Well clearly not if you're not using them. You have a tendency to moan about the format but you're not willing to adapt to it. Why should anyone take your moaning seriously? No offense but you're always wingeing about how blue sucks since Twin was banned and then when people point out that Jeskai is Tier 1 and that both Delver and Grixis have won recent competitive events you simple state that "the pilot was lucky" or "they lucked out with their pairings", blue is clearly capable in the current metagame. For right or for wrong, with Twin having been banned recently and AV being unbanned there is almost zero chance of Twin coming back in the near future, just accept that and foster your time and energy into learning or creating a deck you enjoy playing.
Jeskai is barely hanging on to it's Tier 1 status. Delver put one copy into the top 32 of a GP and happened to win it. You can't argue blue reactive strategies are in a healthy place. Yes, he whines a lot, but you would too if you had a $1800 deck ripped out of your hands and were told to go play a worse deck. I've been hit from 2 bans now and I'm in the same camp as him. Twin may have been a bandaid, but honestly I don't trust Wizards to fix the problems with the format and twin did just that even if it was a bandaid.
AV really isn't that good tbh. It's card disadvantage for 4 turns? 5 turns? for a chance to draw 3. Other cards would just be flat out better in the blue matchups, and most BGx pilots don't seem to find AV as being that bad for them.
Just because your a mod doesn't allow for you to make hyperbolic logical fallacies.
Pod was only Tier 0 during delver era. We don't have proof they would have kept the full Rhino build after the TC ban. We never saw the deck in a meta outside of TC delver meta. Twin has never been tier 0, so LOL to your argument there. Eldrazi definitely still would be tier 0.
Let's have an actually discussion and not just make generic off the wall statements please.
I guess it's personal factor more than anything. For me it's fine, for you not but I think that at least it shows that it's not as bad as some people make it to bad although it's not in a perfect spot.
I can say that if I had bought into Jund instead of Twin when I started in Modern, I would probably think things are fine right now too. But looking at an expensive pile of URx staples collecting dust in piles of mediocrity without a backup deck, it's not exactly amazing.
It's not too late. Your URx cards have retained all their value, with the exception of the 4x Twin themselves. If you want to buy into Jund you have the capital in your URx cards to do it. That said, I have a sneaky suspicion it won't serve you well...
Yeah, that would be an absolutely terrible financial decision.
Well clearly not if you're not using them. You have a tendency to moan about the format but you're not willing to adapt to it.
I am using them, they're just not nearly as good or enjoyable as they used to be. I would like to think it should be a goal to include good reactive decks to the format; kind of like how the end of 2015 was described as extremely healthy. I hate playing aggro and I'm not a fan of cluttered board states. I absolutely love tempo plays and incremental control. Currently, that kind of archetype is not a successful option in the format. Additionally, liquidating my inventory of URx staples to buy into another deck is a horrendously stupid idea. Besides the depreciation factor (which has seen a 5-15% drop across many of the cards), the costs and fees associated with doing so would combine with the market value drop for a total loss between 30-40%. I would rather play with what I have than lose lots of money building and playing something I don't even really like that much in the first place.
No offense but you're always wingeing about how blue sucks since Twin was banned and then when people point out that Jeskai is Tier 1 and that both Delver and Grixis have won recent competitive events you simple state that "the pilot was lucky" or "they lucked out with their pairings", blue is clearly capable in the current metagame.
I made that comment specifically because Delver literally showed up nowhere else in the top 32 of any GP that weekend (only 1 other Delver deck in all top 64s at #41 in Indy) and 0 copies in the top 32 of the following SCG Open. That's a lucky player having a lucky day combined with his individual skill. If the deck truly had the power to compete consistently, it would have shown up just slightly more often than once or twice out of more than 224 top decks from three GPs and an SCG Open combined. Additionally, Jeskai has been hanging by a thread without putting up any noteworthy successes for several months.
For right or for wrong, with Twin having been banned recently and AV being unbanned there is almost zero chance of Twin coming back in the near future, just accept that and foster your time and energy into learning or creating a deck you enjoy playing.
Maybe so. I'm playing Grixis Delver right now (and begrudgingly cutting counterspells for Pyromancers, Probes, and extra burn), and it can be amazingly enjoyable when I play up against a similarly interactive deck. What I can't stand is when I sit down and a match is essentially decided in less than 15 minutes and revolves entirely around "did I draw exactly X card at exactly the right time?" That is not fun or entertaining or enjoyable or fulfilling. It is bland, empty, boring, and a waste of my time. Most of the top decks in Modern only care about racing you and killing you as quickly and efficiently as possible. If they run any interaction at all, it is usually to protect their ability to kill you or it's stapled to a 4/4 and a 5/5 that can land as early as turns 2 and 3. I would love playing against Jund and Grixis all day because, win or lose, they would at least be lengthy and enjoyable games.
"Most of the top decks in Modern only care about racing you and killing you as quickly and efficiently as possible."
I second this, I may be playing online which isn't the best indicator of a formats meta-game, but 80% of decks im facing are literally racing with little interaction. it makes no sense to play a fair honest deck in this game anymore. you need a combo in your interactive deck or you wont perform well because there is too much to answer.
twin was what blue needed to compete in this game and police linearity properly.
