Yeah, that's a bit extreme. Many of the cards on the ban list aren't that obvious. And like I said, I've been wary of Stoneforge for years, having faced off against it in both Legacy and Standard. But as powerful as it is, I have to agree that the format could definitely survive its unbanning. It might not be the healthiest card, but it's also not the worst offender on the list.
Preordain would be nice, but I think we still have awhile before that card can come back under WOTC's terms. It would help control, sure, but most likely it would help out combo more. Being better at hitting land drops also means it's better at hitting combo pieces. And I think Serum Visions is still a perfectly fine cantrip. In some ways, I like it better.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Its weird to me that so many people here actually believe Stoneforge Mystic might be unbanned. It is such an obvious inclusion on the ban list.
That's basically the sentiment I always hear from people who played Standard when SFM was legal and remember how oppressive it was in that format. Modern is not Cawblade-era Standard. You can't judge cards on what they did or do in other formats, you have to analyze how they would be in the context of Modern. A lot of people, myself included, have actually tested SFM, and the common consensus is that she's completely fine in terms of power level for Modern. She would certainly be good, but I would say the odds are very low that she would even be the best thing to do in Modern.
So, if you think about it a little, she's actually such an obvious candidate for unbanning.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I think there's a lot to be gleaned from Aaron's text. Notable takeaways:
- Death's Shadow decks are safe unless the metagame shifts so that deck diversity plummets
- A U/W unban is likely in the next announcement or two if those colors continue to put up miserable results
- Wizards cares about Modern and is taking the community's cries for transparency seriously
This is actually such a great article! Thank you for this, I completely agree with everything!
Would it necessarily be a bad thing if almost all white decks started playing SFM? In fact isn't it kind of the point to give the less prevalent colora more power? Almosy all black decks play thoughtseize, almost all red decks play bolt
It'd become a problem if many decks started splashing for it, like treasure cruise started to see play in burn
I think there's a lot to be gleaned from Aaron's text. Notable takeaways:
- Death's Shadow decks are safe unless the metagame shifts so that deck diversity plummets
- A U/W unban is likely in the next announcement or two if those colors continue to put up miserable results
- Wizards cares about Modern and is taking the community's cries for transparency seriously
This is actually such a great article! Thank you for this, I completely agree with everything!
Agreed, it's very well written. JTMS is never coming off the banned list, but otherwise, this is a very insightful article.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
I think there's a lot to be gleaned from Aaron's text. Notable takeaways:
- Death's Shadow decks are safe unless the metagame shifts so that deck diversity plummets
- A U/W unban is likely in the next announcement or two if those colors continue to put up miserable results
- Wizards cares about Modern and is taking the community's cries for transparency seriously
This is actually such a great article! Thank you for this, I completely agree with everything!
I am here to tell you (@astonkutcher) that I 100% agree as well and it was one of the best reads I had this year. Spot on, everything covered in a great way!
I think there's a lot to be gleaned from Aaron's text. Notable takeaways:
- Death's Shadow decks are safe unless the metagame shifts so that deck diversity plummets
- A U/W unban is likely in the next announcement or two if those colors continue to put up miserable results
- Wizards cares about Modern and is taking the community's cries for transparency seriously
This is actually such a great article! Thank you for this, I completely agree with everything!
Thanks guys! Drop me a "like" if you found it helpful, I am literally only back in this thread to rack up points (who actually cares about the banlist lolol)
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Its weird to me that so many people here actually believe Stoneforge Mystic might be unbanned. It is such an obvious inclusion on the ban list.
Man, why didn't I think of this before? It is a pretty obvious inclusion now that I think about it a little. To anyone reading this: scrap what I said before and my article. There is no way SFM comes off.
It may surprise you to learn not everyone reads the articles you write within hours of them being posted.
Having read your article now, you did a good job fleshing out the points many people have been making in this thread.
