Is it too soon to revisit Deathrite Shaman? Efficient answers like Fatal Push are a thing now.
I honestly don't see why it has to be banned, it's stupid good but not broken. It's not like it would save Jund from Tron (as a Tron player I admit to wanting to see as much Jund as possible) but I think it will be on the list for a long time, if it ever comes off. BBE would come off first, probably Punishing Fire, it's not that the card would necessarily turn Jund into a monster, just that the things that would have to happen for Wizards to even look at it would be crazy. If they print another Storm and would have to ban half a set I could see it, but it is likely there until the format naturally gets much stronger, and that is if other decks get toys and BGX just doesn't
Remember, we had Bolt and Path last time
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Maybe putting it specifically in the modern sub forum was a mistake. I don't know the OP's intentions, but this seems like a more genetic interpretation (that I would personally agree with) than a topic specific to the modern meta game.
The problem here is that i feel sometimes people are compelled to post new threads to disgust topics that belong in the state of modern thread, only because the current page discussion of that thread has nothing to do with their topic. If there's nothing wrong with them detailing the current page's topic with something of this nature, then it should provably just be moved. Just my 2 cents.
My 2 cents on this topic specifically - they seriously underestimated the impact on modern, but but they banned ugin which most believed resolved the problem. Are they still powerful? Yes. Are they dominating the meta? Hardly
I agree with shmanka. Modern is all of standards mistakes from throughout the years rolled into one format. And with all these eldrazi running around that aren't able to be countered in one fashion or another it just amazes me that something as simple as paying 2 life to draw a card is banned. Yes the probe gives you insight into what your opponent is working with on t1 but it's still 2 life or 1 mana to draw a card. Another one that is kinda confusing as to why it's banned but not these ridiculous aliens we all know as eldrazi is deathrite shaman. Yes for 1 mana he's insanely good but you can only use his activated abilities once per turn. Outside of that he's a 2/1 for 1. There's too many cards out there that are banned in modern that I feel should be unbanned to make room for some of these eldrazi running around. Especially now that they're using the colorless mana symbol on things that add colorless mana instead of the old school number in a circle. It just makes casting them that much easier. WotC definitely needs to reconsider the whole colorless mana thing as well as some of these eldrazi that are a thing of which none are banned in the format.
Is it too soon to revisit Deathrite Shaman? Efficient answers like Fatal Push are a thing now.
Deathrite is only foreseeable in a near-apocalyptic scenario. It's one of the most absurdly overpowered creatures the format has ever seen, and on top of that there's no real reason to unban it. Having one more card that can answer it at parity doesn't really change anything.
Agreed. I am the owner of many copies of Deathrite Shaman, so I would benefit greatly from an unban. But the card is too good for Modern. If you look at Bob Huang's new Legacy article, he even presents an (somewhat odd, but some could agree) argument for banning it in Legacy. As a Legacy player, there is really nothing more I would like to do than to play a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman and there is nothing I like to see less than a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman on my opponent's side.
Some decks may not mind much, but many other decks simply can't recover from a turn 2 Liliana of the Veil and Deathrite Shaman being pretty close to "strictly better" than Noble Hierarch in GBx decks makes turn 2 Lily much more of a reality. As it stands now with only Abzan able to occasionally power out a turn 2 Liliana of the Veil, but giving up a poor late game draw of Noble Hierarch (which Deathrite Shaman is only a poor top deck until it is not summoning sick, then it is ridiculous).
Personally, I would love to see Modern be powerful enough to accept Deathrite Shaman, but in my opinion, there are around 8 cards that should be unbanned first (if at all to get to that point).
P.S. - I get a bit upset when players call Deathrite Shaman a "1 mana planeswalker." I feel like it is better than that since it can't be attacked; only killed through creature removal.
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At first, I was surprised by how strong Reality Smasher and TKS... but after Eye of Ugin got banned.. I'm fine with them now. Bant Eldrazi is just ano ther strong deck that's tier 1.. not tier 0. There are scarier decks here in my meta like Dredge and Abzan with infinite life combo.
