I personally think that there are a lot of "over the top" or busted cards in Modern. They fly under the radar because there is a better thing to do. (Now I will lose all credibility.) Cards like Ethereal Armor or Smallpox are above the curve. These cards can be broken in the right deck, even if the deck itself is not too strong in the meta. And these are just 2 examples.
Simian Spirit Guide is one I've seen up for ban discussion before. People have locally seen the Simian Spirit Guide into Chalice of the Void on turn 1 completely locking out an opponent before. It has happened on the large scale now with RW Sun and Moon. A Dredge player at my LGS did turn 1 dump 15 cards in his graveyard with Cathartic Reunion. There's been much more, but overall decks with Simian Spirit Guide haven't done too much, other than Ad Nauseam. That card being banned KILLS Ad Nauseam and Grishoalbrand. Many players say, "good riddance." But I don't think it will happen since it hasn't warped the meta in any way. It is also some of the last fast mana with Rite of Flame and Seething Song banned.
I should say that I can see why some players want a particular card banned. It has plagued them and they literally have no way to beat it unless they buy another $1,000 deck. I have hardly ever beaten 8 Rack or Infect, yet I don't personally think that anything should be banned.
I have played Magic since 1994, off and on, and on ever since Mirrodin/Kamigawa Standard. I have also played a lot of Modern. It is the format that I play 90% of the time and out of choice (other than Legacy, which I also do whenever I can). I do not think that any time has been a problem in Modern, except the Eldrazi time. That really warped the meta and for me to have over a 90% win rate with UR Eldrazi is just ridiculous. Yes, I have done well with other decks, but never over 75%. I do think the Pod/Treasure Cruise era caused a decline in attendance, but I personally didn't mind it (just ran RG Breach with Chalice of the Void). I personally think that slowly opening up the ban list in Modern rather than banning stuff like Become Immense and Prized Amalgam will bode well for Modern. I was afraid to suggest unbannings before because I usually got shot down. But I notice that players are coming around to a similar conclusion. That's where I'm at.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I do agree with FoodChainGoblins--I think the majority of the ban-list is actually fine to have in the format.
If we start with the assumption that the baseline for the turn 4 rule is basically not enforceable, and we allow some of the faster decks (UR storm) back into the format on a more-consistent basis, you then have a strategic archetype that can compete with ALL of the fast linears, forcing everyone to be a little more interactive.
It's kind of like legacy: Goblin charbelcher, Spanish inquisition, TES, and ANT all push the speed rules in Magic, but the most successful of these decks is ANT, because the format is self-policing to the point that it's actually better to slow down and be interactive with some discard spells and cantrips than it is to just glass cannon your way through. I firmly believe modern could have the same balance, with discard spells serving as a weapon for both sides to promote slightly more interactive gameplay, with decks like Storm and affinity serving as the baseline "speed" test of the format.
I think it would be interesting to see what the format shook out to. Obviously, this exercise would be done with a very close look at the ban list at 6 months, and every 3 months after that. It might be that eye of ugin and eldrazi winter happens again, in which case it goes. It might be that elves goes crazy. It could be that treasure cruise is still too good, or that second sunrise still causes tournament time issues. Regardless, I think it's more reasonable to give modern a fresh start; there have been a lot of nuts cards like rest in peace and stony silence printed since the format's inception, and I believe there's a lot it could do to self police now that isn't enabled because of the powerful but balanced-with-each-other cards remaining on the list.
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
IMO, I would rather see either just misstep, skullclamp, and shoal banned, or only the weakest offenders unbanned.
I think lumping top and depths in with misstep, clamp, and shoal isn't great, considering that they're powerful (but not too powerful in legacy, where as the other three legitimately break the game to a certain degree.
I mean, it would pretty much shape up to be similar to Legacy or No Ban List Modern. Either run UB for disruption, race to finish line, or try to go over the top. Seems like it would be fun for a little while. But it wouldnt help with the speed of the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
IMO, I would rather see either just misstep, skullclamp, and shoal banned, or only the weakest offenders unbanned.
I think lumping top and depths in with misstep, clamp, and shoal isn't great, considering that they're powerful (but not too powerful in legacy, where as the other three legitimately break the game to a certain degree.
That was specifically in regards to amalek0's comment.
