The list is the perfect representation of why modern is not healty anymore: instead of turn 4 format we have a "0 & 1 drops matter" format.
The only two drop in the list is mr. tarmo which is pretty obvious.
Remember when people tried to argue that banning Twin allowed more 4 drops to be played in the format? If we look at the top 50 spells in the format, the only ones on that list at 4 or above are cheated into play based on various cost-reduction methods (Leylines, Delve spells/creatures, Tron stuff, Eldrazi stuff). In fact, of the top 50 spells and top 50 creatures, the ONLY cards that regularly makes people tap 4+ lands to play is Obstinate Baloth, Thragtusk, and Primeval Titan. But those only also mostly come in decks that have big mana ramp and Prime Time is often cheated in with Through the Breach and Simian Spirit Guide.
The list is the perfect representation of why modern is not healty anymore: instead of turn 4 format we have a "0 & 1 drops matter" format.
The only two drop in the list is mr. tarmo which is pretty obvious.
Remember when people tried to argue that banning Twin allowed more 4 drops to be played in the format? If we look at the top 50 spells in the format, the only ones on that list at 4 or above are cheated into play based on various cost-reduction methods (Leylines, Delve spells/creatures, Tron stuff, Eldrazi stuff). In fact, of the top 50 spells and top 50 creatures, the ONLY cards that regularly makes people tap 4+ lands to play is Obstinate Baloth, Thragtusk, and Primeval Titan. But those only also mostly come in decks that have big mana ramp and Prime Time is often cheated in with Through the Breach and Simian Spirit Guide.
Dude, I've been away from MTG for half a year, and you're still complaining about Twin? Let it go, man.
Also, Nahiri really didn't last long, eh?
Public Mod Note
(amalek0):
Post infracted for trolling/Flaming. Keep discussion constructive and on the cards, not the players.
Why does Bant Eldrazi take my best card on turn 2? and I can't even cast Bloodbraid Elf Turn 4?
Why does Dredge look at their top 18, 15, or 12 cards of their deck with ETB triggers but I'm not allowed to cast Ponder?
Why does Infect punish you to not tap out on turn 2 but we can't use Splinter Twin to punish people for tapping out on turn 3?
Why does Burn kill me turn 3 but I can't even cast a Stoneforge Mystic?
Why does Dredge die to Leyline of the Void while, say, Skred is unaffected? Why does control get to draw 3 cards for 1 mana but I can't play Treasure Cruise in my Jeskai Ascendancy deck? Why should you be allowed to cast SFM and get a 2-mana discount on Batterskull when I can't even get a 2 mana discount with Seething Song?
You can't have your cake and eat it, that's why. If you want to play a "fair" deck, by definition, you're not going to be able to do all the stuff that unfair decks can do. On the flip side, unfair decks die more easily to hate than fair decks. I don't ***** about losing to grave hate when I play Dredge.
Dont forget that he opened up with the worst possible comparison, "why does bant eldrazi get to take my best card turn 2" followed by a comparison to JUND of all decks
The list is the perfect representation of why modern is not healty anymore: instead of turn 4 format we have a "0 & 1 drops matter" format.
The only two drop in the list is mr. tarmo which is pretty obvious.
Remember when people tried to argue that banning Twin allowed more 4 drops to be played in the format? If we look at the top 50 spells in the format, the only ones on that list at 4 or above are cheated into play based on various cost-reduction methods (Leylines, Delve spells/creatures, Tron stuff, Eldrazi stuff). In fact, of the top 50 spells and top 50 creatures, the ONLY cards that regularly makes people tap 4+ lands to play is Obstinate Baloth, Thragtusk, and Primeval Titan. But those only also mostly come in decks that have big mana ramp and Prime Time is often cheated in with Through the Breach and Simian Spirit Guide.
Dude, I've been away from MTG for half a year, and you're still complaining about Twin? Let it go, man.
Also, Nahiri really didn't last long, eh?
It was a long and heated discussion for months about how 4 drops were supposed to be more viable now that people "are allowed to tap out after turn 3." But that is not the case whatsoever. The format is faster than ever and 4 drops are currently not being played in any top deck unless they are cheated into play. The top 9 cards in Modern cost 0 or 1 mana. Seems relevant to me.
The list is the perfect representation of why modern is not healty anymore: instead of turn 4 format we have a "0 & 1 drops matter" format.
The only two drop in the list is mr. tarmo which is pretty obvious.
Remember when people tried to argue that banning Twin allowed more 4 drops to be played in the format? If we look at the top 50 spells in the format, the only ones on that list at 4 or above are cheated into play based on various cost-reduction methods (Leylines, Delve spells/creatures, Tron stuff, Eldrazi stuff). In fact, of the top 50 spells and top 50 creatures, the ONLY cards that regularly makes people tap 4+ lands to play is Obstinate Baloth, Thragtusk, and Primeval Titan. But those only also mostly come in decks that have big mana ramp and Prime Time is often cheated in with Through the Breach and Simian Spirit Guide.
Dude, I've been away from MTG for half a year, and you're still complaining about Twin? Let it go, man.
Also, Nahiri really didn't last long, eh?
It was a long and heated discussion for months about how 4 drops were supposed to be more viable now that people "are allowed to tap out after turn 3." But that is not the case whatsoever. The format is faster than ever and 4 drops are currently not being played in any top deck unless they are cheated into play. The top 9 cards in Modern cost 0 or 1 mana. Seems relevant to me.
Also, Nahiri is a terrible deck.
Nahiri is a Tier 2 deck and among the 10 most played decks in Modern. This deck is being played a lot atm.
Also, Twin was preventing 4 drops from being played. Now the format is faster and 4 drops are not being played that much for another reason, but this does not mean the Twin reasoning was wrong, just because another similar one is right. You are correlating two irrelevant situations only to make one better and your reasoning is "well, there is another one situation that's doing the same thing. So, unban my biased strategy can do the same redflaggy thing as well." I am behing a Splinter Twin unban atm, but there are other reasons to do so, and yours always seem to be biased and out of logic/out of place.
If the numbers you are pulling are from Modern Nexus, those are over 2 months out of date. "top 10 decks" is a pretty big exaggeration for Jeskai Nahiri, a deck that doesn't show up on Goldfish at all whatsoever and is incorrectly classified on MTG Top 8 as "Nahiri Control" when referring to RW Prison that switch between Koth, Nahiri, and Ajani as win conditions (which makes the specific win con mostly irrelevant). Jeskai Nahiri is deader than dead. We're just waiting for Modern Nexus to confirm it.
I would also argue adamently that Twin helped slow down the format by punishing these all-in aggro decks and making them run more interaction or risk losing to Twin. Without that risk, there's no real reason to scale back your speed. The risk/reward does not favor playing it safe and respecting the opponent.
Brainstorm 1
Force of Will 0
Ponder 1
Deathrite Shaman 1
Daze 0
Umezawa's Jitte 2
Swords to Plowshares 1
Abrupt Decay 2
Jace, the Mind Sculptor 4
Gitaxian Probe 0
Avg 1.2
So the average casting cost of Legacy's top ten used cards is actually a bit higher than Modern's at the moment (according to mtgtop8). What that implies is very debatable, though
Twin's lantern matchup wasn't as awful as you made it out to be, I think.
