Stoneforge Mystic is part of that group of cards that ended up being way too good at all points in the game much like Umezawa's Jitte and Deathrite Shaman. As much as a lot of equipment deck folks want it unbanned, I think it would cause more problems eventually than it would fix since they wouldn't be able to print strong equipment. Speaking of which, they haven't printed strong equipment in quite a while outside of the reprinting of swords as master pieces so why is that argument point even valid? I'm pretty sure that it was a design article somewhere that WoTC published that even mentioned that detail about equipment, and now they are printing arguably the two strongest artifact pseudo equipment cards they've ever printed in a very long time with Smuggler's Copter and Heart of Kiran instead.
Well if you mean by "a long time" the last Artifact centered block then yes its been awhile. I know they didn't consider printing many if any good equipment cards this go around because of the design needing to allow Vehicles to shine. Honestly this line of thought is to say every instance of wizards of the cost having a set which featured strong equipment cards has produced a OP'ed or busted equipment card, hence it is unlikely to occur again. I mean really they are 0-2 on doing the equipment matters sets and not producing broken interactions.
The point you made about her value I generally agree with. Just a value card that helps grindy decks out grind other grindy decks.
We know Wizards considers Batterskull and the Scars-block Swords mistakes. In the off chance they make a critical mistake, it would be treated like previous (and much more obvious/format-warping/oppressive) mistakes like New Eldrazi and Cruise/Dig. Plus it just seems so unlikely to me after that last 5 years of Equipment in Standard we'll ever see anything even close to Batterskull. And the thing that really makes SFM-Batterskull powerful (Living Weapon) is high on the Storm Scale.
That's not to say I don't have any concerns when it comes to SFM, but I've never really found the "But Equiptment!" argument very persuasive. I know WotC doesn't like locking itself out of design space, but by their own admission, that design space is closed for good anyways.
This line of thought seems odd to me. As thought admission of a mistake some how absolves the possibility for error. You know what the real odd trend is? WotC prints a warping card and does it again and again and regardless of what happens will do it again and again into the future. It would be to ignore all the evidence over 20 long years to assume that now at this time will WotC stop making design errors, the fact that they have said they don't test new cards with anything other than standard/limited in mind means that if they determine X is good for those formats lets print say 15-30 cards with the X mechanic and X turns out to be busted in Modern etc..... that is a minor after thought and keeping SFM banned is just potentially easier than needing to ban a slew of other cards.
the idea that only "living weapon" is dangerous and since they said they wont do that again we have no need for concern is short sighted. If they had a cycle of equipment with alternate cost, static abilities outside of combat boosts etc... the possibilities are literally endless.
But the idea isn't that only living weapon is dangerous. MaRo has said development made a mistake with Sword of War and Peace/Sword of Feast and Famine, and that they won't print such powerful equipment again. So it doesn't seem off-base to assume they won't do so intentionally.
My greater point isn't "Just unban SFM and then just ban whatever until its balanced" as much as "WotC plans never to make another equipment more powerful than what we have right now. Of course, everyone makes mistakes, and if they do, we have a precedent for how they handle it." That's not an argument that SFM should for sure come off the ban list, but rather that I just don't buy the design space limitation argument.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
But the idea isn't that only living weapon is dangerous. MaRo has said development made a mistake with Sword of War and Peace/Sword of Feast and Famine, and that they won't print such powerful equipment again. So it doesn't seem off-base to assume they won't do so intentionally.
My greater point isn't "Just unban SFM and then just ban whatever until its balanced" as much as "WotC plans never to make another equipment more powerful than what we have right now. Of course, everyone makes mistakes, and if they do, we have a precedent for how they handle it." That's not an argument that SFM should for sure come off the ban list, but rather that I just don't buy the design space limitation argument.
Just because they are not going to print something with the same brute power as the swords, doesn't mean we won't see equipment that aren't powerful enough/have a broken interaction for eternal.
But the idea isn't that only living weapon is dangerous. MaRo has said development made a mistake with Sword of War and Peace/Sword of Feast and Famine, and that they won't print such powerful equipment again. So it doesn't seem off-base to assume they won't do so intentionally.