If Deathshadow becomes any more dominant that it is, I believe the most likely (and best) thing Wizards could do for the format to help color diversity and tone down Deathshadow would be to ban Thoughtseize.
If Deathshadow becomes less dominant we'd have to see what the new metagame looks like.
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
Its weird to me that so many people here actually believe Stoneforge Mystic might be unbanned. It is such an obvious inclusion on the ban list.
Man, why didn't I think of this before? It is a pretty obvious inclusion now that I think about it a little. To anyone reading this: scrap what I said before and my article. There is no way SFM comes off.
It may surprise you to learn not everyone reads the articles you write within hours of them being posted.
Having read your article now, you did a good job fleshing out the points many people have been making in this thread.
If Deathshadow becomes any more dominant that it is, I believe the most likely (and best) thing Wizards could do for the format to help color diversity and tone down Deathshadow would be to ban Thoughtseize.
If Deathshadow becomes less dominant we'd have to see what the new metagame looks like.
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
I think he's referring more to that you dismissed Stoneforge Mystic without giving any reasoning. You can't really say "obvious" without giving us your reasoning why it's "obvious."
In the current world of Death's Shadows, decks that have gobs of mana, and quick Combo decks, Stoneforge Mystic looks somewhat harmless. Is it a good card? Most definitely and you'd be hard pressed to not play it if you have White in your deck. Would it be the best thing to do in Modern right now? Most certainly not. Stoneforge Mystic IS a dangerous card, but I think that it's fine to let in it and be White's best Modern card (obviously moreso in decks splashing White).
*Personally, I think it's okay for Stoneforge Mystic to come off. I didn't always think this way. In fact, I had planned to run the Stoneforge Mystic "package" in Bloom Titan and in Tron just to PROVE how busted the card was. But those times were different. We have to remember that the original banlist had Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Sword of the Meek, and Ancestral Vision all banned while stuff like Rite of Flame wasn't banned. Modern has been handled pretty good, but there are and have definitely been problems or conflicting situations. You can have an 8/8 creature for B, but Stoneforge is unacceptable. Huh?
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
It's so scary that people believe this. Banning generic answers might be one of the worst possible ways to address longstanding Modern problems. Too many linear matchups? Too much matchup diversity? Too many "sideboard wars"? Not enough fair decks? A Thoughtseize ban makes every single one of those problems worse. Thankfully, I'm fairly confident Wizards knows what a horrendous idea this is and how much it would hurt the format. It doesn't even make historical sense given the performance of TS for years relative to the performance of DS. I bet it's not even on the table in their next meeting.
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
There is one discard spell on the ban list: Mind Twist.
I'm curious to see how you feel that Thoughtseize matches up against Mental Misstep and Punishing Fire (the other answer cards that are on the banned list). I need some enlightenment here because I cannot see them being on the same power level whatsoever.
[[Edit: Cursed Scroll is also on the list. It's banned in Tempest Block. Technically you could consider at an "answer" card for the sake of the argument in the same vein as a card like Punishing Fire]]
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
It's so scary that people believe this. Banning generic answers might be one of the worst possible ways to address longstanding Modern problems. Too many linear matchups? Too much matchup diversity? Too many "sideboard wars"? Not enough fair decks? A Thoughtseize ban makes every single one of those problems worse. Thankfully, I'm fairly confident Wizards knows what a horrendous idea this is and how much it would hurt the format. It doesn't even make historical sense given the performance of TS for years relative to the performance of DS. I bet it's not even on the table in their next meeting.
The thing is, the reason this is even a discussion at all is because Wizards went out of their way to say that Bauble and Wraith are not on the radar. And so if something were hypothetically banned from Death's Shadow, what is it? Traverse only hits Jund variants, there's no real specific card in Grixis variants that make it super powerful, and the only real overlap besides Shadow itself are general spells like discard and K command. So if they needed to ban something from Death's Shadow, based on their own comments, it would have to be one of those general spells or Shadow itself. Given their recent string of nuking decks out of existence, I would not be surprised to see them swing the hammer at Shadow itself. But let's remember the only reason we're even having this conversation to begin with is because of WOTC's strange choices and awkward communication. Either they make completely vague statements that tell us nothing, or they leave ambiguous bread crumbs that seem only point to WORSE things. Between their R&D blunders and some of their very strange B&R choices over the past two years... they just look like a hot mess that nobody can predict. Maybe that's what they want? Regardless, it's hard to point the blame for this banmania on anyone but Wizards themselves.
