I think they should only ban things that don't interact, the poor interaction is what makes the format boring.
Many people disagree with me but i think that Blighted agent is what makes Infect stupid. You can interact in a more traditional way with the other infect threats but this one only interacts with removal, wich makes the game less strategic and more one-dimentional.
The same goes for Dredge, you can't interact in any way that you do against other decks, you can't discard key cards or counter the dredge mechanic, and its so useless to kill their creatures, its just sad.
The luck factor will always be there but if you allow uninteractive cards and uninteractive strategies the game will be pretty much 100% defined by luck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The sparkmage shrieked, calling on the rage of the storms of his youth. To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again."
It would be absolutely absurd to change sideboard slots. You might as well allow people to change decks between games at that point. 15 is already plenty, and if that's not enough, then its a testament to the lack of good, generalized, maindeck answers.
This post is on point, although I may not agree with the poster on every issue, this is exactly correct. Transformational sideboards would clutter the gameplay we currently experience.
in addition to that, why does everyone assume fair decks get the bonus from increased sideboard? suddenly theres no opportunity cost for valakut to run 4x choke, no opportunity cost for burn to run 4x boil, and ad nauseam could literally become esper control postboard. infect could turn into freakin bogles, and affinity could run 4x blood moon at no cost. the point is that larger sideboards encourages decks to run haymakers, INCREASING sideboard lottery instead of the current size, which encourages cards that are generally good in several matchups.
I think they should only ban things that don't interact, the poor interaction is what makes the format boring.
Many people disagree with me but i think that Blighted agent is what makes Infect stupid. You can interact in a more traditional way with the other infect threats but this one only interacts with removal, wich makes the game less strategic and more one-dimentional.
The same goes for Dredge, you can't interact in any way that you do against other decks, you can't discard key cards or counter the dredge mechanic, and its so useless to kill their creatures, its just sad.
The luck factor will always be there but if you allow uninteractive cards and uninteractive strategies the game will be pretty much 100% defined by luck.
"Uninteractive" strategies are a natural counter weight to the reality that Jund is the most popular deck in the format. If your opponents goal is to shred your hand and remove any relative cards then running essentially equivalent cards is a smart strategy. You cast a 1c.c. discard spell and get to choose 1 of my functionally identical cards has less of a impact if say 5-6 of the cards in my hand are functionally 2 different spells(small creature or pump spell for example). Jund preys on the ability to invalidate the opponents hand, remove what you cannot contain with removal and leave the opponent in a poor position to mount a offense against you until they draw out of it. Decks like DSZoo, URprowess, Infect, Burn etc.... all share the quality that they generally disregard what their opponent is attempting to do and focus on simply pressuring their life total. While this doesn't make for the most fulfilling game for the jund player(mid-range/control) it is a very rational strategy to attack your opponent in a way that invalidates their superior armaments.
It is very much like the "Art of War" Sun Wu leads the Wu against the Chu; the Chu have a larger and more superior military in all regards. Sun Wu beats them not by confronting them directly but by leading small raiding parties who rush into enemy cities and inflict as much damage as possible before quickly fleeing. The superior forces of the Chu while better equipped in terms of the quality of armaments is not structurally capable of deploying its assets against what at the time was "unconventional" battle tactics.
The current problem for the Chu.....I mean the Jund player isn't that they cannot deal with these types of strategies it is that while these types of strategies are pressuring on one front; Modern has gained new forces it must deal with in Bant Eldrazi and Dredge. This puts the Jund player in the position of needing defend two fronts against forces presenting radically different strategies.
There is a lot on that banlist I could see coming off, and there is a card or two I could see being added. I just want something to happen. I remember a while ago, I thought no news was good news. At this point, I'm feeling very much the opposite. Just do something WotC.
Hello, thanks for the graphic response, I enjoyed it, however i'm not sure if I explained my point correctly.
Let's take Tron vs Jund match up for example. There isn't much that Jund can do to interact with it, however, Tron isn't making something complete uninteractive, its just casting big creatures and planeswalkers. I agree that it has to exist very different strategies, but ones that absolutely have no interaction like dredge just makes the game luck oriented. you can play combo or Tron if the meta is heavy on Jund, but then you'll have to watch out for Infect, Burn and very fast aggro strategies. Dredge just don't have to concern about the matchup most of times.
"The sparkmage shrieked, calling on the rage of the storms of his youth. To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again."
Personally, I love the spot where modern is right now. The variability of viable winning decks, both at an FNM level and at an Open level, is so high you have a reasonable chance to win with any kind of strategy. I almost feel like a broken record here, but the issues that I keep seeing being brought up feel ridiculous and almost greedy. People complaining about how hard it is to play as Jund/Junk, decks which are solidly tier 1 (often occupying the "best deck" spot), and suggesting bans against some of its worse MU's.
I suggest no changes.
You want to play your more traditional control, we got some flavors, you want to play your prison control, we got more flavots, aggro, combo, midrange, combinations of these we got all the flavors. Cheep decks, decks that cost an arm and a leg, we got winning decks for both.
Personally, I love the spot where modern is right now. The variability of viable winning decks, both at an FNM level and at an Open level, is so high you have a reasonable chance to win with any kind of strategy. I almost feel like a broken record here, but the issues that I keep seeing being brought up feel ridiculous and almost greedy. People complaining about how hard it is to play as Jund/Junk, decks which are solidly tier 1 (often occupying the "best deck" spot), and suggesting bans against some of its worse MU's.
