GUYS I KNOW HOW TO PUNCH AGGRO AND HELP CONTROL: MENTAL MISSTEP!
It goes into Death's shadow and Infect decks, so you can't bolt or path their beaters.
Don't troll, please.
But you have your own Mental Misstep.
Aggro decks wont run many Missteps because holding a counter for your Bolts is not their gameplan.
On the other hand Mental Misstep will surely help vs them, as speed and absence of effective answers is what control-strategies lack nowadays. And there is a ton of 1cc spells in aggro decks.
This change will shift metagame to control and midrange decks for sure
Firstly, what does my post history have to do with my post?
Secondly, I said absolutely nothing about twin needing to be unbanned in my post.
Also, at this point you're spamming by being off topic from the thread, so please all mighty mod why don't we stay on topic, "The ban list discussion", and original reply to you.
From your OP: "All posts MUST relate directly to the banlist, bans, unbans, and/or banlist policy. Comments about other Modern issues, grievances, or topics will be treated as spam."
As for posting on topic, particularly about twin, well it may be purely chance that modern went to ***** post twin and eldrazi bans. I believe that twin is very much why the format has gone to *****. The only reason the meta looked healthy originally post eldrazi ban was because people wanted to test out sword combo and AV. Now people realize they aren't as good as we thought they'd be so they've moved to better decks.
you realize modern looks like a freakin supermodel now compared to modern BEFORE the eldrazi ban, right?
I'm mean sure if you look at micro archetypes, but if you look at macro archetypes modern is a mess.
during eldrazi winter the archetypes were eldrazi and... eldrazi, yea it looks much better now
But Eldrazi had Aggro, Combo, Control and Midrange elements. I would argue that was more healthy from a macro standpoint.
If you think eldrazi modern was in any way more healthy than current modern than i have no more to discuss with you. It was the most undiverse, degenerate period modern has ever seen
Mental Misstep is serious misstep on the Wizards' side. The card is format warping. If unbanned this would lead to aggro decks playing it too and that way they would get a nice way to deal with Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile as main removal against them. This wouldn't make any help but only set up another problem, bigger than we have now (if we do at all) with linear decks.
I disagree, I think it would have the opposite affect. It would give mid-range/control decks a turn 0 reply to turn 1 plays from linear aggro decks and if those decks choose to play it as well it would lead to them nerfing the speed and power they have for a potentially dead card. Does Deaths shadow or infect want to see hands with 2-3 of these in them? I don't think so. The biggest complaint against these decks is that they "don't care about what your doing and just gold fish" misstep would one way or the other force them to care and slow down and lower the odds of having the "nuts" in the opening hand. It would push the format to favor decks running 2cc and up spells simply for the "blank your misstep" factor and most linear decks simply cannot afford the loss in speed and to functionally keep hands that might be potentially dead in the face of mana leak, Abrupt Decay, Terminate, pyroclasm etc....
If anything it would for sure make the format much more grindy and mid-rangy not more linear.
Mental Misstep is serious misstep on the Wizards' side. The card is format warping. If unbanned this would lead to aggro decks playing it too and that way they would get a nice way to deal with Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile as main removal against them. This wouldn't make any help but only set up another problem, bigger than we have now (if we do at all) with linear decks.
I disagree, I think it would have the opposite affect. It would give mid-range/control decks a turn 0 reply to turn 1 plays from linear aggro decks and if those decks choose to play it as well it would lead to them nerfing the speed and power they have for a potentially dead card. Does Deaths shadow or infect want to see hands with 2-3 of these in them? I don't think so. The biggest complaint against these decks is that they "don't care about what your doing and just gold fish" misstep would one way or the other force them to care and slow down and lower the odds of having the "nuts" in the opening hand. It would push the format to favor decks running 2cc and up spells simply for the "blank your misstep" factor and most linear decks simply cannot afford the loss in speed and to functionally keep hands that might be potentially dead in the face of mana leak, Abrupt Decay, Terminate, pyroclasm etc....
If anything it would for sure make the format much more grindy and mid-rangy not more linear.
Both of those decks have an easy 4 of to drop in Gitaxian Probe. When you can't even safely bolt the t1 glistener elf, the deck gets stronger. Countering their t1 play does so little when these decks are so redundant
To give more context to the discussion, as old as this quote is:
Of blue cards that are legal in Modern, Mental Misstep is the most played in Legacy, and it also has one of the more damaging effects on Modern by sitting on beatdown decks that want to start on turn one. We chose to ban it rather than put that much pressure on beatdown decks.
I guess it goes two ways: either it 1) hates aggro out of the meta, perhaps too hard, or 2) everybody plays it, as in +60%. Personally, neither of those scenarios seems better than the current one. Even if you believe it suppresses aggro, wouldn't it be too much? It reminds me of when people ask for Force and Daze and I just shake my head thinking of Infect. The difference is that Misstep doesn't force you into playing a blue. Again, the answers lies on new cards, not the banlist - at least realistic banlist changes.
Edit: like somebody here said: we need a chisel, not a sledgehammer.
Mental Misstep is serious misstep on the Wizards' side. The card is format warping. If unbanned this would lead to aggro decks playing it too and that way they would get a nice way to deal with Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile as main removal against them. This wouldn't make any help but only set up another problem, bigger than we have now (if we do at all) with linear decks.
I disagree, I think it would have the opposite affect. It would give mid-range/control decks a turn 0 reply to turn 1 plays from linear aggro decks and if those decks choose to play it as well it would lead to them nerfing the speed and power they have for a potentially dead card. Does Deaths shadow or infect want to see hands with 2-3 of these in them? I don't think so. The biggest complaint against these decks is that they "don't care about what your doing and just gold fish" misstep would one way or the other force them to care and slow down and lower the odds of having the "nuts" in the opening hand. It would push the format to favor decks running 2cc and up spells simply for the "blank your misstep" factor and most linear decks simply cannot afford the loss in speed and to functionally keep hands that might be potentially dead in the face of mana leak, Abrupt Decay, Terminate, pyroclasm etc....