Unfavorable, sure, but awful? No.
Suicide zoo/bloo also get their stuff tapped by exarchs if they try to all-in you on one creature. While good players are unlikely to thusly blown out, the threat will certainly slow them down.
If twin existed in the current meta, I'd suspect that it would play vapor snags in some number, which would help a bit.
Eldrazi v twin would be quite interesting. Game 1 would be miserable for twin, I'm sure, but being able to play PnK, batterskull, blood moons, vedalken shackles, etc, might make twin's sideboard plan interesting.
I still don't understand how twin forced aggro to run interaction, I haven't seen affinity dropping its g blasts, infect still runs dismember main, and death shadow lists never changed. Seems more like an illusion than a truth to me
I'm not sure here but did Infect only play one copy of Dismember mb when Twin was around?
Also what about Death Shadow Zoo and Suicide Bloo? They weren't around when Twin was legal. Bloo plays Thing in the Ice which wasn't printed before Twin was banned, ok I take that (but still doubt that a strategy like this would be as successful with Twin legal) but Death Shadow Zoo literally had all the tools it uses currently when Twin was legal but wasn't seeing any play.
Not making a point for a against the Twin ban here, just stating observations
Also what about Death Shadow Zoo and Suicide Bloo? They weren't around when Twin was legal. Bloo plays Thing in the Ice which wasn't printed before Twin was banned, ok I take that (but still doubt that a strategy like this would be as successful with Twin legal) but Death Shadow Zoo literally had all the tools it uses currently when Twin was legal but wasn't seeing any play.
People are inefficient when it comes to discovering information. In order for a deck to exist, people have to realize it is worthwhile and prove that it can be successful. DSZ was in its infancy and just gaining popularity when Twin was running rampant, not because it "folded to Twin" or any reason of that nature, and because DSZ and Sui Bloo are consistent T3 decks that are resistant to Remand and, to an extent, bolt, I think they would hold Twin in check, perhaps forcing a black splash for Terminate just to be viable.
Also what about Death Shadow Zoo and Suicide Bloo? They weren't around when Twin was legal. Bloo plays Thing in the Ice which wasn't printed before Twin was banned, ok I take that (but still doubt that a strategy like this would be as successful with Twin legal) but Death Shadow Zoo literally had all the tools it uses currently when Twin was legal but wasn't seeing any play.
People are inefficient when it comes to discovering information. In order for a deck to exist, people have to realize it is worthwhile and prove that it can be successful. DSZ was in its infancy and just gaining popularity when Twin was running rampant, not because it "folded to Twin" or any reason of that nature, and because DSZ and Sui Bloo are consistent T3 decks that are resistant to Remand and, to an extent, bolt, I think they would hold Twin in check, perhaps forcing a black splash for Terminate just to be viable.
Twin was a poor MU for Zooicide because, exactly as was described before, twin could silmultaneous disrupt the deck by tapping down their threat and advance it's gameplan. Bolts only miss the Death's Shadow, they hit the Nacatyl, SS, and Lynx. Bolt-Snap-Bolt is also huge against Zooicide, as is remanding a become immense.
Also what about Death Shadow Zoo and Suicide Bloo? They weren't around when Twin was legal. Bloo plays Thing in the Ice which wasn't printed before Twin was banned, ok I take that (but still doubt that a strategy like this would be as successful with Twin legal) but Death Shadow Zoo literally had all the tools it uses currently when Twin was legal but wasn't seeing any play.
People are inefficient when it comes to discovering information. In order for a deck to exist, people have to realize it is worthwhile and prove that it can be successful. DSZ was in its infancy and just gaining popularity when Twin was running rampant, not because it "folded to Twin" or any reason of that nature, and because DSZ and Sui Bloo are consistent T3 decks that are resistant to Remand and, to an extent, bolt, I think they would hold Twin in check, perhaps forcing a black splash for Terminate just to be viable.
The problem with that logic which carries over when it applies to Infect as well is generally the answers or proactivity are just on a completely different level than Terminate is. More abruptly, Dispel and Spell Pierce along with the newcoming Blossoming Defense go a long way for proactivity. Previously this gap was filled with Apostle's Blessing but that has been outclassed as of the last few set releases.
I'm still personally on the fence about the Splinter Twin ban, I have a love/hate relationship with that deck, during a 4 round FNM I loved playing it when it was one out of my 4 matches, but I definitely didn't enjoy playing that deck for 4 rounds in a row either. I understand I am probably the statistical anomaly, but I felt skill didn't matter for most Twin players, when I played against a Twin player with skill it was enjoyable, but it also gives me the feelings that Glistener Elf now gives me - open your mana or lose.
[quote from="Sei »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/764899-state-of-modern-thread-bans-format-health-reprints?comment=61"] It seems to be a resentment that what has always been good against everything except Tron is now bad against Tron, Dredge, and Bant Eldrazi. This puts it more in line with the majority of other modern decks which tend to have 2-4 bad match ups. I don't hold the opinion that Jund or any other deck is a "pillar" of the health of the format and that any shifts in the format which invalidate its status as tier 1 is automatically a negative reflection of the health of the format.
But I also hold a generally optimistic view of things like this so...
It's the issue in relation to the banned list for most Mid-range players (myself included), we have some basic questions for the community as a whole.
Why does Bant Eldrazi take my best card on turn 2? and I can't even cast Bloodbraid Elf Turn 4?
Why does Dredge look at their top 18, 15, or 12 cards of their deck with ETB triggers but I'm not allowed to cast Ponder?
Why does Infect punish you to not tap out on turn 2 but we can't use Splinter Twin to punish people for tapping out on turn 3?
Why does Burn kill me turn 3 but I can't even cast a Stoneforge Mystic?
MTGGoldfish says in Legacy it's the 25th commonly played spell, with an 11.66% dominance rate, in 12.57% of the decks. Then half this forum is crapping their pants about never unbanning it. We are talking about a format with less board removal pretty much shrugging at a Stoneforge Mystic. Now scroll down even more, then you'll notice Bloodbraid Elf.... isn't even in the top 50.
We have to stop claiming that these cards are gonna steroid decks like Abzan and Jund. Newsflash! they already did steroid Abzan and Jund, it's called Bant Eldrazi, and it's the kind of steroid they use on those freaky Bulls.
This complete joke of a banned list, has seriously gone on long enough. If you think I'm wrong, why are people fleeing and playing Frontier? What's the actual purpose of that entire format? Ask yourselves.
</blockquote>
I find the first point slightly laughable as Jund/Junk has been playing the "take my best card turn 1" play since forever, plus its a far more common draw of only needed 1 card vs. 3 cards in Bant Eldrazi.
Ponder was banned because of its greater consistency for combo decks. I would be open to pulling it off the ban list since most of the modern combo decks are slow and PyroAcen decks have been nerfed in the ramp spells so it might not put it back into broken range.
