Tron has been tier 1 in the past. It will just get countered once again back to tier 2.
Yup. Tron's popularity has always been cyclical, the deck is very meta-dependant. And it's unlikely it'll take over the format as long as Burn, Affinity and Infect exist to keep it in check.
they only start paying attention when such broken decks are tier 1, and are overly effecting the overall enjoyment of the game.
Players who loathe Tron and Lantern Control don't agree with you on your second point.
I think what upsets people is that nearly any other change would have been better than this. What do I know? I'm just a dumb Magic player, a sheep. I don't work at WotC. Here's 3 scenarios that I will think of in 2 minutes that would have been better than what they did.
Scenario 1. - no unbans or bans.
Scenario 2. - unban Preordain and Stoneforge Mystic.
Scenario 3. - unban Green Sun's Zenith and Chrome Mox.
Get it? Even a Dark Depths ******* unban would have been better IMO than this. And don't get me started on the bans in a format that I don't even like. Yet, I have friends who spent money on Standard cards...
they clearly stated why they hit probe and it is very good reasoning, format speed*
and secondly unbans could come, its not out of the question.
Why not just wait and see how Fatal Push effects things.
To just drop the 1-2 blow and eliminate ~5 decks from the format outright, just seems a little intense, and over reacting to me...
Print new cards to help the format. Don't just ban everything out of the format.
I'm not sure I understand the logic of this argument. If one mana removal spells were the answer infect would already see a much lower share of the meta. Path and Bolt are already the most played spells in Modern. Adding another one mana removal spells doesn't change much.
Gutting delver by printing push and banning probe? i feel like that is hyperbole.
Probe was a cantrip that helped delver decks cut lands and lower the effective number of cards in the library. Most if not all delver lists played 6-8 cantrips and ended up with 18-19 lands. That's why I'm more upset about, Push would enable more shells like esper midrange/control/whatever to effectively fight those decks. 4-6 Discard spells in combination with 8 mana removal spells would've been a huge boon to fight those fast decks.
Gutting delver by printing push and banning probe? i feel like that is hyperbole.
Probe was a cantrip that helped delver decks cut lands and lower the effective number of cards in the library. Most if not all delver lists played 6-8 cantrips and ended up with 18-19 lands. That's why I'm more upset about, Push would enable more shells like esper midrange/control/whatever to effectively fight those decks. 4-6 Discard spells in combination with 8 mana removal spells would've been a huge boon to fight those fast decks.
I'm obviously not saying probe was bad in delver i am saying that the deck is not "gutted" it does indeed benefit from push so it seems to be more likely that getting both better and worse should leave it close to where it is now +or- a small amount after the shake up.
Why do you guys list Affinity as keeping Tron is check? That matchup is incredibly 50/50
And you're right, Tron is a deck that rotates in and out of tier 1
Delver decks haven't been gutted, calm yourself down. Death Shadow/Kiln fiend is the one who took the biggest hits, infect took a hit, too, but the deck is still designed to pray on decks that lack interactivity
I think this banning opens up a very realistic conversation though,
you guys are aware that ancient stirrings is a serious contender for a ban in the next two years, right?
Why do you guys list Affinity as keeping Tron is check? That matchup is incredibly 50/50
And you're right, Tron is a deck that rotates in and out of tier 1
Delver decks haven't been gutted, calm yourself down. Death Shadow/Kiln fiend is the one who took the biggest hits, infect took a hit, too, but the deck is still designed to pray on decks that lack interactivity
I think this banning opens up a very realistic conversation though,
you guys are aware that ancient stirrings is a serious contender for a ban in the next two years, right?
very true. but then again as is most(arguably) broken top tier cards.
Golgari Grave-Troll isn't surprising... It just limits their ability to tinker with the graveyard for upcoming sets too much, while also hitting too many points on their checklist (e.g. deepest card 'filtering', late game consistency for a combo deck, hard to interact with game 1, best combo enabler for a successful deck).
Gitaxian Probe is even more unsurprising... But I really wish they didn't hit it. It was an integral part of my Paradox Engine brew. Thank god, the only card I invested so far in (Mox Opal) seems to profit from these changes. But I will postpone entering Modern yet again.
they only start paying attention when such broken decks are tier 1, and are overly effecting the overall enjoyment of the game.
Players who loathe Tron and Lantern Control don't agree with you on your second point.