If anything it would for sure make the format much more grindy and mid-rangy not more linear.
Both of those decks have an easy 4 of to drop in Gitaxian Probe. When you can't even safely bolt the t1 glistener elf, the deck gets stronger. Countering their t1 play does so little when these decks are so redundant
actually deaths shadow loves Gitaxian probe it cycles and hits the yard fueling become immense faster, eats a little life. You will not be able to keep a hand with multiple missteps and "combo" off with TBR, you can do that with Swiftspear 2 lands a TBR and the bunch of probes.
You would use it to counter the Glistener elf not and again if you go bolt and they go misstep if your on mid-range control you should have either your own misstep or another cheap removal spell. Also Infect relies a lot on Gitaxian probe to know if their protection is enough, they will often hold probe on the turn they plan to Become immense to avoid walking into a removal or double removal spell.
I'm not saying that these decks would want to run it but they would slow down if they did and that will favor mid-range/control no matter what. It would lead to Infect and Deaths Shadow and other similar decks keeping garbage hands more often. It simply doesn't do anything proactive; probe actually does proactive things in those decks. Misstep if they choose to run them would force them into having cards that are only reactionary and force them into the position of playing more interactively.
I would think that these types of decks would rather keep more threat/combo enablers than to run a playset of potentially do nothing cards in fear of cards they don't even fear that much now. I've had plenty of bolts nerfed by the spells they already run; and that is the problem that people have playing against them the current answers are ill equipped for dealing with them. The new Vines light is more worrisome in Infect than metal misstep would be. MM does not represent a increase in the clock and would actually work in the control / mid-range decks favor every time since decks like DS and Infect don't have ways of regaining card advantage and both are relying on reaching a critical mass of certain types of spells. MM is not the kind of spell that either deck wants to be casting if it could help it precisely because it slows their plan down and the longer the game goes the less likely it is that they will be able to go under the mid-range/control player with a fast victory.
Mental Misstep is serious misstep on the Wizards' side. The card is format warping. If unbanned this would lead to aggro decks playing it too and that way they would get a nice way to deal with Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile as main removal against them. This wouldn't make any help but only set up another problem, bigger than we have now (if we do at all) with linear decks.
I disagree, I think it would have the opposite affect. It would give mid-range/control decks a turn 0 reply to turn 1 plays from linear aggro decks and if those decks choose to play it as well it would lead to them nerfing the speed and power they have for a potentially dead card. Does Deaths shadow or infect want to see hands with 2-3 of these in them? I don't think so. The biggest complaint against these decks is that they "don't care about what your doing and just gold fish" misstep would one way or the other force them to care and slow down and lower the odds of having the "nuts" in the opening hand. It would push the format to favor decks running 2cc and up spells simply for the "blank your misstep" factor and most linear decks simply cannot afford the loss in speed and to functionally keep hands that might be potentially dead in the face of mana leak, Abrupt Decay, Terminate, pyroclasm etc....
If anything it would for sure make the format much more grindy and mid-rangy not more linear.
Both of those decks have an easy 4 of to drop in Gitaxian Probe. When you can't even safely bolt the t1 glistener elf, the deck gets stronger. Countering their t1 play does so little when these decks are so redundant
actually deaths shadow loves Gitaxian probe it cycles and hits the yard fueling become immense faster, eats a little life. You will not be able to keep a hand with multiple missteps and "combo" off with TBR, you can do that with Swiftspear 2 lands a TBR and the bunch of probes.
You would use it to counter the Glistener elf not and again if you go bolt and they go misstep if your on mid-range control you should have either your own misstep or another cheap removal spell. Also Infect relies a lot on Gitaxian probe to know if their protection is enough, they will often hold probe on the turn they plan to Become immense to avoid walking into a removal or double removal spell.
I'm not saying that these decks would want to run it but they would slow down if they did and that will favor mid-range/control no matter what. It would lead to Infect and Deaths Shadow and other similar decks keeping garbage hands more often. It simply doesn't do anything proactive; probe actually does proactive things in those decks. Misstep if they choose to run them would force them into having cards that are only reactionary and force them into the position of playing more interactively.
I would think that these types of decks would rather keep more threat/combo enablers than to run a playset of potentially do nothing cards in fear of cards they don't even fear that much now. I've had plenty of bolts nerfed by the spells they already run; and that is the problem that people have playing against them the current answers are ill equipped for dealing with them. The new Vines light is more worrisome in Infect than metal misstep would be. MM does not represent a increase in the clock and would actually work in the control / mid-range decks favor every time since decks like DS and Infect don't have ways of regaining card advantage and both are relying on reaching a critical mass of certain types of spells. MM is not the kind of spell that either deck wants to be casting if it could help it precisely because it slows their plan down and the longer the game goes the less likely it is that they will be able to go under the mid-range/control player with a fast victory.
Alright dude, i can see this discussion is going nowhere, so heres what ibgot for you: you can continue ranting about misstep, have everyone constantly shooting it down, and then we will continue to have WotC never unban it. Alternatively, you can go and test 600-700 matches with it for us, present the evidence, and then have a real serious discussion about how wizards will still never unban it. Souns good? Cool, see you when testing is done
Mental Misstep is serious misstep on the Wizards' side. The card is format warping. If unbanned this would lead to aggro decks playing it too and that way they would get a nice way to deal with Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile as main removal against them. This wouldn't make any help but only set up another problem, bigger than we have now (if we do at all) with linear decks.
I disagree, I think it would have the opposite affect. It would give mid-range/control decks a turn 0 reply to turn 1 plays from linear aggro decks and if those decks choose to play it as well it would lead to them nerfing the speed and power they have for a potentially dead card. Does Deaths shadow or infect want to see hands with 2-3 of these in them? I don't think so. The biggest complaint against these decks is that they "don't care about what your doing and just gold fish" misstep would one way or the other force them to care and slow down and lower the odds of having the "nuts" in the opening hand. It would push the format to favor decks running 2cc and up spells simply for the "blank your misstep" factor and most linear decks simply cannot afford the loss in speed and to functionally keep hands that might be potentially dead in the face of mana leak, Abrupt Decay, Terminate, pyroclasm etc....