My greater point isn't "Just unban SFM and then just ban whatever until its balanced" as much as "WotC plans never to make another equipment more powerful than what we have right now. Of course, everyone makes mistakes, and if they do, we have a precedent for how they handle it." That's not an argument that SFM should for sure come off the ban list, but rather that I just don't buy the design space limitation argument.
Just because they are not going to print something with the same brute power as the swords, doesn't mean we won't see equipment that aren't powerful enough/have a broken interaction for eternal.
Which is a fair assessment. However, if the future equipment you referenced is "broken" in eternal then it could be banned. the fact is a 1/2 for 2 that nets you a card and POTENTIALLY cheats it into play is just not as good as all the propaganda makes it out to be. If they are not printing equipment as powerful as the swords anymore then she is as good as she will ever be which is just not oppressive. Good sure but not oppressive.
You know how in dragon ball z the power levels of the fighters just kept getting more and more ridiculous? Then they tried a reset in GT and at the end they went even higher?
Modern is like that.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You know how in dragon ball z the power levels of the fighters just kept getting more and more ridiculous? Then they tried a reset in GT and at the end they went even higher?
Modern is like that.
That's actually a surprisingly good analogy. /thumbsup
I do wonder if the power level of Modern has risen to the point where the upper limits wouldn't change much with some JTMS/SFM, or if instead those cards would just take the high water mark and push it even higher. And if so, where and by how much. We don't have the obvious "Twin gets better" (or even the "Stoneforge Twin") out any longer.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
You know how in dragon ball z the power levels of the fighters just kept getting more and more ridiculous? Then they tried a reset in GT and at the end they went even higher?
Modern is like that.
That's actually a surprisingly good analogy. /thumbsup
I do wonder if the power level of Modern has risen to the point where the upper limits wouldn't change much with some JTMS/SFM, or if instead those cards would just take the high water mark and push it even higher. And if so, where and by how much. We don't have the obvious "Twin gets better" (or even the "Stoneforge Twin") out any longer.
All I can say is that if the power level is strong enough to support JTMS and Stoneforge Mystic we need a new format. I mean, at that point even Deathrite Shaman can come off the books. Of course, now that I had to make a DBZ analogy, talking about bringing things back into legality that were originally banned for being too strong is reminding me of when that one villain opened the hell gate and let every last villain from the series back into the living world.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What most of you miss about equipment is two aspects:
1. fundamentally, equipment doesn't do anything on its own.
Living weapon broke this rule, and it ended up at what, like an 8 or a 9 on the storm scale overall, with batterskull being a huge development mistake? That problem is not going to happen again. Furthermore, any *other* change to equipment to make it do stuff is going to come under more scrutiny and power level care than living weapon did, because of how bad living weapon was.
2. Fundamentally, stoneforge mystic is not a "fast" card--it can't effectively impact the battlefield at all really until the third turn, and outside of RARE (read: mechanics that are already known development mistakes) circumstances can't seriously impact the board until the 4th turn.
3. Fundamentally, stoneforge mystic is not "hard" to interact with.
A. It's vulnerable to discard the first turn you play it.
B. It's vulnerable to removal the first turn you play it. (both of these net your opponent a "card", but that just makes them an extremely narrow 2-for-1--nothing that modern isn't absolutely fine with in a grindy game)
C. If you're playing the grind game and not abusing batterskull or other living weapon cards, it's vulnerable to removal on the creatures EVERY TIME you move to equip it (remember, equip is a sorcery speed activated ability with a target), which also lets you negate the "card advantage" of searching up the equipment in the first place.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
But the idea isn't that only living weapon is dangerous. MaRo has said development made a mistake with Sword of War and Peace/Sword of Feast and Famine, and that they won't print such powerful equipment again. So it doesn't seem off-base to assume they won't do so intentionally.
My greater point isn't "Just unban SFM and then just ban whatever until its balanced" as much as "WotC plans never to make another equipment more powerful than what we have right now. Of course, everyone makes mistakes, and if they do, we have a precedent for how they handle it." That's not an argument that SFM should for sure come off the ban list, but rather that I just don't buy the design space limitation argument.