Just because your a mod doesn't allow for you to make hyperbolic logical fallacies.
Pod was only Tier 0 during delver era. We don't have proof they would have kept the full Rhino build after the TC ban. We never saw the deck in a meta outside of TC delver meta. Twin has never been tier 0, so LOL to your argument there. Eldrazi definitely still would be tier 0.
Let's have an actually discussion and not just make generic off the wall statements please.
Actually, Birthing Pod was never Tier 0 at all, even during the "Delver era." As the name suggests, Delver was kind of a really big force in the format. Birthing Pod was a Tier 0.5 deck (so was Delver).
But the bigger point was of perspective. If my deck were doing fine (or excelling) then my perspective of the format and its health would be vastly different than if my deck were doing relatively poorly. It's an attitude displayed by many, and most of those people are playing decks that are powerful and successful. If I had the option to just pick up and play Jund or Affinity or Eldrazi or Infect without spending thousands of dollars, I would, and then I could feel the format is fine too.
In that case, it's clear that our perspectives differ (not that it was particularly murky before). My Amulet Bloom deck got the axe and I certainly didn't cry about it. I'm not constantly calling for a Summer Bloom unban. I tried to brew with Amulet for awhile and then I sold my cards and I built something else. Now I'm playing TURNS (yes, a tier 3 BLUE combo/control deck!) of all things and I'm loving it. If your perspective is that you're going to be salty until Twin gets unbanned then you'd better buy a silo.
1) If you're not enjoying what you're playing then don't play it. Find something else you like better.
2) The issue you have with Delver then isn't that it isn't competitive (as it clearly is), it's that it's not popular.
3) Again, if you're not enjoying yourself playing a deck adapt it to your own play style or find something else you like playing. Those are your only options currently as Twin isn't likely to be coming back for some time.]
1. I have been. Commander is an amazingly fun format and I have cobbled together multiple decks for my playgroup and have had more fun doing that than playing Modern all year long. It's just unfortunate because it's a casual format and I also enjoy the skill and intensity of competitive Magic at the Modern power level.
2. It is both not popular and not powerful. It is a swingy deck that favors good draws.
3. Luckily I am bombarded by grad school work and have very little time to actually play these days anyway, so given that the few experiences I have had in the past few months have been less than stellar, I am also not losing sleep over not being able to play as much as I used to.
The fact that multiple different blue decks have been winning competitive Modern events since cfusionpm has been condemning blue decks in the format because they're not Twin is just getting boring to read.
What are these multiple event-winning blue decks and what events are they winning? The 1 deck that only had 1 other copy among over 200 other top decks in the four biggest events of the past couple months? Also, if you don't like what I have to say, you are free to put me on ignore. It's clear I am not the only one who has these opinions about the format, I just happen to be one of the loudest.
You have to bare in mind that Twin was only ever the underdog against Jund game 1 and games 2-3 were 50/50 at best for Jund. AV, although not broken, would easily increase those odds for the Twin player.
Good! Then the games would be decided by skill and play choices instead of dice rolls, top decks, and matchup lotteries. Also, a negative matchup G1 plus a 50/50 G2/3 is still a negative matchup overall. Just because it "isn't as bad as it could be" doesn't mean its a good matchup by any means. Jund is by no means a picnic for ANY Twin player, and now with Bant Eldrazi, that makes TWO annoying and difficult matchups for the deck, AV or not. But then again, there are many here who do not see the threat Eldrazi still poses because the bombardment of linear degeneracy overall is hiding it.
But the bigger point was of perspective. If my deck were doing fine (or excelling) then my perspective of the format and its health would be vastly different than if my deck were doing relatively poorly. It's an attitude displayed by many, and most of those people are playing decks that are powerful and successful. If I had the option to just pick up and play Jund or Affinity or Eldrazi or Infect without spending thousands of dollars, I would, and then I could feel the format is fine too.
In that case, it's clear that our perspectives differ (not that it was particularly murky before). My Amulet Bloom deck got the axe and I certainly didn't cry about it. I'm not constantly calling for a Summer Bloom unban.
One of the differences could be that literally everybody believed Bloom was going to be banned. It was a busted broken deck that won early and through multiple levels of disruption. It did not grow in meta percentage because once it was obvious how powerful it was, it was also obvious it was going to get banned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBPVuiI2jgE
I tried to brew with Amulet for awhile and then I sold my cards and I built something else. Now I'm playing TURNS (yes, a tier 3 BLUE combo/control deck!) of all things and I'm loving it. If your perspective is that you're going to be salty until Twin gets unbanned then you'd better buy a silo.
And I've been brewing with URx cards for 10 months now. Grixis Delver is the most enjoyable deck I have found. My salt has more to do with the state of a format that suppresses the kinds of decks rather than specifically Twin itself. If you've got the answer to slow down linearity and promote interaction without bringing back Twin, I'd love it if you passed the ideas along to Wizards. It just seems to me that the quickest, easiest, and most obvious solution to promote what was once considered one of the best and most healthy states of the format is to put Twin back into Modern.