If anything it would for sure make the format much more grindy and mid-rangy not more linear.
Both of those decks have an easy 4 of to drop in Gitaxian Probe. When you can't even safely bolt the t1 glistener elf, the deck gets stronger. Countering their t1 play does so little when these decks are so redundant
actually deaths shadow loves Gitaxian probe it cycles and hits the yard fueling become immense faster, eats a little life. You will not be able to keep a hand with multiple missteps and "combo" off with TBR, you can do that with Swiftspear 2 lands a TBR and the bunch of probes.
You would use it to counter the Glistener elf not and again if you go bolt and they go misstep if your on mid-range control you should have either your own misstep or another cheap removal spell. Also Infect relies a lot on Gitaxian probe to know if their protection is enough, they will often hold probe on the turn they plan to Become immense to avoid walking into a removal or double removal spell.
I'm not saying that these decks would want to run it but they would slow down if they did and that will favor mid-range/control no matter what. It would lead to Infect and Deaths Shadow and other similar decks keeping garbage hands more often. It simply doesn't do anything proactive; probe actually does proactive things in those decks. Misstep if they choose to run them would force them into having cards that are only reactionary and force them into the position of playing more interactively.
I would think that these types of decks would rather keep more threat/combo enablers than to run a playset of potentially do nothing cards in fear of cards they don't even fear that much now. I've had plenty of bolts nerfed by the spells they already run; and that is the problem that people have playing against them the current answers are ill equipped for dealing with them. The new Vines light is more worrisome in Infect than metal misstep would be. MM does not represent a increase in the clock and would actually work in the control / mid-range decks favor every time since decks like DS and Infect don't have ways of regaining card advantage and both are relying on reaching a critical mass of certain types of spells. MM is not the kind of spell that either deck wants to be casting if it could help it precisely because it slows their plan down and the longer the game goes the less likely it is that they will be able to go under the mid-range/control player with a fast victory.
Alright dude, i can see this discussion is going nowhere, so heres what ibgot for you: you can continue ranting about misstep, have everyone constantly shooting it down, and then we will continue to have WotC never unban it. Alternatively, you can go and test 600-700 matches with it for us, present the evidence, and then have a real serious discussion about how wizards will still never unban it. Souns good? Cool, see you when testing is done
Um no, that is a fundamental logical fallacy just a application of circular reasoning. Your simply asserting that it would make those decks better than any thing under the sun and I am saying your wrong. Your example of a swap for probe doesn't hold up both decks actually want probe for multiple reasons that misstep doesn't fill. WotC banned the card for exactly the opposite reason your implying; because it actually quashed decks that relied on 1 drops it didn't really help them. This was very bad for Legacy and Vintage but again Modern isn't a format defined by 1 drops like those.
I play with it frequently again in no ban modern and it isn't that good there.
I wasn't ranting I was simply saying that disregarding it outright is illogical. If slowing down the format and hindering decks like burn,infect,Deaths Shadow Zoo is what you want to do then misstep would actually help achieve that goal. Do I think that it will be unbanned no. But people talked about AV in a very similar way while it was banned since the birth of the format, claiming it would warp the format and every deck that didn't run it would just be buried under a flood of card advantage. Wizards own justification for the banning of it at the outset of the format was that it was to tough on beat down deck which infect and DSZoo would fall under.http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/welcome-modern-world-2011-08-12
So actually I think it would be on you to show why this isn't true.
It is a card that would likely require a re-banning once it found a home in a better, more degenerate shell than those "slowing down" the format would. It restricts deck building decisions as well which is something WoTC doesnt like in the format.
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U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
I disagree, I think it would have the opposite affect. It would give mid-range/control decks a turn 0 reply to turn 1 plays from linear aggro decks and if those decks choose to play it as well it would lead to them nerfing the speed and power they have for a potentially dead card. Does Deaths shadow or infect want to see hands with 2-3 of these in them? I don't think so. The biggest complaint against these decks is that they "don't care about what your doing and just gold fish" misstep would one way or the other force them to care and slow down and lower the odds of having the "nuts" in the opening hand. It would push the format to favor decks running 2cc and up spells simply for the "blank your misstep" factor and most linear decks simply cannot afford the loss in speed and to functionally keep hands that might be potentially dead in the face of mana leak, Abrupt Decay, Terminate, pyroclasm etc....
If anything it would for sure make the format much more grindy and mid-rangy not more linear.
Both of those decks have an easy 4 of to drop in Gitaxian Probe. When you can't even safely bolt the t1 glistener elf, the deck gets stronger. Countering their t1 play does so little when these decks are so redundant
actually deaths shadow loves Gitaxian probe it cycles and hits the yard fueling become immense faster, eats a little life. You will not be able to keep a hand with multiple missteps and "combo" off with TBR, you can do that with Swiftspear 2 lands a TBR and the bunch of probes.
You would use it to counter the Glistener elf not and again if you go bolt and they go misstep if your on mid-range control you should have either your own misstep or another cheap removal spell. Also Infect relies a lot on Gitaxian probe to know if their protection is enough, they will often hold probe on the turn they plan to Become immense to avoid walking into a removal or double removal spell.
I'm not saying that these decks would want to run it but they would slow down if they did and that will favor mid-range/control no matter what. It would lead to Infect and Deaths Shadow and other similar decks keeping garbage hands more often. It simply doesn't do anything proactive; probe actually does proactive things in those decks. Misstep if they choose to run them would force them into having cards that are only reactionary and force them into the position of playing more interactively.