I understand that WotC never plans on making totally busted stuff but the reality is they still do. I assume they don't ever intentionally create design errors but the reality is regardless of their desire not to they still do. After all this is the same game designers who said that they where aware that Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple might make the new Eldrazi too good and still produced them in a way that has rattled eternal formats. And this is part of the reason why I have no faith in WotC not producing things that will be busted in Modern etc... they only test for Standard/Limited if it isn't OP'ed in standard than it doesn't matter what repercussions it might have on eternal formats, Treasure Cruise, the mini-Eldrazi, etc... those are just recent design choices that turned out to be fine in standard but broken in all eternal formats. WotC had a article some years ago about the potential for returns of Future Sight time shifted mechanics and I remember them saying that they likely would never revisit Delve as a mechanic because it was to strong in eternal formats....years later lets just make a set with Delve as the showcase mechanic...
The reality is if it makes for good Limited/safe in Standard play WotC will simply print busted stuff from time to time... WotC has a difficult task in designing new and fun cards and perhaps its good that they don't really learn lessons from mistakes but it does sometimes mean that 20 years after Ancestral Recall we are still getting Treasure Cruise from time to time. I've been playing Mtg since 96' and in that time WotC has earned my faith that they will keep the game fun but not that they will not have some rather regular whops moments on the design side.
But the idea isn't that only living weapon is dangerous. MaRo has said development made a mistake with Sword of War and Peace/Sword of Feast and Famine, and that they won't print such powerful equipment again. So it doesn't seem off-base to assume they won't do so intentionally.
My greater point isn't "Just unban SFM and then just ban whatever until its balanced" as much as "WotC plans never to make another equipment more powerful than what we have right now. Of course, everyone makes mistakes, and if they do, we have a precedent for how they handle it." That's not an argument that SFM should for sure come off the ban list, but rather that I just don't buy the design space limitation argument.
I understand that WotC never plans on making totally busted stuff but the reality is they still do. I assume they don't ever intentionally create design errors but the reality is regardless of their desire not to they still do. After all this is the same game designers who said that they where aware that Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple might make the new Eldrazi too good and still produced them in a way that has rattled eternal formats. And this is part of the reason why I have no faith in WotC not producing things that will be busted in Modern etc... they only test for Standard/Limited if it isn't OP'ed in standard than it doesn't matter what repercussions it might have on eternal formats, Treasure Cruise, the mini-Eldrazi, etc... those are just recent design choices that turned out to be fine in standard but broken in all eternal formats. WotC had a article some years ago about the potential for returns of Future Sight time shifted mechanics and I remember them saying that they likely would never revisit Delve as a mechanic because it was to strong in eternal formats....years later lets just make a set with Delve as the showcase mechanic...
The reality is if it makes for good Limited/safe in Standard play WotC will simply print busted stuff from time to time... WotC has a difficult task in designing new and fun cards and perhaps its good that they don't really learn lessons from mistakes but it does sometimes mean that 20 years after Ancestral Recall we are still getting Treasure Cruise from time to time. I've been playing Mtg since 96' and in that time WotC has earned my faith that they will keep the game fun but not that they will not have some rather regular whops moments on the design side.
Agree that they can't avoid making design mistakes from time to time. Disagree that this fact precludes the removal of stoneforge mystic from the ban-list. Equipment has three "knobs" they can turn: what it costs to cast, what it costs to equip, and what it does. If you twist up the "equip" cost, it almost doesn't matter how good the equipment is--UNLESS it can do things without being equipped to a creature. If you twist the casting-cost knob on an equipment, then it's extremely vulnerable to discard and/or removal for a squire. In the modern format. Even if they get past that barrier and put it into play, equip is still a sorcery-speed ability that can be responded to with removal. The only knob that is problematic to the future impact of stoneforge mystic in the modern format is the "what it does" part of equipment.
Equipment = artifact that can be attached to a creature you control, via an equip cost of some kind. This is the fundamental use of an equipment. Equipment that doesn't do this (AKA equipment that does other stuff) is really flavorfully not equipment and thus unlikely to see print anyway, and equipment that does stuff + be an equipment is gated by standard, which has essentially been soft-capped at batterskull because of the admitted development mistake there COMBINED with the design mistake of living weapon as a mechanic. WOTC is not going to mess up with a living weapon card better than batterskull, so they have to invent a new mechanic that essentially impacts the board when the equipment ETB's, that is balanced in standard, AND worth the risks of building around it in modern.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
All I can say is that if the power level is strong enough to support JTMS and Stoneforge Mystic we need a new format. I mean, at that point even Deathrite Shaman can come off the books.