The only reason DRS is banned is because it is essentially never a good trade. It dies to everything in the format (all tier 1 removal). And its solid late game. The only real difference between it and DS is DS can't be played turn one (well, under normal circumstances.) I really hate ubiquity bans though. Primarily because certain cards seem immune to it(bolt, path,ts etc) and being a good, fair card, should not be a bannable offense.(To me, any creature that dies to virtually every other creature in combat and to every tier 1 removal spell and doesn't say 'I win the game' should be a fair creature. In that regard, both Goyf and DS are more unfair). I mean DRS doesn't even have haste, so it sits there for an entire turn. I mean I get why it's banned but I really think it sets a poor precedent. (PS, you could make an argument that Noble Hierarch is a better card and legal. All of DRS's abilities are game state dependent. NH just does its own thing and its good early and late game (not as good as DRS late game, but turns 1-3 NH is likely better. Which by the way are considered the most important turns in Modern.)
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
In a fetchland format like Modern Deathrite Shaman is in my opinion most likely more powerful than both Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Not to mention that he has already been in the format once and was too powerful, it makes much more sense to unban cards that didn't get a chance yet like Jace or SFM.
I was looking at the colorless Eldrazi Tron list that is nearing 5% of the meta and it struck me how many cards from the same set it runs. Enabled by the super easy ramp provided by Eldrazi Temple and to a lesser extent the Tron lands, it churns out things other Tron decks had to be quite tuned to produce. RG Tron devotes a lot of slots to enabling its combo, whereas U Tron has been refined for a long time.
Don't you guys think it was a design mistake (and sort of boring, from a deckbuilding perspective) to print so many synergistic and stupidly powerful cards and enable them to run on what is in some ways a perfect manabase?
So many 2 for 1 effects stuck on large bodies, cast for pennies. I mean, just look at that curve. Every card is a slap to the face and they just get more ridiculous in their abilities each turn. Endbringer can barely fit all the shenanigans on the card itself, lol.
Just to be clear, I'm not complaining that its unbeatable, but I do think its powercreep and not of the interesting variety. Its practically a green beatdown deck with a number of overpowering effects tacked on every single creature... just because?
This is ultimately just a "State of Modern" issue, so it's merged with the main thread.
If you guys can't understand why DRS isn't a broken and oppressive card then I really don't know what to say--except maybe some people lack fundamentally understanding this format.
We're literally talking about Eye of Ugin Eldrazi levels of oppression when DRS was a card.
Just no, stop it, you guys really come off not understanding the card or the format. Screw having scooze, now Jund players could eat the GY immediately, pump out LOTV's on turn 2, ping your life right off the bat, gain me 2 life, with 4 copies in the main deck, or play my Huntmaster/Kalitas on turn 3?
Yes, my own testing is not sufficient, obviously. I think revolt zoo will see a pick up. At least the version I tested against.
I mean, Revolt Zoo already saw a pickup. After the change from the regular Bushwhacker to Revolt Bushwhacker version, the deck picked up from .5% to 1.5% of the metagame, so it got bumped from non-tiered to T2. I'm not sure how much further can an all-in linear deck without a backup plan progress in a meta with so much interaction.
Yes, my own testing is not sufficient, obviously. I think revolt zoo will see a pick up. At least the version I tested against.
I mean, Revolt Zoo already saw a pickup. After the change from the regular Bushwhacker to Revolt Bushwhacker version, the deck picked up from .5% to 1.5% of the metagame, so it got bumped from non-tiered to T2. I'm not sure how much further can an all-in linear deck without a backup plan progress in a meta with so much interaction.
Sure. It just felt overwhelming, even during turn 2 or 3. It is hyper linear, but look at the decks it is fighting against. What sort of back-up plan would it need apart from smashing face and packing some removal?
I doubt many people actually expect it, we are just talking about the impact. It's powerful, but meta share isn't something that I worry too much about, just conversion rates. If everyone starts playing DRS Jund, I remember the DRS and BBE days, it doesn't really improve the bad matchups that much. Tron is still laughing, Eldrazi still wouldn't mind, it's not like Jund suddenly gets new free wins
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I doubt many people actually expect it, we are just talking about the impact. It's powerful, but meta share isn't something that I worry too much about, just conversion rates. If everyone starts playing DRS Jund, I remember the DRS and BBE days, it doesn't really improve the bad matchups that much. Tron is still laughing, Eldrazi still wouldn't mind, it's not like Jund suddenly gets new free wins
The issue with DRS is that it is so damn versatile. It forces the meta to revolve around it, due to the nature of what it brings to the table. Its a must answer turn 1 threat, as it powers out turn 3 cards early, like birds or noble heirarch are. Though it is also graveyard hate, life gain, and can close games out, all on its own. Its never a bad card, early game, mid game and late game. That isn't something birds or heirarch can say, and that is the trade off with them. They are amazing early game, but really, really bad late game. DRS has none of that. The fact that it slots in turn 1, and is a major impact at all stages, and to all kinds of strategies,remember your graveyard deck must be that much better to beat a resolved DRS past turn 1, all at next to 0 cost to the deck it's being played in, and the same thing goes for aggro decks. Kill it on sight, or as the deck with DRS goes about killing your things, They will recoup the damage you've done, until its out of range, and you can't win.