I suggest no changes.
You want to play your more traditional control, we got some flavors, you want to play your prison control, we got more flavots, aggro, combo, midrange, combinations of these we got all the flavors. Cheep decks, decks that cost an arm and a leg, we got winning decks for both.
So true. There is absolutely nothing to complain about.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
It's been a very long time since I logged into this forum, but I'm logging in to state this specifically.
Instead of printing more hate cards, or growing the sideboard slots to 20 in Modern, Wizards needs to take a different approach with their "hate".
They need to power it down. Basically, they need to print hate cards that are strong, but not devastating against certain strategies. But, this is not something they should do in isolation, which brings me to my second and most important point.
If they want to control a strategy or keep something in check, they need to make MAINDECK WORTHY ANSWERS to very powerful linear strategies. The last two cards we got in this realm were Abrupt Decay and Kolaghan's command. Both are powerful cards, but far from over-powered. They also both are important pieces of keeping certain decks in check or at bay.
Unfortunately, we need more versatile answer cards that don't completely suck if you stick them in your maindeck, but also won't 100% blow out your opponent if they land. Right now, given the state of the meta, there needs to be more answers to aggro decks (or aggro-combo) and decks that can just burn you out.
It's been a very long time since I logged into this forum, but I'm logging in to state this specifically.
Instead of printing more hate cards, or growing the sideboard slots to 20 in Modern, Wizards needs to take a different approach with their "hate".
They need to power it down. Basically, they need to print hate cards that are strong, but not devastating against certain strategies. But, this is not something they should do in isolation, which brings me to my second and most important point.
If they want to control a strategy or keep something in check, they need to make MAINDECK WORTHY ANSWERS to very powerful linear strategies. The last two cards we got in this realm were Abrupt Decay and Kolaghan's command. Both are powerful cards, but far from over-powered. They also both are important pieces of keeping certain decks in check or at bay.
Unfortunately, we need more versatile answer cards that don't completely suck if you stick them in your maindeck, but also won't 100% blow out your opponent if they land. Right now, given the state of the meta, there needs to be more answers to aggro decks (or aggro-combo) and decks that can just burn you out.
It's funny you say this because abrupt decay isn't really that good IMO. The fact it can't hit lands hurts a lot (inkmoth/ravine/valakut/tron), then you have eldrazi/delve/infect creatures where the creatures come down fast but cmc is over 3 or are still protected from it, and lastly where it is good is basically just againt lili and maybe BM when you aren't using it as a creature removal spell (where normally terminate and such are just better). K command is a great card and is a much better example IMO but it's almost too slow right now too. I think a better example of what your saying for a utility hate card is like scavenging ooze where it's never really bad or useless because it's a 2/2 for 2 and has gy hate but if not needed its ability isn't useless because it can just be a bigger threat.
Hello, thanks for the graphic response, I enjoyed it, however i'm not sure if I explained my point correctly.
Let's take Tron vs Jund match up for example. There isn't much that Jund can do to interact with it, however, Tron isn't making something complete uninteractive, its just casting big creatures and planeswalkers. I agree that it has to exist very different strategies, but ones that absolutely have no interaction like dredge just makes the game luck oriented. you can play combo or Tron if the meta is heavy on Jund, but then you'll have to watch out for Infect, Burn and very fast aggro strategies. Dredge just don't have to concern about the matchup most of times.
I feel like your criticism of dredge can be applied to wide variety of decks depending no the match up. To be honest I haven't played my Jund deck since Twin was banned so I don't have experience with how poor the match up is. I do know from playing Grixis builds(competitive) and RU(janky fun) that dredge cares a good deal about resolved Young Pyromancers as they only tend to be able to win game one if I resolve one with a conflagrate.
Its my opinion that Jund currently in a situation where it needs to look at structural issues with its build. Jund has essentially been the same build for the last few years, and it seems like the outrage of Jund players is focused on two new competitive decks Dredge and Bant Eldrazi. It seems to be a resentment that what has always been good against everything except Tron is now bad against Tron, Dredge, and Bant Eldrazi. This puts it more in line with the majority of other modern decks which tend to have 2-4 bad match ups. I don't hold the opinion that Jund or any other deck is a "pillar" of the health of the format and that any shifts in the format which invalidate its status as tier 1 is automatically a negative reflection of the health of the format.
But I also hold a generally optimistic view of things like this so...
It's been a very long time since I logged into this forum, but I'm logging in to state this specifically.
Instead of printing more hate cards, or growing the sideboard slots to 20 in Modern, Wizards needs to take a different approach with their "hate".
They need to power it down. Basically, they need to print hate cards that are strong, but not devastating against certain strategies. But, this is not something they should do in isolation, which brings me to my second and most important point.
If they want to control a strategy or keep something in check, they need to make MAINDECK WORTHY ANSWERS to very powerful linear strategies. The last two cards we got in this realm were Abrupt Decay and Kolaghan's command. Both are powerful cards, but far from over-powered. They also both are important pieces of keeping certain decks in check or at bay.