Yeah, Delver didn't just win a GP or anything. Watch as I shed a single tear for your poor pile of useless Lightning Bolts, Spell Snares, Serum Visions, the list goes on...
OH WOE IS THE EX-TWIN PLAYER
I personally don't like these examples. Elves won the recent SCG Invitational, that doesn't mean it's necessarily god tier either, or representative of how good the deck is. Delver could win the next 4 Grand Prix, and it would still be in a bad position based on meta percentage if it was the only deck to be in the top 32 containing blue.
Yeah, Delver didn't just win a GP or anything. Watch as I shed a single tear for your poor pile of useless Lightning Bolts, Spell Snares, Serum Visions, the list goes on...
OH WOE IS THE EX-TWIN PLAYER
I personally don't like these examples. Elves won the recent SCG Invitational, that doesn't mean it's necessarily god tier either, or representative of how good the deck is. Delver could win the next 4 Grand Prix, and it would still be in a bad position based on meta percentage if it was the only deck to be in the top 32 containing blue.
People put way too much stock in what wins something. What is the difference between a deck that got 1st place and a deck that got 8th place? Basically nothing other than the fact that the deck that got 1st place was luckier. Top 8's are a complete crapshoot. Got a bad matchup? Had to mulligan a few times? You're done. And while that's true during the swiss, some bad luck in one match can be made up for by doing well in the others. In the Top 8, you're out if you lose a match.
So I count 3 strategies that are dedicated to reacting to their opponent with countermagic and 29 other decks that don't even want to bother with playing permission in their maindeck to react, is that a healthy representation of the metagame? Wafo-Tapa being the best control master in the world can't even top 8 the MOCS with blue counterspells. Is that really a healthy representation of control as an archetype? Like I see so many other Aggro decks that it's extremely hard to ignore the fact that Aggro > the rest of the format. And I would consider this event to be of a higher level than a GP.
So I count 3 strategies that are dedicated to reacting to their opponent with countermagic and 29 other decks that don't even want to bother with playing permission in their maindeck to react, is that a healthy representation of the metagame? Wafo-Tapa being the best control master in the world can't even top 8 the MOCS with blue counterspells. Is that really a healthy representation of control as an archetype? Like I see so many other Aggro decks that it's extremely hard to ignore the fact that Aggro > the rest of the format. And I would consider this event to be of a higher level than a GP.
The format is modern magic, which means it has modern design philosophies. Permission has no place in the new world order.
My salt has more to do with the state of a format that suppresses the kinds of decks rather than specifically Twin itself. If you've got the answer to slow down linearity and promote interaction without bringing back Twin, I'd love it if you passed the ideas along to Wizards. It just seems to me that the quickest, easiest, and most obvious solution to promote what was once considered one of the best and most healthy states of the format is to put Twin back into Modern.
No, I really don't. On the plus side, MaRo is always asking about that at our weekly poker game. When I tell him about the latest developments it will probably go like this:
MaRo: "Is he still mad?" Me: "Wha-? Uh, no." MaRo: "No?" Me: "No, he's on... uh, Delver." MaRo: "Delver!? That's great! That means-- Wait, why did you pause when you said that?" Me: "Um, no reason..." MaRo: "He's still mad, isn't he? C'mon, we're best friends. You can tell me." Me: "Yeah, okay, he's still mad." MaRo: "Dammit! I knew this charade wouldn't last for long. It looks like we've got no other choice. We can't have Modern without Splinter Twin." AF: "But I think if we just take a Standard set and reprint Countersp--" MaRo: "Put a lid on it, Forsythe!! I don't pay you to think! Eat your chips." AF: "Grrr..." MaRo: "Tell him he was right all along. Send him a couple of free cases and my apologies. How could I have been so STUPID?"
Just because your a mod doesn't allow for you to make hyperbolic logical fallacies.
Pod was only Tier 0 during delver era. We don't have proof they would have kept the full Rhino build after the TC ban. We never saw the deck in a meta outside of TC delver meta. Twin has never been tier 0, so LOL to your argument there. Eldrazi definitely still would be tier 0.
Let's have an actually discussion and not just make generic off the wall statements please.
Look. I dont need a mod to know when someone says "if twin and pod werent banned, eldrazi wouldnt have been an issue." They are wrong.
I also dont need to be a mod to stroll through your post history and see a ton of posts of you blindly defending twin or going off about on cast triggers and know that it doesnt matter what people say, its not going to be a discussion.
So I count 3 strategies that are dedicated to reacting to their opponent with countermagic and 29 other decks that don't even want to bother with playing permission in their maindeck to react, is that a healthy representation of the metagame? Wafo-Tapa being the best control master in the world can't even top 8 the MOCS with blue counterspells. Is that really a healthy representation of control as an archetype? Like I see so many other Aggro decks that it's extremely hard to ignore the fact that Aggro > the rest of the format. And I would consider this event to be of a higher level than a GP.