DRS needs to stay banned. It is there for good reason.
Yeah, it's just a huge lack of understanding to anyone to those who claim that its impact wouldn't be a huge deal. DRS is a mana dork that would demand to be bolted/killed on sight against most decks, that means decks now have to waste a push/path on that instead of Goyf because it's such a scary card. That is an issue. It is never a bad topdeck, jund can hedge some lands for a mana dork that also kills you or gains it life...
Let's just drop the whole conversation, it's even worse than people suggesting Dig Through Time.
Not sure if this is the right thread, but since the changes to gpt's and new nationals and everything being standard, what will be the most competitive Modern events in NSW/Australia? Only thing I can see will be a GP each year, but is that guaranteed?
If you guys can't understand why DRS isn't a broken and oppressive card then I really don't know what to say--except maybe some people lack fundamentally understanding this format.
We're literally talking about Eye of Ugin Eldrazi levels of oppression when DRS was a card.
Deathrite Shaman was not even close to that level.
I'm not arguing for an unban, but to say it was even close to the same level, let alone "literally" at the same level, is completely absurd.
In my opinion, Eldrazi with Eye was a stronger deck than DRS Jund was. It was probably the best deck we will ever see in Modern. However, DRS is still too strong for this format. He's even busted in Legacy. I rather have JTMS or/and SFM unbanned, which supports Uxx/UWx strategies.
For some reason, what bugs me the most about DRS' design was that they even gave it two toughness. As if it's just to prove that they really pushed it every little way they could.
For some reason, what bugs me the most about DRS' design was that they even gave it two toughness. As if it's just to prove that they really pushed it every little way they could.
In fairness, 1/2 was probably necessary to have it see the small amount of play it actually saw in Standard.
Although if it had been a 1/1, it might not have gotten banned.
DRS went into two of the 4 top decks at the time, at the two it went into had over 10% meta shares. (The two decks being Pod and Jund, with Jund pushing 20%). Its not close to Eldrazi Winter, but it was well and truly the best card in the format at its time. DRS doesn't do anything extremely well. but when you realize the card actually reads:
Birds of Paradise + Scavenging Ooze + Healing Salve ( or 2/3rds of it) + shock (only for your opponent),(if anyone has better effects to outline this, please share) suddenly 1 mana for 4 cards seems really good. Its a charm card, but repeatable, and actually has 4 modes, instead of 2-3, all of which are really good for 1 mana. Along with just being able to use them to hose entire archetypes, all while neatly accelerating your gameplan.
basically it does way too much, is never a bad card, has any disadvantage, and is the jack of all trades.
Why on earth are we discussing DRS? It doesn't address any of Modern's few remaining challenges and directly slots into numerous top-tier decks. It was also demonstrably broken during a period of Modern's history and those conditions haven't changed much since then (Jund was Tier 1 for the entirety of 2016; DRS decks would happily use DRS). It's such a silly nonstarter. When these kinds of cards are reintroduced to the dialogue, I know Modern is in a pretty good place.
Since another poster was talking about this, I looked it up. Just some food for though
Data: all Modern GP so far (40)
Avg Day1 to Day2: 17.1%, ranging from 10.3% (Richmond '14) to 31.8% (Bologna '16)
Avg Day2 to Top8: 4.2%, ranging from 1.1% (Detroit ´16) to 10.0% (Brisbane '13)
Avg Day1 to Top8: 0.6%, ranging from 0.2% (Richmond '14) to 1.7% (Brisbane '13)
This accounts for the difference in attendance of the GPs (more people, more difficult to Top8, higher % cutoff). Regardless of the TopX we want to work with, keep in mind that number is limited to the decks that get posted. Some Top32 breakdowns may not contain all the decks within the chosen Topx% for a given GP (mostly big ones).