Unfortunately, we need more versatile answer cards that don't completely suck if you stick them in your maindeck, but also won't 100% blow out your opponent if they land. Right now, given the state of the meta, there needs to be more answers to aggro decks (or aggro-combo) and decks that can just burn you out.
Oh man, it has been a while. If any of you guys are newer, I just wanna point out Badd I've always looked up to. He's a smart cookie.
And to add my two cents. Ive found this to be the overwhelming case. The reason why aggro is so powerful and control is because the aggro cards are plentiful to find, and all do powerful things, where the flexable control cards are few and far inbetween, and even then, most of them arent the same kind of powerlevel. Decay and K command are really the only ones I can think of that are on the same scale. Compare serium visions to blossoming defence. one reads "I can try and find something on my top two to help at the cost of 1 mana and 0 cards." The other, more often than not, says "counter spell at 1 mana, I get a buff, and we both discard a card."
the first card gives a little card selection at 0 card advantage, neither good nor bad there, while the other one gives creature protection, and a buff, at 0 card advantage, neither good nor bad.
Broken down into its raw source managements, one card does more than the other.
[quote from="Sei »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/764899-state-of-modern-thread-bans-format-health-reprints?comment=61"] It seems to be a resentment that what has always been good against everything except Tron is now bad against Tron, Dredge, and Bant Eldrazi. This puts it more in line with the majority of other modern decks which tend to have 2-4 bad match ups. I don't hold the opinion that Jund or any other deck is a "pillar" of the health of the format and that any shifts in the format which invalidate its status as tier 1 is automatically a negative reflection of the health of the format.
But I also hold a generally optimistic view of things like this so...
It's the issue in relation to the banned list for most Mid-range players (myself included), we have some basic questions for the community as a whole.
Why does Bant Eldrazi take my best card on turn 2? and I can't even cast Bloodbraid Elf Turn 4?
Why does Dredge look at their top 18, 15, or 12 cards of their deck with ETB triggers but I'm not allowed to cast Ponder?
Why does Infect punish you to not tap out on turn 2 but we can't use Splinter Twin to punish people for tapping out on turn 3?
Why does Burn kill me turn 3 but I can't even cast a Stoneforge Mystic?
MTGGoldfish says in Legacy it's the 25th commonly played spell, with an 11.66% dominance rate, in 12.57% of the decks. Then half this forum is crapping their pants about never unbanning it. We are talking about a format with less board removal pretty much shrugging at a Stoneforge Mystic. Now scroll down even more, then you'll notice Bloodbraid Elf.... isn't even in the top 50.
We have to stop claiming that these cards are gonna steroid decks like Abzan and Jund. Newsflash! they already did steroid Abzan and Jund, it's called Bant Eldrazi, and it's the kind of steroid they use on those freaky Bulls.
This complete joke of a banned list, has seriously gone on long enough. If you think I'm wrong, why are people fleeing and playing Frontier? What's the actual purpose of that entire format? Ask yourselves.
It's been a very long time since I logged into this forum, but I'm logging in to state this specifically.
Instead of printing more hate cards, or growing the sideboard slots to 20 in Modern, Wizards needs to take a different approach with their "hate".
They need to power it down. Basically, they need to print hate cards that are strong, but not devastating against certain strategies. But, this is not something they should do in isolation, which brings me to my second and most important point.
If they want to control a strategy or keep something in check, they need to make MAINDECK WORTHY ANSWERS to very powerful linear strategies. The last two cards we got in this realm were Abrupt Decay and Kolaghan's command. Both are powerful cards, but far from over-powered. They also both are important pieces of keeping certain decks in check or at bay.
Unfortunately, we need more versatile answer cards that don't completely suck if you stick them in your maindeck, but also won't 100% blow out your opponent if they land. Right now, given the state of the meta, there needs to be more answers to aggro decks (or aggro-combo) and decks that can just burn you out.
I believe both Blessed Alliance and Collective Brutality fit right into that criterion (especially Collective Brutality), they are versatile maindeckable answers mostly hosing aggro.
The issue is that the metagame is too broad at the moment which means that, like Decay, there are some MU's where these cards will still completely suck (against Dredge, G/R Valakut or Tron for example).
I mean, Collective Brutality is good against combo discarding a relevant combo piece, all modes can be solid against fast aggro while making up tempo with its escalate ability if needed, and solid against control/midrange by luring out a counter or discarding a removal/other.
Another possible maindeckable card coming out of Aether Revolt is Disallow. Albeit only playable as a 1-2 of, it still looks incredibly versatile, being able to stop a Planeswalker ult, functioning as a Stone Rain if wanted, hard countering something etc., meaning WoTC may be following those criteria more than we think. Now as you correctly pointed out, these new cards cannot completely blow out your opponent, making it hard to print such cards by finding that perfect balance.
What I would like to see from Aether Revolt is a versatile card similar to Collective Brutality's power level with a variety of applications, including interacting with the graveyard. This would also help the current lack of graveyard hate in standard which is letting Emrakul run rampant.
If you think I'm wrong, why are people fleeing and playing Frontier? What's the actual purpose of that entire format? Ask yourselves.
Nobody is fleeing Modern. Frontier is a lousy format, with potentially busted cards in it and then low power level cards with no good removals and no good control decks. Modern's SCG portion had twice the numbers the latest Standard GP had. Modern is popular as hell and it will continue to be so.
