Sorry, but UR Twin was basically a combo deck with counterspells, and an alt win-condition in the sideboard. If that is "blue" to you, then ok. Even UR storm can durdle its way to a win if it doesn't hit Grapeshot (at least the newer builds).
It seems no one can define "blue". Its basically a feeling. Playing blue for Tempo and X color for beatdown seems fun and how blue was intended to be played at least to me (as a support color). And if that is the case, then you have a good tier 2 deck called Grixis Delver (or Control Variants). Heck, even Merfolk! Twin was combo. At least the UR version.
So there you go. You have your blue deck. And if people play it more, I assure you itll end up Tier 1 at some point through sheer numbers (like many Tier 1 decks). No easy wins there, but its blue, and it has counter spells.
You play Grixis, dont you? So there is nothing to complain about.
"if people play it more, I assure you itll end up Tier 1 at some point through sheer numbers (like many Tier 1 decks). No easy wins there, but its blue, and it has counter spells."
"You play Grixis, dont you? So there is nothing to complain about."
I doubt it will get tier 1 in this current meta. and also, people who play grixis have plenty to complain about, especially if they are playing the control version. why? because control simply isnt good right now.
Good enough for Tier 2 it seems. And the lines between tier 1 and 2 blur, often.
Sorry, but UR Twin was basically a combo deck with counterspells, and an alt win-condition in the sideboard. If that is "blue" to you, then ok. Even UR storm can durdle its way to a win if it doesn't hit Grapeshot (at least the newer builds).
It seems no one can define "blue". Its basically a feeling. Playing blue for Tempo and X color for beatdown seems fun and how blue was intended to be played at least to me (as a support color). And if that is the case, then you have a good tier 2 deck called Grixis Delver (or Control Variants). Heck, even Merfolk! Twin was combo. At least the UR version.
So there you go. You have your blue deck. And if people play it more, I assure you itll end up Tier 1 at some point through sheer numbers (like many Tier 1 decks). No easy wins there, but its blue, and it has counter spells.
You play Grixis, dont you? So there is nothing to complain about.
"if people play it more, I assure you itll end up Tier 1 at some point through sheer numbers (like many Tier 1 decks). No easy wins there, but its blue, and it has counter spells."
"You play Grixis, dont you? So there is nothing to complain about."
I doubt it will get tier 1 in this current meta. and also, people who play grixis have plenty to complain about, especially if they are playing the control version. why? because control simply isnt good right now.
Good enough for Tier 2 it seems. And the lines between tier 1 and 2 blur, often.
still tier 1 and 2 are different, as well as their power levels (most of the time)
Finishing up some numbers on conversion rates and performance, using Day 2 to T8 data and Round 0 to T8 data from 8 different tournaments spanning 604 decks. Here were the top 10 most-played decks in the Day 2/Round 0 pool:
Burn
Abzan
Gx Tron
Death's Shadow Jund
Affinity
Titan Valakut
Bant Eldrazi
Grixis Control
Merfolk
Abzan Company
Not many surprises here. It's basically the MN Tier 1 list with some Tier 2 standouts. Next, here were the top 10 highest performing decks based on their weighted conversion rates from the Day 2/Round 0 pool to the T8. This weighting tries to account for small Ns:
Death's Shadow Jund
Abzan
Ad Nauseam
Titan Valakut
Affinity
Bant Spirits
Merfolk
Eldrazi Tron
Bant Eldrazi
RG Ponza
Here we see many Tier 1 lists but not all, and a mix of Tier 2 and Tier 3 options. If you're interested in high-performers, these are the decks for you. They overrepresented their Day 2/Round 0 share in the T8, suggesting strong conversion rates and high performance levels. Some aren't surprising, like DSJ, Bant Eldrazi, and Affinity. Others are more interesting, like Bant Spirits and RG Ponza.
Finally, here were the decks that had the worst performance relative to their Day 2/Round 0 share. These are the "biggest loser" decks which are overrepresented in their tiering relative to their performance level (or, vice versa, underrepresented in their T8 share relative to their Day 2/Round 0 numbers):
Burn
Gx Tron
Jund
Grixis Control
Infect
Revolt Zoo
Griselbrand
Elves
Dredge
Bogles
Again, a mix of lists throughout different tiers. Some aren't surprising; people have been saying Burn isn't good for a while, and this reinforces that conclusion. Gx Tron is also poorly positioned due to a rough DSJ matchup and other factors. Similarly, Grixis Control makes the list, confirming what I and others have been saying for a while: the deck is overrated but doesn't have the performance to back up its tiering. Also, RIP poor traditional Jund!
Conclusion: play lists in the second category. Avoid lists in the third.
Im not being snarky. Sorry if you perceive it that way.