Yea, plenty of those cards would be re-added to the banned list, but the idea is that ban criteria has changed over time, and starting fresh with asingle set of requirements should be an improvement.
COuntertop is probably too strong for modern, but glimpse of nature, treasure cruise, chrome mox, etc, are a ll being unbanned as well, for the initial go.
I give you that much, my opinion is based on WOTC printing new tools, either deliberately, or accidentally. Seeing as Standard is not doing so well, NWO might have to re-think their strategy. Best thing we can hope for.
In what way is Standard not doing so well? Is attendance down? I'll admit I haven't been paying too much attention to it lately. I do know some people didn't like the faster rotation so they changed it back, was Standard interest down due to the faster rotation?
Blood Moon is another good example, and one I brought up on the Ban Discussion thread right before it was closed (its a conspiracy!). BM in no way is on the chopping block for banning. In fact, banning BM would be a huge mistake on WOTCs part. BM does so much to control the format, even though its not played that heavily. The fact that it exists means certain decks need to revise how they pick their mana, which invariably dictates which spells they will use. Eldrazi winter would have almost certainly been much worse if BM was not in the format. Anyone who has any extensive experience with BM (like me) will know that it really isnt the end-all be-all card. It irks me when salty players call it the insta-win card. If it was the insta-win card, then we would see it in most decks that could play it.
Having lived through the horror that was Khans-Battle for Zendikar Standard, I can attest that the format is better with Blood Moon in it.
A year out, WOTCs ban of Twin, regardless of their reasoning, has worked out quite well. Not only can blue decks use different strategies, now (it didnt make sense to play blue before without Twin, which limited blue ultimately) but we can also have a format that has room for more strategies.
What different strategies are being used that weren't used before? The only one I can think of is Jeskai Nahiri, which is based on a card that wasn't even legal when Splinter Twin was around, so it can't really be considered a triumph of the ban.
One final note: Infect. Yes, it is currently the best deck in Modern. Prior to the printing of Blossoming Defense, the deck was difficult to beat, but not impossible. Kill one or two infect creatures and its usually game over. With the printing of blossoming defense, Infect has been pushed close to the oppressive category. Nonetheless, it is nowhere close to as bad as Eldrazi was during Eldrazi winter, or Twin prior to the banning. It can still be defeated, and it does not warp the format. No one needs to make SB space JUST for infect, whereas Twin definitly had people making special spots in their SB just for Twin.
Who was putting cards in their sideboard just for Twin? What cards were only good against Twin? I can't think of even one. Best I can come up with was Rending Volley, but that was relevant against other decks as well. Heck, the reason I went up to 3 in my sideboard was because I wanted an extra edge against Merfolk. Sure, Rending Volley has fallen away without Splinter Twin in the format, but the card was never used just for Twin, it was used because it was good against Twin and some other decks as well.
Std is down for attendance. WOTC keep their worldwide attendance at event figures close to their chest, but the the rotation has been pinpointed in public as being unpopular, and we have obviously seen the master-thingy/expedition idea come in as an attempt to mitigate costs of Std (I won't link it - I am sure anyone can grab the original explanations for these if they want). Whispers are about that numbers are drastically down, but the evidence for that is in WOTCs hands.
Personally, I think that the perceived fall in Std has less to do with rotation, and more to do with the fact that it has been a money pit regardless of rotation, and, whisper it softly, the fact that Modern has eaten into it by being way faster, and far less about Planeswalkers, which are very oppressive. Personally again, I think the match-up lottery of Modern is more attractive to players than Standard with its solved format and essentially 2 or 3 top decks, and people like formats not all being about mid range combat and grind. Fringe decks in Modern do a lot of things that Standard won't allow.
Locally Modern has actually died in my area, but it has been here since the start, people have moved on to Legacy to an extent. Standard has been dead for a long time here, pre rotation length change. Mtg thrives here in the form of Commander (which sweeps all before it in number terms and of course does nothing for competitive event numbers), Limited, Pauper and Legacy.
I give you that much, my opinion is based on WOTC printing new tools, either deliberately, or accidentally. Seeing as Standard is not doing so well, NWO might have to re-think their strategy. Best thing we can hope for.