People are indeed fleeing Standard and entering Modern.
No you don't get it, Modern is dead. It doesn't matter that it sees ever increasing attendance numbers, or Modern Masters product flies off shelves. Its got to be true, Shmanka said so.
Public Mod Note
(amalek0):
User infracted for trolling/spamming.
Shmanka, I think you're blowing it a bit out of proportion with your examples, although I do generally agree that some unbans would be viable.
Bant Eldrazi casts turn 2 Thought-Knot a small percentage of the time. Another small percentage of the time it mulls, finds no mana accelerants, and casts an Eldrazi Displacer/Skyspawner on turn 3. I actually find the deck pretty overrated. Jund on the other hand does not rely on synergy but on sheer card power, and Bloodbraid is just an insane top end for such a deck. Not to say I wouldn't like to see BBE unbanned, but I understand the skepticism.
Infect and Splinter Twin are not really comparable in that way. You see Infects threat and can interact with it accordingly, if there is no threat then you can do whatever you want. Twin on the other hand does not let you tap specific amounts of mana after turn 3 (turn 2 if on the draw), threatening to deploy a bolt-proof creature EOT and winning on the spot. Even if the Splinter Twin players hand has 0 combo pieces, you have to respect the possibillity of just dying out of nowhere meaning that you stop playing a regular game of magic and have to wait for your opponent to make a move (which can be next turn with Dispel back up while you didn't to anything to further your gameplan). This is especially troublesome due to the decks ease in changing roles between aggro/combo and control. In all honesty, I personally wouldn't want to see Splinter Twin back in modern.
I can't defend Dredge since I find the mechanic pretty disgustingly broken, and I do agree that Ponder/Stoneforge can be given a shot if tested properly beforehand. But in all seriousness though, in which way would Stoneforge Msytic help the current metagame? Unbanning it would mostly just push midrange decks not running Kolaghan's even more out of the format, or make them run Stoneforge themselves, while not tackling the metagames current "issues" since it's too slow/irrelevant against most of the aggro decks.
Last but not least, If I had to classify something as a "complete joke", it would be Frontier.
No you don't get it, Modern is dead. It doesn't matter that it sees ever increasing attendance numbers, or Modern Masters product flies off shelves. Its got to be true, Shmanka said so.
All sarcasm aside, I'd love to see your stats on the recent 6 months for increasing attendance numbers. Because I know online isn't doing well. That's usually an indicator of a greater issue if we have learnt from the past.
Look at why Frontier has been created, it has a way easier barrier of entry post leaving a Standard format, multiple tournaments have shown that the "busted" cards everyone claims haven't been busted whatsoever, and the level of interaction is quite high. Yes it will have degenerate things happen to it over time, but that time isn't now. So obviously there is some awkward feeling to this entire situation, because we know Extended failed miserably in the past, so why in essence re-create it?
When you lose confidence in Magic, it definitely sinks in and shows up in suttle ways. Maybe less people show up at your store, that's obvious. Maybe though it's how much card prices have tanked, maybe its SCG claiming they can barely hold onto their tour, maybe it's the fact that I can buy 120 Hearthstone packs for the price of 4 Force of Will online.
What really matters is that there are people here who think having 30%+ of the metagame being super proactive yet uninteractive decks in the metagame is a sign of health. We set the bar so high on some aspects of this format, that the banned list can't even measure up in too many cases. Having no said announcements to help relieve the stress of just being Become Immense'd or smashed with Eldrazi for over 9 months with no sign of change doesn't bode well at all.
As of today this is the top 10 cards played in Modern;
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
5 Mutagenic Growth
6 Serum Visions
7 Noble Hierarch
8 Nature's Claim
9 Thoughtseize
10 Tarmogoyf
I'm not sure this is exactly what people call healthy, and if you believe it is, I would love your explanation.
Frontier is useless to discuss so much in depth. It cannot survive. First off, it competes with Standard. Secondly, it will cause sky-rocketing prices for cards considered Frontier Staples, which will affect every other format as well (including Standard, which will be a no-no for WOTC). Third, its a temporary reaction to the current state of Modern. Literally any positive move by WOTC for Modern would derail Frontier support.
So lets not dwell on Frontier for too long. Gives it way more attention than it deserves. Its Modern-light, and it serves no purpose other than to further fragment the player-base.
Oh, also, Im pretty sure Frontier is just another way for stores to sell their *****ty bulk rares. If you think Frontier will be more diverse and harder to solve with its NWO cards, and much, much smaller card pool; I have a bridge in Kansas I want to sell you.
Heres my take away, which is probably more or less what he was going for:
1: Lightning bolt
Well, its the modern card, any nearly anyone playing red will play the set. Nothing surprising.
2: Path to Exile
See above. Usually decks playing this are ones interested in being interactive.
3: Gitaxian Probe
This is a huge red flag. Almost no one who aims to play a fair game of magic is playing probe in modern. Young pyromancer is really the only exception, and percentage wise, its tiny compared to all of the pump-spell aggro decks. The fact that this is the third most played card is indicative of what we already know, that modern favors linear, unfair decks.
4: Inqusition of Kozilek
Similar to path, indicitive of popular interactive decks. The fact that this sees more play over thoughtseize is also an arrow to what we know, that this meta is very aggressive.