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
It's so scary that people believe this. Banning generic answers might be one of the worst possible ways to address longstanding Modern problems. Too many linear matchups? Too much matchup diversity? Too many "sideboard wars"? Not enough fair decks? A Thoughtseize ban makes every single one of those problems worse. Thankfully, I'm fairly confident Wizards knows what a horrendous idea this is and how much it would hurt the format. It doesn't even make historical sense given the performance of TS for years relative to the performance of DS. I bet it's not even on the table in their next meeting.
To see what happens when a lack of general answers exists they simply have to look at Standard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
GP Singapore Coverage:What did you have for breakfast this morning?
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
There is one discard spell on the ban list: Mind Twist.
I'm curious to see how you feel that Thoughtseize matches up against Mental Misstep and Punishing Fire (the other answer cards that are on the banned list). I need some enlightenment here because I cannot see them being on the same power level whatsoever.
[[Edit: Cursed Scroll is also on the list. It's banned in Tempest Block. Technically you could consider at an "answer" card for the sake of the argument in the same vein as a card like Punishing Fire]]
It's certainly better than Punishing Fire, that card seems to be overrated by many, it's a slow grindy combo similar to Sword of the Meek that was too good a long time ago.
Not saying that Thoughtseize should be banned, but that Punishing Fire isn't as broken as some people think it is.
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
There is one discard spell on the ban list: Mind Twist.
I'm curious to see how you feel that Thoughtseize matches up against Mental Misstep and Punishing Fire (the other answer cards that are on the banned list). I need some enlightenment here because I cannot see them being on the same power level whatsoever.
[[Edit: Cursed Scroll is also on the list. It's banned in Tempest Block. Technically you could consider at an "answer" card for the sake of the argument in the same vein as a card like Punishing Fire]]
The answer is Thoughtseize is not an answer, it is resource destruction. It is preemptively used to remove the opponent's best card against you. Is Stone Rain a threat, an answer or something else? Unless the Stone Rain is used on a manland, it is something else.
You can play Thoughtseize as a preemptive answer, you can also play it to remove the opponent's answers, and to determine the contents of their hand. All for the low, low price of one mana of tempo loss and 2 life.
PS: I hope all this writing is not for nothing and that you accept that you were wrong on this. Just open your mind and see what I am writing, that's all I am asking.
I guess I'm just extra salty, especially with regards to the Eldrazi comments, a deck exponentially worse than Twin could ever dream of being; and the "deck diversity" comments, since the diversity of Tier 1 and Tier 2 decks now is nearly identical to that of 2015 (not to mention the several additional bans and new printings in between). But the crux of the comment lies on the connection between those nuked decks:
In Legacy, I have heard from several players that Terminus would have been ideal to nerf Miracles without killing it entirely. Time issues are only a concern in large events, something Legacy just doesn't have anymore (maybe 1 per year?). Most legacy is played online than in paper due to the prohibitive cost of playing in paper. If you durdle your time away Topping online, it's not a draw: you lose. The deck didn't need to be nuked, according to many who are intimately familiar with the format. From an outsiders perspective, I don't know what would be correct, but I definitely do not like seeing more decks nuked. For CopyCat, they probably could have banned Saheeli, so as to leave the value/blink deck in tact, and allow for wacky Panharmonicon or other combos to fill the gap. Maybe something could have survived and been rebuilt back up with the interactions they actually DID plan for (Guardian + Guardian + something else) or something else new ( Guardian + new Lili + something to take advantage). Instead, it was nuked.