A shared sentiment here. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but the exaggerations and misrepresentations of Twin are often frustrating to read over and over here. Honestly, I think Temur Delver is pretty sweet and I just don't have Goyfs or green manabase to play it personally, and would probably build BGx if I did have them. Apologies for over simplifying, but saying Twin is just a combo deck with counters is also oversimplifying what the deck was and how it operated.
Im not being snarky. Sorry if you perceive it that way.
A shared sentiment here. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but the exaggerations and misrepresentations of Twin are often frustrating to read over and over here. Honestly, I think Temur Delver is pretty sweet and I just don't have Goyfs or green manabase to play it personally, and would probably build BGx if I did have them. Apologies for over simplifying, but saying Twin is just a combo deck with counters is also oversimplifying what the deck was and how it operated.
Fair.
On the other discussion here: Counterspell would definitely be helpful to blue in Modern. I dont know if it would push blue into an acceptable power-level for some of us. But it would also help combo. I dont think we can get away from helping any combo that use blue.
I think the 'control problem' really just comes down to not having a good win condition.
Just a couple of hours ago I played a really long match vs grixis with bant. In game 2, he was able to counter and remove almost everything I played. I managed to resolve a CoCo but completely whiffed. Throughout this game he resolved and cast 2 Ancestral Vision, but not once did he put anything out on the board to actually pressure my life total. I won that game eventually with a couple of elemental tokens and a courser of kruphix with 2 cards in hand against 7.
The 1st AV came off suspend on his turn 7, the 2nd one came off suspend on turn 12. Just to illustrate how long that game was and how he could have easily won if he just had something decent to put on the pressure. The removal lined up well, the counters lined up well, but he ran out eventually. I won the game around turn 18 or so.
I'd like to see a blue creature that's something like this that can help the control deck turn the corner and transition more smoothly from simply controlling the board to winning the game:
3UU
Flying, Hexproof
When this creature comes into play, you may untap up to 2 or 3 islands.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I think the 'control problem' really just comes down to not having a good win condition.
Just a couple of hours ago I played a really long match vs grixis with bant. In game 2, he was able to counter and remove almost everything I played. I managed to resolve a CoCo but completely whiffed. Throughout this game he resolved and cast 2 Ancestral Vision, but not once did he put anything out on the board to actually pressure my life total. I won that game eventually with a couple of elemental tokens and a courser of kruphix with 2 cards in hand against 7.
The 1st AV came off suspend on his turn 7, the 2nd one came off suspend on turn 12. Just to illustrate how long that game was and how he could have easily won if he just had something decent to put on the pressure. The removal lined up well, the counters lined up well, but he ran out eventually. I won the game around turn 18 or so.
I'd like to see a blue creature that's something like this that can help the control deck turn the corner and transition more smoothly from simply controlling the board to winning the game:
3UU
Flying, Hexproof
When this creature comes into play, you may untap up to 2 or 3 islands.
Interesting results which are very much appreciated. Anticipating the related article for more context and description of the method, but that seems mostly consistent with observations. I have play burn, and I recognize that it is a strong deck that has a high skill floor and low skill ceiling. It makes a lot of sense to me that burn can show up and do well day 1, but falls apart against both better players and tier 1 decks more generally. That's why I stopped playing the deck.
Surprised by numbers 2-5 on the 3rd list, I didn't realize those were performing quite that bad. Although, if you consider DS jund to just be the next evolution in Jund, it makes sense that DS jund top of list 2 would lead to Jund being on list 3. Grixis showing up as one of the most played while also being one of the worse converting implies that it is in fact underpowered.
Seeing Bant spirits on that second list makes me want to pick up the caverns...
edit: If you are writing an article, an afterword regarding the implications of the rankings here with respect to tier ranking. Does this metric (the second list) better indicate the strength of deck than the tiering system?
edit: If you are writing an article, an afterword regarding the implications of the rankings here with respect to tier ranking. Does this metric (the second list) better indicate the strength of deck than the tiering system?
You need both. Prevalence-based tierings help you build sideboards and determine what decks you need to beat. Even if Bant Spirits is secretly good, you shouldn't prepare your sideboard for it. Performance-based tierings help you decide what decks are good and bad at any given time. Even if Burn sees lots of play, it turns out it's pretty bad.
The former is easier to create and we can basically calculate them at any time. The latter is much harder and requires Day 2 and Round 0 data, which isn't consistently published and requires lots of scouring.
Good enough for Tier 2 it seems. And the lines between tier 1 and 2 blur, often.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
still tier 1 and 2 are different, as well as their power levels (most of the time)
decks playing:
none
Counterspell most likely. Also, snapcaster mage (ignoring "fair combo" obviously).
- Burn
- Abzan
- Gx Tron
- Death's Shadow Jund
- Affinity
- Titan Valakut
- Bant Eldrazi
- Grixis Control
- Merfolk
- Abzan Company
Not many surprises here. It's basically the MN Tier 1 list with some Tier 2 standouts. Next, here were the top 10 highest performing decks based on their weighted conversion rates from the Day 2/Round 0 pool to the T8. This weighting tries to account for small Ns:- Death's Shadow Jund
- Abzan
- Ad Nauseam
- Titan Valakut
- Affinity
- Bant Spirits
- Merfolk
- Eldrazi Tron
- Bant Eldrazi
- RG Ponza
Here we see many Tier 1 lists but not all, and a mix of Tier 2 and Tier 3 options. If you're interested in high-performers, these are the decks for you. They overrepresented their Day 2/Round 0 share in the T8, suggesting strong conversion rates and high performance levels. Some aren't surprising, like DSJ, Bant Eldrazi, and Affinity. Others are more interesting, like Bant Spirits and RG Ponza.Finally, here were the decks that had the worst performance relative to their Day 2/Round 0 share. These are the "biggest loser" decks which are overrepresented in their tiering relative to their performance level (or, vice versa, underrepresented in their T8 share relative to their Day 2/Round 0 numbers):
- Burn
- Gx Tron
- Jund
- Grixis Control
- Infect
- Revolt Zoo
- Griselbrand
- Elves
- Dredge
- Bogles
Again, a mix of lists throughout different tiers. Some aren't surprising; people have been saying Burn isn't good for a while, and this reinforces that conclusion. Gx Tron is also poorly positioned due to a rough DSJ matchup and other factors. Similarly, Grixis Control makes the list, confirming what I and others have been saying for a while: the deck is overrated but doesn't have the performance to back up its tiering. Also, RIP poor traditional Jund!Conclusion: play lists in the second category. Avoid lists in the third.
Only counterspell imo. Assuming you meant 'potentially modern legal' vs just legacy cards or something.
Spirits
A shared sentiment here. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but the exaggerations and misrepresentations of Twin are often frustrating to read over and over here. Honestly, I think Temur Delver is pretty sweet and I just don't have Goyfs or green manabase to play it personally, and would probably build BGx if I did have them. Apologies for over simplifying, but saying Twin is just a combo deck with counters is also oversimplifying what the deck was and how it operated.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I still don't think counterspell would even be good in modern.
If Cryptic Command has been good enough to see tier one play in modern's past, counterspell would most certainly see play, and be a good card.
Fair.
On the other discussion here: Counterspell would definitely be helpful to blue in Modern. I dont know if it would push blue into an acceptable power-level for some of us. But it would also help combo. I dont think we can get away from helping any combo that use blue.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Just a couple of hours ago I played a really long match vs grixis with bant. In game 2, he was able to counter and remove almost everything I played. I managed to resolve a CoCo but completely whiffed. Throughout this game he resolved and cast 2 Ancestral Vision, but not once did he put anything out on the board to actually pressure my life total. I won that game eventually with a couple of elemental tokens and a courser of kruphix with 2 cards in hand against 7.
The 1st AV came off suspend on his turn 7, the 2nd one came off suspend on turn 12. Just to illustrate how long that game was and how he could have easily won if he just had something decent to put on the pressure. The removal lined up well, the counters lined up well, but he ran out eventually. I won the game around turn 18 or so.
I'd like to see a blue creature that's something like this that can help the control deck turn the corner and transition more smoothly from simply controlling the board to winning the game:
3UU
Flying, Hexproof
When this creature comes into play, you may untap up to 2 or 3 islands.
3/4
So, you suggest an (effective) 3 mana Morphling? It also sounds a lot like dragonlord ojutai
Between Tasigur & Co., there should be win conditions that fit into control shells. Preordain would help find them in a timely manner, perhaps.
Surprised by numbers 2-5 on the 3rd list, I didn't realize those were performing quite that bad. Although, if you consider DS jund to just be the next evolution in Jund, it makes sense that DS jund top of list 2 would lead to Jund being on list 3. Grixis showing up as one of the most played while also being one of the worse converting implies that it is in fact underpowered.
Seeing Bant spirits on that second list makes me want to pick up the caverns...
edit: If you are writing an article, an afterword regarding the implications of the rankings here with respect to tier ranking. Does this metric (the second list) better indicate the strength of deck than the tiering system?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
You need both. Prevalence-based tierings help you build sideboards and determine what decks you need to beat. Even if Bant Spirits is secretly good, you shouldn't prepare your sideboard for it. Performance-based tierings help you decide what decks are good and bad at any given time. Even if Burn sees lots of play, it turns out it's pretty bad.
The former is easier to create and we can basically calculate them at any time. The latter is much harder and requires Day 2 and Round 0 data, which isn't consistently published and requires lots of scouring.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/773038-state-of-modern-thread-bans-format-health-reprints