I would think that these types of decks would rather keep more threat/combo enablers than to run a playset of potentially do nothing cards in fear of cards they don't even fear that much now. I've had plenty of bolts nerfed by the spells they already run; and that is the problem that people have playing against them the current answers are ill equipped for dealing with them. The new Vines light is more worrisome in Infect than metal misstep would be. MM does not represent a increase in the clock and would actually work in the control / mid-range decks favor every time since decks like DS and Infect don't have ways of regaining card advantage and both are relying on reaching a critical mass of certain types of spells. MM is not the kind of spell that either deck wants to be casting if it could help it precisely because it slows their plan down and the longer the game goes the less likely it is that they will be able to go under the mid-range/control player with a fast victory.
Alright dude, i can see this discussion is going nowhere, so heres what ibgot for you: you can continue ranting about misstep, have everyone constantly shooting it down, and then we will continue to have WotC never unban it. Alternatively, you can go and test 600-700 matches with it for us, present the evidence, and then have a real serious discussion about how wizards will still never unban it. Souns good? Cool, see you when testing is done
Um no, that is a fundamental logical fallacy just a application of circular reasoning. Your simply asserting that it would make those decks better than any thing under the sun and I am saying your wrong. Your example of a swap for probe doesn't hold up both decks actually want probe for multiple reasons that misstep doesn't fill. WotC banned the card for exactly the opposite reason your implying; because it actually quashed decks that relied on 1 drops it didn't really help them. This was very bad for Legacy and Vintage but again Modern isn't a format defined by 1 drops like those.
I play with it frequently again in no ban modern and it isn't that good there.
I wasn't ranting I was simply saying that disregarding it outright is illogical. If slowing down the format and hindering decks like burn,infect,Deaths Shadow Zoo is what you want to do then misstep would actually help achieve that goal. Do I think that it will be unbanned no. But people talked about AV in a very similar way while it was banned since the birth of the format, claiming it would warp the format and every deck that didn't run it would just be buried under a flood of card advantage. Wizards own justification for the banning of it at the outset of the format was that it was to tough on beat down deck which infect and DSZoo would fall under.http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/welcome-modern-world-2011-08-12
So actually I think it would be on you to show why this isn't true.
Any unban talk is on the proposer of the unban, as WotC already expressed they feel the card is not fit for the format, just as any ban is on the proposer of the ban as WotC has shown they feel the card is fine in the format.
Your experience with no banlist modern is just as credible as my experiences with birthing pod in EDH, they are both completely different formats than the one being discussed here, and both have no high level tournaments that encourage people to "break" the format
The example of probe swap is simply a suggestion, no way concrete. People like you ripping apart arguments from tiny things like this and ignoring the core are the reason i normally refuse to extend such circumstancial evidence as that. Suggesting infect wouldnt just run the card, whatever they would cut, is just as ridiculous as srguing that the deck has ever cared about card advantage.
In vintage and legacy, the problem was not beatdown decks, the problem was everyone running the card creating 56 card decks. The main flaw of misstep is that the best answer to misstep is, well, misstep.
So once again, i await your testing with the card to show it doesnt just
A) help decks like infect more than fsir decks
And
B) create a 56 card format
Until then, i am done discussing this with you as it leads nowhere productive, i prefer to discuss unbans that are not only feasible that WotC would unban but also arent completely ridiculous cards for the format
It is a card that would likely require a re-banning once it found a home in a better, more degenerate shell than those "slowing down" the format would. It restricts deck building decisions as well which is something WoTC doesnt like in the format.
No reason to think that it would find some supreme shell that it would just break everything with. Modern has always been defined by 2cc cards not 1cc, it isn't legacy. I think it would see lots of play and would probably push jund/junk back to the best deck in the format bar none. I'm just saying that the reasons WotC banned it out right is because it would hinder the very kind of strategies that everyone in this forum is complaining about non-stop. WotC also thought that AV in combination with spell snare would for sure give us a very oppressive U based control deck, still waiting for it to find the perfect shell I guess.
How about WotC stated that the card was banned for doing exactly the opposite of what your claiming it would. it would hurt decks relying on 1cc not help. http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/welcome-modern-world-2011-08-12 so no it would be on you to invalidate the justification for the ban in the first place. Simply making up reasons for why it is banned doesn't change the reality of the stated reasons for the banning. Conventional wisdom since the start of the format was the AV unbanning would give us a super oppressive Blue control deck when paired with spell snare hasn't happened.
I would like for you to explain how any card that answers the boogie man decks of the format (assuming they are Infect and DSZoo) wouldn't instantly create a 56 card format and place heavy deck construction restraints on players? Seems like any card that helps mid-range/control against those decks will instantly invalidate any mid-range or control deck not in the proper colors to run this hypothetical card.
I see people writing that Jund is fine or even too good right now, it`s one of the few interactive decks and so on... and it just doesn`t match up with my experience lately. I`ve been a die-hard Jund player for a few years now, I love the deck, but a few months ago I shelved it and started playing something better against fast, linear, non-interactive decks because I just kept losing, and I feel that the meta is very bad for it right now. I should have changed decks sooner, but I stuck with it because of bias, and I think that a lot of players still do. I think Jund is overrepresented right now compared to its viability.
I did a good/medium/bad matchup breakdown of a huge local tournament not too long ago, and I ended up at something like 20%/25%/55%. My best matchups were Infect, Burn, Merfolk and Affinity, and basically nothing else. Affinity and Burn aren`t even great, they`re just good and fine respectively. I haven`t seen a Merfolk deck in months. My local meta is overrun with Jeskai Nahiri, GR Tron and Eldrazi, all terrible matchups. Then you have the Valakut decks and Dredge, which are both also completely horrible, and Ad Nauseam which is also very bad.