That is an extremely misleading representation of those results, i count 14 decks whos primary gameplan is to interact. Counterspellz are not the only way to interact
So I count 3 strategies that are dedicated to reacting to their opponent with countermagic and 29 other decks that don't even want to bother with playing permission in their maindeck to react, is that a healthy representation of the metagame? Wafo-Tapa being the best control master in the world can't even top 8 the MOCS with blue counterspells. Is that really a healthy representation of control as an archetype? Like I see so many other Aggro decks that it's extremely hard to ignore the fact that Aggro > the rest of the format. And I would consider this event to be of a higher level than a GP.
What bfrie just said, extremely misleading at best. As for interactive decks:
Bant Eldrazi: 4
Jund: 2
Jund Moon: 2
Abzan: 2
Grixis: 1
Jeskai: 1
Sultai: 1
BTL Scapeshift: 1
Lantern: 1
Taxes/Bears: 1
Regarding Wafo-Tapa, are you really complaining about Jeskai Draw-Go having "just" an 89% MWP? We're sorry it is not tier 0. Also Sultai, of all decks, went 9-0! Props to suzan! Time for me to give the deck a try!
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Just because your a mod doesn't allow for you to make hyperbolic logical fallacies.
Pod was only Tier 0 during delver era. We don't have proof they would have kept the full Rhino build after the TC ban. We never saw the deck in a meta outside of TC delver meta. Twin has never been tier 0, so LOL to your argument there. Eldrazi definitely still would be tier 0.
Let's have an actually discussion and not just make generic off the wall statements please.
Look. I dont need a mod to know when someone says "if twin and pod werent banned, eldrazi wouldnt have been an issue." They are wring and it.
I also dont need to be a mod to stroll through your post history and see a ton of posts of you blindly defending twin or going off about on cast triggers and know that it doesnt matter what people say, its not going to be a discussion.
Firstly, what does my post history have to do with my post?
Secondly, I said absolutely nothing about twin needing to be unbanned in my post.
Also, at this point you're spamming by being off topic from the thread, so please all mighty mod why don't we stay on topic, "The ban list discussion", and original reply to you.
From your OP: "All posts MUST relate directly to the banlist, bans, unbans, and/or banlist policy. Comments about other Modern issues, grievances, or topics will be treated as spam."
As for posting on topic, particularly about twin, well it may be purely chance that modern went to ***** post twin and eldrazi bans. I believe that twin is very much why the format has gone to *****. The only reason the meta looked healthy originally post eldrazi ban was because people wanted to test out sword combo and AV. Now people realize they aren't as good as we thought they'd be so they've moved to better decks.
Just because your a mod doesn't allow for you to make hyperbolic logical fallacies.
Pod was only Tier 0 during delver era. We don't have proof they would have kept the full Rhino build after the TC ban. We never saw the deck in a meta outside of TC delver meta. Twin has never been tier 0, so LOL to your argument there. Eldrazi definitely still would be tier 0.
Let's have an actually discussion and not just make generic off the wall statements please.
Look. I dont need a mod to know when someone says "if twin and pod werent banned, eldrazi wouldnt have been an issue." They are wring and it.
I also dont need to be a mod to stroll through your post history and see a ton of posts of you blindly defending twin or going off about on cast triggers and know that it doesnt matter what people say, its not going to be a discussion.
Firstly, what does my post history have to do with my post?
Secondly, I said absolutely nothing about twin needing to be unbanned in my post.
Also, at this point you're spamming by being off topic from the thread, so please all mighty mod why don't we stay on topic, "The ban list discussion", and original reply to you.
From your OP: "All posts MUST relate directly to the banlist, bans, unbans, and/or banlist policy. Comments about other Modern issues, grievances, or topics will be treated as spam."
As for posting on topic, particularly about twin, well it may be purely chance that modern went to ***** post twin and eldrazi bans. I believe that twin is very much why the format has gone to *****. The only reason the meta looked healthy originally post eldrazi ban was because people wanted to test out sword combo and AV. Now people realize they aren't as good as we thought they'd be so they've moved to better decks.
you realize modern looks like a freakin supermodel now compared to modern BEFORE the eldrazi ban, right?
Just because your a mod doesn't allow for you to make hyperbolic logical fallacies.
Pod was only Tier 0 during delver era. We don't have proof they would have kept the full Rhino build after the TC ban. We never saw the deck in a meta outside of TC delver meta. Twin has never been tier 0, so LOL to your argument there. Eldrazi definitely still would be tier 0.
Let's have an actually discussion and not just make generic off the wall statements please.
Look. I dont need a mod to know when someone says "if twin and pod werent banned, eldrazi wouldnt have been an issue." They are wring and it.
I also dont need to be a mod to stroll through your post history and see a ton of posts of you blindly defending twin or going off about on cast triggers and know that it doesnt matter what people say, its not going to be a discussion.
Firstly, what does my post history have to do with my post?
Secondly, I said absolutely nothing about twin needing to be unbanned in my post.
Also, at this point you're spamming by being off topic from the thread, so please all mighty mod why don't we stay on topic, "The ban list discussion", and original reply to you.