5: Mutagenic growth
This is also fairly bad. This card is relatively narrow, only very fast, non interactive decks want this, decks that can afford to play a card with such a steep drop-off in power. The fact that this beats out other common format staples is worrying.
6: Serum visions
Blue's equivilant to bolt/path/inqusition/goyf. Despite is being the quintessential blue card in the format (with the possible exception of snapcaster mage) the fact that it only ranks 6 is significant. Gitaxian probe ranks higher than this.
7: Noble hierarch
By itself, this card is fine. Nothing it does is particularly unfair or troublesome. The issue is that the two decks commonly using it, bant eldrazi and infect, are not particularly interactive.
8: Nature's claim
This is also fairly significant, I feel. Nothing wrong with the card, but a sideboard card at best sees more play than tarmogoyf right now. Its here mostly because of infect and dredge's popularity, though decks like bant eldrazi, tron, and r/g valakut also play it. You may notice that none of those decks are particularly interactive.
9: Thoughtseize
Nothing particular to add here.
10: Tarmogoyf
The fact that goyf makes the top 10 is not surprising, as like bolt, hes one of the ubiquitous modern cards. The cards that beat him out, I feel, are fairly surprising.
I don't think that data shows me anything I didn't already know/suspect, but I think looking at that and claiming everything is fine (or atleast, balanced/evenly represented) is ignorant of the reasons those cards make the list.
Sure, nature's claim interacts, but everyone playing it is only doing so to remove the hate pieces stopping them from killing as fast as they can.
We've had to issue several infractions in this thread already.
The purpose of this new thread is not to re-create all of the problems of the previous Banned and Restricted list discussion thread.
Keep your posts constructive and focused on productive, meaningful discussion.
Posts that are borderline trolling or flaming will be infracted.
Posts that are not constructive will be infracted.
Posts that violate the rules of this thread will be infracted.
Personal note: Blatant Hyperbole is not conducive to reasoned, productive discussion. I would personally recommend you refrain from its use--it is not an effective tool for debate, only for rhetoric and oratory, and leads rapidly to ad-hominem attacks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Heres my take away, which is probably more or less what he was going for:
6: Serum visions Blue's equivilant to bolt/path/inqusition/goyf. Despite is being the quintessential blue card in the format (with the possible exception of snapcaster mage) the fact that it only ranks 6 is significant. Gitaxian probe ranks higher than this.
Gitaxian Probe is about as blue as mutagenic growth is green. The top 5 modern cards are in the 5 different colors, so why is serum visions being 6th an issue? Bolt and path are the only cards in their color on this list, which seems far more significant if you're trying extrapolate some conclusion based on the list.
My views on Modern often align with Shmanka's but I'm not entirely sure where he was going with that list of cards.
That's fine, I don't feel like I even particularly explained my position well once I read my post over myself.
I feel that top 10 list isn't healthy, most of the cards by themselves are quite fine individually in a Modern format, but what that list also shows is a forced reaction. It's all anti-aggro or cards that align themselves with the hyper-aggro decks, the only exceptions are Serum Visions, and Tarmogoyf. It's also not just the list, but the margins at which the cards are played. The link is accessible in a previous post, so anyone can go there to look further.
Why does Bant Eldrazi take my best card on turn 2? and I can't even cast Bloodbraid Elf Turn 4?
Why does Dredge look at their top 18, 15, or 12 cards of their deck with ETB triggers but I'm not allowed to cast Ponder?
Why does Infect punish you to not tap out on turn 2 but we can't use Splinter Twin to punish people for tapping out on turn 3?
Why does Burn kill me turn 3 but I can't even cast a Stoneforge Mystic?
Why does Dredge die to Leyline of the Void while, say, Skred is unaffected? Why does control get to draw 3 cards for 1 mana but I can't play Treasure Cruise in my Jeskai Ascendancy deck? Why should you be allowed to cast SFM and get a 2-mana discount on Batterskull when I can't even get a 2 mana discount with Seething Song?
You can't have your cake and eat it, that's why. If you want to play a "fair" deck, by definition, you're not going to be able to do all the stuff that unfair decks can do. On the flip side, unfair decks die more easily to hate than fair decks. I don't ***** about losing to grave hate when I play Dredge.
Stoneforge Mystic is the 25th [most] commonly played spell
Is that supposed to mean much when, let's see, TKS is 27th and nothing unique to Dredge, Infect or Burn is in top 50?
Bloodbraid Elf isn't even in the top 50.
why are people fleeing and playing Frontier? What's the actual purpose of that entire format? Ask yourselves.
1) Standard rotation, which has nothing to do with Modern
2) $$$, which has something to do with Modern, but nothing to do with its banned list (other than imprisoning Jace there forever)
3) b/c it's the cool new thing, like Tiny Leaders and Eternal
Also, please show me your source for people "fleeing and playing Frontier". Playing Frontier without dropping Modern completely doesn't count as "fleeing".
Many people disagree with me but i think that Blighted agent is what makes Infect stupid. You can interact in a more traditional way with the other infect threats but this one only interacts with removal, wich makes the game less strategic and more one-dimentional.
The same goes for Dredge, you can't interact in any way that you do against other decks, you can't discard key cards or counter the dredge mechanic, and its so useless to kill their creatures, its just sad.
The luck factor will always be there but if you allow uninteractive cards and uninteractive strategies the game will be pretty much 100% defined by luck.