I`m not here to complain. And I don`t expect any sympathy for BG/x or anything, as the archetype has been one of the best ones in the format for a long time. Jund players are not entitled to have the best deck. And I`m not saying that it`s unplayable either, I`m just saying that it is not good. I wanted to share my experience to balance out what I`m reading in this thread, that the format is "all these fast, linear decks + Jund as the only viable non-linear, interactive option". In my experience we barely even have that right now. If I hadn`t found another fair, interactive deck that is actually good against all these solitaire decks, I`d probably be playing some fast combo deck myself, most likely Infect. And keep in mind this is coming from a die hard Jund player, it took a lot of losses to persuade me into playing something else. I just hope I`m ever tempted to switch back at some point.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Both of those decks have an easy 4 of to drop in Gitaxian Probe. When you can't even safely bolt the t1 glistener elf, the deck gets stronger. Countering their t1 play does so little when these decks are so redundant
actually deaths shadow loves Gitaxian probe it cycles and hits the yard fueling become immense faster, eats a little life. You will not be able to keep a hand with multiple missteps and "combo" off with TBR, you can do that with Swiftspear 2 lands a TBR and the bunch of probes.
You would use it to counter the Glistener elf not and again if you go bolt and they go misstep if your on mid-range control you should have either your own misstep or another cheap removal spell. Also Infect relies a lot on Gitaxian probe to know if their protection is enough, they will often hold probe on the turn they plan to Become immense to avoid walking into a removal or double removal spell.
I'm not saying that these decks would want to run it but they would slow down if they did and that will favor mid-range/control no matter what. It would lead to Infect and Deaths Shadow and other similar decks keeping garbage hands more often. It simply doesn't do anything proactive; probe actually does proactive things in those decks. Misstep if they choose to run them would force them into having cards that are only reactionary and force them into the position of playing more interactively.
I would think that these types of decks would rather keep more threat/combo enablers than to run a playset of potentially do nothing cards in fear of cards they don't even fear that much now. I've had plenty of bolts nerfed by the spells they already run; and that is the problem that people have playing against them the current answers are ill equipped for dealing with them. The new Vines light is more worrisome in Infect than metal misstep would be. MM does not represent a increase in the clock and would actually work in the control / mid-range decks favor every time since decks like DS and Infect don't have ways of regaining card advantage and both are relying on reaching a critical mass of certain types of spells. MM is not the kind of spell that either deck wants to be casting if it could help it precisely because it slows their plan down and the longer the game goes the less likely it is that they will be able to go under the mid-range/control player with a fast victory.
Alright dude, i can see this discussion is going nowhere, so heres what ibgot for you: you can continue ranting about misstep, have everyone constantly shooting it down, and then we will continue to have WotC never unban it. Alternatively, you can go and test 600-700 matches with it for us, present the evidence, and then have a real serious discussion about how wizards will still never unban it. Souns good? Cool, see you when testing is done
Um no, that is a fundamental logical fallacy just a application of circular reasoning. Your simply asserting that it would make those decks better than any thing under the sun and I am saying your wrong. Your example of a swap for probe doesn't hold up both decks actually want probe for multiple reasons that misstep doesn't fill. WotC banned the card for exactly the opposite reason your implying; because it actually quashed decks that relied on 1 drops it didn't really help them. This was very bad for Legacy and Vintage but again Modern isn't a format defined by 1 drops like those.
I play with it frequently again in no ban modern and it isn't that good there.
I wasn't ranting I was simply saying that disregarding it outright is illogical. If slowing down the format and hindering decks like burn,infect,Deaths Shadow Zoo is what you want to do then misstep would actually help achieve that goal. Do I think that it will be unbanned no. But people talked about AV in a very similar way while it was banned since the birth of the format, claiming it would warp the format and every deck that didn't run it would just be buried under a flood of card advantage. Wizards own justification for the banning of it at the outset of the format was that it was to tough on beat down deck which infect and DSZoo would fall under.http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/welcome-modern-world-2011-08-12
So actually I think it would be on you to show why this isn't true.
Any unban talk is on the proposer of the unban, as WotC already expressed they feel the card is not fit for the format, just as any ban is on the proposer of the ban as WotC has shown they feel the card is fine in the format.
Your experience with no banlist modern is just as credible as my experiences with birthing pod in EDH, they are both completely different formats than the one being discussed here, and both have no high level tournaments that encourage people to "break" the format
The example of probe swap is simply a suggestion, no way concrete. People like you ripping apart arguments from tiny things like this and ignoring the core are the reason i normally refuse to extend such circumstancial evidence as that. Suggesting infect wouldnt just run the card, whatever they would cut, is just as ridiculous as srguing that the deck has ever cared about card advantage.
In vintage and legacy, the problem was not beatdown decks, the problem was everyone running the card creating 56 card decks. The main flaw of misstep is that the best answer to misstep is, well, misstep.
So once again, i await your testing with the card to show it doesnt just
A) help decks like infect more than fsir decks
And
B) create a 56 card format
Until then, i am done discussing this with you as it leads nowhere productive, i prefer to discuss unbans that are not only feasible that WotC would unban but also arent completely ridiculous cards for the format
Also what makes one card being unbanned more feasible than another? In my opinion i think cards like Splinter Twin and BBE are far less likely to be unbanned given that they had been legal and then deemed it needed for them to be illegal yet I don't see people saying that a unban of those cards wouldn't be feasible. What standards place a card as being more feasible than another in regards to the ban list? other than the few cards banned for time reasons like SDTop they are all banned because wizards found them bad for the format. I would think that a card that has never been legal and has no actual real world evidence for its banning would be more likely than cards that had been legal for long stints of time only to have wizards give us the "so its come to this" speech regarding why it is now banned.
I see people writing that Jund is fine or even too good right now, it`s one of the few interactive decks and so on... and it just doesn`t match up with my experience lately. I`ve been a die-hard Jund player for a few years now, I love the deck, but a few months ago I shelved it and started playing something better against fast, linear, non-interactive decks because I just kept losing, and I feel that the meta is very bad for it right now. I should have changed decks sooner, but I stuck with it because of bias, and I think that a lot of players still do. I think Jund is overrepresented right now compared to its viability.
I did a good/medium/bad matchup breakdown of a huge local tournament not too long ago, and I ended up at something like 20%/25%/55%. My best matchups were Infect, Burn, Merfolk and Affinity, and basically nothing else. Affinity and Burn aren`t even great, they`re just good and fine respectively. I haven`t seen a Merfolk deck in months. My local meta is overrun with Jeskai Nahiri, GR Tron and Eldrazi, all terrible matchups. Then you have the Valakut decks and Dredge, which are both also completely horrible, and Ad Nauseam which is also very bad.