I think what upsets people is that nearly any other change would have been better than this. What do I know? I'm just a dumb Magic player, a sheep. I don't work at WotC. Here's 3 scenarios that I will think of in 2 minutes that would have been better than what they did.
Scenario 1. - no unbans or bans.
Scenario 2. - unban Preordain and Stoneforge Mystic.
Scenario 3. - unban Green Sun's Zenith and Chrome Mox.
Get it? Even a Dark Depths ******* unban would have been better IMO than this. And don't get me started on the bans in a format that I don't even like. Yet, I have friends who spent money on Standard cards...
they clearly stated why they hit probe and it is very good reasoning, format speed*
and secondly unbans could come, its not out of the question.
You can give "solid" reasoning for anything once you've already done it and people have come to terms with that. Gitaxian Probe died for ]Become Immense's sins, just like Bloodbraid Elf did. I didn't wait until later to say it on BBE. I said it the day of that banning. I personally hate the card. It was the reason that 4-1 or 5-1 at my FNM made my DCI rating go down. But it was obvious to the Magic playing world that Deathrite Shaman was the offender. This one may not be AS obvious right now, but we'll see later. Luckily for WotC, Fatal Push will actually do more to push Infect out than a Probe ban would ever do. Infect will still be Tier 1 though. Trust me.
BG Tron will eat Burn alive. Infect is headed to the Fatal Push hell. Affinity...
How will BG Tron beat Burn? Collected Brutality? Burn could just adopt a less creature-centric deck list. I do agree with you on Fatal Push hell, although Infect will still be Tier 1 IMO.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Golgari Grave-Troll isn't surprising... It just limits their ability to tinker with the graveyard for upcoming sets too much, while also hitting too many points on their checklist (e.g. deepest card 'filtering', late game consistency for a combo deck, hard to interact with game 1, best combo enabler for a successful deck).
Gitaxian Probe is even more unsurprising... But I really wish they didn't hit it. It was an integral part of my Paradox Engine brew. Thank god, the only card I invested so far in (Mox Opal) seems to profit from these changes. But I will postpone entering Modern yet again.
What are you realistically waiting for? These things will always happen similarly to this.
Banlist thread in a nutshell: "WIZARDS IF YOU DON"T DO ANYTHING I'M SELLING ALL MY CARDS!!!!"
wizards does a thing: "THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER!!!! WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST DO NOTHING???!??!!!?"
keep in mind, the second group of people, are people who are salty that they had their broken deck nerfed.
Maybe we should dispatch with turning big swaths of players into a monolith to be dismissed? I don't play any of the decks that got those cards banned, but the announcement is still a disappointment. 2 Bannings just before the PT (again) after they decided to get rid of the Modern PT to calm down the bannings. Moreover, without any unbannings to blunt the disappointment one group of players is feeling, it just creates too many bad feels for people imo.
I can accept wotc taking action I don't like - always have. From my perspective, this just seems like a really weak choice.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I had a feeling GGT was gonna be the one getting banned from dredge. It was either GGT, stinkweed imp or mom hugs that was gonna be banned. with mom hugs being the least likely as it's part of red's colour pie.
I was hoping for a become immense ban but I understand gitaxian probe since it allows them to look at their opponent's hand, draw a card and fuel delve for a low cost of 2 life. which doesn't matter to them in most games.
Lantern hit on it, as far as format health goes. Control just isnt around enough, in enough ways.
Since this is the BANLIST thread instead of format health, well yes there are other ways they could have gone about things, but all the decks hit (even if Storm was an after thought which I believe it would be at this point) where the ones breaking the rules. Killed too fast, raced and played past eachother, and broke the game (Dredge) in a number of ways.
Now if Tron becomes top again, people will find other ways to kill Tron, I hate tron, its a joke of a deck honestly, but it serves a purpose. Same as Control, Burn, Jund, etc.
I'm REALLY hoping for that March Announcment, FREE.TWIN.
Golgari Grave-Troll isn't surprising... It just limits their ability to tinker with the graveyard for upcoming sets too much, while also hitting too many points on their checklist (e.g. deepest card 'filtering', late game consistency for a combo deck, hard to interact with game 1, best combo enabler for a successful deck).
Gitaxian Probe is even more unsurprising... But I really wish they didn't hit it. It was an integral part of my Paradox Engine brew. Thank god, the only card I invested so far in (Mox Opal) seems to profit from these changes. But I will postpone entering Modern yet again.