From your OP: "All posts MUST relate directly to the banlist, bans, unbans, and/or banlist policy. Comments about other Modern issues, grievances, or topics will be treated as spam."
As for posting on topic, particularly about twin, well it may be purely chance that modern went to ***** post twin and eldrazi bans. I believe that twin is very much why the format has gone to *****. The only reason the meta looked healthy originally post eldrazi ban was because people wanted to test out sword combo and AV. Now people realize they aren't as good as we thought they'd be so they've moved to better decks.
you realize modern looks like a freakin supermodel now compared to modern BEFORE the eldrazi ban, right?
I'm mean sure if you look at micro archetypes, but if you look at macro archetypes modern is a mess.
What is a "macro" archetype? Are you talking about "control" "aggro" "combo" etc? These terms are REALLY poor to describe the hugely varying lines of play that modern decks play. Is Infect aggro or Combo? Is scapeshift combo or control? Where do ramp decks slot into this? Is jund considered "control" if it's against a hyper aggressive deck, with its disruption and removal, slowing the game down? Where does tempo fall? Is dredge a combo deck or a aggro deck?
Hi, so I'm going to jump into this conversation saying that I've been playing delver decks in modern since before khans, they're my favorite decks, and that I'm really happy that grixis delver is doing do well now. But this format is not healthy at all.
People on modern forums everywhere want to argue semantics about what counts as interactive, but at the end of the day, the format is extremely extremely fast. I am not a salty ex twin player. Also, I do not want some sort of idealized all counterspells and draw spells "pure" control deck. But this format is too fast and something needs to be done about it. Ban aggro cards, unban mystic, unban twin, unban preordain while watching for combo, whatever it is, we need something. This format is not healthy. No one is really trying to grind out games at all, and top 8s are dominated by fast aggro and fast combo decks, with a couple fast tempo decks too. Jund is really the last true holdout for grinding out games, and that's not healthy. (Keep in mind that grixis delver, especially the version now being played, usually are weak to interactive metagames, so it's recent success is a sign of the rest of the meta's speed).
Wizards needs to spend more time paying attention to how modern works. We all kind of saw this coming since twin was originally banned and still nothings changed.
What is a "macro" archetype? Are you talking about "control" "aggro" "combo" etc? These terms are REALLY poor to describe the hugely varying lines of play that modern decks play. Is Infect aggro or Combo? Is scapeshift combo or control? Where do ramp decks slot into this? Is jund considered "control" if it's against a hyper aggressive deck, with its disruption and removal, slowing the game down? Where does tempo fall? Is dredge a combo deck or a aggro deck?
Yes, those are macro archetypes. These terms are no less poor than linear/nonlinear and proactive/reactive. When you combine all these terms you can get a better picture of where the format is at.
That's a fair argument considering some decks can have aspects of multiple archetypes. It's like the argument of are Twin and Scapeshift the same since they both were combo decks that tried to control the game. It's the case of it being a spectrum. Do we define ramp as it's own archetype outside of the traditional aggro, combo, midrange, control spectrum? It's really on the community, and not myself, to define the archetypes by looking at where decks exist on the spectrum.
What I would argue is that UWx and URx fair control decks are hurting. Nahiri struggles at times even being the best UWx/URx deck. I know we'll never have a 25/25/25/25 meta or a 20/20/20/20/20 meta if you argue ramp is it's own macro archetype, but the format can be better than it is right now.
Just because your a mod doesn't allow for you to make hyperbolic logical fallacies.
Pod was only Tier 0 during delver era. We don't have proof they would have kept the full Rhino build after the TC ban. We never saw the deck in a meta outside of TC delver meta. Twin has never been tier 0, so LOL to your argument there. Eldrazi definitely still would be tier 0.
Let's have an actually discussion and not just make generic off the wall statements please.
Look. I dont need a mod to know when someone says "if twin and pod werent banned, eldrazi wouldnt have been an issue." They are wring and it.
I also dont need to be a mod to stroll through your post history and see a ton of posts of you blindly defending twin or going off about on cast triggers and know that it doesnt matter what people say, its not going to be a discussion.
Firstly, what does my post history have to do with my post?
Secondly, I said absolutely nothing about twin needing to be unbanned in my post.
Also, at this point you're spamming by being off topic from the thread, so please all mighty mod why don't we stay on topic, "The ban list discussion", and original reply to you.
From your OP: "All posts MUST relate directly to the banlist, bans, unbans, and/or banlist policy. Comments about other Modern issues, grievances, or topics will be treated as spam."
As for posting on topic, particularly about twin, well it may be purely chance that modern went to ***** post twin and eldrazi bans. I believe that twin is very much why the format has gone to *****. The only reason the meta looked healthy originally post eldrazi ban was because people wanted to test out sword combo and AV. Now people realize they aren't as good as we thought they'd be so they've moved to better decks.
you realize modern looks like a freakin supermodel now compared to modern BEFORE the eldrazi ban, right?
I'm mean sure if you look at micro archetypes, but if you look at macro archetypes modern is a mess.
during eldrazi winter the archetypes were eldrazi and... eldrazi, yea it looks much better now
Look. I dont need a mod to know when someone says "if twin and pod werent banned, eldrazi wouldnt have been an issue." They are wring and it.