I`m not here to complain. And I don`t expect any sympathy for BG/x or anything, as the archetype has been one of the best ones in the format for a long time. Jund players are not entitled to have the best deck. And I`m not saying that it`s unplayable either, I`m just saying that it is not good. I wanted to share my experience to balance out what I`m reading in this thread, that the format is "all these fast, linear decks + Jund as the only viable non-linear, interactive option". In my experience we barely even have that right now. If I hadn`t found another fair, interactive deck that is actually good against all these solitaire decks, I`d probably be playing some fast combo deck myself, most likely Infect. And keep in mind this is coming from a die hard Jund player, it took a lot of losses to persuade me into playing something else. I just hope I`m ever tempted to switch back at some point.
Jund is certainly not well positioned right now as non fair deck really is. It's good against most combo, aggro and creature based decks as well as midrange decks that don't play Lingering Souls but it struggles against Eldrazi, RG Breach Valakut and Dredge which are all very well represented now (Dredge a bit less due to hate but still).
I don't agree that Jund is terrible against Jeskai Nahiri though but it's probably only slightly unfavoured and Ad Nauseam is a good matchup for it. In any case I would certainly much rather face Jeskai Nahiri than RG Valakut, Dredge and Eldrazi. I understand you though and considering your metagame Jund is not where you want to be.
That said I believe metagame will shift sooner or later (as it always does) and put Jund on the better spot again. Until then I will (mostly) stick to the other decks too.
the last statement i totally agree with. Jund/Junk decks will formulate a list that is better against infect/deaths shadow zoo type decks eventually and the cycle of the modern meta will continue to rotate like it always does. no bans or unbannings needed.
I have an interesting observation
Mtgtop8.com divides decks into aggro, control and combo. 52%, 21% and 27% respectively. But is Jund an aggro deck? No, it's midrange. Often times it plays like control. If we take Jund, Junk and Eldrazi shares and move them into separate midrange category, numbers become very different: 32%, 20%, 21%, 27%. Not to mention there are other decks that need to be moved: hatebears with manadorks and creatures like Ooze is midrange, Soul Sisters is hardly an aggro deck too, the version with 4 wrathes mainboard is control for sure, Knightfall with 7-8 manadorks isnt an aggro also.
From this perspective things look much healthier.
Though I dont support Dredge classification as combo deck. They dredge and if they succeed they hit Narcomoeba and 2 Amalgams. Is that a combo? In Magic 'Combo' usually means a win on the spot or very close to it. Thats just an aggro deck with some synergy (who hasnt?), removal resiliency and unusual playstyle.
Btw while Dredge doesnt want Mental Misstep, MM counters their t1 enablers.
The classifications on mtgtop8 are hella wonky, and always have been.
And regarding my post about Jund, I`m not calling for any bans either. In fact, I`m pretty settled on an "ah I don`t know" stance when it comes to B&R, except that SSG does nothing good ever. Edit: plus I want Dredge out of the format. Really.
If you want your 1-drops to ever resolve, you have to play Mental Misstep to counter theirs. If you choose to not play 1-drops, you are at a great disadvantage because you can't use your first turn and not play Bolts, Paths etc and still have to play Mental Misstep to try and make up for it somehow.
In essence, it really isn't about wanting to play Misstep or not. You just have to. It's that simple. In any case, this card is the definition of format warping. A little deceleration would be great, but not at any cost.
(BTW, imagine the price of Misstep - the Modern Prices thread would explode...)
If you want your 1-drops to ever resolve, you have to play Mental Misstep to counter theirs.
Lie
By this logic Mana Leak prevents from playing ANY 3CC+ and half 2CC cards. Thoughtseize is a busted card because it takes your best card. Half the times even before you have a chance to play magic. What do you do? You scoop! They countered your card omg!
Misstep is a design mistake that would make the format more lottery feeling than it already does. DSZ and Infect don't need more free ways to protect their creatures from the few efficient removal spells we have in the format.
Horrible idea all around.
MM is indefensible from basically every angle and is the opposite of what we want to encourage in this format going forward.
If you want your 1-drops to ever resolve, you have to play Mental Misstep to counter theirs.
Lie
By this logic Mana Leak prevents from playing ANY 3CC+ and half 2CC cards. Thoughtseize is a busted card because it takes your best card. Half the times even before you have a chance to play magic. What do you do? You scoop! They countered your card omg!
The big difference is that Mental Misstep doesn't require you to have mana.
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"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
I have an interesting observation
Mtgtop8.com divides decks into aggro, control and combo. 52%, 21% and 27% respectively. But is Jund an aggro deck? No, it's midrange. Often times it plays like control. If we take Jund, Junk and Eldrazi shares and move them into separate midrange category, numbers become very different: 32%, 20%, 21%, 27%. Not to mention there are other decks that need to be moved: hatebears with manadorks and creatures like Ooze is midrange, Soul Sisters is hardly an aggro deck too, the version with 4 wrathes mainboard is control for sure, Knightfall with 7-8 manadorks isnt an aggro also.
From this perspective things look much healthier.
Though I dont support Dredge classification as combo deck. They dredge and if they succeed they hit Narcomoeba and 2 Amalgams. Is that a combo? In Magic 'Combo' usually means a win on the spot or very close to it. Thats just an aggro deck with some synergy (who hasnt?), removal resiliency and unusual playstyle.
Btw while Dredge doesnt want Mental Misstep, MM counters their t1 enablers.
dredge is just ..drege... notworth trying to classify the most orthogonal deck of magic (be iut inlegacy or in modern). It has its own position of weirdo that sits inthe corner of the room and talks to no one.
Misstep is a design mistake that would make the format more lottery feeling than it already does. DSZ and Infect don't need more free ways to protect their creatures from the few efficient removal spells we have in the format.