I would actually say neither Jace, the Mind Sculptor nor Stoneforge Mystic (especially when Jitte isn't legal) are at the level of power of Deathrite Shaman.
Though I see nothing wrong with the format getting to a sufficient power level that all those cards would be fine to begin with, honestly.
All I can say is that if the power level is strong enough to support JTMS and Stoneforge Mystic we need a new format. I mean, at that point even Deathrite Shaman can come off the books.
I would actually say neither Jace, the Mind Sculptor nor Stoneforge Mystic (especially when Jitte isn't legal) are at the level of power of Deathrite Shaman.
Though I see nothing wrong with the format getting to a sufficient power level that all those cards would be fine to begin with, honestly.
I agree on many levels. Deathrite Shaman is not only more pushed for its cost than Jace is at his cost, it also naturally slides into some of the format's pre-eminent decks as an auto-include (IMO). I feel like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind sculptor would have a lower overall impact even though they're more dramatic, flashy cards with a greater history of abuse.
Then again, waddo I know?
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
All I can say is that if the power level is strong enough to support JTMS and Stoneforge Mystic we need a new format. I mean, at that point even Deathrite Shaman can come off the books.
I would actually say neither Jace, the Mind Sculptor nor Stoneforge Mystic (especially when Jitte isn't legal) are at the level of power of Deathrite Shaman.
Though I see nothing wrong with the format getting to a sufficient power level that all those cards would be fine to begin with, honestly.
I agree on many levels. Deathrite Shaman is not only more pushed for its cost than Jace is at his cost, it also naturally slides into some of the format's pre-eminent decks as an auto-include (IMO). I feel like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind sculptor would have a lower overall impact even though they're more dramatic, flashy cards with a greater history of abuse.
Then again, waddo I know?
I absolutely agree. Would SFM and JTMS be safe or warp the format? We don`t know. It`s hard to say. But DRS would certainly be warping. It just does way too many things in way too many decks.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
All I can say is that if the power level is strong enough to support JTMS and Stoneforge Mystic we need a new format. I mean, at that point even Deathrite Shaman can come off the books.
I would actually say neither Jace, the Mind Sculptor nor Stoneforge Mystic (especially when Jitte isn't legal) are at the level of power of Deathrite Shaman.
Though I see nothing wrong with the format getting to a sufficient power level that all those cards would be fine to begin with, honestly.
I would think it would help the formate.
Deck brewing, truth there is no control that has any chance against infect or dredge.
But really do you think wizards cares or reads what people think?
Slight change of subject, but what effect if any do people expect to how Wizards handles the ban list now that there's no longer a Modern PT? (Assuming that decision wasn't rescinded again when I wasn't looking.)
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Slight change of subject, but what effect if any do people expect to how Wizards handles the ban list now that there's no longer a Modern PT? (Assuming that decision wasn't rescinded again when I wasn't looking.)
If it's not selling there packs why should they care.
Seams to me, wizards cares nothing more than there pack sales.
Standard and draft is where there money is made...
Slight change of subject, but what effect if any do people expect to how Wizards handles the ban list now that there's no longer a Modern PT? (Assuming that decision wasn't rescinded again when I wasn't looking.)
I think they will focus more on unbans than bans, and let the format evolve on its own, stepping in only if we get an eldrazi/drs situation
Stoneforge Mystic is part of that group of cards that ended up being way too good at all points in the game much like Umezawa's Jitte and Deathrite Shaman. As much as a lot of equipment deck folks want it unbanned, I think it would cause more problems eventually than it would fix since they wouldn't be able to print strong equipment. Speaking of which, they haven't printed strong equipment in quite a while outside of the reprinting of swords as master pieces so why is that argument point even valid? I'm pretty sure that it was a design article somewhere that WoTC published that even mentioned that detail about equipment, and now they are printing arguably the two strongest artifact pseudo equipment cards they've ever printed in a very long time with Smuggler's Copter and Heart of Kiran instead.
You could make the same argument about snap "limiting design" for instants/sorceries. Wizards has stated TONS of times that they don't test for modern. Mystic is as powerful of Goyf is in modern imho.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Slight change of subject, but what effect if any do people expect to how Wizards handles the ban list now that there's no longer a Modern PT? (Assuming that decision wasn't rescinded again when I wasn't looking.)
Less bans:
No bans for shaking up the PT,
bans that are only subject to turn 4 rule violation.
I still think tournament logistical violations will be relevant and egregious metagame share breakers.
Slight change of subject, but what effect if any do people expect to how Wizards handles the ban list now that there's no longer a Modern PT? (Assuming that decision wasn't rescinded again when I wasn't looking.)
Less bans:
No bans for shaking up the PT,
bans that are only subject to turn 4 rule violation.
I still think tournament logistical violations will be relevant and egregious metagame share breakers.
Hm. Maybe you are right. Lets agree on WOTC banning for PT shakeup no more. I am unsure if Splinter Twin was such, but if it was they should unban that following that logic.
I agree. If Splinter Twin doesn't produce a heinously lopsided metagame (it didn't), then it should be unbanned.
Stoneforge Mystic is part of that group of cards that ended up being way too good at all points in the game much like Umezawa's Jitte and Deathrite Shaman. As much as a lot of equipment deck folks want it unbanned, I think it would cause more problems eventually than it would fix since they wouldn't be able to print strong equipment. Speaking of which, they haven't printed strong equipment in quite a while outside of the reprinting of swords as master pieces so why is that argument point even valid? I'm pretty sure that it was a design article somewhere that WoTC published that even mentioned that detail about equipment, and now they are printing arguably the two strongest artifact pseudo equipment cards they've ever printed in a very long time with Smuggler's Copter and Heart of Kiran instead.
Well if you mean by "a long time" the last Artifact centered block then yes its been awhile. I know they didn't consider printing many if any good equipment cards this go around because of the design needing to allow Vehicles to shine. Honestly this line of thought is to say every instance of wizards of the cost having a set which featured strong equipment cards has produced a OP'ed or busted equipment card, hence it is unlikely to occur again. I mean really they are 0-2 on doing the equipment matters sets and not producing broken interactions.
The point you made about her value I generally agree with. Just a value card that helps grindy decks out grind other grindy decks.
we are in an artifact themed block right now...
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Isn't Prison just a subtype of Control? If you subdivide archtypes to infinity, i guess you can make any archtype look unrepresented.
For instance, there is no aggro since DSA, Suicide bloo, Burn, Infect, Dredge and Affinity are all (considered) aggro-combo decks. So no aggro?
Bro.
edit: I think this is a good time to bring up the definitions of archtypes. I'm not sure we need definitions exactly - crowdsourcing that sort of thing might not be so easy to do in this type of medium.
So, on the premise that some people feel certain archtypes are not represented:
What are the archtypes that we want to consider for balance/diversity?
Is it: Aggro, Combo, Midrange, Control
Or: Aggro, aggro-combo, tempo, midrange, prison, control, ramp, combo?
something else?
How many archtypes are there for consideration when we speak of a lack of archtype diversity? What are they?
In what world does Lanturn control play like Jeskai Nahiri?
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In what world does Lanturn control play like Jeskai Nahiri?
In the same world that Burn plays like Dredge and Infect? Don't we call all those aggro-combo?
The strategy is what makes it control, not the deck's specific tactics. Lantern control looks to control your plays in a prison style lock, where Jeskai looks to control your plays with stack and board interactions. End result is both inhibit other decks from executing their game plan before winning - ergo, control.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
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Well if you mean by "a long time" the last Artifact centered block then yes its been awhile. I know they didn't consider printing many if any good equipment cards this go around because of the design needing to allow Vehicles to shine. Honestly this line of thought is to say every instance of wizards of the cost having a set which featured strong equipment cards has produced a OP'ed or busted equipment card, hence it is unlikely to occur again. I mean really they are 0-2 on doing the equipment matters sets and not producing broken interactions.