I think the best approach would be record-based. Needless to say, we also ignore 9th-12th of most GPs despite having the same record as 7th-8th. But there are some recent examples: Dylan Boykowich (Bant Eldrazi) and Casey Pordes (Abzan Midrange) had 12-2-1 and tiebreakers to Top8 the smaller GP (Brisbane) but didn't make it at Vancouver. The other way around, James Larsen-Scott (Abzan Midrange) Top8'd Brisbane, while three other players didn't make it at Vancouver: Michael Penner (8Rack), Drew Christensen (Naya Burn) and Matt Severa (Jund Shadow).
Another approach would be pooling the Top32s together and making a cutoff (be it record or prevalence based). Brisbane-Vancouver data gives us 2 top lists. Prevalence based: Colorless Eldrazi (9.4%), Jund Shadow (7.8%), Bant Eldrazi (7.8%), RG Scapeshift (6.3%), Abzan Midrange (6.3%), Dredge (4.7%) and UG Infect (4.7%). Record based: Abzan Company (13-1-1), Merfolk and W Taxes (13-2), Lantern (25-4-1), Burn (25-5-0), Affinity (25-3-2), Dredge (37-5-3) and Jund Shadow (61-11-3).
Disclaimer:I still believe GP Top8s is the most important datapoint, at least regarding diversity bans. Also, I highly value MTGO data as the best way to track the metagame changes in a consistent way (note: sample error is usually ~4%). Modern Nexus and other sites have a more holistic approach, which is great if that's what you want and I salute Jason's decission to open up MN's data scope (Brazil, magic-league, etc).
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I honestly don't see why it has to be banned, it's stupid good but not broken. It's not like it would save Jund from Tron (as a Tron player I admit to wanting to see as much Jund as possible) but I think it will be on the list for a long time, if it ever comes off. BBE would come off first, probably Punishing Fire, it's not that the card would necessarily turn Jund into a monster, just that the things that would have to happen for Wizards to even look at it would be crazy. If they print another Storm and would have to ban half a set I could see it, but it is likely there until the format naturally gets much stronger, and that is if other decks get toys and BGX just doesn't
Remember, we had Bolt and Path last time
The problem here is that i feel sometimes people are compelled to post new threads to disgust topics that belong in the state of modern thread, only because the current page discussion of that thread has nothing to do with their topic. If there's nothing wrong with them detailing the current page's topic with something of this nature, then it should provably just be moved. Just my 2 cents.
My 2 cents on this topic specifically - they seriously underestimated the impact on modern, but but they banned ugin which most believed resolved the problem. Are they still powerful? Yes. Are they dominating the meta? Hardly
Draft My Cube!
So yes, it's in a long list of mistakes.
Agreed. I am the owner of many copies of Deathrite Shaman, so I would benefit greatly from an unban. But the card is too good for Modern. If you look at Bob Huang's new Legacy article, he even presents an (somewhat odd, but some could agree) argument for banning it in Legacy. As a Legacy player, there is really nothing more I would like to do than to play a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman and there is nothing I like to see less than a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman on my opponent's side.
Some decks may not mind much, but many other decks simply can't recover from a turn 2 Liliana of the Veil and Deathrite Shaman being pretty close to "strictly better" than Noble Hierarch in GBx decks makes turn 2 Lily much more of a reality. As it stands now with only Abzan able to occasionally power out a turn 2 Liliana of the Veil, but giving up a poor late game draw of Noble Hierarch (which Deathrite Shaman is only a poor top deck until it is not summoning sick, then it is ridiculous).
Personally, I would love to see Modern be powerful enough to accept Deathrite Shaman, but in my opinion, there are around 8 cards that should be unbanned first (if at all to get to that point).
P.S. - I get a bit upset when players call Deathrite Shaman a "1 mana planeswalker." I feel like it is better than that since it can't be attacked; only killed through creature removal.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
This is ultimately just a "State of Modern" issue, so it's merged with the main thread.
We're literally talking about Eye of Ugin Eldrazi levels of oppression when DRS was a card.
Just no, stop it, you guys really come off not understanding the card or the format. Screw having scooze, now Jund players could eat the GY immediately, pump out LOTV's on turn 2, ping your life right off the bat, gain me 2 life, with 4 copies in the main deck, or play my Huntmaster/Kalitas on turn 3?
haha, ok, boys.