Horrible idea all around.
MM is indefensible from basically every angle and is the opposite of what we want to encourage in this format going forward.
MM is a clear design failure because they made it cost the same as it targets. If it targeted 2 cc or it costed 2 phyrexian blue and coutnered 1 cc, then it would not lock the cycle on itself.
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Aggro decks wont run many Missteps because holding a counter for your Bolts is not their gameplan.
On the other hand Mental Misstep will surely help vs them, as speed and absence of effective answers is what control-strategies lack nowadays. And there is a ton of 1cc spells in aggro decks.
This change will shift metagame to control and midrange decks for sure
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
If you think eldrazi modern was in any way more healthy than current modern than i have no more to discuss with you. It was the most undiverse, degenerate period modern has ever seen
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I disagree, I think it would have the opposite affect. It would give mid-range/control decks a turn 0 reply to turn 1 plays from linear aggro decks and if those decks choose to play it as well it would lead to them nerfing the speed and power they have for a potentially dead card. Does Deaths shadow or infect want to see hands with 2-3 of these in them? I don't think so. The biggest complaint against these decks is that they "don't care about what your doing and just gold fish" misstep would one way or the other force them to care and slow down and lower the odds of having the "nuts" in the opening hand. It would push the format to favor decks running 2cc and up spells simply for the "blank your misstep" factor and most linear decks simply cannot afford the loss in speed and to functionally keep hands that might be potentially dead in the face of mana leak, Abrupt Decay, Terminate, pyroclasm etc....
If anything it would for sure make the format much more grindy and mid-rangy not more linear.
Both of those decks have an easy 4 of to drop in Gitaxian Probe. When you can't even safely bolt the t1 glistener elf, the deck gets stronger. Countering their t1 play does so little when these decks are so redundant
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I guess it goes two ways: either it 1) hates aggro out of the meta, perhaps too hard, or 2) everybody plays it, as in +60%. Personally, neither of those scenarios seems better than the current one. Even if you believe it suppresses aggro, wouldn't it be too much? It reminds me of when people ask for Force and Daze and I just shake my head thinking of Infect. The difference is that Misstep doesn't force you into playing a blue. Again, the answers lies on new cards, not the banlist - at least realistic banlist changes.
Edit: like somebody here said: we need a chisel, not a sledgehammer.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
actually deaths shadow loves Gitaxian probe it cycles and hits the yard fueling become immense faster, eats a little life. You will not be able to keep a hand with multiple missteps and "combo" off with TBR, you can do that with Swiftspear 2 lands a TBR and the bunch of probes.
You would use it to counter the Glistener elf not and again if you go bolt and they go misstep if your on mid-range control you should have either your own misstep or another cheap removal spell. Also Infect relies a lot on Gitaxian probe to know if their protection is enough, they will often hold probe on the turn they plan to Become immense to avoid walking into a removal or double removal spell.
I'm not saying that these decks would want to run it but they would slow down if they did and that will favor mid-range/control no matter what. It would lead to Infect and Deaths Shadow and other similar decks keeping garbage hands more often. It simply doesn't do anything proactive; probe actually does proactive things in those decks. Misstep if they choose to run them would force them into having cards that are only reactionary and force them into the position of playing more interactively.
I would think that these types of decks would rather keep more threat/combo enablers than to run a playset of potentially do nothing cards in fear of cards they don't even fear that much now. I've had plenty of bolts nerfed by the spells they already run; and that is the problem that people have playing against them the current answers are ill equipped for dealing with them. The new Vines light is more worrisome in Infect than metal misstep would be. MM does not represent a increase in the clock and would actually work in the control / mid-range decks favor every time since decks like DS and Infect don't have ways of regaining card advantage and both are relying on reaching a critical mass of certain types of spells. MM is not the kind of spell that either deck wants to be casting if it could help it precisely because it slows their plan down and the longer the game goes the less likely it is that they will be able to go under the mid-range/control player with a fast victory.
Alright dude, i can see this discussion is going nowhere, so heres what ibgot for you: you can continue ranting about misstep, have everyone constantly shooting it down, and then we will continue to have WotC never unban it. Alternatively, you can go and test 600-700 matches with it for us, present the evidence, and then have a real serious discussion about how wizards will still never unban it. Souns good? Cool, see you when testing is done
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Um no, that is a fundamental logical fallacy just a application of circular reasoning. Your simply asserting that it would make those decks better than any thing under the sun and I am saying your wrong. Your example of a swap for probe doesn't hold up both decks actually want probe for multiple reasons that misstep doesn't fill. WotC banned the card for exactly the opposite reason your implying; because it actually quashed decks that relied on 1 drops it didn't really help them. This was very bad for Legacy and Vintage but again Modern isn't a format defined by 1 drops like those.
I play with it frequently again in no ban modern and it isn't that good there.
I wasn't ranting I was simply saying that disregarding it outright is illogical. If slowing down the format and hindering decks like burn,infect,Deaths Shadow Zoo is what you want to do then misstep would actually help achieve that goal. Do I think that it will be unbanned no. But people talked about AV in a very similar way while it was banned since the birth of the format, claiming it would warp the format and every deck that didn't run it would just be buried under a flood of card advantage. Wizards own justification for the banning of it at the outset of the format was that it was to tough on beat down deck which infect and DSZoo would fall under.http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/welcome-modern-world-2011-08-12
So actually I think it would be on you to show why this isn't true.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Any unban talk is on the proposer of the unban, as WotC already expressed they feel the card is not fit for the format, just as any ban is on the proposer of the ban as WotC has shown they feel the card is fine in the format.
Your experience with no banlist modern is just as credible as my experiences with birthing pod in EDH, they are both completely different formats than the one being discussed here, and both have no high level tournaments that encourage people to "break" the format
The example of probe swap is simply a suggestion, no way concrete. People like you ripping apart arguments from tiny things like this and ignoring the core are the reason i normally refuse to extend such circumstancial evidence as that. Suggesting infect wouldnt just run the card, whatever they would cut, is just as ridiculous as srguing that the deck has ever cared about card advantage.