This post is on point, although I may not agree with the poster on every issue, this is exactly correct. Transformational sideboards would clutter the gameplay we currently experience.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
"Uninteractive" strategies are a natural counter weight to the reality that Jund is the most popular deck in the format. If your opponents goal is to shred your hand and remove any relative cards then running essentially equivalent cards is a smart strategy. You cast a 1c.c. discard spell and get to choose 1 of my functionally identical cards has less of a impact if say 5-6 of the cards in my hand are functionally 2 different spells(small creature or pump spell for example). Jund preys on the ability to invalidate the opponents hand, remove what you cannot contain with removal and leave the opponent in a poor position to mount a offense against you until they draw out of it. Decks like DSZoo, URprowess, Infect, Burn etc.... all share the quality that they generally disregard what their opponent is attempting to do and focus on simply pressuring their life total. While this doesn't make for the most fulfilling game for the jund player(mid-range/control) it is a very rational strategy to attack your opponent in a way that invalidates their superior armaments.
It is very much like the "Art of War" Sun Wu leads the Wu against the Chu; the Chu have a larger and more superior military in all regards. Sun Wu beats them not by confronting them directly but by leading small raiding parties who rush into enemy cities and inflict as much damage as possible before quickly fleeing. The superior forces of the Chu while better equipped in terms of the quality of armaments is not structurally capable of deploying its assets against what at the time was "unconventional" battle tactics.
The current problem for the Chu.....I mean the Jund player isn't that they cannot deal with these types of strategies it is that while these types of strategies are pressuring on one front; Modern has gained new forces it must deal with in Bant Eldrazi and Dredge. This puts the Jund player in the position of needing defend two fronts against forces presenting radically different strategies.
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WU Yorion, Sky Nomad
Let's take Tron vs Jund match up for example. There isn't much that Jund can do to interact with it, however, Tron isn't making something complete uninteractive, its just casting big creatures and planeswalkers. I agree that it has to exist very different strategies, but ones that absolutely have no interaction like dredge just makes the game luck oriented. you can play combo or Tron if the meta is heavy on Jund, but then you'll have to watch out for Infect, Burn and very fast aggro strategies. Dredge just don't have to concern about the matchup most of times.
I suggest no changes.
You want to play your more traditional control, we got some flavors, you want to play your prison control, we got more flavots, aggro, combo, midrange, combinations of these we got all the flavors. Cheep decks, decks that cost an arm and a leg, we got winning decks for both.
My H/W list
So true. There is absolutely nothing to complain about.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Instead of printing more hate cards, or growing the sideboard slots to 20 in Modern, Wizards needs to take a different approach with their "hate".
Unfortunately, we need more versatile answer cards that don't completely suck if you stick them in your maindeck, but also won't 100% blow out your opponent if they land. Right now, given the state of the meta, there needs to be more answers to aggro decks (or aggro-combo) and decks that can just burn you out.
It's funny you say this because abrupt decay isn't really that good IMO. The fact it can't hit lands hurts a lot (inkmoth/ravine/valakut/tron), then you have eldrazi/delve/infect creatures where the creatures come down fast but cmc is over 3 or are still protected from it, and lastly where it is good is basically just againt lili and maybe BM when you aren't using it as a creature removal spell (where normally terminate and such are just better). K command is a great card and is a much better example IMO but it's almost too slow right now too. I think a better example of what your saying for a utility hate card is like scavenging ooze where it's never really bad or useless because it's a 2/2 for 2 and has gy hate but if not needed its ability isn't useless because it can just be a bigger threat.
I feel like your criticism of dredge can be applied to wide variety of decks depending no the match up. To be honest I haven't played my Jund deck since Twin was banned so I don't have experience with how poor the match up is. I do know from playing Grixis builds(competitive) and RU(janky fun) that dredge cares a good deal about resolved Young Pyromancers as they only tend to be able to win game one if I resolve one with a conflagrate.
Its my opinion that Jund currently in a situation where it needs to look at structural issues with its build. Jund has essentially been the same build for the last few years, and it seems like the outrage of Jund players is focused on two new competitive decks Dredge and Bant Eldrazi. It seems to be a resentment that what has always been good against everything except Tron is now bad against Tron, Dredge, and Bant Eldrazi. This puts it more in line with the majority of other modern decks which tend to have 2-4 bad match ups. I don't hold the opinion that Jund or any other deck is a "pillar" of the health of the format and that any shifts in the format which invalidate its status as tier 1 is automatically a negative reflection of the health of the format.
But I also hold a generally optimistic view of things like this so...
Oh man, it has been a while. If any of you guys are newer, I just wanna point out Badd I've always looked up to. He's a smart cookie.
And to add my two cents. Ive found this to be the overwhelming case. The reason why aggro is so powerful and control is because the aggro cards are plentiful to find, and all do powerful things, where the flexable control cards are few and far inbetween, and even then, most of them arent the same kind of powerlevel. Decay and K command are really the only ones I can think of that are on the same scale. Compare serium visions to blossoming defence. one reads "I can try and find something on my top two to help at the cost of 1 mana and 0 cards." The other, more often than not, says "counter spell at 1 mana, I get a buff, and we both discard a card."
the first card gives a little card selection at 0 card advantage, neither good nor bad there, while the other one gives creature protection, and a buff, at 0 card advantage, neither good nor bad.