I also dont need to be a mod to stroll through your post history and see a ton of posts of you blindly defending twin or going off about on cast triggers and know that it doesnt matter what people say, its not going to be a discussion.
Firstly, what does my post history have to do with my post?
Secondly, I said absolutely nothing about twin needing to be unbanned in my post.
Also, at this point you're spamming by being off topic from the thread, so please all mighty mod why don't we stay on topic, "The ban list discussion", and original reply to you.
From your OP: "All posts MUST relate directly to the banlist, bans, unbans, and/or banlist policy. Comments about other Modern issues, grievances, or topics will be treated as spam."
As for posting on topic, particularly about twin, well it may be purely chance that modern went to ***** post twin and eldrazi bans. I believe that twin is very much why the format has gone to *****. The only reason the meta looked healthy originally post eldrazi ban was because people wanted to test out sword combo and AV. Now people realize they aren't as good as we thought they'd be so they've moved to better decks.
you realize modern looks like a freakin supermodel now compared to modern BEFORE the eldrazi ban, right?
I'm mean sure if you look at micro archetypes, but if you look at macro archetypes modern is a mess.
during eldrazi winter the archetypes were eldrazi and... eldrazi, yea it looks much better now
But Eldrazi had Aggro, Combo, Control and Midrange elements. I would argue that was more healthy from a macro standpoint.
4x misstep and whats the cut? I mean it would functionally slow them down a bunch and it would also make Decay and Terminate better beaters than they already are. I mean every one in this forum hates fast aggro and wants to put the breaks on it etc... Mental misstep would actually do that. Either they run 4 of them and slow down their deck with potentially dead reactive spells or they get their 1cc fast aggro critter countered. It isn't a instant slam dunk for Deaths shadow or infect and it really loses value if you don't have it in the first turns so its pretty much a 4 of if your going to run any. This would slow down each deck by default.
Infect would probably rather just run 4 of the hexproofing +2/+2 spell that just came out it does more of what infect wants to do protect infect creatures and counter a enemies spell/affect. It isn't even as good as spell pierce in that deck since that hits any counterable non-creature spell and not just bolt or path.
I always find it funny that people in this forum just disregard anything regardless of reality. I've watched and played in plenty of no banned list modern games and misstep isn't even that good in those formats. Very often the first thing boarded out. While it is a devastating spell in legacy in vintage, modern is no where near those formats in terms of 1cc spells defining the format. The format defining cards it does hit are things like bolt, infect elf, nearly every burn deck creature, every deaths shadow creature. This would literally do exactly what you want and slow those decks down, if they run 4 of them that is 4 less gas cards they get to run and control/midrange is much better equipped to simply make winning a misstep war feel like losing more so than a infect deck. I mean you are already on the "answer problems" plan if your mid-range or control so losing a misstep battle is much like losing a pump battle with either deck now except that misstep doesn't function as gas for their deck.
Modern is a format with very poor methods of gaining card advantage and the decks that have the least of it are very linear aggro decks.
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Jeskai is barely hanging on to it's Tier 1 status. Delver put one copy into the top 32 of a GP and happened to win it. You can't argue blue reactive strategies are in a healthy place. Yes, he whines a lot, but you would too if you had a $1800 deck ripped out of your hands and were told to go play a worse deck. I've been hit from 2 bans now and I'm in the same camp as him. Twin may have been a bandaid, but honestly I don't trust Wizards to fix the problems with the format and twin did just that even if it was a bandaid.
AV really isn't that good tbh. It's card disadvantage for 4 turns? 5 turns? for a chance to draw 3. Other cards would just be flat out better in the blue matchups, and most BGx pilots don't seem to find AV as being that bad for them.
Just because your a mod doesn't allow for you to make hyperbolic logical fallacies.
Pod was only Tier 0 during delver era. We don't have proof they would have kept the full Rhino build after the TC ban. We never saw the deck in a meta outside of TC delver meta. Twin has never been tier 0, so LOL to your argument there. Eldrazi definitely still would be tier 0.
Let's have an actually discussion and not just make generic off the wall statements please.
I am using them, they're just not nearly as good or enjoyable as they used to be. I would like to think it should be a goal to include good reactive decks to the format; kind of like how the end of 2015 was described as extremely healthy. I hate playing aggro and I'm not a fan of cluttered board states. I absolutely love tempo plays and incremental control. Currently, that kind of archetype is not a successful option in the format. Additionally, liquidating my inventory of URx staples to buy into another deck is a horrendously stupid idea. Besides the depreciation factor (which has seen a 5-15% drop across many of the cards), the costs and fees associated with doing so would combine with the market value drop for a total loss between 30-40%. I would rather play with what I have than lose lots of money building and playing something I don't even really like that much in the first place.
I made that comment specifically because Delver literally showed up nowhere else in the top 32 of any GP that weekend (only 1 other Delver deck in all top 64s at #41 in Indy) and 0 copies in the top 32 of the following SCG Open. That's a lucky player having a lucky day combined with his individual skill. If the deck truly had the power to compete consistently, it would have shown up just slightly more often than once or twice out of more than 224 top decks from three GPs and an SCG Open combined. Additionally, Jeskai has been hanging by a thread without putting up any noteworthy successes for several months.