So, three key decks nuked out of their respective formats because... why? Because Wizards didn't like them and they didn't care about nerfing them. They did not want them in the format and came up with any justification to rationalize nuking them instead of nerfing them.
PS: I hope all this writing is not for nothing and that you accept that you were wrong on this. Just open your mind and see what I am writing, that's all I am asking.
I guess I'm just extra salty, especially with regards to the Eldrazi comments, a deck exponentially worse than Twin could ever dream of being; and the "deck diversity" comments, since the diversity of Tier 1 and Tier 2 decks now is nearly identical to that of 2015 (not to mention the several additional bans and new printings in between). But the crux of the comment lies on the connection between those nuked decks:
In Legacy, I have heard from several players that Terminus would have been ideal to nerf Miracles without killing it entirely. Time issues are only a concern in large events, something Legacy just doesn't have anymore (maybe 1 per year?). Most legacy is played online than in paper due to the prohibitive cost of playing in paper. If you durdle your time away Topping online, it's not a draw: you lose. The deck didn't need to be nuked, according to many who are intimately familiar with the format. From an outsiders perspective, I don't know what would be correct, but I definitely do not like seeing more decks nuked. For CopyCat, they probably could have banned Saheeli, so as to leave the value/blink deck in tact, and allow for wacky Panharmonicon or other combos to fill the gap. Maybe something could have survived and been rebuilt back up with the interactions they actually DID plan for (Guardian + Guardian + something else) or something else new ( Guardian + new Lili + something to take advantage). Instead, it was nuked.
So, three key decks nuked out of their respective formats because... why? Because Wizards didn't like them and they didn't care about nerfing them. They did not want them in the format and came up with any justification to rationalize nuking them instead of nerfing them.
I think you are clearly wrong on this. Reasons? I explained some of them. Again.
Saheeli/Felidar is dead and even if they banned Saheeli the deck would be unplayable as well. It's a 2 card combo which you can't nerf.
About Top, the deck even with no Terminus, would be weaker but WOTC deemed that with Top legal it's possible a deck that has time issues will be Tier 1 again. It makes sense.
Splinter Twin was totally banned, but the rationale was that you could play Kiki-Jiki variants(even if this is hilarious), or other URx decks.
So, again, 3 decks nerfed out of the 15 total recent(or not) bans. Which means, 11-12/15 decks ONLY nerfed. So WOTC's usual tactics is to nerf a deck and not ban it.
The rest of the Saheeli deck morphed into a blink/ETB/value deck. It's hard to do that without a creature that blinks things. There should be nothing wrong with a deck receiving a ban and remaining Tier 1. Jund had this happen several times. And if WOTC seriously ever thought Kiki Jiki would legitimately be playable in the former Twin shell, then they know absolutely nothing about deck building or metagame ecosystems. And judging from the Future-Future-League, that's probably not too far off from reality (they are notoriously bad at predicting metas and building decks...). They seem woefully out of touch with the way things actually are and appear rely almost exclusively on the opinions of a few pros and collections from random MTGO data.
The answer is Thoughtseize is not an answer, it is resource destruction. It is preemptively used to remove the opponent's best card against you. Is Stone Rain a threat, an answer or something else? Unless the Stone Rain is used on a manland, it is something else.
You can play Thoughtseize as a preemptive answer, you can also play it to remove the opponent's answers, and to determine the contents of their hand. All for the low, low price of one mana of tempo loss and 2 life.
"Answers" are cards that interact with what your opponent is doing, so of course Thoughtseize and Stone Rain are answers. They are more proactive answers than counterspells and removal, but still answers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Splinter Twin wasn't nuked out of existence it's just that Wizards thought Kiki Jiki was going to be what Collected Company was to
Birthing Pod. The replacement was always there but ultimately wasn't good enough in today's Modern.