Broken down into its raw source managements, one card does more than the other.
It's the issue in relation to the banned list for most Mid-range players (myself included), we have some basic questions for the community as a whole.
Why does Bant Eldrazi take my best card on turn 2? and I can't even cast Bloodbraid Elf Turn 4?
Why does Dredge look at their top 18, 15, or 12 cards of their deck with ETB triggers but I'm not allowed to cast Ponder?
Why does Infect punish you to not tap out on turn 2 but we can't use Splinter Twin to punish people for tapping out on turn 3?
Why does Burn kill me turn 3 but I can't even cast a Stoneforge Mystic?
Seriously, look at Stoneforge Mystic in this list ;
MTGGoldfish says in Legacy it's the 25th commonly played spell, with an 11.66% dominance rate, in 12.57% of the decks. Then half this forum is crapping their pants about never unbanning it. We are talking about a format with less board removal pretty much shrugging at a Stoneforge Mystic. Now scroll down even more, then you'll notice Bloodbraid Elf.... isn't even in the top 50.
We have to stop claiming that these cards are gonna steroid decks like Abzan and Jund. Newsflash! they already did steroid Abzan and Jund, it's called Bant Eldrazi, and it's the kind of steroid they use on those freaky Bulls.
This complete joke of a banned list, has seriously gone on long enough. If you think I'm wrong, why are people fleeing and playing Frontier? What's the actual purpose of that entire format? Ask yourselves.
The issue is that the metagame is too broad at the moment which means that, like Decay, there are some MU's where these cards will still completely suck (against Dredge, G/R Valakut or Tron for example).
I mean, Collective Brutality is good against combo discarding a relevant combo piece, all modes can be solid against fast aggro while making up tempo with its escalate ability if needed, and solid against control/midrange by luring out a counter or discarding a removal/other.
Another possible maindeckable card coming out of Aether Revolt is Disallow. Albeit only playable as a 1-2 of, it still looks incredibly versatile, being able to stop a Planeswalker ult, functioning as a Stone Rain if wanted, hard countering something etc., meaning WoTC may be following those criteria more than we think. Now as you correctly pointed out, these new cards cannot completely blow out your opponent, making it hard to print such cards by finding that perfect balance.
What I would like to see from Aether Revolt is a versatile card similar to Collective Brutality's power level with a variety of applications, including interacting with the graveyard. This would also help the current lack of graveyard hate in standard which is letting Emrakul run rampant.
No you don't get it, Modern is dead. It doesn't matter that it sees ever increasing attendance numbers, or Modern Masters product flies off shelves. Its got to be true, Shmanka said so.
My H/W list
Bant Eldrazi casts turn 2 Thought-Knot a small percentage of the time. Another small percentage of the time it mulls, finds no mana accelerants, and casts an Eldrazi Displacer/Skyspawner on turn 3. I actually find the deck pretty overrated. Jund on the other hand does not rely on synergy but on sheer card power, and Bloodbraid is just an insane top end for such a deck. Not to say I wouldn't like to see BBE unbanned, but I understand the skepticism.
Infect and Splinter Twin are not really comparable in that way. You see Infects threat and can interact with it accordingly, if there is no threat then you can do whatever you want. Twin on the other hand does not let you tap specific amounts of mana after turn 3 (turn 2 if on the draw), threatening to deploy a bolt-proof creature EOT and winning on the spot. Even if the Splinter Twin players hand has 0 combo pieces, you have to respect the possibillity of just dying out of nowhere meaning that you stop playing a regular game of magic and have to wait for your opponent to make a move (which can be next turn with Dispel back up while you didn't to anything to further your gameplan). This is especially troublesome due to the decks ease in changing roles between aggro/combo and control. In all honesty, I personally wouldn't want to see Splinter Twin back in modern.
I can't defend Dredge since I find the mechanic pretty disgustingly broken, and I do agree that Ponder/Stoneforge can be given a shot if tested properly beforehand. But in all seriousness though, in which way would Stoneforge Msytic help the current metagame? Unbanning it would mostly just push midrange decks not running Kolaghan's even more out of the format, or make them run Stoneforge themselves, while not tackling the metagames current "issues" since it's too slow/irrelevant against most of the aggro decks.
Last but not least, If I had to classify something as a "complete joke", it would be Frontier.
All sarcasm aside, I'd love to see your stats on the recent 6 months for increasing attendance numbers. Because I know online isn't doing well. That's usually an indicator of a greater issue if we have learnt from the past.
Look at why Frontier has been created, it has a way easier barrier of entry post leaving a Standard format, multiple tournaments have shown that the "busted" cards everyone claims haven't been busted whatsoever, and the level of interaction is quite high. Yes it will have degenerate things happen to it over time, but that time isn't now. So obviously there is some awkward feeling to this entire situation, because we know Extended failed miserably in the past, so why in essence re-create it?
When you lose confidence in Magic, it definitely sinks in and shows up in suttle ways. Maybe less people show up at your store, that's obvious. Maybe though it's how much card prices have tanked, maybe its SCG claiming they can barely hold onto their tour, maybe it's the fact that I can buy 120 Hearthstone packs for the price of 4 Force of Will online.
