Sure if the turn 4 rule was changed i would have no problem with twin in the format.
However, that is the problem. With the turn four rule around there is no combo deck that can be assembled that would be allowed to continue to exist if it was better than twin. (because twin was exactly at the red line not across it but exactly at it) Any time you try to brew it had to meet this standard of "well why would i do this when i could just play twin?"
This isn't true at all. Infect is a combo deck that's faster than Twin. Storm before the Probe ban was faster than Twin. Suicide Bloo and Zoo were faster than Twin. Sure, these decks all just got hit with a ban, but Infect will continue to be faster than Twin was. Twin's pre-Turn 4 wins were 0%. Infect's were around 12%, and will probably still be above 10%. Decks are allowed to kill on turn 3, but they just can't do it too often or in ways that can't be easily interacted with.
But that is not what i am saying. Those decks could not be allowed to be better than twin. Twin was always tier 1 for good reason as soon as a deck got better that deck had to be killed because the turn 4 rule meant that if you win with any consistency before turn 4 you get banned. Any deck that was geared around NOT winning before turn 4 was not going to be as good as twin. Twins combo required fewer combo pieces than normal combo decks making the core of the deck so good that you could side it out in certain matchups. The reason to brew was gone. That section of the format was solved.
The Turn 4 rule does not exist because of Twin. The Turn 4 rule exists because Legacy is supposed to be a Turn 3 format and Modern is supposed to be a turn slower (4). Also, I don't know what you mean by "allowed to exist." Decks which break the Turn 4 rule get banned, whether Twin is in the format or not (as apparent with the Gitaxian Probe ban just a few days ago). And all powerful Tier 1 decks generally limit the ability to make weird random brews. That's because powerful Tier 1 decks are... well, powerful. None of this really has anything to do with Twin and everything to do with the fact that combo decks are extremely hard to balance without breaking the Turn 4 rule.
I know why the turn 4 rule exists. I am aware that powerful decks suppress random brews. I am saying that decks like Deathshadow Zoo and Prowess type decks would not have existed with twin in the format and even if they had they would get banned if they were better than twin.
Please understand, i am not salty about the deck nor am i salty about the turn 4 rule i just understand why wizards banned the deck. The deck was holding the color blue hostage because the deck was EXACTLY at the red line of being too fast. No deck would be allowed to win consistently faster than twin. It was not about it being to powerful it was about the fact that anything they printed/unbanned just kept making this deck every little bit better. All the while NEVER breaking the turn 4 rule. It did not "break" the turn 4 rule it "abused" it by sitting so close to the line that there was never a chance that another deck could be consistently better. It meant that every deck that got brewed in the combo genre had to live up to the mantra of "but why not twin?".
Btw, just to correct something. Storm COULD be faster than the UR Twin version (not the URg All in version with Birds) but realistically it was a consistent Turn 4.5 deck. Winning on Turn 3 requires basically the nut hand with Mancer + not a single interaction from the opponent.
Greetings,
Kathal
Depends on which Storm deck your talking about. The version of Storm that got Ponder and Preordain banned didn't waste their time playing crappy goblin and could definitely win on turn 3. Storm without Rite of Flame and Cantrips could still win on Turn 3 with the Goblin + Seething Song albeit, much rarer than the original Storm.
Was talking about the current iteration (or that pre Probe ban version to be more exact). That the PT Philly Storm version was a consistent Turn 3 deck is obvious. Btw, that crappy Goblin was the main reason, why Seething Song got banned
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
They should really start unbanning cards next cycle.
1. Jace being banned looks like a joke a this point. He is banned for no other reason than he was banned in standard, by that logic reflector mage is too strong for modern.
2. Preordain needed to be banned before simply to slow down combo, but now that probe is gone this only really powers ad nauseam decks beyond their historic power levels. Everything else would be more or less at it's historic power level.
3. Artifact lands are definitely safer for modern than mox opal, if something that fits into affinity needs to be banned it should be mox opal not these lands. Unbanning them powers up lots of control cards like thirst for knowledge.