The point you made about her value I generally agree with. Just a value card that helps grindy decks out grind other grindy decks.
This line of thought seems odd to me. As thought admission of a mistake some how absolves the possibility for error. You know what the real odd trend is? WotC prints a warping card and does it again and again and regardless of what happens will do it again and again into the future. It would be to ignore all the evidence over 20 long years to assume that now at this time will WotC stop making design errors, the fact that they have said they don't test new cards with anything other than standard/limited in mind means that if they determine X is good for those formats lets print say 15-30 cards with the X mechanic and X turns out to be busted in Modern etc..... that is a minor after thought and keeping SFM banned is just potentially easier than needing to ban a slew of other cards.
the idea that only "living weapon" is dangerous and since they said they wont do that again we have no need for concern is short sighted. If they had a cycle of equipment with alternate cost, static abilities outside of combat boosts etc... the possibilities are literally endless.
My greater point isn't "Just unban SFM and then just ban whatever until its balanced" as much as "WotC plans never to make another equipment more powerful than what we have right now. Of course, everyone makes mistakes, and if they do, we have a precedent for how they handle it." That's not an argument that SFM should for sure come off the ban list, but rather that I just don't buy the design space limitation argument.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Just because they are not going to print something with the same brute power as the swords, doesn't mean we won't see equipment that aren't powerful enough/have a broken interaction for eternal.
Which is a fair assessment. However, if the future equipment you referenced is "broken" in eternal then it could be banned. the fact is a 1/2 for 2 that nets you a card and POTENTIALLY cheats it into play is just not as good as all the propaganda makes it out to be. If they are not printing equipment as powerful as the swords anymore then she is as good as she will ever be which is just not oppressive. Good sure but not oppressive.
Modern is not standard. Most standard cards or even decks would ever be strong enough to make it in modern.
I could see banned both cards if they took over the formate like eye and temple did.
But until proven it is a unjustified jail sentence
You know how in dragon ball z the power levels of the fighters just kept getting more and more ridiculous? Then they tried a reset in GT and at the end they went even higher?
Modern is like that.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That's actually a surprisingly good analogy. /thumbsup
I do wonder if the power level of Modern has risen to the point where the upper limits wouldn't change much with some JTMS/SFM, or if instead those cards would just take the high water mark and push it even higher. And if so, where and by how much. We don't have the obvious "Twin gets better" (or even the "Stoneforge Twin") out any longer.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
All I can say is that if the power level is strong enough to support JTMS and Stoneforge Mystic we need a new format. I mean, at that point even Deathrite Shaman can come off the books. Of course, now that I had to make a DBZ analogy, talking about bringing things back into legality that were originally banned for being too strong is reminding me of when that one villain opened the hell gate and let every last villain from the series back into the living world.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. fundamentally, equipment doesn't do anything on its own.
Living weapon broke this rule, and it ended up at what, like an 8 or a 9 on the storm scale overall, with batterskull being a huge development mistake? That problem is not going to happen again. Furthermore, any *other* change to equipment to make it do stuff is going to come under more scrutiny and power level care than living weapon did, because of how bad living weapon was.
2. Fundamentally, stoneforge mystic is not a "fast" card--it can't effectively impact the battlefield at all really until the third turn, and outside of RARE (read: mechanics that are already known development mistakes) circumstances can't seriously impact the board until the 4th turn.
3. Fundamentally, stoneforge mystic is not "hard" to interact with.
A. It's vulnerable to discard the first turn you play it.
B. It's vulnerable to removal the first turn you play it. (both of these net your opponent a "card", but that just makes them an extremely narrow 2-for-1--nothing that modern isn't absolutely fine with in a grindy game)
C. If you're playing the grind game and not abusing batterskull or other living weapon cards, it's vulnerable to removal on the creatures EVERY TIME you move to equip it (remember, equip is a sorcery speed activated ability with a target), which also lets you negate the "card advantage" of searching up the equipment in the first place.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I understand that WotC never plans on making totally busted stuff but the reality is they still do. I assume they don't ever intentionally create design errors but the reality is regardless of their desire not to they still do. After all this is the same game designers who said that they where aware that Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple might make the new Eldrazi too good and still produced them in a way that has rattled eternal formats. And this is part of the reason why I have no faith in WotC not producing things that will be busted in Modern etc... they only test for Standard/Limited if it isn't OP'ed in standard than it doesn't matter what repercussions it might have on eternal formats, Treasure Cruise, the mini-Eldrazi, etc... those are just recent design choices that turned out to be fine in standard but broken in all eternal formats. WotC had a article some years ago about the potential for returns of Future Sight time shifted mechanics and I remember them saying that they likely would never revisit Delve as a mechanic because it was to strong in eternal formats....years later lets just make a set with Delve as the showcase mechanic...
The reality is if it makes for good Limited/safe in Standard play WotC will simply print busted stuff from time to time... WotC has a difficult task in designing new and fun cards and perhaps its good that they don't really learn lessons from mistakes but it does sometimes mean that 20 years after Ancestral Recall we are still getting Treasure Cruise from time to time. I've been playing Mtg since 96' and in that time WotC has earned my faith that they will keep the game fun but not that they will not have some rather regular whops moments on the design side.
Agree that they can't avoid making design mistakes from time to time. Disagree that this fact precludes the removal of stoneforge mystic from the ban-list. Equipment has three "knobs" they can turn: what it costs to cast, what it costs to equip, and what it does. If you twist up the "equip" cost, it almost doesn't matter how good the equipment is--UNLESS it can do things without being equipped to a creature. If you twist the casting-cost knob on an equipment, then it's extremely vulnerable to discard and/or removal for a squire. In the modern format. Even if they get past that barrier and put it into play, equip is still a sorcery-speed ability that can be responded to with removal. The only knob that is problematic to the future impact of stoneforge mystic in the modern format is the "what it does" part of equipment.
Equipment = artifact that can be attached to a creature you control, via an equip cost of some kind. This is the fundamental use of an equipment. Equipment that doesn't do this (AKA equipment that does other stuff) is really flavorfully not equipment and thus unlikely to see print anyway, and equipment that does stuff + be an equipment is gated by standard, which has essentially been soft-capped at batterskull because of the admitted development mistake there COMBINED with the design mistake of living weapon as a mechanic. WOTC is not going to mess up with a living weapon card better than batterskull, so they have to invent a new mechanic that essentially impacts the board when the equipment ETB's, that is balanced in standard, AND worth the risks of building around it in modern.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I would actually say neither Jace, the Mind Sculptor nor Stoneforge Mystic (especially when Jitte isn't legal) are at the level of power of Deathrite Shaman.
Though I see nothing wrong with the format getting to a sufficient power level that all those cards would be fine to begin with, honestly.
I agree on many levels. Deathrite Shaman is not only more pushed for its cost than Jace is at his cost, it also naturally slides into some of the format's pre-eminent decks as an auto-include (IMO). I feel like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind sculptor would have a lower overall impact even though they're more dramatic, flashy cards with a greater history of abuse.
Then again, waddo I know?
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I would think it would help the formate.
Deck brewing, truth there is no control that has any chance against infect or dredge.
But really do you think wizards cares or reads what people think?
I don't
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
If it's not selling there packs why should they care.
Seams to me, wizards cares nothing more than there pack sales.
Standard and draft is where there money is made...
Oh Ya commander too.
I think they will focus more on unbans than bans, and let the format evolve on its own, stepping in only if we get an eldrazi/drs situation
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
You could make the same argument about snap "limiting design" for instants/sorceries. Wizards has stated TONS of times that they don't test for modern. Mystic is as powerful of Goyf is in modern imho.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I still think tournament logistical violations will be relevant and egregious metagame share breakers.
I agree. If Splinter Twin doesn't produce a heinously lopsided metagame (it didn't), then it should be unbanned.
we are in an artifact themed block right now...
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
In what world does Lanturn control play like Jeskai Nahiri?
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
The strategy is what makes it control, not the deck's specific tactics. Lantern control looks to control your plays in a prison style lock, where Jeskai looks to control your plays with stack and board interactions. End result is both inhibit other decks from executing their game plan before winning - ergo, control.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG