposite for the format.
In addition, you see pros constantly complaining about how top heavy gp payouts are, this isnt news and cannot be used as an argument against the game, only the way WotC pays out their high level events
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
If Preordain was legal Goryo's Vengeance would suddenly have a new consistency tool, no?
Yes and no. It would obviously have a tool to increase consistency, but requires the third color (hurts aggro mu) and isn't necessarily enough consistency to put it "over the top"
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
In no way can Nacatl ban be compared to deathrire. That card does everything and even legacy players call it a one mana walker.
That is not true. Many people had the disposable income for eldrazi but to some winning is not everything if the game is boring to them. The fun of magic is in being able to face enough different decks to have it be interesting. If you want symetrical balance play s game where all players have the same tools.
Variety in MUs makes for good coverage IMO.
I still don't buy wizards monkeys paw nonsense about bans/unbans in relation to event coverage.
Tron is a perfectly fine deck and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it existing.
What's even the line for why Tron is bad anymore anyway? That it suppresses control? That canard might have worked when control was bad, but there's a Tier 1 control deck right now. That it suppresses other decks? I guess that explains why Jund, Abzan Company, and UWR Control, all decks that Tron is really good against (particularly the latter two) are in the Tier 1 forum.
Actually Miracles basically fulfills the qualities I want because Miracles actually beats all the non-decks in the format aside from 12-POST and MUD. Which are literally non-factors in the format. Eldrazi and Abrupt Decay decks don't crush Miracles. There's a reason Miracles had the most representation in the top 8's of the double Legacy GP weekend. It's literally better than everything else and it's hard to argue against that when the results clearly show that. Unless you are like a stone master like Rodrigo Togores with ANT, I really cannot see why you wouldn't play Miracles other than card availability (if you want to win).
This guy gets it. Qualifying for events through top 8s takes mostly luck and that is in any large tournament. If you are constantly in the top 32 you are doing well you just have not lucked out to a top 8 yet. I believe payouts should be distributed further down in placings because a big portion of going from top 32 to top 8 is luck.
A big part of why we actuslly play out tournaments is due to the variance. Sure skill is a larger portion of magic than luck bht the luck is still significant enough to determine your tournament. In chess there could be some that is beyond everyone dlse that the spectator portion could be a bit boring imo unless you are trying to lesrn.
Miraclea has like a 55%-60% mwp against the field minus post, mud and eldrazi. According to you, 75% isnt enough, so no, miracles does not fulfill what your asking for
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
lol @ ppl asking for TC/Dig unbans in Modern
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
As far as "nacatl treatment", I just meant that DRS could serve its time, and the metagame could evolve to a point where the reasons it was banned no longer are relevant. A good one would be this value dredge deck getting ANOTHER piece and pushing for tier 1 status.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
that seems to be the consensus among most grinders around here too. I mean some grinders enjoy it but they're few and far in between. I mean I'm fine with no bannings and unbannings.
Miracles does EXACTLY what ktkenshinx quoted a wizards employee on what bannable decks do, have majority 50/50 or greater matchups against most of the field. There is no good reason for miracles existing in legacy in it's current state.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
decks playing:
none