I mean, Revolt Zoo already saw a pickup. After the change from the regular Bushwhacker to Revolt Bushwhacker version, the deck picked up from .5% to 1.5% of the metagame, so it got bumped from non-tiered to T2. I'm not sure how much further can an all-in linear deck without a backup plan progress in a meta with so much interaction.
Sure. It just felt overwhelming, even during turn 2 or 3. It is hyper linear, but look at the decks it is fighting against. What sort of back-up plan would it need apart from smashing face and packing some removal?
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I doubt many people actually expect it, we are just talking about the impact. It's powerful, but meta share isn't something that I worry too much about, just conversion rates. If everyone starts playing DRS Jund, I remember the DRS and BBE days, it doesn't really improve the bad matchups that much. Tron is still laughing, Eldrazi still wouldn't mind, it's not like Jund suddenly gets new free wins
People said the same thing for GGT.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
DRS needs to stay banned. It is there for good reason.
Let's just drop the whole conversation, it's even worse than people suggesting Dig Through Time.
Not sure if this is the right thread, but since the changes to gpt's and new nationals and everything being standard, what will be the most competitive Modern events in NSW/Australia? Only thing I can see will be a GP each year, but is that guaranteed?
I'm not arguing for an unban, but to say it was even close to the same level, let alone "literally" at the same level, is completely absurd.
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In fairness, 1/2 was probably necessary to have it see the small amount of play it actually saw in Standard.
Although if it had been a 1/1, it might not have gotten banned.
Birds of Paradise + Scavenging Ooze + Healing Salve ( or 2/3rds of it) + shock (only for your opponent),(if anyone has better effects to outline this, please share) suddenly 1 mana for 4 cards seems really good. Its a charm card, but repeatable, and actually has 4 modes, instead of 2-3, all of which are really good for 1 mana. Along with just being able to use them to hose entire archetypes, all while neatly accelerating your gameplan.
basically it does way too much, is never a bad card, has any disadvantage, and is the jack of all trades.
Data: all Modern GP so far (40)
Avg Day1 to Day2: 17.1%, ranging from 10.3% (Richmond '14) to 31.8% (Bologna '16)
Avg Day2 to Top8: 4.2%, ranging from 1.1% (Detroit ´16) to 10.0% (Brisbane '13)
Avg Day1 to Top8: 0.6%, ranging from 0.2% (Richmond '14) to 1.7% (Brisbane '13)
This accounts for the difference in attendance of the GPs (more people, more difficult to Top8, higher % cutoff). Regardless of the TopX we want to work with, keep in mind that number is limited to the decks that get posted. Some Top32 breakdowns may not contain all the decks within the chosen Topx% for a given GP (mostly big ones).
I think the best approach would be record-based. Needless to say, we also ignore 9th-12th of most GPs despite having the same record as 7th-8th. But there are some recent examples: Dylan Boykowich (Bant Eldrazi) and Casey Pordes (Abzan Midrange) had 12-2-1 and tiebreakers to Top8 the smaller GP (Brisbane) but didn't make it at Vancouver. The other way around, James Larsen-Scott (Abzan Midrange) Top8'd Brisbane, while three other players didn't make it at Vancouver: Michael Penner (8Rack), Drew Christensen (Naya Burn) and Matt Severa (Jund Shadow).
Another approach would be pooling the Top32s together and making a cutoff (be it record or prevalence based). Brisbane-Vancouver data gives us 2 top lists. Prevalence based: Colorless Eldrazi (9.4%), Jund Shadow (7.8%), Bant Eldrazi (7.8%), RG Scapeshift (6.3%), Abzan Midrange (6.3%), Dredge (4.7%) and UG Infect (4.7%). Record based: Abzan Company (13-1-1), Merfolk and W Taxes (13-2), Lantern (25-4-1), Burn (25-5-0), Affinity (25-3-2), Dredge (37-5-3) and Jund Shadow (61-11-3).
Disclaimer:I still believe GP Top8s is the most important datapoint, at least regarding diversity bans. Also, I highly value MTGO data as the best way to track the metagame changes in a consistent way (note: sample error is usually ~4%). Modern Nexus and other sites have a more holistic approach, which is great if that's what you want and I salute Jason's decission to open up MN's data scope (Brazil, magic-league, etc).
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium