To port over what I said on the old thread, I'm OK with both of these bannings in terms of what they'll do to/for the format. However, this continues Wizards' trend from January 2016 of loosening their ban criteria. Git Probe does fuel some turn-3 (and even very rare turn-2) kills, but they didn't give any reasoning along the lines of "The format is too fast and here's why." Same with GGT; maybe Dredge is oppressive, but our (very sketchy) data says it's being beaten back.
IIRC, they haven't banned decks for reducing diversity without giving justification of it being a top deck. Which, again Dredge may be, but they didn't make the case. It sounds like both are more a matter of principle than a matter of numbers. Which, again, is fair. But it's going to shake some people's confidence in the format, and it's a different direction than they originally laid out.
I just want to add that wizards said dredge needed a ban because matchups were becoming too much of a battle of sideboards. When so many BGx, grixis and even dredge decks themselves were packing 4 leyline of the voids in the sideboard, these matchups become so much of a coin toss between the dredge player having an answer vs the grave hate. The reasoning was less about diversity.
Also, I want to point this out to everyone's decks that were effect: Alot of these linear decks are best when they are "bad". If dredge was 30% of the meta, people would all sideboard 4 leyline of the voids in their sideboard (maybe even more grave hate) and hate the deck out. If dredge were to replace their GGT with Golgari thug (dredge 4 instead of dredge 6), the deck would still function, but the deck nevertheless, would be slightly weaker. But on the other hand, if the dredge percentage is lower, people would play alot less grave hate.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I'm bias on troll, so I won't even attempt to make a defense for it, other than legacy uses the same exact grave hate we do and its doing fine against the stronger form of dredge.
Overall, bannings after bannings have worn on me. I've been with modern from the very beginning. And rather than create an environment you support your players with, they just kill decks rather than fix meta games, and refuse to reprint cards which leads to ever increasing prices.
Cool, if dredge is unplaybe now, I have "lost" around 200 dollars (not including the mana base) and need to use that mana base to build something like jund now, which will cost me an extra 1000 or so.
The big differences come down to decks could play grave hate in legacy and be able to protect it with force and daze turn 2. That's not exactly possible. It really comes down to the hate is the same, the ways to answer the hate are the same, but the ways to protect the hate aren't.
I'll leave it at this, since I have no desire to argue over dredge. Hopefully dredge will still be able to exist with Thug.
I'm bias on troll, so I won't even attempt to make a defense for it, other than legacy uses the same exact grave hate we do and its doing fine against the stronger form of dredge.
Overall, bannings after bannings have worn on me. I've been with modern from the very beginning. And rather than create an environment you support your players with, they just kill decks rather than fix meta games, and refuse to reprint cards which leads to ever increasing prices.
Cool, if dredge is unplaybe now, I have "lost" around 200 dollars (not including the mana base) and need to use that mana base to build something like jund now, which will cost me an extra 1000 or so.
but they are supporting players with these bans. they are slowing the game down so the game has more room to breathe. and removing a little sideboard lottery from the game, an aspect that many dislike.
Ok...i think i'm going to definitively sell out after this, i used to believe wizard will change its mind in regard to ban/unbans agenda (i.e. no bans, more unbans) but this announcement shows i have fooled myself.
if you play broken decks expect them to get hit if they fly too close to the sun.
GGT is not too surprising, they hate Dredge anyway. The deck can still hang out in tier 3 with the ghosts of old combo decks like Amulet.
They actually went ahead and banned Probe. Now these decks are going to have to look for a Probe replacement:
Infect
Suicide Zoo
UR Kiln Fiend
Grixis Delver (in fact, any color combo of Delver)
Storm (yeah, who still plays that LOL)
Jeskai Ascendancy (see Storm)
Thing/PA
Probe ban hit the first three decks the hardest. Seriously, the first page of results for Probe on mtgtop8 is nothing but Infect, Suicide Zoo and Kiln Fiend decks.
With Probe banned, it's harder to hit 5 cards for Become Immense, so you either switch to Groundswell or Might of Alara, or continue playing BI in the knowledge that you're going to have to make trades before it's live. I don't play Kiln Fiend, so I have no idea what they'd do.
I was building two decks that I thought had potential with AER cards (Chapin's Delve, and a red Belcher build with Renegade Map and Mox Opal). Now I can safely delete both of them. At least Super Vengevine is safe (for now).
UR and Suicide Zoo won't survive at all. And Infect will never be close to what it was.
2017 Modern is a lot of interactive decks with no one to interact with except each other, while they all get collectively murdered by Tron, RG Valakut and Bant Eldrazi.
Not to mention Storm is dead too.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
Well, at least now we know that the "SB game" is a valid reason for banning a card. They did use this reasoning the first time GGT was banned, but most of us probably weren't around to remember it.
I'll also note that they did not cite any good tournament finishes for either of the bans, unlike previous announcements. They're there if you bother to look (the latest GP had 3 Infect and 1 Dredge in the T8), but I'm a little uneasy over the relatively short, low-effort explanation for this B&R announcement compared to previous ones.
I think people have a seriously warped reality of expecting what can be unbanned. I don't see SFM or BBE ever seeing the light of day in Modern. Yet everyone in this forum was SO CONVINCED that such unbans were going to be coming.
We got some interesting meta shifts ahead of us. Personally I would have much rather seen Become Immense or Mutagenic Growth banned if they wanted to hit Infect/Zooicide/Suicide Bloo like this Delver decks have to suffer too. Being able to bluff again seems great though.
I guess Tron and Bant Eldrazi actually like these changes the most. Multiple bad MUs got hit with bans and with Dredge toned down (or even relegated to Tier 3) and Push being printed tons of players will try their luck on fair decks again.
To show my real discretion about this Wizards announcement; I don't in particular mind the bans, why I lack in faith for Wizards results directly in the lack of any unbans.
If you are banning Gitaxian Probe, why not allow for Preordain to enter as its replacement? You are just essentially forcing us to play with Sleight of Hand etc. They definitely did a number on Delve, Suicide Blue/Zoo strategies and Delver Strategies yet gave us nothing in return. Was Stoneforge Mystic and Bloodbraid Elf too much to ask?
Note the just-before-Modern-Masters banlist announcement schedule change. I sense shenanigans.
I'm not angry or even slightly miffed at no unbans, despite wanting to see a few. This plus Fatal Push is a huge shift to the format. The last thing they're going to want to do is also release new cards into an unknown meta. Just like they didn't take of Sword of the Meek and Ancestral Vision until a few months after they banned Splinter Twin and Summer Bloom.
I expected no unbans January 2016 and no unbans January 2017. I expect something big in March 2017.
You may very well be correct, but I don't sense the purpose perhaps as much as you do. If I was dealing on the Modern banned list committee, I wouldn't let consumer confidence drop over the course of 2.5 months for a spurt to try and hype a set 4 days before it's release.
Edit: Whoops. Missed that this was a modern thread.
Not too nitpick but this is the modern forums, so talk about the standard meta game doesn't really have a place here. I assume the standard forums have a thread similar.
Ok...i think i'm going to definitively sell out after this, i used to believe wizard will change its mind in regard to ban/unbans agenda (i.e. no bans, more unbans) but this announcement shows i have fooled myself.
This is exactly the same as last year. They ban something, then wait till the next B&R announcement to do unbans after some evaluation. So slow down there
buddy before selling out
Is this a confidence shaking ban though?? GGT is the best ban since Bloom, and Probe is nothing compared to the format shaking (to say nothing of confidence in the format) of the Twin ban.
To show my real discretion about this Wizards announcement; I don't in particular mind the bans, why I lack in faith for Wizards results directly in the lack of any unbans.
If you are banning Gitaxian Probe, why not allow for Preordain to enter as its replacement? You are just essentially forcing us to play with Sleight of Hand etc. They definitely did a number on Delve, Suicide Blue/Zoo strategies and Delver Strategies yet gave us nothing in return. Was Stoneforge Mystic and Bloodbraid Elf too much to ask?
Note the just-before-Modern-Masters banlist announcement schedule change. I sense shenanigans.
I'm not angry or even slightly miffed at no unbans, despite wanting to see a few. This plus Fatal Push is a huge shift to the format. The last thing they're going to want to do is also release new cards into an unknown meta. Just like they didn't take of Sword of the Meek and Ancestral Vision until a few months after they banned Splinter Twin and Summer Bloom.
I expected no unbans January 2016 and no unbans January 2017. I expect something big in March 2017.
You may very well be correct, but I don't sense the purpose perhaps as much as you do. If I was dealing on the Modern banned list committee, I wouldn't let consumer confidence drop over the course of 2.5 months for a spurt to try and hype a set 4 days before it's release.
Maybe, but that's what they did in 2016. Except it was 4 months instead of 2.5. I think they take a pretty long view on these things, especially given that time has kind of Vindicated them on the Twin/Bloom ban. At least somewhat.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I'm clearly bias about Troll, so I wont defend it. The only thing I will say is legacy deals with a much more powerful version of dredge with the same hate we have here, and does perfectly fine, and the data has shown that prepared modern decks do the same.
I will make a more important note here, that isn't even about this banning, but how wizards has handled modern for sometime now. I've been here since the beginning of modern, and I feel like someone beat down year after year. I want to defend my favorite format in magic, but I have a hard time doing it when wizards bans decks instead of fixing the meta (one might argue this is something akin to cutting off your hand when you break a finger.)
Now more people have to either enjoy losing all the time as their deck is still playable, but bad, or cash out their deck to retirement, salvage their mana base, and pay more money than they lost to make a different deck. Modern is where players seek to avoid rotation, not surgically extracted force deck changes.
The last time they unbanned things worth mentioning is 2012 when they unbanned valakut, 2014 (2 years between) when they unbanned nacatl admitting that ban was a mistake, 2015 (a year later) where they unbanned troll, which they banned again one year later in 2016 and unbanning a blue card worth mentioning, after killing a huge protion of blue decks.
When is this going to stop? When will they see people are already looking at a "new modern format" because they screwed up standard and modern so bad people are just looking for ways to play magic.
Updated the second post because honestly for the first time I can finally admit that I don't think I can defend modern anymore.
Gitaxian Probe—Gitaxian Probe increased the number of third-turn kills in a few ways, but particularly by giving perfect information (and a card) to decks that often have to make strategic decisions about going "all-in." This hurt the ability of reactive decks to effectively bluff or for the aggressive deck to miss-sequence their turn. Ultimately, the card did too much for too little cost.
Golgari Grave-Troll—Dredge, the mechanic and the deck, has a negative impact on Modern by pushing the format too far toward a battle of sideboards. With the printing of Cathartic Reunion and Prized Amalgam, the deck once again became unhealthy for the format. While those cards were discussed, the real offender always has been the dredge mechanic itself.
Finally, you might have noticed the date for the next Banned and Restricted announcement looks a little soon. And, in fact, it is. In that area, we have a slight, but important, change:
Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday.
We're making this change to give us, as well as the player community, greater flexibility in keeping organized play healthy and fun. We recognize that Pro Tour play, which is most directly informed by the announcement timeframe, represents a small fraction of Magic play. The play that is most affected by formats becoming imbalanced is the kind that happens between announcements—Friday Night Magic, Grand Prix, local tournaments, Magic Online events, Pro Tour Qualifying tournaments, or even just friends playing at home adhering to format rules.
So, in order to best serve the majority of Magic players, we're adding the mid-set window to ensure play experiences at those myriad events are the best they can be.
We do not expect this to lead to an increase in the number of cards banned or restricted (or unbanned or unrestricted), but the greater flexibility will allow us to address play issues more quickly.
We're making all of these changes because we believe they will help keep Standard healthy, diverse, and, most importantly, fun. Aether Revolt is packed with new, interesting cards that you'll want to try out in this refreshed, open environment. Get your first look at them this weekend at a Prerelease near you.
Is this a confidence shaking ban though?? GGT is the best ban since Bloom, and Probe is nothing compared to the format shaking (to say nothing of confidence in the format) of the Twin ban.
I definitely believe it is, to unban a card, then reban it is seriously scary. This is the first card they have ever done that with.
Imagine they unban Jace, and you didn't own four copies. How seriously do you take that? What the hell do you even do? You might as well play Legacy, or even worse, give up on Magic and play Hearthstone, because at least there, you can redeem the card for it's full value and exchange it for whatever you want if you don't like the changes.
Maybe, but that's what they did in 2016. Except it was 4 months instead of 2.5. I think they take a pretty long view on these things, especially given that time has kind of Vindicated them on the Twin/Bloom ban. At least somewhat.
Ok...i think i'm going to definitively sell out after this, i used to believe wizard will change its mind in regard to ban/unbans agenda (i.e. no bans, more unbans) but this announcement shows i have fooled myself.
if you play broken decks expect them to get hit if they fly too close to the sun.
Yeah. That's what you get if you play a fair deck that does not violate the T4 like Twin I guess! Well done Wizards for preventing any more people from buying into Modern!
although you are doomsaying now and are clearly salty about your ( clearly unfair)combo deck getting nerfed yet again( like bloom), in time you will realize these bans where good, and how modern is not going to "die" after these changes.
Is this a confidence shaking ban though?? GGT is the best ban since Bloom, and Probe is nothing compared to the format shaking (to say nothing of confidence in the format) of the Twin ban.
I definitely believe it is, to unban a card, then reban it is seriously scary. This is the first card they have ever done that with.
Imagine they unban Jace, and you didn't own four copies. How seriously do you take that? What the hell do you even do? You might as well play Legacy, or even worse, give up on Magic and play Hearthstone, because at least there, you can redeem the card for it's full value and exchange it for whatever you want if you don't like the changes.
if you like a smorc dominated game that is even less interactive than magic, then yea, go play hearthstone lol
I'm clearly bias about Troll, so I wont defend it. The only thing I will say is legacy deals with a much more powerful version of dredge with the same hate we have here, and does perfectly fine, and the data has shown that prepared modern decks do the same.
I will make a more important note here, that isn't even about this banning, but how wizards has handled modern for sometime now. I've been here since the beginning of modern, and I feel like someone beat down year after year. I want to defend my favorite format in magic, but I have a hard time doing it when wizards bans decks instead of fixing the meta (one might argue this is something akin to cutting off your hand when you break a finger.)
Now more people have to either enjoy losing all the time as their deck is still playable, but bad, or cash out their deck to retirement, salvage their mana base, and pay more money than they lost to make a different deck. Modern is where players seek to avoid rotation, not surgically extracted force deck changes.
The last time they unbanned things worth mentioning is 2012 when they unbanned valakut, 2014 (2 years between) when they unbanned nacatl admitting that ban was a mistake, 2015 (a year later) where they unbanned troll, which they banned again one year later in 2016 and unbanning a blue card worth mentioning, after killing a huge protion of blue decks.
When is this going to stop? When will they see people are already looking at a "new modern format" because they screwed up standard and modern so bad people are just looking for ways to play magic.
For this banning, cannot you replace the GGT with Golgari Thug (dredge 4 instead of dredge 6)?
It does *weaken* the deck, but on the other hand, there is going to be alot less grave hate in the meta. (And likely players will switch back to cards like Nihil Spellbomb or Relic instead of these insane gravehate cards like Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Ok...i think i'm going to definitively sell out after this, i used to believe wizard will change its mind in regard to ban/unbans agenda (i.e. no bans, more unbans) but this announcement shows i have fooled myself.
if you play broken decks expect them to get hit if they fly too close to the sun.
Yeah. That's what you get if you play a fair deck that does not violate the T4 like Twin I guess! Well done Wizards for preventing any more people from buying into Modern!
Let's not get into arguments about twin and fair/unfair here.
Is a GGT ban really going to drop dredge out of tier 1? Why can't the deck run a weaker version, ala Thug, and stay tier 1?
I'm a little shocked about the probe ban.
Sigh, the midrange fiesta won't last long before tron and eldrazi come along. I hope infect stays fairly powerful and can still easily beat those decks
With infect, death's shadow, and burn out of the picture, storm dying on the spot, and dredge dropping to tier 2 or 3 (maybe), doesn't this almost certainly bring Tron decks to tier 1 with very little weaknesses?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I just want to add that wizards said dredge needed a ban because matchups were becoming too much of a battle of sideboards. When so many BGx, grixis and even dredge decks themselves were packing 4 leyline of the voids in the sideboard, these matchups become so much of a coin toss between the dredge player having an answer vs the grave hate. The reasoning was less about diversity.
Also, I want to point this out to everyone's decks that were effect: Alot of these linear decks are best when they are "bad". If dredge was 30% of the meta, people would all sideboard 4 leyline of the voids in their sideboard (maybe even more grave hate) and hate the deck out. If dredge were to replace their GGT with Golgari thug (dredge 4 instead of dredge 6), the deck would still function, but the deck nevertheless, would be slightly weaker. But on the other hand, if the dredge percentage is lower, people would play alot less grave hate.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
The big differences come down to decks could play grave hate in legacy and be able to protect it with force and daze turn 2. That's not exactly possible. It really comes down to the hate is the same, the ways to answer the hate are the same, but the ways to protect the hate aren't.
I'll leave it at this, since I have no desire to argue over dredge. Hopefully dredge will still be able to exist with Thug.
but they are supporting players with these bans. they are slowing the game down so the game has more room to breathe. and removing a little sideboard lottery from the game, an aspect that many dislike.
decks playing:
none
if you play broken decks expect them to get hit if they fly too close to the sun.
decks playing:
none
Not to mention Storm is dead too.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
I'll also note that they did not cite any good tournament finishes for either of the bans, unlike previous announcements. They're there if you bother to look (the latest GP had 3 Infect and 1 Dredge in the T8), but I'm a little uneasy over the relatively short, low-effort explanation for this B&R announcement compared to previous ones.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I think people have a seriously warped reality of expecting what can be unbanned. I don't see SFM or BBE ever seeing the light of day in Modern. Yet everyone in this forum was SO CONVINCED that such unbans were going to be coming.
I guess Tron and Bant Eldrazi actually like these changes the most. Multiple bad MUs got hit with bans and with Dredge toned down (or even relegated to Tier 3) and Push being printed tons of players will try their luck on fair decks again.
You may very well be correct, but I don't sense the purpose perhaps as much as you do. If I was dealing on the Modern banned list committee, I wouldn't let consumer confidence drop over the course of 2.5 months for a spurt to try and hype a set 4 days before it's release.
Not too nitpick but this is the modern forums, so talk about the standard meta game doesn't really have a place here. I assume the standard forums have a thread similar.
This is exactly the same as last year. They ban something, then wait till the next B&R announcement to do unbans after some evaluation. So slow down there
buddy before selling out
Spirits
Maybe, but that's what they did in 2016. Except it was 4 months instead of 2.5. I think they take a pretty long view on these things, especially given that time has kind of Vindicated them on the Twin/Bloom ban. At least somewhat.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Updated the second post because honestly for the first time I can finally admit that I don't think I can defend modern anymore.
My Modern Decks:
BGWAbzan MidrangeWGB
UWRJeskai NahiriRWU
BRUGrixis ControlURB
I definitely believe it is, to unban a card, then reban it is seriously scary. This is the first card they have ever done that with.
Imagine they unban Jace, and you didn't own four copies. How seriously do you take that? What the hell do you even do? You might as well play Legacy, or even worse, give up on Magic and play Hearthstone, because at least there, you can redeem the card for it's full value and exchange it for whatever you want if you don't like the changes.
There's been no vindication of the Twin ban.
Spirits
although you are doomsaying now and are clearly salty about your ( clearly unfair)combo deck getting nerfed yet again( like bloom), in time you will realize these bans where good, and how modern is not going to "die" after these changes.
decks playing:
none
if you like a smorc dominated game that is even less interactive than magic, then yea, go play hearthstone lol
decks playing:
none
For this banning, cannot you replace the GGT with Golgari Thug (dredge 4 instead of dredge 6)?
It does *weaken* the deck, but on the other hand, there is going to be alot less grave hate in the meta. (And likely players will switch back to cards like Nihil Spellbomb or Relic instead of these insane gravehate cards like Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void)
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Let's not get into arguments about twin and fair/unfair here.
Probe was banned.
Insanity.....
I'm a little shocked about the probe ban.
Sigh, the midrange fiesta won't last long before tron and eldrazi come along. I hope infect stays fairly powerful and can still easily beat those decks
With infect, death's shadow, and burn out of the picture, storm dying on the spot, and dredge dropping to tier 2 or 3 (maybe), doesn't this almost certainly bring Tron decks to tier 1 with very little weaknesses?