I've been happy with the twin ban. It did constrict the viability of other RUx non-combo decks and it stifled aggro decks. The meta-game has been friendlier to more decks since its banning and that isn't a bad thing. Infect doesn't have this affect on the meta-game, removal heavy decks are good against it and its existence doesn't invalidate every other aggro deck.
How often does burn kill you on T3? People could just put the counter argument of why is it ok for Jund/Junk to put me in top deck mode by turn 3? How is that any more fair than anything else other decks do?
IMO the cries for SFM and BBE being unbanned does nothing for any of the "problem" match ups in any of the Mid-range decks but does everything to introduce and reintroduce Mid-range vs. Mid-range trump cards. BBE is objectively OP'ed while it was legal it was a 4 of in every Jund build exactly because its oppressive against other "fair" decks; You would see the far more conditionally good 4cc creatures go back to the SB like before. SFM while already having very good interactions in the format also puts the format back into a Pod type issue that now every equipment that WotC prints potentially breaks the card and the format. What if WotC prints a very good equipment card or brings back Living-Weapon in the future? Should be just ban any and all dangerous equipment cards so SFM can be off the list? Its just another highly risky tool box card that works as a trump card to any "fair" deck not running W
SFM would be the 16th most played modern available card in that list and a major reason that BBE isn't in the top 50 is that Legacy isn't Modern. Legacy has a curve that goes 0-3 where modern has a curve of 1-4 comparing the two formats is night and day, the only decks hard casting a 4cc spell are control decks.
I completely disagree with the Idea that Bant Eldrazi is near as oppressive as juiced up Jund/Junk, its a deck that preys on Jund/Junk decks by going over them in regards to the threats but its also a deck that folds much easier to URx decks and aggro decks. This falls right in line with traditional MTG game theory of bigger mid-range trumping smaller mid-range.
I only know 2 types of people who prefer Frontier to Modern. 1-Newer players/ players who live in regions with less access to modern staples who are still buying into modern, at my LGS they have been running small normally 8 man frontier events and with the store credit they only get 1 of 2 things Modern staples or booster packs and nearly everyone who plays in it are newer players with a little more than a year playing at most. If WotC would do a full print run on MMxx instead of a limited run it would deflate the market value of modern staples down to a reasonable level and most would jump into modern. The restriction no access to cards is actually the main reason the Japanese players invented the format the market for Magic cards in Japan was historically much lower for the majority of the games existence so the cards that they have actual access to are newer cards and thus the format is more a out growth of the supply side of Mtg than a comment on the format of Modern.
The other type of frontier players are players who are salty that their deck doesn't crush the way they want it to and are happier playing super standard. This is fine if its what your looking for but to me and most others I know its a very boring format that is ruled by nothing but mid-range decks(p.s. I am a mid-range player Jund, Grixis, UR).
Also what about Death Shadow Zoo and Suicide Bloo? They weren't around when Twin was legal. Bloo plays Thing in the Ice which wasn't printed before Twin was banned, ok I take that (but still doubt that a strategy like this would be as successful with Twin legal) but Death Shadow Zoo literally had all the tools it uses currently when Twin was legal but wasn't seeing any play.
People are inefficient when it comes to discovering information. In order for a deck to exist, people have to realize it is worthwhile and prove that it can be successful. DSZ was in its infancy and just gaining popularity when Twin was running rampant, not because it "folded to Twin" or any reason of that nature, and because DSZ and Sui Bloo are consistent T3 decks that are resistant to Remand and, to an extent, bolt, I think they would hold Twin in check, perhaps forcing a black splash for Terminate just to be viable.
Twin was a poor MU for Zooicide because, exactly as was described before, twin could silmultaneous disrupt the deck by tapping down their threat and advance it's gameplan. Bolts only miss the Death's Shadow, they hit the Nacatyl, SS, and Lynx. Bolt-Snap-Bolt is also huge against Zooicide, as is remanding a become immense.
Totally agree with this assessment. If I'm running a UR snapcaster deck more than happy for my opponent to drop themselves down to 9 or less life.
Also what about Death Shadow Zoo and Suicide Bloo? They weren't around when Twin was legal. Bloo plays Thing in the Ice which wasn't printed before Twin was banned, ok I take that (but still doubt that a strategy like this would be as successful with Twin legal) but Death Shadow Zoo literally had all the tools it uses currently when Twin was legal but wasn't seeing any play.
People are inefficient when it comes to discovering information. In order for a deck to exist, people have to realize it is worthwhile and prove that it can be successful. DSZ was in its infancy and just gaining popularity when Twin was running rampant, not because it "folded to Twin" or any reason of that nature, and because DSZ and Sui Bloo are consistent T3 decks that are resistant to Remand and, to an extent, bolt, I think they would hold Twin in check, perhaps forcing a black splash for Terminate just to be viable.
The problem with that logic which carries over when it applies to Infect as well is generally the answers or proactivity are just on a completely different level than Terminate is. More abruptly, Dispel and Spell Pierce along with the newcoming Blossoming Defense go a long way for proactivity. Previously this gap was filled with Apostle's Blessing but that has been outclassed as of the last few set releases.
I'm still personally on the fence about the Splinter Twin ban, I have a love/hate relationship with that deck, during a 4 round FNM I loved playing it when it was one out of my 4 matches, but I definitely didn't enjoy playing that deck for 4 rounds in a row either. I understand I am probably the statistical anomaly, but I felt skill didn't matter for most Twin players, when I played against a Twin player with skill it was enjoyable, but it also gives me the feelings that Glistener Elf now gives me - open your mana or lose.
Isn't the better method of fighting Infect to cast spells at sorcery speed on your turn forcing them to waste their pump/protection spells? Also if Infect is such a poor match up why haven't BGx decks sideboarded more direct hate for it? Melira, Sylvok Outcast Seems like a strong hate card on the level of Stony silence, doesn't shut the deck off 100% but literally makes its goal twice as hard to achieve.
[quote from="Sei »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/764899-state-of-modern-thread-bans-format-health-reprints?comment=61"] It seems to be a resentment that what has always been good against everything except Tron is now bad against Tron, Dredge, and Bant Eldrazi. This puts it more in line with the majority of other modern decks which tend to have 2-4 bad match ups. I don't hold the opinion that Jund or any other deck is a "pillar" of the health of the format and that any shifts in the format which invalidate its status as tier 1 is automatically a negative reflection of the health of the format.
But I also hold a generally optimistic view of things like this so...
It's the issue in relation to the banned list for most Mid-range players (myself included), we have some basic questions for the community as a whole.
Why does Bant Eldrazi take my best card on turn 2? and I can't even cast Bloodbraid Elf Turn 4?
Why does Dredge look at their top 18, 15, or 12 cards of their deck with ETB triggers but I'm not allowed to cast Ponder?
Why does Infect punish you to not tap out on turn 2 but we can't use Splinter Twin to punish people for tapping out on turn 3?
Why does Burn kill me turn 3 but I can't even cast a Stoneforge Mystic?