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
It's so scary that people believe this. Banning generic answers might be one of the worst possible ways to address longstanding Modern problems. Too many linear matchups? Too much matchup diversity? Too many "sideboard wars"? Not enough fair decks? A Thoughtseize ban makes every single one of those problems worse. Thankfully, I'm fairly confident Wizards knows what a horrendous idea this is and how much it would hurt the format. It doesn't even make historical sense given the performance of TS for years relative to the performance of DS. I bet it's not even on the table in their next meeting.
The thing is, the reason this is even a discussion at all is because Wizards went out of their way to say that Bauble and Wraith are not on the radar.
I remember this quote too, but can't find it right now. Someone mind dredging it up for me?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Splinter Twin wasn't nuked out of existence it's just that Wizards thought Kiki Jiki was going to be what Collected Company was to
Birthing Pod. The replacement was always there but ultimately wasn't good enough in today's Modern.
Among many other examples, their inability to see why Kiki Jiki versions are totally unplayable showcases exactly why they are experiencing many of the problems they are: They are terrible at deckbuilding and understanding metagames. This is terrifying when they are supposed to be in charge of making decisions which shape formats through bannings based on those decks and metagames.
I have been playing and not following along so much with articles and videos about Modern. I know its been a few years but has Aaron Foresythe come out and said they (being those in charge of the ban list) have changed their thinking toward JTMS, SFM, or GSZ? I mean he said they have a grave in Modern and if you want to play those cards there are other formats to play them. Has he (or anyone else form Wotc) come out and made any comments to think their thinking has changed?
I have been playing and not following along so much with articles and videos about Modern. I know its been a few years but has Aaron Foresythe come out and said they (being those in charge of the ban list) have changed their thinking toward JTMS, SFM, or GSZ? I mean he said they have a grave in Modern and if you want to play those cards there are other formats to play them. Has he (or anyone else form Wotc) come out and made any comments to think their thinking has changed?
Wizards of the Coast tends to be rather tight-lipped about such things. The only reason we even got the JTMS/SFM/GSZ quote from him was because someone was able to ask him personally about it. There was this comment from 2 months ago regarding Jace from Aaron Forsythe, though: https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/833870519862636544
I thought people were trolling at first but there seems to be pages of a genuine view that Thoughtseize is somehow destroying the format. I understand, and fully support, people wanting stronger blue cards en par with Thoughtseize but to seriously suggest weakening "Death's Shadow decks" by banning Seize is just being ignorant to all of Moderns' issues.
I think a few people have skimmed the last few pages. Most people were theorising on what happens if discard is less ubiquitous. (and let's face it, it is) The vast majority stated they were anti bans.
(plus it's a more interesting discussion topic than twin again)
Preordain would be nice, but I think we still have awhile before that card can come back under WOTC's terms. It would help control, sure, but most likely it would help out combo more. Being better at hitting land drops also means it's better at hitting combo pieces. And I think Serum Visions is still a perfectly fine cantrip. In some ways, I like it better.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
That's basically the sentiment I always hear from people who played Standard when SFM was legal and remember how oppressive it was in that format. Modern is not Cawblade-era Standard. You can't judge cards on what they did or do in other formats, you have to analyze how they would be in the context of Modern. A lot of people, myself included, have actually tested SFM, and the common consensus is that she's completely fine in terms of power level for Modern. She would certainly be good, but I would say the odds are very low that she would even be the best thing to do in Modern.
So, if you think about it a little, she's actually such an obvious candidate for unbanning.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
It'd become a problem if many decks started splashing for it, like treasure cruise started to see play in burn
Agreed, it's very well written. JTMS is never coming off the banned list, but otherwise, this is a very insightful article.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
It may surprise you to learn not everyone reads the articles you write within hours of them being posted.
Having read your article now, you did a good job fleshing out the points many people have been making in this thread.
If Deathshadow becomes any more dominant that it is, I believe the most likely (and best) thing Wizards could do for the format to help color diversity and tone down Deathshadow would be to ban Thoughtseize.
If Deathshadow becomes less dominant we'd have to see what the new metagame looks like.
If we have the status quo, I still think banning Thoughtseize achieves more of Wizards' goals less painfully and more elegantly than the risk associated with SFM or JTMS unbanning.
I think he's referring more to that you dismissed Stoneforge Mystic without giving any reasoning. You can't really say "obvious" without giving us your reasoning why it's "obvious."
In the current world of Death's Shadows, decks that have gobs of mana, and quick Combo decks, Stoneforge Mystic looks somewhat harmless. Is it a good card? Most definitely and you'd be hard pressed to not play it if you have White in your deck. Would it be the best thing to do in Modern right now? Most certainly not. Stoneforge Mystic IS a dangerous card, but I think that it's fine to let in it and be White's best Modern card (obviously moreso in decks splashing White).
*Personally, I think it's okay for Stoneforge Mystic to come off. I didn't always think this way. In fact, I had planned to run the Stoneforge Mystic "package" in Bloom Titan and in Tron just to PROVE how busted the card was. But those times were different. We have to remember that the original banlist had Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Sword of the Meek, and Ancestral Vision all banned while stuff like Rite of Flame wasn't banned. Modern has been handled pretty good, but there are and have definitely been problems or conflicting situations. You can have an 8/8 creature for B, but Stoneforge is unacceptable. Huh?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It's so scary that people believe this. Banning generic answers might be one of the worst possible ways to address longstanding Modern problems. Too many linear matchups? Too much matchup diversity? Too many "sideboard wars"? Not enough fair decks? A Thoughtseize ban makes every single one of those problems worse. Thankfully, I'm fairly confident Wizards knows what a horrendous idea this is and how much it would hurt the format. It doesn't even make historical sense given the performance of TS for years relative to the performance of DS. I bet it's not even on the table in their next meeting.
In all of Magic, here are the answer cards that are banned (for power level, ignore Chaos Orb/Falling Star):
Mental Misstep, Punishing Fire, Balance, Mana Drain.
There is one discard spell on the ban list: Mind Twist.
I'm curious to see how you feel that Thoughtseize matches up against Mental Misstep and Punishing Fire (the other answer cards that are on the banned list). I need some enlightenment here because I cannot see them being on the same power level whatsoever.
[[Edit: Cursed Scroll is also on the list. It's banned in Tempest Block. Technically you could consider at an "answer" card for the sake of the argument in the same vein as a card like Punishing Fire]]
The thing is, the reason this is even a discussion at all is because Wizards went out of their way to say that Bauble and Wraith are not on the radar. And so if something were hypothetically banned from Death's Shadow, what is it? Traverse only hits Jund variants, there's no real specific card in Grixis variants that make it super powerful, and the only real overlap besides Shadow itself are general spells like discard and K command. So if they needed to ban something from Death's Shadow, based on their own comments, it would have to be one of those general spells or Shadow itself. Given their recent string of nuking decks out of existence, I would not be surprised to see them swing the hammer at Shadow itself. But let's remember the only reason we're even having this conversation to begin with is because of WOTC's strange choices and awkward communication. Either they make completely vague statements that tell us nothing, or they leave ambiguous bread crumbs that seem only point to WORSE things. Between their R&D blunders and some of their very strange B&R choices over the past two years... they just look like a hot mess that nobody can predict. Maybe that's what they want? Regardless, it's hard to point the blame for this banmania on anyone but Wizards themselves.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
To see what happens when a lack of general answers exists they simply have to look at Standard.
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
It's certainly better than Punishing Fire, that card seems to be overrated by many, it's a slow grindy combo similar to Sword of the Meek that was too good a long time ago.
Not saying that Thoughtseize should be banned, but that Punishing Fire isn't as broken as some people think it is.
The answer is Thoughtseize is not an answer, it is resource destruction. It is preemptively used to remove the opponent's best card against you. Is Stone Rain a threat, an answer or something else? Unless the Stone Rain is used on a manland, it is something else.