In what way is Standard not doing so well? Is attendance down? I'll admit I haven't been paying too much attention to it lately. I do know some people didn't like the faster rotation so they changed it back, was Standard interest down due to the faster rotation?
Well I think if standard were doing well they wouldn't need so much promo junk just to sell product/get people to play it. I don't personally play it but I do know a lot of people at my lgs have gotten out of it because it's 3 decks and that's about it.
I don't think blood moon keeps anything in check. Infect runs 2 basics, Jund runs 3 (out of 24-25, GW Tron has 1, Dredge 2, Naya Burn 1, Affinity 1, Bant Eldrazi 2 (though it gets destroyed by Blood Moon which it's mitigated by mana dorks). Mana bases are as greedy as they can be , and the pnly reason we don't have 4-color goodstuff in Modern is because is so fast that these decks would have to have each land entering untapped, meaning lots of damage from shocklands. In Frontier people can fetch battlelands that enter tapped and not lose the game; they also run more basics so battlelands enter untapped.
The Blood Moon effect is that sometimes just recks the opponent and wins the game by itself, and that in games 2 and 3 opponent will fetch its few basics and then use red mana to pay colorless or red if they run it.
Blood Moon doesn't keep greedy mana bases at check rather than punish them, and people just risk it unless their meta is filled with them.
You think Infect runs two basics for *****s and giggles? Apart from PtE, Blood Moon is the only other reason. If you think decks are greedy now, imagine if there was 0 answers to their manabases. Not to mention it shuts-off inkmoth nexus. Do you think Tron enjoys Blood moon?
BM definitly policies decks, and it doesnt even have to be played. It just has to be legal. And it will stay legal. If WOTC ever bans BM in Modern, it'll mean the end of the format. Not because BM keeps it alive, but because it means WOTC has taken a new and scary stance on what they want Modern to be. One, I feel, would not be for the better. I consider BM a canary. You should, too.
Simian Spirit Guide is one I've seen up for ban discussion before. People have locally seen the Simian Spirit Guide into Chalice of the Void on turn 1 completely locking out an opponent before. It has happened on the large scale now with RW Sun and Moon. A Dredge player at my LGS did turn 1 dump 15 cards in his graveyard with Cathartic Reunion. There's been much more, but overall decks with Simian Spirit Guide haven't done too much, other than Ad Nauseam. That card being banned KILLS Ad Nauseam and Grishoalbrand. Many players say, "good riddance." But I don't think it will happen since it hasn't warped the meta in any way. It is also some of the last fast mana with Rite of Flame and Seething Song banned.
I should say that I can see why some players want a particular card banned. It has plagued them and they literally have no way to beat it unless they buy another $1,000 deck. I have hardly ever beaten 8 Rack or Infect, yet I don't personally think that anything should be banned.
I have played Magic since 1994, off and on, and on ever since Mirrodin/Kamigawa Standard. I have also played a lot of Modern. It is the format that I play 90% of the time and out of choice (other than Legacy, which I also do whenever I can). I do not think that any time has been a problem in Modern, except the Eldrazi time. That really warped the meta and for me to have over a 90% win rate with UR Eldrazi is just ridiculous. Yes, I have done well with other decks, but never over 75%. I do think the Pod/Treasure Cruise era caused a decline in attendance, but I personally didn't mind it (just ran RG Breach with Chalice of the Void). I personally think that slowly opening up the ban list in Modern rather than banning stuff like Become Immense and Prized Amalgam will bode well for Modern. I was afraid to suggest unbannings before because I usually got shot down. But I notice that players are coming around to a similar conclusion. That's where I'm at.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)If we start with the assumption that the baseline for the turn 4 rule is basically not enforceable, and we allow some of the faster decks (UR storm) back into the format on a more-consistent basis, you then have a strategic archetype that can compete with ALL of the fast linears, forcing everyone to be a little more interactive.
It's kind of like legacy: Goblin charbelcher, Spanish inquisition, TES, and ANT all push the speed rules in Magic, but the most successful of these decks is ANT, because the format is self-policing to the point that it's actually better to slow down and be interactive with some discard spells and cantrips than it is to just glass cannon your way through. I firmly believe modern could have the same balance, with discard spells serving as a weapon for both sides to promote slightly more interactive gameplay, with decks like Storm and affinity serving as the baseline "speed" test of the format.
If I were in charge, We'd restart modern with an 18 month "format exploration" phase--a re-done banlist including just mental misstep, skullclamp, blazing shoal, sensei's divining top, dark depths banned, and a public "watch list" of glimpse of nature, treasure cruise, second sunrise, hypergenesis, dread return and eye of ugin.
I think it would be interesting to see what the format shook out to. Obviously, this exercise would be done with a very close look at the ban list at 6 months, and every 3 months after that. It might be that eye of ugin and eldrazi winter happens again, in which case it goes. It might be that elves goes crazy. It could be that treasure cruise is still too good, or that second sunrise still causes tournament time issues. Regardless, I think it's more reasonable to give modern a fresh start; there have been a lot of nuts cards like rest in peace and stony silence printed since the format's inception, and I believe there's a lot it could do to self police now that isn't enabled because of the powerful but balanced-with-each-other cards remaining on the list.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I think lumping top and depths in with misstep, clamp, and shoal isn't great, considering that they're powerful (but not too powerful in legacy, where as the other three legitimately break the game to a certain degree.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Top/counterbalance seems too powerful for modern.
Yea, plenty of those cards would be re-added to the banned list, but the idea is that ban criteria has changed over time, and starting fresh with asingle set of requirements should be an improvement.
COuntertop is probably too strong for modern, but glimpse of nature, treasure cruise, chrome mox, etc, are a ll being unbanned as well, for the initial go.
In what way is Standard not doing so well? Is attendance down? I'll admit I haven't been paying too much attention to it lately. I do know some people didn't like the faster rotation so they changed it back, was Standard interest down due to the faster rotation?
Having lived through the horror that was Khans-Battle for Zendikar Standard, I can attest that the format is better with Blood Moon in it.
What different strategies are being used that weren't used before? The only one I can think of is Jeskai Nahiri, which is based on a card that wasn't even legal when Splinter Twin was around, so it can't really be considered a triumph of the ban.
Who was putting cards in their sideboard just for Twin? What cards were only good against Twin? I can't think of even one. Best I can come up with was Rending Volley, but that was relevant against other decks as well. Heck, the reason I went up to 3 in my sideboard was because I wanted an extra edge against Merfolk. Sure, Rending Volley has fallen away without Splinter Twin in the format, but the card was never used just for Twin, it was used because it was good against Twin and some other decks as well.
Personally, I think that the perceived fall in Std has less to do with rotation, and more to do with the fact that it has been a money pit regardless of rotation, and, whisper it softly, the fact that Modern has eaten into it by being way faster, and far less about Planeswalkers, which are very oppressive. Personally again, I think the match-up lottery of Modern is more attractive to players than Standard with its solved format and essentially 2 or 3 top decks, and people like formats not all being about mid range combat and grind. Fringe decks in Modern do a lot of things that Standard won't allow.
Locally Modern has actually died in my area, but it has been here since the start, people have moved on to Legacy to an extent. Standard has been dead for a long time here, pre rotation length change. Mtg thrives here in the form of Commander (which sweeps all before it in number terms and of course does nothing for competitive event numbers), Limited, Pauper and Legacy.
Well I think if standard were doing well they wouldn't need so much promo junk just to sell product/get people to play it. I don't personally play it but I do know a lot of people at my lgs have gotten out of it because it's 3 decks and that's about it.
It's basically a Rock Paper Scissors format.
The Blood Moon effect is that sometimes just recks the opponent and wins the game by itself, and that in games 2 and 3 opponent will fetch its few basics and then use red mana to pay colorless or red if they run it.
Blood Moon doesn't keep greedy mana bases at check rather than punish them, and people just risk it unless their meta is filled with them.
BM definitly policies decks, and it doesnt even have to be played. It just has to be legal. And it will stay legal. If WOTC ever bans BM in Modern, it'll mean the end of the format. Not because BM keeps it alive, but because it means WOTC has taken a new and scary stance on what they want Modern to be. One, I feel, would not be for the better. I consider BM a canary. You should, too.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/764899-state-of-modern-thread-bans-format-health-reprints
We are excited to roll out this new format for discussing Modern's challenges and successes, and hope you enjoy the new conversation!