4. Jitte, as miserable as this card can be to play against unbanning it would provide a good reason not to play highly aggressive creature decks (lets face it there are still turn 3 aggro decks out there). Assuming that Stoneforge Mystic is perma banned because of it's interaction with Batterskull, Jitte ends up as a 1/2 of in a deck that you need to draw fairly. Additionally it polices the decks that it is best in, so it's probably self correcting.
Look at the ban list for modern. they have taken away almost every consistency card we had. You are asking for them to unban 4 consistency cards. There is no way after working over the years to remove consistency, they will unban them.
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Jitte and artifact lands are definitely not consistency cards.
But anyways preordain/ponder both got banned to power down combos that presumably don't even exist in the current or post ban meta game. Also given the prevalence of discard in modern, preordain is often going to end up being worse than serum visions. Not protecting the card you want to draw on the top of your deck is definitely a relevant thing in the first few turns of a modern game. That being said I think there is a valid argument that unbanning preordain does nothing for modern and that might be correct.
Jace on the other hand definitely does something. Control has always been hurting in modern. Imagine how that would change if you could late game brainstorm away your mana leaks and other irrelevant cards that you are forced to play to survive the first 4 turns of the game? Adding a little bit of late game consistency to an archetype that is often too inconsistent late game to survive doesn't seem like a bad idea. From a consistency point of view Jace is much worse than say pod.
Jitte with the new legend rule is a card, who ever drops it first wins the majority of the time. That is a consistency tool. Please dont say dies to removal.
Artifact lands make Affinity quicker, turn on metal craft sooner and easier, and makes modular faster meaning earlier kills. Consistency tool
Preordain is a consistency card and manipulates your draws. Something Wotc is being very careful with. I dont ever see this card coming off the list or at least for a long time.
JTMS, until I hear from those at Wotc they have changed their stance on the cards they said were dead in the format. I dont undersatnd all the talk about these cards. In the words of Wotc, 'JTMS has a grave in Modern, there are other formats you can play the card in.'
Jitte with the new legend rule is a card, who ever drops it first wins the majority of the time. That is a consistency tool. Please dont say dies to removal.
If that's your definition of 'consistency tool' then ok, but it might be helpful to use a definition the rest of the population would recognize. I suggest that the definition you use is yours alone, and few others would accept it.
Jitte is most certainly not a consistency tool. No more so than grapeshot and tarmogoyf, in any event (which is to say not at all).
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Jitte with the new legend rule is a card, who ever drops it first wins the majority of the time. That is a consistency tool. Please dont say dies to removal.
If that's your definition of 'consistency tool' then ok, but it might be helpful to use a definition the rest of the population would recognize. I suggest that the definition you use is yours alone, and few others would accept it.
Jitte is most certainly not a consistency tool. No more so than grapeshot and tarmogoyf, in any event (which is to say not at all).
I disagree.
Consistency means winning consistently. Jitte being an 'I WIN' card and ways to tutor it up, it is the definition of consistency.
Consistency means decreasing variance in your draws/draw step - it has nothing to do with winning. Any tutor effect to find jitte would be a consistency tool, but not jitte itself.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Btw, just to correct something. Storm COULD be faster than the UR Twin version (not the URg All in version with Birds) but realistically it was a consistent Turn 4.5 deck. Winning on Turn 3 requires basically the nut hand with Mancer + not a single interaction from the opponent.
Greetings,
Kathal
Depends on which Storm deck your talking about. The version of Storm that got Ponder and Preordain banned didn't waste their time playing crappy goblin and could definitely win on turn 3. Storm without Rite of Flame and Cantrips could still win on Turn 3 with the Goblin + Seething Song albeit, much rarer than the original Storm.
I have played storm a good amount in modern. Storm as it was pre this last banning could win on t3 a good amount of time. That being said the sequencing was definitely hard to figure out and the 50% of turn 3 wins that required you to play out electromancer could be interacted with. Not to mention that if the deck didn't win on turn 3 it often lost because it had very few ways of holding off aggro.
When Seething Song was legal, if you played epic experiment over accession you could definitely win on turn 2.
Regardless of whatever definition of consistency. In a creature-centric match up the 1st player who lands a hit with jitte pulls himself way too far ahead. Jitte has no place in this format.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Wizards was spot-on again and did well with the bannings.
Btw, please dont ask for toxic cards like jitte to get unbanned. They are miserable and dont give anything positive. Ask for unbans that would allow new decks into the meta.
And we've come full circle with the ban thread, with meta game info, what is a control deck, and deck construction theory. This thread will now be locked, and the State of Modern thread will be opened again.
To be clear we tolerate trolling, flaming and spam in these threads because of knee jerk reactions to news, but we don't in that State of Modern thread, so do not simply just continue these talks over there. Post with thoughtfulness.
But that is not what i am saying. Those decks could not be allowed to be better than twin. Twin was always tier 1 for good reason as soon as a deck got better that deck had to be killed because the turn 4 rule meant that if you win with any consistency before turn 4 you get banned. Any deck that was geared around NOT winning before turn 4 was not going to be as good as twin. Twins combo required fewer combo pieces than normal combo decks making the core of the deck so good that you could side it out in certain matchups. The reason to brew was gone. That section of the format was solved.
I know why the turn 4 rule exists. I am aware that powerful decks suppress random brews. I am saying that decks like Deathshadow Zoo and Prowess type decks would not have existed with twin in the format and even if they had they would get banned if they were better than twin.
Please understand, i am not salty about the deck nor am i salty about the turn 4 rule i just understand why wizards banned the deck. The deck was holding the color blue hostage because the deck was EXACTLY at the red line of being too fast. No deck would be allowed to win consistently faster than twin. It was not about it being to powerful it was about the fact that anything they printed/unbanned just kept making this deck every little bit better. All the while NEVER breaking the turn 4 rule. It did not "break" the turn 4 rule it "abused" it by sitting so close to the line that there was never a chance that another deck could be consistently better. It meant that every deck that got brewed in the combo genre had to live up to the mantra of "but why not twin?".
Was talking about the current iteration (or that pre Probe ban version to be more exact). That the PT Philly Storm version was a consistent Turn 3 deck is obvious. Btw, that crappy Goblin was the main reason, why Seething Song got banned
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Jitte with the new legend rule is a card, who ever drops it first wins the majority of the time. That is a consistency tool. Please dont say dies to removal.
Artifact lands make Affinity quicker, turn on metal craft sooner and easier, and makes modular faster meaning earlier kills. Consistency tool
Preordain is a consistency card and manipulates your draws. Something Wotc is being very careful with. I dont ever see this card coming off the list or at least for a long time.
JTMS, until I hear from those at Wotc they have changed their stance on the cards they said were dead in the format. I dont undersatnd all the talk about these cards. In the words of Wotc, 'JTMS has a grave in Modern, there are other formats you can play the card in.'
Jitte is most certainly not a consistency tool. No more so than grapeshot and tarmogoyf, in any event (which is to say not at all).
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I disagree.
Consistency means winning consistently. Jitte being an 'I WIN' card and ways to tutor it up, it is the definition of consistency.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I have played storm a good amount in modern. Storm as it was pre this last banning could win on t3 a good amount of time. That being said the sequencing was definitely hard to figure out and the 50% of turn 3 wins that required you to play out electromancer could be interacted with. Not to mention that if the deck didn't win on turn 3 it often lost because it had very few ways of holding off aggro.
When Seething Song was legal, if you played epic experiment over accession you could definitely win on turn 2.
Btw, please dont ask for toxic cards like jitte to get unbanned. They are miserable and dont give anything positive. Ask for unbans that would allow new decks into the meta.
To be clear we tolerate trolling, flaming and spam in these threads because of knee jerk reactions to news, but we don't in that State of Modern thread, so do not simply just continue these talks over there. Post with thoughtfulness.