What are you realistically waiting for? These things will always happen similarly to this.
For a deck that I find fun to play (and presumably created myself, although this is too much to ask for in Modern). Currently there is no deck that interests me...
Golgari Grave-Troll isn't surprising... It just limits their ability to tinker with the graveyard for upcoming sets too much, while also hitting too many points on their checklist (e.g. deepest card 'filtering', late game consistency for a combo deck, hard to interact with game 1, best combo enabler for a successful deck).
Gitaxian Probe is even more unsurprising... But I really wish they didn't hit it. It was an integral part of my Paradox Engine brew. Thank god, the only card I invested so far in (Mox Opal) seems to profit from these changes. But I will postpone entering Modern yet again.
What are you realistically waiting for? These things will always happen similarly to this.
For a deck that I find fun to play (and presumably created myself, although this is too much to ask for in Modern). Currently there is no deck that interests me...
Sounds like you should be looking at other formats rather than ever hoping that this format will suit you. This isn't a terribly 'brew friendly' format anyway.
What are you realistically waiting for? These things will always happen similarly to this.
It's tough for Modern outsiders who hve 2 choices - 1) Play a Tier 1 deck until it is banned, then sell the cards back for 1/2 of what you paid or less ooor 2)Play a worse deck (could potentially be by not much) and give yourself a handicap from the beginning.
The number one thing I personally took from the ban list is this - Standard and Modern players need to stop playing Tier 1 decks. We need to be filthy casuals. And I mean that in the least offensive way.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Lantern hit on it, as far as format health goes. Control just isnt around enough, in enough ways.
Since this is the BANLIST thread instead of format health, well yes there are other ways they could have gone about things, but all the decks hit (even if Storm was an after thought which I believe it would be at this point) where the ones breaking the rules. Killed too fast, raced and played past eachother, and broke the game (Dredge) in a number of ways.
Now if Tron becomes top again, people will find other ways to kill Tron, I hate tron, its a joke of a deck honestly, but it serves a purpose. Same as Control, Burn, Jund, etc.
I'm REALLY hoping for that March Announcment, FREE.TWIN.
Why Twin? It's not a control deck. It's a combo deck with a few control pieces.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Banlist thread in a nutshell: "WIZARDS IF YOU DON"T DO ANYTHING I'M SELLING ALL MY CARDS!!!!"
wizards does a thing: "THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER!!!! WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST DO NOTHING???!??!!!?"
keep in mind, the second group of people, are people who are salty that they had their broken deck nerfed.
Maybe we should dispatch with turning big swaths of players into a monolith to be dismissed? I don't play any of the decks that got those cards banned, but the announcement is still a disappointment. 2 Bannings just before the PT (again) after they decided to get rid of the Modern PT to calm down the bannings. Moreover, without any unbannings to blunt the disappointment one group of players is feeling, it just creates too many bad feels for people imo.
I can accept wotc taking action I don't like - always have. From my perspective, this just seems like a really weak choice.
just because modern is not a part of the pro tour doesn't mean it doesnt need to be balanced.
What are you realistically waiting for? These things will always happen similarly to this.
It's tough for Modern outsiders who hve 2 choices - 1) Play a Tier 1 deck until it is banned, then sell the cards back for 1/2 of what you paid or less ooor 2)Play a worse deck (could potentially be by not much) and give yourself a handicap from the beginning.
The number one thing I personally took from the ban list is this - Standard and Modern players need to stop playing Tier 1 decks. We need to be filthy casuals. And I mean that in the least offensive way.
Why are you under the assumption that Infect is now dead? It will easily still be a top-tier contender. It was a deck before Become Immense, and this ban only takes away the free information aspect away from the deck.
Yup. Tron's popularity has always been cyclical, the deck is very meta-dependant. And it's unlikely it'll take over the format as long as Burn, Affinity and Infect exist to keep it in check.
they clearly stated why they hit probe and it is very good reasoning, format speed*
and secondly unbans could come, its not out of the question.
decks playing:
none
I'm not sure I understand the logic of this argument. If one mana removal spells were the answer infect would already see a much lower share of the meta. Path and Bolt are already the most played spells in Modern. Adding another one mana removal spells doesn't change much.
wizards does a thing: "THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER!!!! WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST DO NOTHING???!??!!!?"