You can play Thoughtseize as a preemptive answer, you can also play it to remove the opponent's answers, and to determine the contents of their hand. All for the low, low price of one mana of tempo loss and 2 life.
I guess I'm just extra salty, especially with regards to the Eldrazi comments, a deck exponentially worse than Twin could ever dream of being; and the "deck diversity" comments, since the diversity of Tier 1 and Tier 2 decks now is nearly identical to that of 2015 (not to mention the several additional bans and new printings in between). But the crux of the comment lies on the connection between those nuked decks:
In Legacy, I have heard from several players that Terminus would have been ideal to nerf Miracles without killing it entirely. Time issues are only a concern in large events, something Legacy just doesn't have anymore (maybe 1 per year?). Most legacy is played online than in paper due to the prohibitive cost of playing in paper. If you durdle your time away Topping online, it's not a draw: you lose. The deck didn't need to be nuked, according to many who are intimately familiar with the format. From an outsiders perspective, I don't know what would be correct, but I definitely do not like seeing more decks nuked. For CopyCat, they probably could have banned Saheeli, so as to leave the value/blink deck in tact, and allow for wacky Panharmonicon or other combos to fill the gap. Maybe something could have survived and been rebuilt back up with the interactions they actually DID plan for (Guardian + Guardian + something else) or something else new ( Guardian + new Lili + something to take advantage). Instead, it was nuked.
So, three key decks nuked out of their respective formats because... why? Because Wizards didn't like them and they didn't care about nerfing them. They did not want them in the format and came up with any justification to rationalize nuking them instead of nerfing them.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The rest of the Saheeli deck morphed into a blink/ETB/value deck. It's hard to do that without a creature that blinks things. There should be nothing wrong with a deck receiving a ban and remaining Tier 1. Jund had this happen several times. And if WOTC seriously ever thought Kiki Jiki would legitimately be playable in the former Twin shell, then they know absolutely nothing about deck building or metagame ecosystems. And judging from the Future-Future-League, that's probably not too far off from reality (they are notoriously bad at predicting metas and building decks...). They seem woefully out of touch with the way things actually are and appear rely almost exclusively on the opinions of a few pros and collections from random MTGO data.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
"Answers" are cards that interact with what your opponent is doing, so of course Thoughtseize and Stone Rain are answers. They are more proactive answers than counterspells and removal, but still answers.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Birthing Pod. The replacement was always there but ultimately wasn't good enough in today's Modern.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I have been playing and not following along so much with articles and videos about Modern. I know its been a few years but has Aaron Foresythe come out and said they (being those in charge of the ban list) have changed their thinking toward JTMS, SFM, or GSZ? I mean he said they have a grave in Modern and if you want to play those cards there are other formats to play them. Has he (or anyone else form Wotc) come out and made any comments to think their thinking has changed?
Wizards of the Coast tends to be rather tight-lipped about such things. The only reason we even got the JTMS/SFM/GSZ quote from him was because someone was able to ask him personally about it. There was this comment from 2 months ago regarding Jace from Aaron Forsythe, though:
https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/833870519862636544
I think a few people have skimmed the last few pages. Most people were theorising on what happens if discard is less ubiquitous. (and let's face it, it is) The vast majority stated they were anti bans.
(plus it's a more interesting discussion topic than twin again)
Mr.Forsythe also thought Sword of the Meek would be too obnoxious in Lantern control.
some facts about the card:
>it was never overpowered when it was legal in Modern
>the Gitaxian Probe ban was a significant nerf to the potential of the card should it become legal
>it was problematic in Legacy because blue was already the best color and it just pushed it over the top, the same can't be said about Modern
>unlike Preordain it wouldn't be an auto include in fast combo decks and would mainly go into slower decks similar to Jace, the Mind Sculptor
>unlike Jace, the Mind Sculptor it's not an expensive card and would be much less problematic to reban