MTGGoldfish says in Legacy it's the 25th commonly played spell, with an 11.66% dominance rate, in 12.57% of the decks. Then half this forum is crapping their pants about never unbanning it. We are talking about a format with less board removal pretty much shrugging at a Stoneforge Mystic. Now scroll down even more, then you'll notice Bloodbraid Elf.... isn't even in the top 50.
We have to stop claiming that these cards are gonna steroid decks like Abzan and Jund. Newsflash! they already did steroid Abzan and Jund, it's called Bant Eldrazi, and it's the kind of steroid they use on those freaky Bulls.
This complete joke of a banned list, has seriously gone on long enough. If you think I'm wrong, why are people fleeing and playing Frontier? What's the actual purpose of that entire format? Ask yourselves.
</blockquote>
I find the first point slightly laughable as Jund/Junk has been playing the "take my best card turn 1" play since forever, plus its a far more common draw of only needed 1 card vs. 3 cards in Bant Eldrazi.
Ponder was banned because of its greater consistency for combo decks. I would be open to pulling it off the ban list since most of the modern combo decks are slow and PyroAcen decks have been nerfed in the ramp spells so it might not put it back into broken range.
I've been happy with the twin ban. It did constrict the viability of other RUx non-combo decks and it stifled aggro decks. The meta-game has been friendlier to more decks since its banning and that isn't a bad thing. Infect doesn't have this affect on the meta-game, removal heavy decks are good against it and its existence doesn't invalidate every other aggro deck.
How often does burn kill you on T3? People could just put the counter argument of why is it ok for Jund/Junk to put me in top deck mode by turn 3? How is that any more fair than anything else other decks do?
IMO the cries for SFM and BBE being unbanned does nothing for any of the "problem" match ups in any of the Mid-range decks but does everything to introduce and reintroduce Mid-range vs. Mid-range trump cards. BBE is objectively OP'ed while it was legal it was a 4 of in every Jund build exactly because its oppressive against other "fair" decks; You would see the far more conditionally good 4cc creatures go back to the SB like before. SFM while already having very good interactions in the format also puts the format back into a Pod type issue that now every equipment that WotC prints potentially breaks the card and the format. What if WotC prints a very good equipment card or brings back Living-Weapon in the future? Should be just ban any and all dangerous equipment cards so SFM can be off the list? Its just another highly risky tool box card that works as a trump card to any "fair" deck not running W
SFM would be the 16th most played modern available card in that list and a major reason that BBE isn't in the top 50 is that Legacy isn't Modern. Legacy has a curve that goes 0-3 where modern has a curve of 1-4 comparing the two formats is night and day, the only decks hard casting a 4cc spell are control decks.
I completely disagree with the Idea that Bant Eldrazi is near as oppressive as juiced up Jund/Junk, its a deck that preys on Jund/Junk decks by going over them in regards to the threats but its also a deck that folds much easier to URx decks and aggro decks. This falls right in line with traditional MTG game theory of bigger mid-range trumping smaller mid-range.
I only know 2 types of people who prefer Frontier to Modern. 1-Newer players/ players who live in regions with less access to modern staples who are still buying into modern, at my LGS they have been running small normally 8 man frontier events and with the store credit they only get 1 of 2 things Modern staples or booster packs and nearly everyone who plays in it are newer players with a little more than a year playing at most. If WotC would do a full print run on MMxx instead of a limited run it would deflate the market value of modern staples down to a reasonable level and most would jump into modern. The restriction no access to cards is actually the main reason the Japanese players invented the format the market for Magic cards in Japan was historically much lower for the majority of the games existence so the cards that they have actual access to are newer cards and thus the format is more a out growth of the supply side of Mtg than a comment on the format of Modern.
The other type of frontier players are players who are salty that their deck doesn't crush the way they want it to and are happier playing super standard. This is fine if its what your looking for but to me and most others I know its a very boring format that is ruled by nothing but mid-range decks(p.s. I am a mid-range player Jund, Grixis, UR).
</blockquote>
Your own logic is inconsistent. If bant eldrazi going larger than jund is perfectly in line, then stoneforge mystic is also fine, especially given that its form of mana acceleration (stoneforge) can be profitably interacted with via removal whereas eldrazi temple cannot.
The design space argument on stoneforge mystic is a straw man. Living weapon was extremely more powerful than they anticipated and they have stated that batterskull was a mistake. Every other pushed equipment will fall into one of two buckets: pushed on powerlevel but balanced by equip cost (not abusable with stoneforge) or pushed on powerlevel and initial mana cost but not equip cost (known poor design choice for limited, far more vulnerable to getting stranded by removal, and has multiple points of failure to removal).
In short: equipment is naturally balanced by the equip ability happening at sorcery speed. Living weapon dodges this, which is why they admit batterskull was a mistake. Therefore if stoneforge can do something more busted than batterskull, quest for the holy relic.dec is actually the stronger deck.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
[quote from="Sei »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/764899-state-of-modern-thread-bans-format-health-reprints?comment=61"] It seems to be a resentment that what has always been good against everything except Tron is now bad against Tron, Dredge, and Bant Eldrazi. This puts it more in line with the majority of other modern decks which tend to have 2-4 bad match ups. I don't hold the opinion that Jund or any other deck is a "pillar" of the health of the format and that any shifts in the format which invalidate its status as tier 1 is automatically a negative reflection of the health of the format.
But I also hold a generally optimistic view of things like this so...
It's the issue in relation to the banned list for most Mid-range players (myself included), we have some basic questions for the community as a whole.
Why does Bant Eldrazi take my best card on turn 2? and I can't even cast Bloodbraid Elf Turn 4?
Why does Dredge look at their top 18, 15, or 12 cards of their deck with ETB triggers but I'm not allowed to cast Ponder?
Why does Infect punish you to not tap out on turn 2 but we can't use Splinter Twin to punish people for tapping out on turn 3?
Why does Burn kill me turn 3 but I can't even cast a Stoneforge Mystic?
MTGGoldfish says in Legacy it's the 25th commonly played spell, with an 11.66% dominance rate, in 12.57% of the decks. Then half this forum is crapping their pants about never unbanning it. We are talking about a format with less board removal pretty much shrugging at a Stoneforge Mystic. Now scroll down even more, then you'll notice Bloodbraid Elf.... isn't even in the top 50.
We have to stop claiming that these cards are gonna steroid decks like Abzan and Jund. Newsflash! they already did steroid Abzan and Jund, it's called Bant Eldrazi, and it's the kind of steroid they use on those freaky Bulls.
This complete joke of a banned list, has seriously gone on long enough. If you think I'm wrong, why are people fleeing and playing Frontier? What's the actual purpose of that entire format? Ask yourselves.
</blockquote>
I find the first point slightly laughable as Jund/Junk has been playing the "take my best card turn 1" play since forever, plus its a far more common draw of only needed 1 card vs. 3 cards in Bant Eldrazi.
Ponder was banned because of its greater consistency for combo decks. I would be open to pulling it off the ban list since most of the modern combo decks are slow and PyroAcen decks have been nerfed in the ramp spells so it might not put it back into broken range.
I've been happy with the twin ban. It did constrict the viability of other RUx non-combo decks and it stifled aggro decks. The meta-game has been friendlier to more decks since its banning and that isn't a bad thing. Infect doesn't have this affect on the meta-game, removal heavy decks are good against it and its existence doesn't invalidate every other aggro deck.
How often does burn kill you on T3? People could just put the counter argument of why is it ok for Jund/Junk to put me in top deck mode by turn 3? How is that any more fair than anything else other decks do?
IMO the cries for SFM and BBE being unbanned does nothing for any of the "problem" match ups in any of the Mid-range decks but does everything to introduce and reintroduce Mid-range vs. Mid-range trump cards. BBE is objectively OP'ed while it was legal it was a 4 of in every Jund build exactly because its oppressive against other "fair" decks; You would see the far more conditionally good 4cc creatures go back to the SB like before. SFM while already having very good interactions in the format also puts the format back into a Pod type issue that now every equipment that WotC prints potentially breaks the card and the format. What if WotC prints a very good equipment card or brings back Living-Weapon in the future? Should be just ban any and all dangerous equipment cards so SFM can be off the list? Its just another highly risky tool box card that works as a trump card to any "fair" deck not running W
SFM would be the 16th most played modern available card in that list and a major reason that BBE isn't in the top 50 is that Legacy isn't Modern. Legacy has a curve that goes 0-3 where modern has a curve of 1-4 comparing the two formats is night and day, the only decks hard casting a 4cc spell are control decks.
I completely disagree with the Idea that Bant Eldrazi is near as oppressive as juiced up Jund/Junk, its a deck that preys on Jund/Junk decks by going over them in regards to the threats but its also a deck that folds much easier to URx decks and aggro decks. This falls right in line with traditional MTG game theory of bigger mid-range trumping smaller mid-range.
I only know 2 types of people who prefer Frontier to Modern. 1-Newer players/ players who live in regions with less access to modern staples who are still buying into modern, at my LGS they have been running small normally 8 man frontier events and with the store credit they only get 1 of 2 things Modern staples or booster packs and nearly everyone who plays in it are newer players with a little more than a year playing at most. If WotC would do a full print run on MMxx instead of a limited run it would deflate the market value of modern staples down to a reasonable level and most would jump into modern. The restriction no access to cards is actually the main reason the Japanese players invented the format the market for Magic cards in Japan was historically much lower for the majority of the games existence so the cards that they have actual access to are newer cards and thus the format is more a out growth of the supply side of Mtg than a comment on the format of Modern.
The other type of frontier players are players who are salty that their deck doesn't crush the way they want it to and are happier playing super standard. This is fine if its what your looking for but to me and most others I know its a very boring format that is ruled by nothing but mid-range decks(p.s. I am a mid-range player Jund, Grixis, UR).
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Your own logic is inconsistent. If bant eldrazi going larger than jund is perfectly in line, then stoneforge mystic is also fine, especially given that its form of mana acceleration (stoneforge) can be profitably interacted with via removal whereas eldrazi temple cannot.
The design space argument on stoneforge mystic is a straw man. Living weapon was extremely more powerful than they anticipated and they have stated that batterskull was a mistake. Every other pushed equipment will fall into one of two buckets: pushed on powerlevel but balanced by equip cost (not abusable with stoneforge) or pushed on powerlevel and initial mana cost but not equip cost (known poor design choice for limited, far more vulnerable to getting stranded by removal, and has multiple points of failure to removal).
In short: equipment is naturally balanced by the equip ability happening at sorcery speed. Living weapon dodges this, which is why they admit batterskull was a mistake. Therefore if stoneforge can do something more busted than batterskull, quest for the holy relic.dec is actually the stronger deck.
</blockquote>
where would Elbrus,the Binding Blade fit in your groupings? people talk about Batterskull, and of course it's strong, but honestly imho Elbrus is the card I would be most concerned about, a 13/13 flier potentially on turn 4 is no joke.
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MTGGoldfish says in Legacy it's the 25th commonly played spell, with an 11.66% dominance rate, in 12.57% of the decks. Then half this forum is crapping their pants about never unbanning it. We are talking about a format with less board removal pretty much shrugging at a Stoneforge Mystic. Now scroll down even more, then you'll notice Bloodbraid Elf.... isn't even in the top 50.
We have to stop claiming that these cards are gonna steroid decks like Abzan and Jund. Newsflash! they already did steroid Abzan and Jund, it's called Bant Eldrazi, and it's the kind of steroid they use on those freaky Bulls.
This complete joke of a banned list, has seriously gone on long enough. If you think I'm wrong, why are people fleeing and playing Frontier? What's the actual purpose of that entire format? Ask yourselves.
</blockquote>
I find the first point slightly laughable as Jund/Junk has been playing the "take my best card turn 1" play since forever, plus its a far more common draw of only needed 1 card vs. 3 cards in Bant Eldrazi.
Ponder was banned because of its greater consistency for combo decks. I would be open to pulling it off the ban list since most of the modern combo decks are slow and PyroAcen decks have been nerfed in the ramp spells so it might not put it back into broken range.
I've been happy with the twin ban. It did constrict the viability of other RUx non-combo decks and it stifled aggro decks. The meta-game has been friendlier to more decks since its banning and that isn't a bad thing. Infect doesn't have this affect on the meta-game, removal heavy decks are good against it and its existence doesn't invalidate every other aggro deck.
How often does burn kill you on T3? People could just put the counter argument of why is it ok for Jund/Junk to put me in top deck mode by turn 3? How is that any more fair than anything else other decks do?
IMO the cries for SFM and BBE being unbanned does nothing for any of the "problem" match ups in any of the Mid-range decks but does everything to introduce and reintroduce Mid-range vs. Mid-range trump cards. BBE is objectively OP'ed while it was legal it was a 4 of in every Jund build exactly because its oppressive against other "fair" decks; You would see the far more conditionally good 4cc creatures go back to the SB like before. SFM while already having very good interactions in the format also puts the format back into a Pod type issue that now every equipment that WotC prints potentially breaks the card and the format. What if WotC prints a very good equipment card or brings back Living-Weapon in the future? Should be just ban any and all dangerous equipment cards so SFM can be off the list? Its just another highly risky tool box card that works as a trump card to any "fair" deck not running W
SFM would be the 16th most played modern available card in that list and a major reason that BBE isn't in the top 50 is that Legacy isn't Modern. Legacy has a curve that goes 0-3 where modern has a curve of 1-4 comparing the two formats is night and day, the only decks hard casting a 4cc spell are control decks.
I completely disagree with the Idea that Bant Eldrazi is near as oppressive as juiced up Jund/Junk, its a deck that preys on Jund/Junk decks by going over them in regards to the threats but its also a deck that folds much easier to URx decks and aggro decks. This falls right in line with traditional MTG game theory of bigger mid-range trumping smaller mid-range.
I only know 2 types of people who prefer Frontier to Modern. 1-Newer players/ players who live in regions with less access to modern staples who are still buying into modern, at my LGS they have been running small normally 8 man frontier events and with the store credit they only get 1 of 2 things Modern staples or booster packs and nearly everyone who plays in it are newer players with a little more than a year playing at most. If WotC would do a full print run on MMxx instead of a limited run it would deflate the market value of modern staples down to a reasonable level and most would jump into modern. The restriction no access to cards is actually the main reason the Japanese players invented the format the market for Magic cards in Japan was historically much lower for the majority of the games existence so the cards that they have actual access to are newer cards and thus the format is more a out growth of the supply side of Mtg than a comment on the format of Modern.
The other type of frontier players are players who are salty that their deck doesn't crush the way they want it to and are happier playing super standard. This is fine if its what your looking for but to me and most others I know its a very boring format that is ruled by nothing but mid-range decks(p.s. I am a mid-range player Jund, Grixis, UR).
</blockquote>
Your own logic is inconsistent. If bant eldrazi going larger than jund is perfectly in line, then stoneforge mystic is also fine, especially given that its form of mana acceleration (stoneforge) can be profitably interacted with via removal whereas eldrazi temple cannot.
The design space argument on stoneforge mystic is a straw man. Living weapon was extremely more powerful than they anticipated and they have stated that batterskull was a mistake. Every other pushed equipment will fall into one of two buckets: pushed on powerlevel but balanced by equip cost (not abusable with stoneforge) or pushed on powerlevel and initial mana cost but not equip cost (known poor design choice for limited, far more vulnerable to getting stranded by removal, and has multiple points of failure to removal).
In short: equipment is naturally balanced by the equip ability happening at sorcery speed. Living weapon dodges this, which is why they admit batterskull was a mistake. Therefore if stoneforge can do something more busted than batterskull, quest for the holy relic.dec is actually the stronger deck.
</blockquote>
where would Elbrus,the Binding Blade fit in your groupings? people talk about Batterskull, and of course it's strong, but honestly imho Elbrus is the card I would be most concerned about, a 13/13 flier potentially on turn 4 is no joke.
Would never be a problem. You play SFM on 2, then use 2 mana for the ability turn 3, then you still need to equip it. Are you equiping to SFM? On 3 she's tapped and can't attack. Later, she will be a 2/2 with no evasion. Are you planking on playing a different creature to equip to? Fine, then you have almost no mana to do so. If you try to rush out Elbrus, it will most likely be equipped to a creature that dies to almost every form of removal. You also need stoneforge to survive. With batterskull it sucks if SFM dies, but at least it is plausible to hardcast it later. Not so with Elbrus.
1. you have to cast a stoneforge mystic on turn two. about 45% odds.
2. Your opponent has to NOT react to you finding elbrus by immediately removing stoneforge, or not counter the stoneforge in the first place.
3. They then have to untap, and not have discard for elbrus or a removal spell for stoneforge, stranding you with a cmc 7 permanent in your stoneforge deck.
4. you then get to untap, and hold up two mana, or just mainphase play and equip the elbrus to a turn ONE creature that hasn't been removed yet, and it has to swing and connect through no blockers.
5. Barring you having the turn one creature, they then get another turn to generate removal or blockers for your equipped creature, that can be killed after combat starts to prevent the hit.
If you overcome all of these hurdles, on turn four at the earliest, you get to hit with a 13/13 flyer because your opponent has done zero to interact with you or kill you already in the modern format. Which seems perfectly reasonable, considering that at virtually every stage, a lightning bolt, path to exile, terminate, abrupt decay, electrolyze, pyroclasm, sudden shock, disfigure, doom blade, or go for the throat would have stopped this sequence.
No sequence that involves your opponent having zero interaction with your hand or removal spells by their turn three and results in a "vanilla" creature of virtually any size entering the battlefield is broken.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I would also argue adamently that Twin helped slow down the format by punishing these all-in aggro decks and making them run more interaction or risk losing to Twin. Without that risk, there's no real reason to scale back your speed. The risk/reward does not favor playing it safe and respecting the opponent.
Wait, did you just say that you would argue adamantly that Twin warped the format? Because you just DEFINED warping the format. Yes, Twin slowed down the format. And yes, without Twin the format sped up. BUT it slowed down the format in the worst way possible and we've already seen the format go through a couple cycles since the end of Eldrazi Winter. It's definitionally a much healthier format without Twin in it. It only needs a couple slight nudges to be perfect.
It's definitionally a much healthier format without Twin in it.
Given how awesome 2015 was and how toxic 2016 has been, I cannot agree with this statement whatsoever. You are free to believe that, but it is not a universally held opinion by any means.
It's definitionally a much healthier format without Twin in it.
Given how awesome 2015 was and how toxic 2016 has been, I cannot agree with this statement whatsoever. You are free to believe that, but it is not a universally held opinion by any means.
2015 was not awesome by any means. This is not a universally held opinion by any means. Format had a lot or problems, many aggro decks to a point.
Yes, and all of those problems are worse and more exaggerated this yeat.
And all of the top 8's were give or take like this
1-2 Affinity
2 Twin
1-2 Jund
2-3 Random decks
Another exaggeration. I can compile the data into another graph if you would like. But is that really better than a year full of fast linear aggressive decks and then a bunch of <1% decks dodging all their bad matchups for a lucky weekend?
In 2015, I always heard "Yea, its cool, but Twin....". In 2016 I have heard "Hey why not? Its an open format!".
Stark differences.
Exactly! If you think it's a good thing to be able to do whatever degenerate thing you want without fear of having to respect what your opponent is doing, OR don't care about randomly losing to sloppy players in 80-20 type matchups, than 2016 has been fantastic!
- Pushes all of the control decks to unify into one package. Arguments like "But...but...control will still be played because it has a good twin matchup" suck and are out of reality.
This statement is complete and total trash. Control decks were more played and had more success when Twin was around than they are now, and the Twin matchup was a GREAT draw to play them ("teach those dirty Twin players a lesson with their own blue cards"). Twin gave players the OPTION to have a good finisher if they wanted to trade some of the "control" tools, but as we saw in late summer 2015, Grixis Control (without Twin) was doing a great job beating up on Twin decks and pushed the meta percentage of Twin down considerably. Then at the end of the year, as linear degeneracy crept up (which traditional control has a hard time dealing with), Twin started a small uptick and was actually heralded (alongside BGx midrange) as a massive benefit to the format, to help save us from the kind of garbage we would eventually be overrun with in 2016.
Yes, I agree new cards are needed. No, I do not think good new cards are ANYWHERE on the horizon; at least nothing that would substantially help Modern control decks that are currently circling the drain at the 1% meta region.
But you are exactly right that Twin was NOT format warping. It was also not oppressive and it did not win too much. It was a great deck, but considerably less strong than every other diversity ban Modern has ever had. It was a mistake and much of the groans and complaints of 2016 stem from that mistake (among other things).
Jund continues to be a dominant force, with small variations between lists.
On the same note Midrange continues to dominate with Bant Eldrazi pulling up the second most lists.
To really hammer in the "Anything can do well" KCI Eggs, BW Tokens, GB Infect, and Mono-B control all put up results. A cursory glance over the re****s has Grixis Delver taking the top spot at 2 events.
Remember when people tried to argue that banning Twin allowed more 4 drops to be played in the format? If we look at the top 50 spells in the format, the only ones on that list at 4 or above are cheated into play based on various cost-reduction methods (Leylines, Delve spells/creatures, Tron stuff, Eldrazi stuff). In fact, of the top 50 spells and top 50 creatures, the ONLY cards that regularly makes people tap 4+ lands to play is Obstinate Baloth, Thragtusk, and Primeval Titan. But those only also mostly come in decks that have big mana ramp and Prime Time is often cheated in with Through the Breach and Simian Spirit Guide.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Dude, I've been away from MTG for half a year, and you're still complaining about Twin? Let it go, man.
Also, Nahiri really didn't last long, eh?
Dont forget that he opened up with the worst possible comparison, "why does bant eldrazi get to take my best card turn 2" followed by a comparison to JUND of all decks
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
It was a long and heated discussion for months about how 4 drops were supposed to be more viable now that people "are allowed to tap out after turn 3." But that is not the case whatsoever. The format is faster than ever and 4 drops are currently not being played in any top deck unless they are cheated into play. The top 9 cards in Modern cost 0 or 1 mana. Seems relevant to me.
Also, Nahiri is a terrible deck.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
If the numbers you are pulling are from Modern Nexus, those are over 2 months out of date. "top 10 decks" is a pretty big exaggeration for Jeskai Nahiri, a deck that doesn't show up on Goldfish at all whatsoever and is incorrectly classified on MTG Top 8 as "Nahiri Control" when referring to RW Prison that switch between Koth, Nahiri, and Ajani as win conditions (which makes the specific win con mostly irrelevant). Jeskai Nahiri is deader than dead. We're just waiting for Modern Nexus to confirm it.
I would also argue adamently that Twin helped slow down the format by punishing these all-in aggro decks and making them run more interaction or risk losing to Twin. Without that risk, there's no real reason to scale back your speed. The risk/reward does not favor playing it safe and respecting the opponent.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I was curious about this so I checked it on mtgtop8, the top ten nonland cards used in Modern for the cost they're generally cast for:
Lightning Bolt 1
Path to Exile 1
Thoughtseize 1
Serum Visions 1
Gitaxian Probe 0
Inquisition of Kozilek 1
Noble Hierarch 1
Spellskite 2
Mutagenic Growth 0
Abrupt Decay 2
Avg 1
Versus the same for Legacy
Brainstorm 1
Force of Will 0
Ponder 1
Deathrite Shaman 1
Daze 0
Umezawa's Jitte 2
Swords to Plowshares 1
Abrupt Decay 2
Jace, the Mind Sculptor 4
Gitaxian Probe 0
Avg 1.2
So the average casting cost of Legacy's top ten used cards is actually a bit higher than Modern's at the moment (according to mtgtop8). What that implies is very debatable, though
Unfavorable, sure, but awful? No.
Suicide zoo/bloo also get their stuff tapped by exarchs if they try to all-in you on one creature. While good players are unlikely to thusly blown out, the threat will certainly slow them down.
If twin existed in the current meta, I'd suspect that it would play vapor snags in some number, which would help a bit.
Eldrazi v twin would be quite interesting. Game 1 would be miserable for twin, I'm sure, but being able to play PnK, batterskull, blood moons, vedalken shackles, etc, might make twin's sideboard plan interesting.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Also what about Death Shadow Zoo and Suicide Bloo? They weren't around when Twin was legal. Bloo plays Thing in the Ice which wasn't printed before Twin was banned, ok I take that (but still doubt that a strategy like this would be as successful with Twin legal) but Death Shadow Zoo literally had all the tools it uses currently when Twin was legal but wasn't seeing any play.
Not making a point for a against the Twin ban here, just stating observations
People are inefficient when it comes to discovering information. In order for a deck to exist, people have to realize it is worthwhile and prove that it can be successful. DSZ was in its infancy and just gaining popularity when Twin was running rampant, not because it "folded to Twin" or any reason of that nature, and because DSZ and Sui Bloo are consistent T3 decks that are resistant to Remand and, to an extent, bolt, I think they would hold Twin in check, perhaps forcing a black splash for Terminate just to be viable.
Twin was a poor MU for Zooicide because, exactly as was described before, twin could silmultaneous disrupt the deck by tapping down their threat and advance it's gameplan. Bolts only miss the Death's Shadow, they hit the Nacatyl, SS, and Lynx. Bolt-Snap-Bolt is also huge against Zooicide, as is remanding a become immense.
My H/W list
The problem with that logic which carries over when it applies to Infect as well is generally the answers or proactivity are just on a completely different level than Terminate is. More abruptly, Dispel and Spell Pierce along with the newcoming Blossoming Defense go a long way for proactivity. Previously this gap was filled with Apostle's Blessing but that has been outclassed as of the last few set releases.
I'm still personally on the fence about the Splinter Twin ban, I have a love/hate relationship with that deck, during a 4 round FNM I loved playing it when it was one out of my 4 matches, but I definitely didn't enjoy playing that deck for 4 rounds in a row either. I understand I am probably the statistical anomaly, but I felt skill didn't matter for most Twin players, when I played against a Twin player with skill it was enjoyable, but it also gives me the feelings that Glistener Elf now gives me - open your mana or lose.
I find the first point slightly laughable as Jund/Junk has been playing the "take my best card turn 1" play since forever, plus its a far more common draw of only needed 1 card vs. 3 cards in Bant Eldrazi.
Ponder was banned because of its greater consistency for combo decks. I would be open to pulling it off the ban list since most of the modern combo decks are slow and PyroAcen decks have been nerfed in the ramp spells so it might not put it back into broken range.
I've been happy with the twin ban. It did constrict the viability of other RUx non-combo decks and it stifled aggro decks. The meta-game has been friendlier to more decks since its banning and that isn't a bad thing. Infect doesn't have this affect on the meta-game, removal heavy decks are good against it and its existence doesn't invalidate every other aggro deck.
How often does burn kill you on T3? People could just put the counter argument of why is it ok for Jund/Junk to put me in top deck mode by turn 3? How is that any more fair than anything else other decks do?
IMO the cries for SFM and BBE being unbanned does nothing for any of the "problem" match ups in any of the Mid-range decks but does everything to introduce and reintroduce Mid-range vs. Mid-range trump cards. BBE is objectively OP'ed while it was legal it was a 4 of in every Jund build exactly because its oppressive against other "fair" decks; You would see the far more conditionally good 4cc creatures go back to the SB like before. SFM while already having very good interactions in the format also puts the format back into a Pod type issue that now every equipment that WotC prints potentially breaks the card and the format. What if WotC prints a very good equipment card or brings back Living-Weapon in the future? Should be just ban any and all dangerous equipment cards so SFM can be off the list? Its just another highly risky tool box card that works as a trump card to any "fair" deck not running W
SFM would be the 16th most played modern available card in that list and a major reason that BBE isn't in the top 50 is that Legacy isn't Modern. Legacy has a curve that goes 0-3 where modern has a curve of 1-4 comparing the two formats is night and day, the only decks hard casting a 4cc spell are control decks.
I completely disagree with the Idea that Bant Eldrazi is near as oppressive as juiced up Jund/Junk, its a deck that preys on Jund/Junk decks by going over them in regards to the threats but its also a deck that folds much easier to URx decks and aggro decks. This falls right in line with traditional MTG game theory of bigger mid-range trumping smaller mid-range.
I only know 2 types of people who prefer Frontier to Modern. 1-Newer players/ players who live in regions with less access to modern staples who are still buying into modern, at my LGS they have been running small normally 8 man frontier events and with the store credit they only get 1 of 2 things Modern staples or booster packs and nearly everyone who plays in it are newer players with a little more than a year playing at most. If WotC would do a full print run on MMxx instead of a limited run it would deflate the market value of modern staples down to a reasonable level and most would jump into modern. The restriction no access to cards is actually the main reason the Japanese players invented the format the market for Magic cards in Japan was historically much lower for the majority of the games existence so the cards that they have actual access to are newer cards and thus the format is more a out growth of the supply side of Mtg than a comment on the format of Modern.
The other type of frontier players are players who are salty that their deck doesn't crush the way they want it to and are happier playing super standard. This is fine if its what your looking for but to me and most others I know its a very boring format that is ruled by nothing but mid-range decks(p.s. I am a mid-range player Jund, Grixis, UR).
Totally agree with this assessment. If I'm running a UR snapcaster deck more than happy for my opponent to drop themselves down to 9 or less life.
Isn't the better method of fighting Infect to cast spells at sorcery speed on your turn forcing them to waste their pump/protection spells? Also if Infect is such a poor match up why haven't BGx decks sideboarded more direct hate for it? Melira, Sylvok Outcast Seems like a strong hate card on the level of Stony silence, doesn't shut the deck off 100% but literally makes its goal twice as hard to achieve.
Your own logic is inconsistent. If bant eldrazi going larger than jund is perfectly in line, then stoneforge mystic is also fine, especially given that its form of mana acceleration (stoneforge) can be profitably interacted with via removal whereas eldrazi temple cannot.
The design space argument on stoneforge mystic is a straw man. Living weapon was extremely more powerful than they anticipated and they have stated that batterskull was a mistake. Every other pushed equipment will fall into one of two buckets: pushed on powerlevel but balanced by equip cost (not abusable with stoneforge) or pushed on powerlevel and initial mana cost but not equip cost (known poor design choice for limited, far more vulnerable to getting stranded by removal, and has multiple points of failure to removal).
In short: equipment is naturally balanced by the equip ability happening at sorcery speed. Living weapon dodges this, which is why they admit batterskull was a mistake. Therefore if stoneforge can do something more busted than batterskull, quest for the holy relic.dec is actually the stronger deck.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
where would Elbrus,the Binding Blade fit in your groupings? people talk about Batterskull, and of course it's strong, but honestly imho Elbrus is the card I would be most concerned about, a 13/13 flier potentially on turn 4 is no joke.
Would never be a problem. You play SFM on 2, then use 2 mana for the ability turn 3, then you still need to equip it. Are you equiping to SFM? On 3 she's tapped and can't attack. Later, she will be a 2/2 with no evasion. Are you planking on playing a different creature to equip to? Fine, then you have almost no mana to do so. If you try to rush out Elbrus, it will most likely be equipped to a creature that dies to almost every form of removal. You also need stoneforge to survive. With batterskull it sucks if SFM dies, but at least it is plausible to hardcast it later. Not so with Elbrus.
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Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
What needs to happen?
1. you have to cast a stoneforge mystic on turn two. about 45% odds.
2. Your opponent has to NOT react to you finding elbrus by immediately removing stoneforge, or not counter the stoneforge in the first place.
3. They then have to untap, and not have discard for elbrus or a removal spell for stoneforge, stranding you with a cmc 7 permanent in your stoneforge deck.
4. you then get to untap, and hold up two mana, or just mainphase play and equip the elbrus to a turn ONE creature that hasn't been removed yet, and it has to swing and connect through no blockers.
5. Barring you having the turn one creature, they then get another turn to generate removal or blockers for your equipped creature, that can be killed after combat starts to prevent the hit.
If you overcome all of these hurdles, on turn four at the earliest, you get to hit with a 13/13 flyer because your opponent has done zero to interact with you or kill you already in the modern format. Which seems perfectly reasonable, considering that at virtually every stage, a lightning bolt, path to exile, terminate, abrupt decay, electrolyze, pyroclasm, sudden shock, disfigure, doom blade, or go for the throat would have stopped this sequence.
No sequence that involves your opponent having zero interaction with your hand or removal spells by their turn three and results in a "vanilla" creature of virtually any size entering the battlefield is broken.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Given how awesome 2015 was and how toxic 2016 has been, I cannot agree with this statement whatsoever. You are free to believe that, but it is not a universally held opinion by any means.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Stark differences.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Yes, and all of those problems are worse and more exaggerated this yeat.
Another exaggeration. I can compile the data into another graph if you would like. But is that really better than a year full of fast linear aggressive decks and then a bunch of <1% decks dodging all their bad matchups for a lucky weekend?
Exactly! If you think it's a good thing to be able to do whatever degenerate thing you want without fear of having to respect what your opponent is doing, OR don't care about randomly losing to sloppy players in 80-20 type matchups, than 2016 has been fantastic!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This statement is complete and total trash. Control decks were more played and had more success when Twin was around than they are now, and the Twin matchup was a GREAT draw to play them ("teach those dirty Twin players a lesson with their own blue cards"). Twin gave players the OPTION to have a good finisher if they wanted to trade some of the "control" tools, but as we saw in late summer 2015, Grixis Control (without Twin) was doing a great job beating up on Twin decks and pushed the meta percentage of Twin down considerably. Then at the end of the year, as linear degeneracy crept up (which traditional control has a hard time dealing with), Twin started a small uptick and was actually heralded (alongside BGx midrange) as a massive benefit to the format, to help save us from the kind of garbage we would eventually be overrun with in 2016.
Yes, I agree new cards are needed. No, I do not think good new cards are ANYWHERE on the horizon; at least nothing that would substantially help Modern control decks that are currently circling the drain at the 1% meta region.
But you are exactly right that Twin was NOT format warping. It was also not oppressive and it did not win too much. It was a great deck, but considerably less strong than every other diversity ban Modern has ever had. It was a mistake and much of the groans and complaints of 2016 stem from that mistake (among other things).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Jund continues to be a dominant force, with small variations between lists.
On the same note Midrange continues to dominate with Bant Eldrazi pulling up the second most lists.
To really hammer in the "Anything can do well" KCI Eggs, BW Tokens, GB Infect, and Mono-B control all put up results. A cursory glance over the re****s has Grixis Delver taking the top spot at 2 events.
Looks like a super healthy format to me.
My H/W list