What really matters is that there are people here who think having 30%+ of the metagame being super proactive yet uninteractive decks in the metagame is a sign of health. We set the bar so high on some aspects of this format, that the banned list can't even measure up in too many cases. Having no said announcements to help relieve the stress of just being Become Immense'd or smashed with Eldrazi for over 9 months with no sign of change doesn't bode well at all.
As of today this is the top 10 cards played in Modern;
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
5 Mutagenic Growth
6 Serum Visions
7 Noble Hierarch
8 Nature's Claim
9 Thoughtseize
10 Tarmogoyf
I'm not sure this is exactly what people call healthy, and if you believe it is, I would love your explanation.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
So lets not dwell on Frontier for too long. Gives it way more attention than it deserves. Its Modern-light, and it serves no purpose other than to further fragment the player-base.
Oh, also, Im pretty sure Frontier is just another way for stores to sell their *****ty bulk rares. If you think Frontier will be more diverse and harder to solve with its NWO cards, and much, much smaller card pool; I have a bridge in Kansas I want to sell you.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
1: Lightning bolt
Well, its the modern card, any nearly anyone playing red will play the set. Nothing surprising.
2: Path to Exile
See above. Usually decks playing this are ones interested in being interactive.
3: Gitaxian Probe
This is a huge red flag. Almost no one who aims to play a fair game of magic is playing probe in modern. Young pyromancer is really the only exception, and percentage wise, its tiny compared to all of the pump-spell aggro decks. The fact that this is the third most played card is indicative of what we already know, that modern favors linear, unfair decks.
4: Inqusition of Kozilek
Similar to path, indicitive of popular interactive decks. The fact that this sees more play over thoughtseize is also an arrow to what we know, that this meta is very aggressive.
5: Mutagenic growth
This is also fairly bad. This card is relatively narrow, only very fast, non interactive decks want this, decks that can afford to play a card with such a steep drop-off in power. The fact that this beats out other common format staples is worrying.
6: Serum visions
Blue's equivilant to bolt/path/inqusition/goyf. Despite is being the quintessential blue card in the format (with the possible exception of snapcaster mage) the fact that it only ranks 6 is significant. Gitaxian probe ranks higher than this.
7: Noble hierarch
By itself, this card is fine. Nothing it does is particularly unfair or troublesome. The issue is that the two decks commonly using it, bant eldrazi and infect, are not particularly interactive.
8: Nature's claim
This is also fairly significant, I feel. Nothing wrong with the card, but a sideboard card at best sees more play than tarmogoyf right now. Its here mostly because of infect and dredge's popularity, though decks like bant eldrazi, tron, and r/g valakut also play it. You may notice that none of those decks are particularly interactive.
9: Thoughtseize
Nothing particular to add here.
10: Tarmogoyf
The fact that goyf makes the top 10 is not surprising, as like bolt, hes one of the ubiquitous modern cards. The cards that beat him out, I feel, are fairly surprising.
I don't think that data shows me anything I didn't already know/suspect, but I think looking at that and claiming everything is fine (or atleast, balanced/evenly represented) is ignorant of the reasons those cards make the list.
Sure, nature's claim interacts, but everyone playing it is only doing so to remove the hate pieces stopping them from killing as fast as they can.
We've had to issue several infractions in this thread already.
The purpose of this new thread is not to re-create all of the problems of the previous Banned and Restricted list discussion thread.
Keep your posts constructive and focused on productive, meaningful discussion.
Posts that are borderline trolling or flaming will be infracted.
Posts that are not constructive will be infracted.
Posts that violate the rules of this thread will be infracted.
Personal note: Blatant Hyperbole is not conducive to reasoned, productive discussion. I would personally recommend you refrain from its use--it is not an effective tool for debate, only for rhetoric and oratory, and leads rapidly to ad-hominem attacks.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Gitaxian Probe is about as blue as mutagenic growth is green. The top 5 modern cards are in the 5 different colors, so why is serum visions being 6th an issue? Bolt and path are the only cards in their color on this list, which seems far more significant if you're trying extrapolate some conclusion based on the list.
My H/W list
That's fine, I don't feel like I even particularly explained my position well once I read my post over myself.
I feel that top 10 list isn't healthy, most of the cards by themselves are quite fine individually in a Modern format, but what that list also shows is a forced reaction. It's all anti-aggro or cards that align themselves with the hyper-aggro decks, the only exceptions are Serum Visions, and Tarmogoyf. It's also not just the list, but the margins at which the cards are played. The link is accessible in a previous post, so anyone can go there to look further.
You can't have your cake and eat it, that's why. If you want to play a "fair" deck, by definition, you're not going to be able to do all the stuff that unfair decks can do. On the flip side, unfair decks die more easily to hate than fair decks. I don't ***** about losing to grave hate when I play Dredge.
Is that supposed to mean much when, let's see, TKS is 27th and nothing unique to Dredge, Infect or Burn is in top 50?
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/pages/format_frontier.aspx
1) Standard rotation, which has nothing to do with Modern
2) $$$, which has something to do with Modern, but nothing to do with its banned list (other than imprisoning Jace there forever)
3) b/c it's the cool new thing, like Tiny Leaders and Eternal
Also, please show me your source for people "fleeing and playing Frontier". Playing Frontier without dropping Modern completely doesn't count as "fleeing".
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.