Using Plague Stinger instead of Blighted Agent doesn't seem that bad of a compromise (and you get Phyrexian Crusader in the SB).
Probe was a cantrip that helped delver decks cut lands and lower the effective number of cards in the library. Most if not all delver lists played 6-8 cantrips and ended up with 18-19 lands. That's why I'm more upset about, Push would enable more shells like esper midrange/control/whatever to effectively fight those decks. 4-6 Discard spells in combination with 8 mana removal spells would've been a huge boon to fight those fast decks.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
keep in mind, the second group of people, are people who are salty that they had their broken deck nerfed.
decks playing:
none
I'm obviously not saying probe was bad in delver i am saying that the deck is not "gutted" it does indeed benefit from push so it seems to be more likely that getting both better and worse should leave it close to where it is now +or- a small amount after the shake up.
And you're right, Tron is a deck that rotates in and out of tier 1
Delver decks haven't been gutted, calm yourself down. Death Shadow/Kiln fiend is the one who took the biggest hits, infect took a hit, too, but the deck is still designed to pray on decks that lack interactivity
I think this banning opens up a very realistic conversation though,
you guys are aware that ancient stirrings is a serious contender for a ban in the next two years, right?
(i understand truly i do i was illustrating that it is impossible to please everyone.)
very true. but then again as is most(arguably) broken top tier cards.
decks playing:
none
Gitaxian Probe is even more unsurprising... But I really wish they didn't hit it. It was an integral part of my Paradox Engine brew. Thank god, the only card I invested so far in (Mox Opal) seems to profit from these changes. But I will postpone entering Modern yet again.
You can give "solid" reasoning for anything once you've already done it and people have come to terms with that. Gitaxian Probe died for ]Become Immense's sins, just like Bloodbraid Elf did. I didn't wait until later to say it on BBE. I said it the day of that banning. I personally hate the card. It was the reason that 4-1 or 5-1 at my FNM made my DCI rating go down. But it was obvious to the Magic playing world that Deathrite Shaman was the offender. This one may not be AS obvious right now, but we'll see later. Luckily for WotC, Fatal Push will actually do more to push Infect out than a Probe ban would ever do. Infect will still be Tier 1 though. Trust me. Personally, I specifically said that unbans need to occur. To me, bans are worse than doing nothing.
How will BG Tron beat Burn? Collected Brutality? Burn could just adopt a less creature-centric deck list. I do agree with you on Fatal Push hell, although Infect will still be Tier 1 IMO.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)What are you realistically waiting for? These things will always happen similarly to this.
I can accept wotc taking action I don't like - always have. From my perspective, this just seems like a really weak choice.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I was hoping for a become immense ban but I understand gitaxian probe since it allows them to look at their opponent's hand, draw a card and fuel delve for a low cost of 2 life. which doesn't matter to them in most games.
Since this is the BANLIST thread instead of format health, well yes there are other ways they could have gone about things, but all the decks hit (even if Storm was an after thought which I believe it would be at this point) where the ones breaking the rules. Killed too fast, raced and played past eachother, and broke the game (Dredge) in a number of ways.
Now if Tron becomes top again, people will find other ways to kill Tron, I hate tron, its a joke of a deck honestly, but it serves a purpose. Same as Control, Burn, Jund, etc.
I'm REALLY hoping for that March Announcment, FREE.TWIN.
Spirits
For a deck that I find fun to play (and presumably created myself, although this is too much to ask for in Modern). Currently there is no deck that interests me...
Sounds like you should be looking at other formats rather than ever hoping that this format will suit you. This isn't a terribly 'brew friendly' format anyway.
It's tough for Modern outsiders who hve 2 choices - 1) Play a Tier 1 deck until it is banned, then sell the cards back for 1/2 of what you paid or less ooor 2)Play a worse deck (could potentially be by not much) and give yourself a handicap from the beginning.
The number one thing I personally took from the ban list is this - Standard and Modern players need to stop playing Tier 1 decks. We need to be filthy casuals. And I mean that in the least offensive way.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Why Twin? It's not a control deck. It's a combo deck with a few control pieces.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
decks playing:
none
Why are you under the assumption that Infect is now dead? It will easily still be a top-tier contender. It was a deck before Become Immense, and this ban only takes away the free information aspect away from the deck.
Heaven forbid a deck has to play around answers.