Maybe so. I'm playing Grixis Delver right now (and begrudgingly cutting counterspells for Pyromancers, Probes, and extra burn), and it can be amazingly enjoyable when I play up against a similarly interactive deck. What I can't stand is when I sit down and a match is essentially decided in less than 15 minutes and revolves entirely around "did I draw exactly X card at exactly the right time?" That is not fun or entertaining or enjoyable or fulfilling. It is bland, empty, boring, and a waste of my time. Most of the top decks in Modern only care about racing you and killing you as quickly and efficiently as possible. If they run any interaction at all, it is usually to protect their ability to kill you or it's stapled to a 4/4 and a 5/5 that can land as early as turns 2 and 3. I would love playing against Jund and Grixis all day because, win or lose, they would at least be lengthy and enjoyable games.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
"Most of the top decks in Modern only care about racing you and killing you as quickly and efficiently as possible."
I second this, I may be playing online which isn't the best indicator of a formats meta-game, but 80% of decks im facing are literally racing with little interaction. it makes no sense to play a fair honest deck in this game anymore. you need a combo in your interactive deck or you wont perform well because there is too much to answer.
twin was what blue needed to compete in this game and police linearity properly.
decks playing:
none
In that case, it's clear that our perspectives differ (not that it was particularly murky before). My Amulet Bloom deck got the axe and I certainly didn't cry about it. I'm not constantly calling for a Summer Bloom unban. I tried to brew with Amulet for awhile and then I sold my cards and I built something else. Now I'm playing TURNS (yes, a tier 3 BLUE combo/control deck!) of all things and I'm loving it. If your perspective is that you're going to be salty until Twin gets unbanned then you'd better buy a silo.
1. I have been. Commander is an amazingly fun format and I have cobbled together multiple decks for my playgroup and have had more fun doing that than playing Modern all year long. It's just unfortunate because it's a casual format and I also enjoy the skill and intensity of competitive Magic at the Modern power level.
2. It is both not popular and not powerful. It is a swingy deck that favors good draws.
3. Luckily I am bombarded by grad school work and have very little time to actually play these days anyway, so given that the few experiences I have had in the past few months have been less than stellar, I am also not losing sleep over not being able to play as much as I used to.
What are these multiple event-winning blue decks and what events are they winning? The 1 deck that only had 1 other copy among over 200 other top decks in the four biggest events of the past couple months? Also, if you don't like what I have to say, you are free to put me on ignore. It's clear I am not the only one who has these opinions about the format, I just happen to be one of the loudest.
Good! Then the games would be decided by skill and play choices instead of dice rolls, top decks, and matchup lotteries. Also, a negative matchup G1 plus a 50/50 G2/3 is still a negative matchup overall. Just because it "isn't as bad as it could be" doesn't mean its a good matchup by any means. Jund is by no means a picnic for ANY Twin player, and now with Bant Eldrazi, that makes TWO annoying and difficult matchups for the deck, AV or not. But then again, there are many here who do not see the threat Eldrazi still poses because the bombardment of linear degeneracy overall is hiding it.
One of the differences could be that literally everybody believed Bloom was going to be banned. It was a busted broken deck that won early and through multiple levels of disruption. It did not grow in meta percentage because once it was obvious how powerful it was, it was also obvious it was going to get banned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBPVuiI2jgE
And I've been brewing with URx cards for 10 months now. Grixis Delver is the most enjoyable deck I have found. My salt has more to do with the state of a format that suppresses the kinds of decks rather than specifically Twin itself. If you've got the answer to slow down linearity and promote interaction without bringing back Twin, I'd love it if you passed the ideas along to Wizards. It just seems to me that the quickest, easiest, and most obvious solution to promote what was once considered one of the best and most healthy states of the format is to put Twin back into Modern.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I personally don't like these examples. Elves won the recent SCG Invitational, that doesn't mean it's necessarily god tier either, or representative of how good the deck is. Delver could win the next 4 Grand Prix, and it would still be in a bad position based on meta percentage if it was the only deck to be in the top 32 containing blue.
So I count 3 strategies that are dedicated to reacting to their opponent with countermagic and 29 other decks that don't even want to bother with playing permission in their maindeck to react, is that a healthy representation of the metagame? Wafo-Tapa being the best control master in the world can't even top 8 the MOCS with blue counterspells. Is that really a healthy representation of control as an archetype? Like I see so many other Aggro decks that it's extremely hard to ignore the fact that Aggro > the rest of the format. And I would consider this event to be of a higher level than a GP.
The format is modern magic, which means it has modern design philosophies. Permission has no place in the new world order.
No, I really don't. On the plus side, MaRo is always asking about that at our weekly poker game. When I tell him about the latest developments it will probably go like this:
MaRo: "Is he still mad?"
Me: "Wha-? Uh, no."
MaRo: "No?"
Me: "No, he's on... uh, Delver."