In vintage and legacy, the problem was not beatdown decks, the problem was everyone running the card creating 56 card decks. The main flaw of misstep is that the best answer to misstep is, well, misstep.
So once again, i await your testing with the card to show it doesnt just
A) help decks like infect more than fsir decks
And
B) create a 56 card format
Until then, i am done discussing this with you as it leads nowhere productive, i prefer to discuss unbans that are not only feasible that WotC would unban but also arent completely ridiculous cards for the format
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
No reason to think that it would find some supreme shell that it would just break everything with. Modern has always been defined by 2cc cards not 1cc, it isn't legacy. I think it would see lots of play and would probably push jund/junk back to the best deck in the format bar none. I'm just saying that the reasons WotC banned it out right is because it would hinder the very kind of strategies that everyone in this forum is complaining about non-stop. WotC also thought that AV in combination with spell snare would for sure give us a very oppressive U based control deck, still waiting for it to find the perfect shell I guess.
I would like for you to explain how any card that answers the boogie man decks of the format (assuming they are Infect and DSZoo) wouldn't instantly create a 56 card format and place heavy deck construction restraints on players? Seems like any card that helps mid-range/control against those decks will instantly invalidate any mid-range or control deck not in the proper colors to run this hypothetical card.
I did a good/medium/bad matchup breakdown of a huge local tournament not too long ago, and I ended up at something like 20%/25%/55%. My best matchups were Infect, Burn, Merfolk and Affinity, and basically nothing else. Affinity and Burn aren`t even great, they`re just good and fine respectively. I haven`t seen a Merfolk deck in months. My local meta is overrun with Jeskai Nahiri, GR Tron and Eldrazi, all terrible matchups. Then you have the Valakut decks and Dredge, which are both also completely horrible, and Ad Nauseam which is also very bad.
I`m not here to complain. And I don`t expect any sympathy for BG/x or anything, as the archetype has been one of the best ones in the format for a long time. Jund players are not entitled to have the best deck. And I`m not saying that it`s unplayable either, I`m just saying that it is not good. I wanted to share my experience to balance out what I`m reading in this thread, that the format is "all these fast, linear decks + Jund as the only viable non-linear, interactive option". In my experience we barely even have that right now. If I hadn`t found another fair, interactive deck that is actually good against all these solitaire decks, I`d probably be playing some fast combo deck myself, most likely Infect. And keep in mind this is coming from a die hard Jund player, it took a lot of losses to persuade me into playing something else. I just hope I`m ever tempted to switch back at some point.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Also what makes one card being unbanned more feasible than another? In my opinion i think cards like Splinter Twin and BBE are far less likely to be unbanned given that they had been legal and then deemed it needed for them to be illegal yet I don't see people saying that a unban of those cards wouldn't be feasible. What standards place a card as being more feasible than another in regards to the ban list? other than the few cards banned for time reasons like SDTop they are all banned because wizards found them bad for the format. I would think that a card that has never been legal and has no actual real world evidence for its banning would be more likely than cards that had been legal for long stints of time only to have wizards give us the "so its come to this" speech regarding why it is now banned.
the last statement i totally agree with. Jund/Junk decks will formulate a list that is better against infect/deaths shadow zoo type decks eventually and the cycle of the modern meta will continue to rotate like it always does. no bans or unbannings needed.
Mtgtop8.com divides decks into aggro, control and combo. 52%, 21% and 27% respectively. But is Jund an aggro deck? No, it's midrange. Often times it plays like control. If we take Jund, Junk and Eldrazi shares and move them into separate midrange category, numbers become very different: 32%, 20%, 21%, 27%. Not to mention there are other decks that need to be moved: hatebears with manadorks and creatures like Ooze is midrange, Soul Sisters is hardly an aggro deck too, the version with 4 wrathes mainboard is control for sure, Knightfall with 7-8 manadorks isnt an aggro also.
From this perspective things look much healthier.
Though I dont support Dredge classification as combo deck. They dredge and if they succeed they hit Narcomoeba and 2 Amalgams. Is that a combo? In Magic 'Combo' usually means a win on the spot or very close to it. Thats just an aggro deck with some synergy (who hasnt?), removal resiliency and unusual playstyle.
Btw while Dredge doesnt want Mental Misstep, MM counters their t1 enablers.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
And regarding my post about Jund, I`m not calling for any bans either. In fact, I`m pretty settled on an "ah I don`t know" stance when it comes to B&R, except that SSG does nothing good ever. Edit: plus I want Dredge out of the format. Really.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
If you want your 1-drops to ever resolve, you have to play Mental Misstep to counter theirs. If you choose to not play 1-drops, you are at a great disadvantage because you can't use your first turn and not play Bolts, Paths etc and still have to play Mental Misstep to try and make up for it somehow.
In essence, it really isn't about wanting to play Misstep or not. You just have to. It's that simple. In any case, this card is the definition of format warping. A little deceleration would be great, but not at any cost.
(BTW, imagine the price of Misstep - the Modern Prices thread would explode...)
My Modern Decks:
BGWAbzan MidrangeWGB
UWRJeskai NahiriRWU
BRUGrixis ControlURB
By this logic Mana Leak prevents from playing ANY 3CC+ and half 2CC cards. Thoughtseize is a busted card because it takes your best card. Half the times even before you have a chance to play magic. What do you do? You scoop! They countered your card omg!
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Horrible idea all around.
MM is indefensible from basically every angle and is the opposite of what we want to encourage in this format going forward.
The big difference is that Mental Misstep doesn't require you to have mana.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
dredge is just ..drege... notworth trying to classify the most orthogonal deck of magic (be iut inlegacy or in modern). It has its own position of weirdo that sits inthe corner of the room and talks to no one.
MM is a clear design failure because they made it cost the same as it targets. If it targeted 2 cc or it costed 2 phyrexian blue and coutnered 1 cc, then it would not lock the cycle on itself.