MaRo: "Delver!? That's great! That means-- Wait, why did you pause when you said that?"
Me: "Um, no reason..."
MaRo: "He's still mad, isn't he? C'mon, we're best friends. You can tell me."
Me: "Yeah, okay, he's still mad."
MaRo: "Dammit! I knew this charade wouldn't last for long. It looks like we've got no other choice. We can't have Modern without Splinter Twin."
AF: "But I think if we just take a Standard set and reprint Countersp--"
MaRo: "Put a lid on it, Forsythe!! I don't pay you to think! Eat your chips."
AF: "Grrr..."
MaRo: "Tell him he was right all along. Send him a couple of free cases and my apologies. How could I have been so STUPID?"
Look. I dont need a mod to know when someone says "if twin and pod werent banned, eldrazi wouldnt have been an issue." They are wrong.
I also dont need to be a mod to stroll through your post history and see a ton of posts of you blindly defending twin or going off about on cast triggers and know that it doesnt matter what people say, its not going to be a discussion.
That is an extremely misleading representation of those results, i count 14 decks whos primary gameplan is to interact. Counterspellz are not the only way to interact
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Firstly, what does my post history have to do with my post?
Secondly, I said absolutely nothing about twin needing to be unbanned in my post.
Also, at this point you're spamming by being off topic from the thread, so please all mighty mod why don't we stay on topic, "The ban list discussion", and original reply to you.
From your OP: "All posts MUST relate directly to the banlist, bans, unbans, and/or banlist policy. Comments about other Modern issues, grievances, or topics will be treated as spam."
As for posting on topic, particularly about twin, well it may be purely chance that modern went to ***** post twin and eldrazi bans. I believe that twin is very much why the format has gone to *****. The only reason the meta looked healthy originally post eldrazi ban was because people wanted to test out sword combo and AV. Now people realize they aren't as good as we thought they'd be so they've moved to better decks.
you realize modern looks like a freakin supermodel now compared to modern BEFORE the eldrazi ban, right?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I'm mean sure if you look at micro archetypes, but if you look at macro archetypes modern is a mess.
My H/W list
People on modern forums everywhere want to argue semantics about what counts as interactive, but at the end of the day, the format is extremely extremely fast. I am not a salty ex twin player. Also, I do not want some sort of idealized all counterspells and draw spells "pure" control deck. But this format is too fast and something needs to be done about it. Ban aggro cards, unban mystic, unban twin, unban preordain while watching for combo, whatever it is, we need something. This format is not healthy. No one is really trying to grind out games at all, and top 8s are dominated by fast aggro and fast combo decks, with a couple fast tempo decks too. Jund is really the last true holdout for grinding out games, and that's not healthy. (Keep in mind that grixis delver, especially the version now being played, usually are weak to interactive metagames, so it's recent success is a sign of the rest of the meta's speed).
Wizards needs to spend more time paying attention to how modern works. We all kind of saw this coming since twin was originally banned and still nothings changed.
Yes, those are macro archetypes. These terms are no less poor than linear/nonlinear and proactive/reactive. When you combine all these terms you can get a better picture of where the format is at.
That's a fair argument considering some decks can have aspects of multiple archetypes. It's like the argument of are Twin and Scapeshift the same since they both were combo decks that tried to control the game. It's the case of it being a spectrum. Do we define ramp as it's own archetype outside of the traditional aggro, combo, midrange, control spectrum? It's really on the community, and not myself, to define the archetypes by looking at where decks exist on the spectrum.
What I would argue is that UWx and URx fair control decks are hurting. Nahiri struggles at times even being the best UWx/URx deck. I know we'll never have a 25/25/25/25 meta or a 20/20/20/20/20 meta if you argue ramp is it's own macro archetype, but the format can be better than it is right now.
during eldrazi winter the archetypes were eldrazi and... eldrazi, yea it looks much better now
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
But Eldrazi had Aggro, Combo, Control and Midrange elements. I would argue that was more healthy from a macro standpoint.
Infect would probably rather just run 4 of the hexproofing +2/+2 spell that just came out it does more of what infect wants to do protect infect creatures and counter a enemies spell/affect. It isn't even as good as spell pierce in that deck since that hits any counterable non-creature spell and not just bolt or path.
I always find it funny that people in this forum just disregard anything regardless of reality. I've watched and played in plenty of no banned list modern games and misstep isn't even that good in those formats. Very often the first thing boarded out. While it is a devastating spell in legacy in vintage, modern is no where near those formats in terms of 1cc spells defining the format. The format defining cards it does hit are things like bolt, infect elf, nearly every burn deck creature, every deaths shadow creature. This would literally do exactly what you want and slow those decks down, if they run 4 of them that is 4 less gas cards they get to run and control/midrange is much better equipped to simply make winning a misstep war feel like losing more so than a infect deck. I mean you are already on the "answer problems" plan if your mid-range or control so losing a misstep battle is much like losing a pump battle with either deck now except that misstep doesn't function as gas for their deck.
Modern is a format with very poor methods of gaining card advantage and the decks that have the least of it are very linear aggro decks.